🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦 A lot of people are studying the Early Church Fathers and converting from Protestantism to Christianity.

Another excellent video. (I'm your resident ex-Mormon, now Catholic.) I have a few nuances I want to point out, but overall this video was extremely well done. First, the LDS belief does not require that God lived on another planet in _this_ universe. In fact, due to a lot of scriptural language making it clear that God is the creator of "all things," many LDS believe that God the Father is the creator and God of this entire universe, and that he lived his own mortal life in a different universe. It's a sort of parallel universe theory that doesn't actually solve any of the philosophical issues, but certainly _feels_ better because we're no longer thinking that God lives on a planet somewhere in space. (The Book of Abraham does use this kind of language, but it's easy to understand it metaphorically.) Second, there is a new strain of LDS theology which is beginning to question nearly all of this. It understands many of the LDS scriptures metaphorically, rejects some of the later non-canonized teachings of Joseph Smith (such as the King Follett discourse), and is much closer to the Christian idea of theosis. I haven't seen a full treatment of it in print, but I've encountered it several times in dialogues with LDS members. Third, I think you missed some nuance regarding the LDS doctrine of spiritual creation. LDS believe that we were all spiritually "born" of God the Father and a heavenly mother (I say "a" heavenly mother, because it's possible (likely?) in the LDS view that God the Father has multiple wives, so we may not all share one heavenly mother.) How this works is never defined. But there is something sexual about it (in the sense of male and female propagation), and it is through this process that the eternally-existent "intelligence" turns into a "spirit child." So when you said that God simply "organizes" our soul, that isn't quite the view: LDS believe we are spiritual children in some "literal" sense. This explains, of course, the teaching that faithful LDS will continue this process eternally, where men will, with their wife/wives, eternally beget spirit children of their own and populate other worlds.

The irony of Mormons critiquing that Christianity had a great apostatic corruption by the Greek pagans is that their teachings much more closely resemble ancient paganism than anything Christian.

This video is wild, and got wilder by the minute.

this is by far the most fair and charitable approach to Mormonism. good series!

One of the things that got me out of Mormonism was realizing that the god of Mormonism is not worthy of worship.

Ooooh this is going to be interesting! I really hope your channel continues to grow because it's one of my top 5 KZfaq channels!

This is a very underrated channel

Catholic Church was established by Jesus in Matt 16. Mormon Church was established by a conman with a charge sheet as long as his arm.

For some reason, it would seem to me that some of the Free Masonry that Joseph Smith learned has crept into his new religion. The level of exaltation of man and lowering of God, seems right up the alley of masonry.

A little off topic, but I noticed that the closed captioning translation of your intro sentence is written as, "Welcome to Shameless Potpourri." Maybe you could offer that as merch.

Praise the Lord!

@Shameless Popery Podcast After you finish your videos about LDS/Mormon, would you consider doing the same thing with Jehovah Witnesses, or ‘Orthodox’ Judaism? It would be a huge personal favor, and I’m sure would also help others given what JW’s are usually told about Catholic Christianity. Would be great. Thanks for the videos!

Great video, Joe! I eagerly await you getting your books, especially The Early Church was the Catholic Church, on Audible.

Thank you so much for doing this series This has lined up perfectly with my undertaking of talking to mormon friends and local missionaries and has given me a lot of great information God bless you and please pray for the conversion of the mormons LDS culture is very wholesome and has a lot of good in it, if the mormons convert to catholic we would have a real powerhouse in america

I have long called Mormonism America's Islam

Mormons used to say they were not Christians. Claiming that they are Christians is relatively recent.

Even when they talk about omnipotence, omniscience, etc, they're just stealing the phrases from Christianity without meaning them.

Thank you for wading through all the confusing and disturbing beliefs on our behalf. If its hard to hear you speak, it must be very difficult (spiritually) to read through this religions beliefs. May our Lord be your strength and guard, and fill you with His peace. Please can you tell us what the Mormons believe about the creation of Africans/ Black people.

Is it next week yet? Anybody have a time machine I can borrow? 😊 Counting down the hours till next Thursday. Thank you sir.

