True aaaaaaaaaaaand... Yeah, that's pretty true. That's true and- yeah that's true. That's true. That's true- That's pretty true. That's pretty true, I mean- ... That's true. Yeah. That's true. Uhm- That's true. That's fuckin' true.

there's an interview someone did with her (because of course lmao) that mentioned she mostly played mortal kombat, and the moment you view it from that lens this entire thread makes so much more sense. like if i only ever played the games where your sole visual cue for hitting someone in the air is their mocap model levitating five inches higher, i'd think all fighting games played like shit too

The longest scrubquote of all time.

5:36 No one is actually good at math, they just memorize all the equations and the correct order.

My favorite part is when she said if you know every down B you should seek therapy for the sake of the 9 year old target audience And then in a later tweet she suggests playing competitive pokemon instead

I feel called out by the "can you name every down b" because honestly, I probably can.

It's funny that she goes and trashes Smash when it arguably solves a decent amount of her annoyed points

Mika didn't understand the fundamental idea behind fighting games. Fighting games are hard to learn not because they are difficult or categorically bad or require grinding, but because they are fundamentally rock paper scissors and newcomers play them like tag. Let's say you were playing rock paper scissors with a friend named Bob, and your friend Carl has never played before. He asks to play, so you tell him these rules: "We say 'rock, paper, scissors, shoot!', and once we say 'shoot' you put out your hand as 'rock', 'paper', or 'scissors'", and you show him the hand formations for each. So you demonstrate for Carl by playing a quick game with Bob. "Rock, paper, scissors, shoot!". You play rock, Bob plays scissors. You bop Bob's hand and say "I win!" Now it's Carl's turn. "Rock, paper, scissors, shoot!". You play paper, Carl plays rock. Carl bops your hand and says "I win!" But, no, he didn't win. You tell him he lost. Now Carl is confused. When you picked rock and bopped Bob's hand, Bob lost. How did Carl lose when he did the same thing? You explain to him that he needs to pick scissors in order to beat paper. So, next round, Carl picks scissors, but you pick rock and win. Now Carl is confused even further; why would he pick scissors when you're just going to pick rock and win? He can't win by picking rock, he can't win by picking scissors, yet he sees you and Bob go back and forth trading wins as if there's some fourth dimension to the game he can't understand. Carl gets frustrated and stops playing rock paper scissors. Let's put this into the perspective of learning a fighting game. Carl walks up to you and Bob playing a fighting game. He sees you hit Bob, Bob's health goes down, and when Bob's health hits 0 you win. Carl (naturally) thinks "I have to hit him until his health hits 0, then I win." Yet even after Carl learns the controls, he can't land a single hit on you because he is predictable as hell. Carl doesn't understand the invisible game of rock paper scissors that every fighting game player has to learn, but no game ever teaches you. That's what happened to Mika. She didn't understand that fighting games are *not* "What's the best way to hit my opponent", but rather gaining an understanding of your opponent so that, *through that understanding*, you can hit them.

Mika forgot to equip the reverse controls immunity spirit when her inputs weren’t working.

Try walking and punching at the same time in real life and see how little force you exert without your feet planted as an anchor.

Oh I get it, Mika doesn’t know what quarter circle forward does.

"Punch and move at the same time" Arcsys designing Sol fs: hmmmmm

i like how she brings racing games in and she's wrong about them too

The point of a large character roster isn't for one to play all, but for all to play one. The more characters, the more likely someone is to find a character they love playing.

The movement in fighting games is designed FOR fighting games. The stiffer movements makes precise spacing easier allowing both players to focus on the FIGHTING. Because the games don't have complicated environments they can afford to make this sacrifice

So she's arguing that fighting game casts are diverse to the point where you can't switch your character without the game being unplayable, but also that all fighting game characters are not diverse enough and that's why alien was lame? This argument is categorically unfixable. Games are art and not all art is for everyone. I'm not gonna say [insert best horror movie] is a bad movie because it's too scary and excludes jumpy neurotics like me. No. I am unequipped to handle horror movies and that's okay. Why do people do this with games? Some games can be and some games can't and that's okay.

There's four levels of knowing smash character down b's. The first is not knowing them. The next is knowing them when given a list of characters. The next is being able to name them without even being given a list of characters. The final level is for maximum virginity; knowing hero's down b menu.

