Sheldon MODEL is NOT the NASEBY 1655 (Royal Charles 1655)

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Sheldon MODEL is NOT the NASEBY 1655 (Royal Charles 1655)

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Kroum Batchvarov - Underwater Ship Archaeologist

Күн бұрын

The myth that the Sheldon Model represents Naseby just doesn't want to die- despite all the evidence that the model has nothing to do with Naseby, but a lot with Risk Applet. I had this model on my desk for two years and have looked at it, measured it to my heart's content...
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Пікірлер: 63

@manfredagne6738 5 ай бұрын

Thank you very much for the video, and if your book on the model ever gets written and published, consider one copy sold already :-)

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Thank you very much indeed! Ah, that is the rub - when am I going to get the time to sit and do something for the sheer pleasure of doing it...

@pitanpainter2140 5 ай бұрын

What a wonderful desk ornament, be great to see it published.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

OH, I loved it! Too bad Olya is not building 17th c ships but the far less interesting 18th c.

@pitanpainter2140 5 ай бұрын

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologistIf she's building from kits, then the 18th c is much easier to source. If from scratch, then your combined reference libraries should offer a range of options.

@davidrasch3082 5 ай бұрын

That is a beautiful vessel. Shaking out the fact from supposition helps me.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

I am very glad you are enjoying the videos and finding them helpful.

@chrismacks3881 5 ай бұрын

Another extremely interesting video. I can’t not believe where you found this beautiful model.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

They did not seem to appreciate what they had at the time. However, since that time, the model has been moved and is on display in the museum. Somewhere in my archives I must have a video of the insides of the model that I shot.

@donatasbruzas9933 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for the promised video. Now I will wait for the promised book and reconstruction drawings to compare with what we have created in the ShipsOfScale forum. I actually have dedicated pear wood resources waiting for it to happen :) Also if you could only share at least some of those inside videos...

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

The only challenge is to find the disk on which I stored them :-) It was so long ago. But I do need to go through my archives and find them, if a book is ever to be produced!

@BerlinCardYard 5 ай бұрын

There aren't very much XVIIth century monographies of beautyfull ships - and together with your wife and friends. By this you do give modelship building a much more historically correct foundation to stand on. So please, go further on this rocky road. Thanks a lot for your channel (even 1h videos from you will not be boring) and God bless you. Best wishes from Berlin, Christian

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Thank you very much! Lets wait see how long it will take us to produce it :-) When and if... I have such a huge list of things that are far more urgent to be published that I don't know when we shall really get to it.

@jamesjackson-lf2lw 4 ай бұрын

Love your presentations. Thank you!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

And thank you so much for watching!

@Calatriste54 Ай бұрын

Yep, Bravo!

@davidkelsey2864 5 ай бұрын

So I assume that this is almost like a Salesman's sample that could be showed to a client as an example and then discussions with the client could lead to all sorts of adjustments.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

This is exactly what the model was! The letters in the Swedish archives tell us as much. In essence, Sheldon was asked what type of ships he could build for the Crown and he built this model. A critique followed with things that the Crown wanted to be changed for any ship that Sheldon actually built. The model's dimensions are closest to Applet; ditto gun arrangements and the head. Niklas Erikson speaks of these. Can't wait for his book to be translated into English!

@Pocketfarmer1 5 ай бұрын

Very interesting model. The way the decks don’t follow the shear line must give the great cabin significant head room, while the after most main deck gunners would have to be the size of a jockey. Hell of a paperweight!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

No, actually everywhere the proportions are reasonable. The cockpit is an interesting feature and there are a few other that I found interesting, too. I wish I could persuade Olya to build a replica of the model - would love to have it on my desk again.

@lutzderlurch7877 3 ай бұрын

Side note...with modern technologies like photogrammetry etc., Maybe we may get to see some 3D models made from important pieces, that people can 3D print, who do not have the immense skills, time and money required to build their own models?

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 3 ай бұрын

The idea has been out there for awhile. Personally I was thinking more Along the lines of CNC manufactured pieces, but 3D printed is an option, too

@lutzderlurch7877 3 ай бұрын

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist I got a 3D printed 1/700 scale Victory in her original configuration, that was painted and rigged for less than what any kit and shipping would cost me. So naturally I wonder if full planked hull models might be doable for feasible prices, too. I'd love a decent Portland or Bellona. But I can't build one, nor afford a scratch built uality one. Most kits also look dubious in quality/details. Are you per chance on the modelshipworld forums?