One interesting thing is that Brigham Young referred to Mary as "the Virgin Mary" but taught that she conceived of the Father and not the Holy Spirit, and that the "Tabernacle" (term he is using for material bodies) was concieved in the same manner as Cain and Abel. So what does he actually mean by "Virgin"? (He says this the same passage as teaching that Adam is God. He says of Adam: "He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do," so there's definitely a lot going on here.) - Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 46-53.

Sof if they consider that the Bible is wrong or riddled with errors because of its various translations, does that apply to the 115 Book of Mormon translations as well?

It would be a great benefit to hear you speak on Praying to Mary and Praying to Saints. Your video on Mary’s perpetual virginity convicted me.

As an LDS, i appreciate your approach @shamelesspopery. You really seem to make an effort to represent LDS in words we would use of ourselves. Still a lot to discuss, as we would make our argument differently in places.

Joeseph is it possible or would you consider adding 10-20 minute edited versions or shorter teaser videos as I share episodes but friends first timers initially don’t make the commitment to your genius. Prayers for your continued success and good health

Interesting take

Joe, thank you for this series. I hope you'll continue it and I hope you'll do an examination of Jehovah's Witnesses as well. I have a family member who is in dialogue with a JW. I have a vague knowledge of their beliefs, but your research and analysis would be very helpful.

The "as far as it is translated correctly" means exactly what you said. That as time went on as translations occured errors occured 😊

I can’t find the essay you are referring to. Does someone have a link to that?

A Trent Horn sighting in the wild!

I know someone who just left LDS because of the excessive tithing. Her husband is still in, and tithes his portion of the household income. Awkward!

Lot of similarities between LDS and Islam… makes you wonder if it was the same demon that deceived both Mohammed and Joseph

Active LDS here. Would love to come on your channel to discuss sometime. Interested? How can I get in touch with you?

When i was a child, i asked a passing question about whether or not a heavenly mother existed because there's a heavenly father. I was expecting the answer to be no simply because I've never heard of such a thing, but the Elder said yes, there was, and then never elaborated on that or what that means. I left nearly nine years ago, and i still have next to no clue about it other than the fact I somehow stumbled into Esoteric Mormonism as a first grader. 💀

In relation to Brigham Young, not everything uttered or written by a leader of the church is doctrine, just like not everything the Pope says is doctrine. If we're going to talk about the failings of LDS prophets, let's also talk about the failings of some historic popes. I would argue that Brigham Young's failings are harmless compared to some of the actions of some of the popes. As far as the virgin birth, I believe God used some kind of artificial insemination. How do Catholics believe the miracle happened?

A few points of refutation from a Latter-day Saint. First, I feel your videos are a lot better than how most people treat us, so thank you. You actually argue doctrinal points rather than ranting about cults. Joseph did leave a successor, multiple in fact. It was supposed to be the assistant president of the Church, Hyrum Smith, but he was killed along with his brother Joseph. The 12 Apostles were also given the priesthood keys to run the Church, and they did. There was little disputation about that besides a few small groups, most of which dwindled rapidly. We consider the Joseph Smith Translation accurate, but didn’t have access to it. Most of it is grammatical changes to update it to modern English. Not too many new doctrines or revelations, but a few. You consider us non-Christian due to our disbelief in the Trinity and that God has a body. I argue that the Trinity was a later invention that came about by theological debate and concessions and isn’t entirely consistent with the teachings from the Bible. It is perfectly logical for a rational person to read the Bible and come to a conclusion that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings. Why should that invalidate them from being a Christian? Also, Jesus was born with a body and then was resurrected and took his physical body back. Why did He do this only to get rid of it again? Why did God give us bodies? What is the importance of that if they are for nothing in the end. Is it really so unreasonable for someone to conclude based on this evidence that bodies are important and Jesus and God have bodies? Should that invalidate you from being Christian? Creation ex-nihilio is a Greek idea that crept into Christendom. It creates many questions that atheist have rightly pointed out and I feel LDS theology answers. If God was perfect by Himself, why did He need to create anything? What is the purpose of our existence? Why didn’t he prevent the fall? What do we need to learn from our existence with mortal bodies on Earth? What is the point of our existence in Heaven afterwards? What will we be doing for eternity? If we are just an extension of God’s will, do we really have agency outside of Him? If God is above all things ,can he make impossible things possible,and if not are you acknowledging that he is bound by laws of reality and the universe? And if so, are you acknowledging that God is a natural being that can potentially be understood by mankind? The Book of Mormon stating Jesus was born ”at” Jerusalem is evidence for the veracity of that Book. Everyone knows Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem, about 5 miles outside of Jerusalem, even Joseph. However, we now know that the land surrounding Jerusalem was called the land of Jerusalem. It is even supported by scripture. 2 Kings 14:19-20 where a man was buried “at Jerusalem … in [Bethlehem].” How did Joseph know he could put this in there and get away with it? Latter-day Saint doctrine is unique from other Christian faiths to be sure, but that is because we didn’t adopt many of the false teachings of man that crept in due to Greek and Roman philosophical ideas. We are restored to what the teachings should have been. I find our teachings to be consistent with Biblical teachings, many of which were lost.