I had to check the Twitch VOD to see some of the *ahem* EDITORIAL DECISIONS made for this video, and I have to say: excellent work!!

As a Ganondorf main, playing characters other than my main can be anything but crippling lmao

Fun Fact she literally didn't name one game without a block button, So how is she this mad about being put in a corner online.

Punching while moving is the single most revolutionary idea I have ever heard

15:21 "If solving sudoku puzzles is the enjoyment someone is looking for, using a sudoku solver or even looking at the solution on the back of the page is infinitely less rage enduring and requires WAYYY less time investment."

fellas, you ever baby rage and post it on twitter

I feel like a lot of this stems from 1) Mika not recognizing that game sense exists like, at all, and 2) looking at the few games that have a different move for down a, down back a, and down forward a, which admittedly take a while to learn every input but just don’t play on pad

9:20 How is that the fault of fighting games let alone mortal kombat? What does his bipedalness have to do with gameplay? Also what about his gameplay makes him fail to live up to the hype? What does his character design have to do with his gameplay or fighting game gameplay? If they failed to capture the fantasy of the character within the confines of their game then that's the designer's fault. That's literally their job to bring characters to life. Look at piranha plants gameplay design. He's an immobile trap character with a heavy emphasis on anti-airing and baiting. That's literally what piranha plants do. They are immobile traps that are designed to bait you and kill you for being above them. Mika isn't the final boss of 2020. She's just glass joe with 20 health bars.

"fighting games have bad movements" *a certain platform fighter from 2001 for the Gamecube rearing its head*

"you can't punch and move at the same time" *laughs in ralf galactica phantom*

I love how this tweet can be summed up as “let me mash my buttons and do something cool and win and not have to think I don’t like losing and can’t handle getting good at something.” The person who made this tweet has probably never seriously tried to get good at a fighting game. They act like the only thing in fighting games is “50 button combos” and offense, but that literally only 1/3 of the whole deal. I would also like to point out that the only fighting games with actual 50 button combos are hardcore anime fighters and marvel. They complain about pressing different buttons in a specific timing, when that’s been a thing for thousands of years. It’s called playing an instrument, and it’s really fun. The only thing I can slightly agree with is the stuff about overlap between characters, but u kinda have to do that unless u wanna be gg +r. This guy also think smash isn’t balanced and takes hundreds of hours per character LMAO. The thing about fighting games is that they’re awesome. They’re basically if you took the mind game of chess, and the physical skill of playing an instrument. I play the baritone, and I play chess(I’m not good lol). When you combine the two you get fighting games, and as I previously stated, they’re awesome.

The Fall Guys profile picture is gone, rest in peace

I guess, in my head, the point of having a large cast isn't so everyone can use a large amount of characters, it's so there are characters available to everyone that are fun. Thought about that way, a lot of those critiques don't really apply anymore. There's definitely something to be said for characters being similar to eachother or suffering, but it's the variations on a theme that make characters interesting, at least to me. You get to zone in on the specific advantages of your tools over another character's and capitalize them, kinda like... well, real combat sports. Everyone fights with arms and legs etc, everyone knows specific moves that are effective in certain scenarios, but not everyone's jab is quite as good as the next person's, some people don't have strong grappling etc. And, there *are* games where characters have one or elements that are wildly different from the rest of the cast, as in, not at all subtle differences. Also, I think it goes without saying that movement being (maybe) hard and movement being *bad* are two entirely different things. Yeah, in a lot of games, it's a non-trivial exercise to get into specific positions at specific times, but that's also part of the game, after all, it's the same way in real combat sports.

All this legit translates to “skill issue”

The only reason why I survived is because coney is goofy and fun.

that tweet about smash is so crazy. zero attempts at game balance??? hundreds of hours to get any enjoyment??? it's a party game!!! a party game!!! it's meant to be enjoyed by people of all skill levels whether they are starting out or are a pro. so many bad takes in this thread but I think that failing to realize that smash is a party game is absurd

Name every down b when I can barely remember everybody that’s in the game

"Stop liking what I don't like" in about 10 to 20 flatulent tweets. I hated it. This person is either trolling or terribly delusional. Either way, this more of a reason to avoid Twitter.