@denisv4385 5 ай бұрын

I didn't know this ship and its history at all, as maritime history is endless and captivating. THANKS! Another discovery I made 2-3 weeks ago was the discovery of the two Roman wrecks from Lake Nemi which date from the reign of Caligula. Real floating palaces in homage to the goddess Diana and which unfortunately were destroyed during the war of 1944. Is there enough data to make a video of them?

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for watching! This model is listed as O3 in the Swedish Maritime Museum catalog. It is related to the Rijks Applet the wreck of which is being studied by Niklas Erickson. It is a lovely model and I had the privilege of having it on my desk for nearly two years when I worked for Vasa Museum. People fantasize that it is related to Naseby, but it is not. It is very clear the two had nothing in common. As to the Nemi barges: I saw some artifacts from them when I was a graduate student. A woman brought them after her dad died. He had been in Italy during WW2 with the American infantry in the area. He had taken things that we were able to identify via the catalogs that the Italians published in the 1930s. Alas, there was no legal way for us to take them and repatriate them. There is a book on the Nemi Barges by Prof. John McManamon - one of the most wonderful and erudite people I have ever had the privilege of knowing. I have to think this one through to see if I can gather enough material for a video. Thank you for the suggestion!

@kenbtheman 5 ай бұрын

That's a amazing that you found this. Such a very interesting video. Where is the model now?

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

Well< they knew of its existence. Just did not seem to be interested in it at the time.

@Calatriste54 Ай бұрын

Illumination of HMS Prince and HMS Royal William would be appreciated. Reality from fiction..

@lutzderlurch7877 3 ай бұрын

Ever since first I saw a picture of this model, I felt this was the most beautiful ship/model Ever built

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 3 ай бұрын

It is beautiful. However there are similar ones in the NMM that are every bit as beautiful. There is the other only-in-frame model, of a 2-decker that is gorgeous.

@lutzderlurch7877 3 ай бұрын

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Would you share it's name or inventory# ? I hope it is in their online collection. Restoration-Era ships are very interesting, in my oppinion, even though my personal favourite are mid 18th C british 3rd-6th rates (Bellona, Portland, Enterprise etc.) The early 17th C ships with the high and narrow stern, long beakhead seem like an endpoint and crowning of the style and artistic language of the era of the galleons. Emphasis on the verticality of the stern. The middle of the first half of the 18th C seems like the point where the 'man of war' modern style ship came to maturity, the stern firmly emphasizing the horizontal. Restoration era sips sit in the middle and seem to be in perpetual transition. I adore the bows, but the sterns are a beautiful selection of hit or miss, aesthetically, some looking beautifully balanced, others somehow weird and others still wildly bizarre. In my uneducated oppinon and aesthetic taste XD

@fredericrike5974 5 ай бұрын

This is a story well begun and we hope finished well!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

Well... I hope so, too. Somehow it constantly gets pushed back to the back burner, though. I have a small Harold Hahn schooner that has been framed, partially planked even and.... is in this condition since 2001. Very soon she herself will be an archaeological site! Let's hope this project does not end up the same way.

@timothykronser1341 5 ай бұрын

Thank you once again for sharing your experiences and insights. I do hope you continue to put out videos.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for the kind comment! I appreciate it! This will never be a large, earning channel. It will always remain a tiny, marginal one that offers odds and ends that perhaps 10 people or so in the world will find interesting :-)) At present Olya enjoys putting them out and ... I enjoy talking about maritime history and archaeology, so - why not continue to put them out.

@genojoe3176 5 ай бұрын

People need to open their mind to the conclusion that the facts are just that, facts, and cannot be disputed. Thank you again, Professor!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for watching and recognizing facts. But... people will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. I did not discover the facts; I just report them.

@TheHerring7 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for covering this model. Could you please advise if it's possible to access documented pictures somewhere? The deck house to me makes the ship look more Swedish. I don't know the frequencies of such deck houses in various regions.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

There is extensive archival material surviving about the model, the changes the Swedish Admiral requested, etc. Ericson discusses much of this in his book on Applet (ought to be with umlaut, I know). As to photos, I do not know if there are any on the site of the Maritime Museum. Obviously we have a lot, since we used a 3d-photogrammetric survey to model her. In addition to the FaroArm documentation that we did. And no - there is no distortion to the point of matching Naseby :-). Deckhouse - there is at least one confirmed 1630s ship with a deck house in English service. The model itself is showing quite a few things that were outdated by the 1650s when it was built.