You mentioned LDS believe the Holy Spirit does not have a body but is divine in passing but this is actually the best way to show Mormons the Christian view of God is logically necessary and their gods are not gods at all. The Holy Spirit can be omnipresent because he is sans body so in this way having a body puts limits on the Mormon gods. Their embodied gods cannot be omnipotent or omniscient if they are not omnipresent and therefore are no gods at all, just bodies moving within time and space. So the Mormon belief in the Holy Spirit is the closest they get to the Christian view of God.

There is a such thing as conditional baptism. When uncertain whether or not the first baptism was valid, the words of the rite are slightly altered to say, “I conditionally baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” This solution neither confirms nor denies the original baptism, but it does ensure the individual has been validly baptized. Considering this is a salvation issue, certainty is better than being eternally sorry.

I am very interested in what the LDS believe because I have family that joined the Mormon church

Sounds like a fallen angel story, like whatever spoke to Smith was a Watcher impersonating God

The JD 6:1-11 description reminds me of the devil tempting Eve ... ideas that allow one to think 'You too can become equal to God'. Its clear what sort of 'spirit' he has opened himself up to ... and with his own agenda ... its swallowed hook, line, and sinker ... even the cane pole!

I have a Question about baptism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will baptize any member joining our church regardless of whether they have been baptized previously because we do not believe that the person doing the baptism for the other church had the authority of God to do so From what I understand Catholics also believe in priesthood Authority. So why do they not follow that same understanding that these other churches didn't have the priesthood authority to do the baptisms?

It was mentioned that the LDS have books that "we" don't have in our Bible. I'm assuming you're referring to "Catholics"🤔 Because Catholics also have books (the Apocrapha), which isn't in the original completed Bible. That's sorta "expanded also".

The Latter-Day Saints are generally good and devoted people, whom many Catholics could do well to emulate in their zeal and spirit of sacrifice, in their concern to build loving Christian communities, and in their positive approach towards family values and the sanctity of life. Nevertheless, LDS “gospel” is a sad travesty of the true gospel of Jesus Christ who did not break his promise to be with us until the end of the age. The Church has been with us for 2,000 years and it didn’t need to be restored by Joseph Smith or any other false prophet.

I'd also like to add, how in the world do you explain in Psalms where it says we are all gods. Or Christ when he says that you will be able to do greater things than I have shown you. If Christ is God the Father, what is he talking about when he says that you can be greater than me?. That's been a bigger rub than almost anything you should be having your income dependent on preaching the gospel.

Then why does mormons 7:7 says father ,son and holy ghost are one,doesn't say one in purpose

Kenneth Copeland also believes God is an emodied being. He sneaks in some interesting theology into his sermons.

Many Calvinists are tritheists. To his credit James White admitted his error in trinitarian theology and changed

The Catholic Church teaches that God is a trinity. But, is that teaching true? If it is, where in the Bible does it say that... 1. the Godhead is triune? 2. "we worship one God in trinity"? 3. God consists of God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy spirit? 4. the Father, Son, and holy spirit are the same "One God"? 5. the Father, Son, and holy spirit are one in substance, nature, and essence?