And now TK doing a video of naming all Down-B’s makes sense

most of this is only about the top 1% of fighting game players honestly you dont need 50 button combos when you're playing at lower skill levels with your friends. not everything about fighting games is top level tournaments, but that perception scares people away from it

I was laughing until she insulted Minecraft. Then the gloves came off.

I've known all characters moves in every smash iteration since i was like 5. each new game only took my about a week of playing to know all the moves in it. I'm honestly surprised how much of a minority i'm in to know all the character's moves and attributes in every smash game (like its just a "no duh" type thing to me.)

"For Honor didn't last very long" *ToeKnee would like to know your location*

I feel like a lot of these arguments could be made about something like chess (mostly the memorizing shit) or any competitive game

I just tested myself and I totally do know every characters down-b from memory so I guess I should see a therapist and get a life lol

Coney: serious topics Chat: FELLAS

half these "complaints" are just about misinputs and consistency, this is really just like 20 post of im not bad the game is bad.

Talking about redundant characters, Guilty Gear games tend to have a smaller roster but all the characters are for the most part completely different in playstyle.

Great video overall. This mika person is either a masterful troll, or the final boss level dark souls scrub that sweats fear in their dream

So fighting games are just competitive rhythm games. Why is that a bad thing? Both genres are awesome!

I feel like her real problem is with the meta of competitive games in general, rather than fighting games specifically.

The fact that Ryu’s tatsu, a move designed to move you forward while attacking AND through projectiles, has existed since 1993…

As someone that plays tekken, scvi and undernight. Learning one character means I can learn a different character in very little time compared to my first character since I now know the game mechanics. So yeah these fgs have a lot of characters but I often do and can learn the basics of multiple characters, to see if I like them or to see how to beat them.

This whole thread is literally just a girl getting mad at fighting games cause she's bad at them

i love that this video is mostly coney having a sound mind and chat being chat

Also, why is it that the people who are the best at a game usually have the least to say about it and the people that are the worst at a game have the most to say?

19:06 his neighbors must be wondering why his dog is barking so much

*Sucks at fighting games* and tries to get angry at everything in the category

Mika's mad that every attack doesn't have identical hitboxes "Man, I pressed the B button and Mario did something completely different than peach"

19:00 I don't mind getting destroyed by a sweat lord. If someone wants to go balls to the wall you either force them to play at your pace, adapt and take your turn at not letting them play by being hyper aggressive or just get bodied and recognize they were playing out of their mind.

I think what they mean at 2:16 is that they try to walk forward but keep accidentaly doing the hadouken input lmao

Probably one of your best videos, most of what you said is right, and you gave a good argument even for things I thought were wrong. Also, the two best themes for Under Night In Birth played.

Omg I couldn't stop learning, rooting for you, & laughing all at the same time just in the intro. Keep it up Coney!

Mario: FLUDD DK: Hand slap Link: remote bomb Samus/Dark Samus: bomb Yoshi: Yoshi bomb Kirby: Stone Fox: Shine Pikachu: Thunder Luigi: Cyclone Ness: PSI magnet Captain Falcon: Falcon kick Jigglypuff: rest Peach/Daisy: turnip pull Bowser: Bowser bomb Ice climbers: Blizzard Sheik: Bouncing fish Zelda: Phantom Dr. Mario: Dr. Tornado Pichu: Thunder Falco: Shine Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom/Ike/Corrin: counter Young link: bomb Ganondorf: Wizard's foot Mewtwo: Confusion Mr. Game and Watch: bucket Meta Knight: Dimensional cape Pit/Dark Pit: Guard ZSS: flip kick Wario: Waft Snake: C4 PT: Pokémon switch Diddy Kong: banana Lucas: PSI magnet Sonic: spin charge King Dedede: hammer Olimar: switch Pikmin Lucario: Double team R.O.B: Gyro (that bitch) Toon link: bomb Wolf: reflector Villager: tree Mega man: leaf shield Wii fit: Deep breathing Rosalina: gravity pull Little Mac: counter Greninja: slip counter Mii brawler: Head on assault, counter, feint kick Mii swordfighter: counter, rainbow slash, thrust Mii Gunner: bomb drop, reflect, absorb Palutena: counter/reflect Pac Man: Hydrant Robin: life absorb Shulk: vision Bowser JR: mechakoopa Duck hunt: gunman Ryu/Ken: Focus attack Cloud: Limit charge Bayonetta: Witch time Inkling: splat bomb Ridley: Skewer Simon/Richter: Holy water King K Rool: Belly Armour Isabelle: Lloyd rocket Incineroar: revenge Piranha plant: long stem strike Joker: Rebels guard, Tetrakarn, Makarakarn Hero: Command select Banjo and Kazzoie: Grenade Terry: power dunk Byleth: Amyr Min Min: ARM change Steve: TNT Sephiroth: Scintilla All from memory, used the game to get the names of one or two. Now where is my therapy?