Satan has woven a lot of partial truths and Christian words into Mormonism. On the surface, as you have explained, there is a lot about Mormonism that sounds very Christian. But when you start digging you see just how different Mormon theology is from Christian theology. Different God, different theology, different scriptures, different afterlife, etc, etc, etc.

My best friend was baptized as an infant in the catholic church. He fell away very young and his family just went to mass out of routine until it wasnt convenient anymore. Anyway many years have passed and hes finally read scripture and his wife is taking him to a non denominational (baptist) church. Anyway theyre trying to convince him to get baptized again. Convince him that the first one didnt matter because he didnt profess faith as an infant. Im doing my best to hold my tongue but i wonder if i should talk to him. His wife would certainly see it as me trying to keep him from having a proper baptism while i see it as blaspheming the one he already had. I havent said anything because its he's literally just discovering his faith and i believe god will have mercy on him either way but still. I tried to send him an article about the anabaptists but he wasnt too interested. Just not the biggest fan of history i guess.

Hectic! Blessed to be Catholic.

What if a Mormon believes in the Trinity rather than the LDS Godhead?

How are Calvinist’s considered Christians but LDS isn’t… crazy talk

it's nice to know that Jesus is married and is God the Father to his spiritual children, and sent his son to their planet where the "Son of God" is teaching them about "his Father in Heaven".....because that's what he saw his Father do, as well. So simple, so true. This has been going on for all eternity. Jesus glorified his Father (the only begotten in the flesh, BTW) and received all that the Father has. This is how it works before & beyond the veil. If this is not true, then we have the status quo: anyone can pick up the Bible and sppout their own version of God, as there are millions of versions of God out there. I'll keep mine, thank you.

Let's talk about BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE TRINITY. First, in order for you to understand the Biblical evidence for the TRINITY, you must first stop trying to "put God in a box..." God's Divine existence is BEYOND human understanding and the physical limitations of this world. Let's hear what God Himself says about this in: I TIMOTHY 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: A. God was manifested in the flesh, B. Justified in the Spirit, C. Seen by angels, D. Preached among the Gentiles, E. Believed on in the world, F. Received up in glory. Notice the following: "God was manifested in the flesh..." while on earth God did all the things Jesus did as stated above., "Great is the mystery of godliness..." God is God, powerful and capable of doing miracles that is beyond human understanding and the physical limitations of this world. Next, let's go to: ISAIAH 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; Thete is no God besides Me..." (Mormons, this verse is for you, you cannot be a god) Keep this verse in mind, because we are going to circle back to this in a little bit. We are going to show the Divine identity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. GOD: We have God identifying Himself to Moses in: EXODUS 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." We have God identifying Himself as the "I AM." JOHN 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." We have God identified as the "Word." JESUS: We have Jesus identifying Himself in: JOHN 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." We have Jesus identifying Himself as the "I AM" the same title God used in Exodus 3:14. JOHN 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." We have Jesus identified as the "Word" the same title God used in John 1:1. I TIMOTHY 3:16 "...God was manifested in the flesh..." HOLY SPIRIT: We have Peter talking to Ananias in: ACTS 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (Jahovah Witnesses, notice that he said that you are lying to the Holy Spirit) and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." We have the Holy Spirit recognized as being God. We have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, all recognized as being God! Let's circle back to ISAIAH 45:5, where it says: "There is no God besides Me..." with this verse, and all the other Bible verses Oneness, Jahovah Witnesses, and Mormons use to oppose the Trinity, we either have complete Kaos here with this contradiction, or, since God says that He is "not the author of confusion..." (I Corinthians 14:33). We can confidently conclude that the only explanation to untangle this contradiction is: "TRINITY" But wait, there's more Biblical evidence for the TRINITY, let's go to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are going to show God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all at the Resurrection of Jesus. GOD: We have God raising Jesus from the dead. *Acts 3:26 *I THESSALONIANS 1:10 *Acts 17:31 JESUS: We have Jesus raising Himself from the dead. *John 2:19-21 HOLY SPIRIT: We have the Holy Spirit raising Jesus from the dead. *Romans 8:11 We have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all at the Resurrection raising Jesus from the dead! Amen... There you are Oneness, Jahovah Witnesses, and Mormons BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE TRINITY. TRINITY 3= 1 GOD.