“You can’t punch and move at the same time” *Minmin:*

I know every characters down B in Smash... and side, neutral, and up B as well... it's easy. A more valid point, to me, would have been, "does anyone know all the special move inputs of every character in Street fighter?" Smash makes it easy by being the same input for everyone, yet still being unique and intuitive moves, IMO.

Yeah but if you play snipers only in COD, then I feel like your transition to playing shotgun for the first time isn't gonna be an easy one. The only difference is guns are guns, and not very unique, yet she complains about everything in fighting games being the same

I'm really happy you made this a full video. The clips on Panda were a bit lacking

Every time Coney tells me to subscribe I hit the button even if I'm already subscribed. Hes just so convincing.

I think this person has a fundamental misunderstanding of fighting games. Memorizing perfect inputs can be important (really game dependent) for very high level play but when you are just starting out it’s not an issue. Footsies (positioning in general), anti-airs, and how to pressure are all more important when you are starting out. Also games like street fighter don’t have that long of combos, games like samurai showdown barely have combos and focus much more on positioning

The reason I play fighting games is the be better. I love beating ppl and showing dominance. Also mastering the combos and inputs is enjoyable because some characters are flashy and it’s dope to see their full potential

ok in fighting games where each characters require a big amount of time and skill to be prolific at, you usually dont need to learn to use all the roster, however, part of the fun is also knowing that you will be able to fight several different characters. sometimes you get tired to playing against one person because they only use one character and it becomes boring. learning al possible interactions between your character and all the others is also part of the fun.

Someone made her play with the bad controller feels bad

Slight correction regard memorizing moves on 10+ characters: In Street Fighter specifically, a lot of the special moves that each character can make can be broken down into four categories: 1) Fireball / Reverse Fireball ↓ , ↘ , → + P/K ↓ , ⇙ , ← + P/K 2) Dragon Punch (DP) → , ↓ , ↘ + P/K 3) Charge ← (2 seconds), → + P/K ↓ (2 seconds), ↑ + P/K 4) Spinning Pile Driver [Full Rotation] / Half-Rotation ↻ + P/K ←, ⇙ , ↓ , ↘ , → + P/K Once you've memorized these motions, you can pretty much jump to any character and test to see what moves do what. You're not really memorizing specific characters moves, you're only memorizing these four sets of motions. It's just a matter of finding out what type of character yours is, and what these motions do.

I think one of the dumbest statements that was said was that fighting games have terrible movement. The whole point of the game outside of outsmarting and beating your opponent is using your character to their full potential and understanding and utilizing their entire moveset to become a master of the character. When you look at a game like smash and then look at a game like lego Marvel superheroes, lego Marvel superheroes has a much bigger roster, but most of the characters are carbon copies, but the reason why smash is a much better game is because you have so much control over your character and so many options, it's why despite being absolute dogshit at fighting games, I still have a huge appreciation for them and still play occasional games like injustice or Pokken.

Mika taught me more about content in one Twitter thread than any Skillshare course could have

I’ve known of coney for a while through melee but I never realised he made this good content

18:00 it would be hilarious if this whole tweet Stromboli was made based off of experience playing fighting games on “little sister treatment”. Like actually writing a review of fighting games after playing them that way, lmao.

This girl just said that dark souls is less rage inducing than fighting games

I’ve been playing smash at a mid-level for a long time, playing smash casually since I was five, and I’ve never settled on a main. This has, clearly, crippled my competitive capabilities, but has not impeded on my fun.