We have got to convert these mormons.....I lost it when they denied the virgin birth!!! Are you kidding me!!!

Orthodox Protestantism ??

Same with mary like the muslims who went against the trinity's of mary included. She is queen of heaven co reigning with christ

mormon = islam 2.0

It's true, "Mormons" believe in three, distinct personages which comprise the "Godhead," for God is not a name, but an office . This is not in any way, anti-biblical. On the contrary, Trinitariianism is the anti-biblical proposition, being purely a plroduct of the 4th century Catholic Church and her ecumenical councils. BTW, believing in more than one god does not, in and of itself, constitute paganism, for we worship and pray only to one God and that is the Father. We pray in the name of the Son, just as Jesus did and as Jesus taught us to do. (Our Father which art in heaven...) Yes, we believe in an open canon, since God is not dead, nor doth He sleep. Babtism? Absolutely, just not infant babtism, or babyism by sprinkling (can't find those two things in the Bible either).

Well, what is scripture? Define scripture.

The only reason I can think of is that the LDS church members get upset for not being included in the Christian Club is that our definition of Christian is: one who believes in Christ And we do believe in Christ! We just have a different idea of his beingness 😊

This mealy mouthiness is why I don't watch Catholic Answers. Baptists merely consider Baptism as symbolic and NOT for the forgiveness of sins. They disavow the baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Yes, Baptism is what makes a person a Christian. Believe and be baptized. Do they accept the creed? No. Do they accept the One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins? No. Therefore, Baptists are technically not Christians either.

both claims are false.

The trinity is the Father and the son Jesus christ are 2 seperate people with a body of flesh and bones in Genisus in the bible it sais God made man in the image of God and the Holy Spirit has just a body of spirit the 3 are one in purpose and work together Joseph Smith seen them John ch 3 vs 16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son we needed a prophet in our time to explain this to us moslems don't believe this but we respect all religions on the News in Australia a Muslim boy stabbed an Anglican priest the boy said he did it because the priest was mocking his prophet and it hurts the latterday saints article of faith sais We believe in worshiping Almighty God to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men to do the same let them worship how where and what they may

You also need to look at the matrix by which the Catholics believe in the trinity. Within that Matrix you'll find three gods. The father is not the son, the son is not the Holy Spirit, the holy spirit is not the father, they are three dots doing one purpose. It's a Long Way Around The Barn infection by the third-rate priest tertullian

I find myself wanting to comment on every single point that you're making. We do not believe anything at all close to what you're describing about God or the Virgin birth! I beg you!!!! PLEASE find a Mormon have them come on your show have a conversation with this person!!!! How your characterizing what we believe is not close to it at all, especially the whole Mary stuff. we do not believe that God came down in Zeus style to impregnate Mary. She had a virgin birth. She bacame pregnant when the Holy Spirit came upon her as described in the Bible! Please! Stop strawmanning what we believe TALK to an ACTUAL believer. Ask them questions! We are more then willing to answer! We have young men and women out doing just that for 2 yrs of their late teens early adulthood!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