Funny that almost none of that is true about Smash and yet it's technically the single most popular fighting game of all time.

8:39 Another example: Ridley should've been ACTUALLY massive. I'm sure if they tried they could find a way to balance it.

Last year I love watching Sajam's video for fighting games discussion. Nowadays its usually anime illuminati and LK, but I'm surprised whenever CONEY does it he gets a 11/10 for me.

Has anyone ever told Coney that he has some beautiful eyes?

The whole thing about characters conforming to fit into fighting games is true, but that's true for basically any game. There's gonna be something unique about most characters when they have to be put into a game, but I can't think of a single game in existence that wouldn't fit what she's talking about there. Games have to keep a structure some how.

I’m genuinely confused on if it’s uncommon to know all the down specials. Just from casually playing the game, I can probably describe 95% or higher of every characters moves. I was under the impression that most PGR players would be able to describe every move, and even be within 1-3 frames of its frame data Is this actually a difficult thing for people or is coney and chat joking

Linne's theme plays in the video, let's go!

Most not all modern fighters have a low barrier of entry to do stuff in general like simple input do something cool but almost all have an insanely high ceiling as well, while unique inputs and mechanics don't necessarily translate across fighting games fundamentals definitely do

Games like Aether have the freedom to make OCs and aren't bound to any templates. Character games (like Smash) and established franchises are restricted by both the core game engine and fans' expectations character design. (Sakurai is an artist and madman for juggling everything.) With the exception of the 3rd party cameos, new games always have the opportunity to shake things up drastically. Oh, and props for the HTML edit.

20:15 yeah I play blue/white control, how did you know?

14:59 Aight, here I go (long-ass list) Mario: FLUDD DK: down-slap thing Link: remote bomb Samus/D-Samus: bomb Yoshi: ground pound thing Kirby: stone Fox: reflector Pikachu: thunder Luigi: cyclone Ness: pk absorb or some shit Falcon: falcon kick Puff: rest Peach/Daisy: turnip Bowser: bowser bomb Icies: freeze mist or smthn Sheik: bouncing fish Zelda: phantom knight Dr. Mario: tornado(?) Pichu: thunder Falco: reflector Marth/Lucina: counter Y-Link: bomb G-dorf: wizard kick Mewtwo: disable Roy/Chrom: counter G&W: bucket MKnight: dimensional cape Pit/D-Pit: reflector ZSS: flip kick Wario: waft Snake: c4 Ike: counter P-Trainer: switch mons Diddy: banana Lucas: pk absorb but in front of him Sonic: charges a spin thing on the ground Dedede: jet hammer Olimar: pikmin order Lucario: double team R.O.B: gyro T-Link: bomb Wolf: reflector Villager: timber MMan: leaf shield WFTrainer: deep breathing Rosalina: projectile/item absorber thing Little Mac: slip up counter Greninja: substitute Brawler: goes up and head first down/feint jump/counter Swordfighter: rainbow reflector/thrust/counter Gunner: absorb/yellow reflector thing/bomb Palu: counter/reflector Pac: hydrant Robin: health sapper Shulk: vision Junior: mechakoopa Duck Hunt: gunman Ryu/Ken: focus attack Cloud: limit/finishing touch Corrin: counter Bayonetta: witch time Inkling: splat bomb Ridley: skewer Simon/Richter: holy water K-Rool: belly counter/reflector Isabelle: lloid mine that goes up Incineroar: revenge Plant: extendo plant thing Joker: rebels guard/counter and reflector Hero: aww shit ok ya got bang, kaboom, sizz, sizzle, bounce, kaclang, acceleratle, oomph, psyche up, hocus pocus, metal slash, flame slash, kacrackle slash, heal, zoom, thwack, whack, magic burst, snooze, hatchet man. i think thats all? Banjo: egg bomb that bounces weirdly Terry: power dunk Byleth: aymr Min-min: changes arms Steve: tnt Sephiroth: scintiller or something? counter that can activate by itself and also break TL;DR fuck I need a therapist

Assuming that Mika is primarily using Mortal Kombat as a baseline (going by the youtube comments here), her complaints and gripes (again, based heavily on MK and not, say, Street Fighter) are a lot more understandable. Not necessarily _correct_ when applied to the *wider* FG genre as a blanket whole, though.