A few notes: Mormonism and the Bible: Our problem is less with the translation of the Bible, or even really with the text of the Bible itself, rather our problem is with transmission. We don’t think that the autobiographical writings of the prophets are perfectly represented by the Bible, the Bible is a third hand account of the scriptures. The Old Testament being a reconstructed compilation written by post-exilic scribes operating under the theological reforms of King Josiah (which reforms moved away from true doctrine in my opinion). I think the documentary hypostasis showcases some of the inherent problems that brings quite well: m.kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rc9hqdiorNSvqH0.html Furthermore, we don’t even think the Book of Mormon is inerrant. In fact the title page of the Book of Mormon (written by Moroni) says as much. And this because we believe mortal men are inherently fallible. All this despite the fact that the Gold Plates were written, compiled, and translated by inspired prophets every step of the way, and were transmitted a absolute minimal number of times: Events experienced first hand by prophets -> events recalled and written about by the hand of those same prophets autobiographically (though they were foremost written poetically) -> writings compiled, abridged, and commentated upon by another prophet centuries later -> dictated by Joseph Smith as he translated by the gift and power of God -> recorded without punctuation by Joseph Smith’s scribe -> copied with added punctuation for print. That’s only six stages, aided by inspiration at every stage except the last one or two. Despite this, we’ve found numerous scribal and copyist errors from those last two stages that have been corrected in subsequent editions. In fact, Joseph Smith himself corrected most such errors and offered several clarifications resulting in the 1836 and ‘42 editions of the Book of Mormon. We’ve also found a sparse few errors and artistic choices attributable to the stages prior Joseph Smith’s translation, but those ones we maintain for the record. If so many errors can pop up in so few transmissions, then the Bible really has no chance of reflecting the writings of prophets that we cannot yet prove even existed historically. The Hebrew Bible we have now is likely very close the original editions of the Old Testament produced post-exile, however the idea that these accurately preserve pre-exotic writings is unlikely.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

We Catholics do believe God (the second person of the Trinity) has a body. Jesus the incarnate God-Man ascended into a place called Heaven and still retains his glorified physical human nature. The uncreated Divine Essence, which exists from before the creation of Heaven, does not have a body. So this is the disagreement - Mormons don’t believe in an uncreated Creator. They blend the “unseen realm” and divinity. They believe Creation itself is eternal and that Godhood arises from this eternal matter/intelligence.

Good job of twisting other people's beliefs to make them look false. I don't think Christ would have twisted other people's beliefs to give inaccurate views. If people stop it with these kinds of misrepresentations then we can all come closer to the unity of the faith that Christ and His apostles talked about. If you have no interest in coming to the unity of the faith then you have no interest in Christianity.

Um don't need to watch the video. Very easy answer on "What do Mormons Believe About the Trinity" We members of the church of Jesus Christ believe nothing about the Trinity. It's not our God I'm not sure where that name Came from or where or what the cloud is, if it's a he or a she or even how to love it. We're a hard pass on the Trinity. We believe in Jesus Christ, the Jehovah of the OT. He is the Son of Our Father in heaven, the real father in Heaven The father of all the spirits of the world. Yes he's a He not and It. He's got a wife for sure, Now do we have any Idea how spirts are created, no. But the Scriptures are clear, we're Children of a loving, real God. If God was a cloud that shape shifted and talked to himself, I'd have no interest in worshiping him and and have not Idea what it's image is and have not desire to grow to be anything like an it.