I know that this video is a year old at this point, but I wanna watch a CONEY video where he just list Down B's from memory. Could even put them in a tier list

As a Smash scrub who's never won a local, allow me. I don't know all the names verbatim, but... *AHEM* Mario - Fludd DK - Ground Drum Link/Yink/Tink - Sheikah Bomb/ Bomb Samus/Dark Samus - Morph Ball Bomb Yoshi/Bowser - Ground Pound Kirby - Stone Kirby Fox/Wolf - Shine Pikachu - Thunder Luigi - Green Tornado Ness/Lucas - Psi Magnet Captain Falcon - Falcon Kick Jigglypuff - Rest Peach/Daisy - Turnip Ice Climbers - Freezing Wind Sheik - Bouncing Fish Zelda - Knight Dr. Mario - Tornado Pichu - Thunder Falco - Shine Kick Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom/Ike/Corrin/Shulk/K. Rool/Palutena/Joker/Lucario/Greninja/Little Mac/Incineroar/Sephiroth/Sora - Counter/Revenge/Vision/Rebel's Guard etc Ganondorf - Wizard's Foot Mewtwo - Disable (I still swear it's Scary Look, but whatever) Game n Watch - Bucket Meta Knight - Dimensional Cape Pit/Dark Pit - Guardian Orbitars ZSS - Flip Kick Wario - Waft Snake - C4 Pokemon Trainer - Switch Pokemon Diddy Kong - Banana Sonic - Spin Dash King Dedede - Rocket Mallet Olimar - Whistle ROB - Gyro Villager - Tree Megaman - Leaf Shield Wii Fit - Deep Breathing Rosa & Luma - Absorb Pac-Man - Hydrant Robin - Nosferatu Bowser Jr. - Mecha Koopa Duck Hunt - Gunman Ryu/Ken - Focus Cloud - Limit Charge Bayonetta - Witch Time Inkling - Splat Bomb Ridley - Skewer Simon/Richter - Holy Water Piranha Plant - Stretch Bite Hero - Spell Menu Banjo Kazooie - Grenade Terry - Power Dunk Byleth - Aymir (I think thats how it's spelled.. Warlock Punch on a stick.) Min Min - Arm Change Steve - TNT Pyra/Mythra - Pyra/Mythra Lol Kazuya - Heaven's Door (thus spoke Kishibe Rohan) Miis - pffft miis... Random - Repeat List Out of Order

That moment when you unlock ultra instinct auto pilot. It’s a great feeling

And I disagree that all characters in a fighting game are forced to play similarly. Sure in a 3D or 2D fighter characters are often similar. But in gg chip is walking on walls, in blazblue cf characters are all incredibly unique thanks to drive, in unist each character has a unique mechanic. In tekken characters have meter. No just because a character is forced to move back and forth and can canonically insta kill something, not letting them canonically insta kill something is balance not a limitation

sion/eltnum's theme always hits so hard.

The first thing you need to do in a game in which you remotely care about the outcome is know what you can do and what your opponent(s) can do. It is not crazy to be able to look at a smash character and remember "oh yeah that guy can throw a bomb". You're not constantly going over 90+ movesets in your head when you play, nor are you reciting the frame data of every single move you and your opponent throw out. I don't understand that criticism at all.

I hate scrubs - when you formulate an argument that touches on nearly every mechanic which defines and allows fighting games to work properly for the sole purpose of complaining about them, there's no way I can take you seriously.

That Moment when I can name every Down-B in smash bros. I can probably name every move now that I think about it. (Describe cause most moves don't have names) I actually think it's weird when people forget specials like how did you forget that Ike has a counter? of course only if you consider yourself a active competitive player

honestly..... i may not know every smash characters down b, but the fact that i basicly know every single character in league of legends, what they do , and roughly how to play them, even tho i quit playing it like a year ago, says something about that knowing every down b tweet, i dont think its directed at the right poeple

ive had multiple super casual friends when they play smash they usually accidentally side smash or side tilt instead of walking and never know that up b is a command. Maybe thats whats happening with mika

I mean I don't even have like 75 hours on Ultimate and I'm having fun with my mains