As a Latter-day Saint, here’s my take on the trinity: For context, I believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity. I like to think of the Godhead like an actor and his two understudies all portraying Hamlet. There is only one character named Hamlet, and as far as the play is concerned, all three actors are the one true Hamlet. Their words and deeds are always the same. You could almost even say they are practically three beings as one person. God is much the same way: there is One True God, and that God is the Father. Jesus and the Holy Ghost stand in the place of God, representing him, so you can also say that they are God too. Now the trinity is the inverse of this. It says God is three persons in one being. Like Gollum and Smeagol, multiple personalities sharing a body; three who’s but one what. But the idea of the trinity almost immediately breaks down when you get specific or try to explain scripture. Beyond that, this usage of persons and beings in no way corresponds to anything we can observe in reality. Being a human being is what makes you a specific person. As trinitarians use them today, the words “person” and “being” are nonsense terms with no concrete line between them, and if you press a trinitarian, they often cannot define the terms beyond what I’ve already said. Ultimately, I’ve found they will cop out and appeal to what Aquinas said: it’s a mystery beyond human comprehension, and that you cannot say what God is, only what he isn’t. This goes against scripture which says that we can clearly understand the Godhead through observation of the reality around us (Romans 1:19-20). So the trinity, this concept that doesn’t correspond to any aspect of rational reality and is beyond human comprehension, is disqualified by scripture. Now even if we grant the idea that the nature of God is beyond us mere mortals, the trinity still doesn’t hold up. Pay close attention. There is a very important difference between something being beyond our comprehension because it is beyond our capacity, versus being incomprehensible because it goes against rationality. I can’t comprehend the 4th dimension because it’s beyond my capacity, but I can still approach it by extrapolating from the principles of the first three dimensions using math and logic (which is in line with Romans 1:19-20). However, a married bachelor is incomprehensible for an entirely different reason. I fully understand the component parts of marriage and bachelors, I just can’t reconcile the contradiction because it goes against rationality. There is nothing wrong with saying that God is beyond us in the first sense. I have no problem with someone claiming God is a 4th dimensional being. But God cannot be incomprehensible in the second sense because God is the fountainhead of rationality, if he, the source of logic, were to embody the illogical, he would be a God of confusion and a house divided against itself, which cannot stand. (Matthew 12:25, 1 Cor. 14:33) So how did rational people arrive at this irrational idea? Well let’s look at the original words used to describe the trinity. The technical terms for three persons in one being is three hypostases of one Ousia. And the idea of three persons sharing one substance is called Homoousia. Where do Christians get these ideas from? They’ll tell you it’s from the Bible, but the terms trinity, homoousia, etc. do not appear in the Bible. Rather, the trinity can objectively be shown to derive from Greek philosophy, and not early Judeo-Christian theology. The God of the Trinity is much closer to the immaterial unmoved mover believed by Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who called his followers “those who wrestle with God.” The terms hypostasis and ousia are terms prominent in the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle. In fact, Plato says that the Platonic forms of platonism are the definition of ousia/essence. And hypostasis meant the underlying substance of things. Literally Hypo=under + stasis=station/stance, so hypostasis is a direct one-to-one translation of sub-stance. Meaning that when you say God is three hypostases/persons in one ousia/being, you are actually literally saying that God is three substances of one platonic form, which is ironically actually closer to the doctrine of the Godhead that I’ve been promoting, which is that God is three separate beings, all acting as the united person/character/blueprint of God. So the early Christians, who did not believe in the modern trinity, tried to use the contemporary philosophical language of their day to describe God the way I am describing him, but that doctrine of the Godhead was obscured by the influence of the philosophies of men corrupting the original doctrine over the centuries. (Colossians 2:8-10) In fact, I can prove that the term Hypostasis used to refer to the substance of God, rather than the person, in the context of the trinity. In the original text of the Nicene creed (which invented the trinity) it says that “anyone who claims Christ is a separate hypostasis from the Father is made anathema.” Meaning that according to the original formulation, the modern rendering of the trinity as three hypostases/persons in one ousia/being, is wrong. It was only later on that hypostasis came to mean person instead of substance, and the trinity got inverted into what we have today. If the history doesn’t convince you, then I will show how the trinity re-defines the clear meaning of the words of scripture. I challenge anyone to show me any passage in scripture that teaches homoousia-the idea that God is one in substance-that could not very easily be understood to mean that God is one in will and purpose instead. On the other hand, I can point to several passages that not only make it clear that God is one in purpose, but also preclude the idea that he is one in substance. John 17:20-23 shows that all believers can become ONE with Jesus and the Father IN THE SAME MANNER as they are one with EACH OTHER. Romans 8:16-17 says much the same thing by calling us joint-heirs with Christ glorified together. How can Jesus be an heir of the Father if they are the same being, what could Jesus inherit from the Father that he doesn’t already have? And how could we also be heirs to that type of oneness? Furthermore, how can Jesus be begotten by the Father if he is the Father: can a man conceive himself? The baptism of Jesus also shows all three persons in different places and forms. Jesus in the water, the Holy Spirit as a dove, and the Father is heaven. The same thing happens again at Stephen’s martyrdom. The scripture itself supports the Godhead over the Trinity.

lds and rcc both add to the bible.

Mormons think Jesus is an angel

The LDS church is true

I can’t find the essay you are referring to. Does someone have a link to that?