@TheHerring7 4 ай бұрын

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Thank you for your reply. I will look for Ericson to see if I can find it.

@TheHerring7 4 ай бұрын

Now I'm getting curious about the use of the deck house. I wish I had access to more ships plans! 🙂 A deck house around the mizzen area, reaching from side to side with typically three windows per side seems to quite often be seen on Swedish ships. Would you have any information on the use and prevalence of these? I've always found that the way they are higher than the poop deck looks rather unusual.

@torstenmay204 5 ай бұрын

Regarding the deck house you refer to Peter Pett's Leopard, do you? This is the example I'm aware of. There was a discussion by Willibald Meischl in a German forum that such feature was typical for the Stuart period; and it disappeared after Cromwell. This sparked an argument wether van der Velde's drawings of Constant Reformation show the same thing, or if it is only a sunroof in that case. Cheers, Torsten

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

Yes, this is exactly the drawing I was referring to. I am not aware of any other confirmed original van de Velde's that feature it. More to the point, Frank Fox wasn't either - I have discussed this model with him in the past. I myself have often wondered about the Constant Reformation, too. She, however, was a Burrell product if memory serves me right. I love that ship for she was Prince Rupert's flagship. Deckhouses clearly did not find favor with the Navy Royale.

@siredwardpellew5929 5 ай бұрын

Not saying that this model is Naseby, But Naseby did have a deckhouse just afore of the aft castle, Also Naseby was originally ordered as a 60 gun ship, this model seems to relate closer to Naseby as originally planned with the Beakhead and lower tier Galleries matching those of the original 1654 programme ships. Also Van De Velde drawings quite clearly show a deckhouse as well and Beakhead decor strongly resembling the model, another clue supporting this idea is the longer headrails, which also match Van De Velde's drawing to a T, So in short. Fore castle in addition was not planned and much of it was changed especially along the upper waist of the ship. Another point is that you mentioned that the dimensions are not a perfect match, yet you are seeming unaware the this model's length and mostly width have been deformed over time. Anyhow i say all with respect and love ofc

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

I beg to differ on most of your comments. The two ships dramatically differ in detail and dimensions. Frank Fox was the first - as far back as 1980 - to point out that if any ship, this model is related to the Riks Applet. The correspondence survives in the archives and Niklas Erickson discusses this in his book. As to the deck house, none of the painting show it. Crucial however are the dimensions: they do not match no matter how you measure the length on keel. But each to his own. As to "deformation" - Did You have the model on your desk for two years, give or take? Because I did. I am an archaeologist: distortion is a constant part of life for me. And the only distortion present is that the model is not perfectly fair. It has neither shrunk, nor lengthened. I understand your desire for her to be Naseby completely. Though as a good Jacobite, I would prefer her in the Royal Charles version ;-).

@andrewjones1649 5 ай бұрын

Thank you Doctor. Wonderfully informative as usual.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for watching!

@oliverglier8605 4 ай бұрын

Thank you very much for your presentation. Contemporary ship models of that period could be identified with typically less than 5% difference in dimension so I see no way that this model represents the much beamier Naseby. If Sheldon's model had been built (as Riksäpplet or whatever) it must have been fitted with relatively small guns, more alike the biggest dutch ships, and still having considerable depth because of the 3rd deck and its fine lines. I'm not so sure about the deckhouse: at a first sight, the sidewindows on the pictures of Royal Charles ex Naseby appear nonsensical if there was a gangway behind, thus no deckhouse. But many modelers managed to put those windows inbetween the deckbeams, and their purpose could be to shed light into the deck below the gangway. I don't understand the deckhouse construction enough in order to come to a conclusion yet and I also couldn't find any hint (having only hobbiest books) that there was no deckhouse at the time of construction (Naseby was modified later and the deckhouse could have been removed). So maybe you can say more about it, having had access to primary sources? A third aspect: from the standpoint of a model builder, I still think that those contemporary models of Commenwealth ships are a great source for reconstructing the lines of Naseby, as they clearly differ from earlier and later practice. By the way, I'm looking forward to your book 😊 Did you consider crowdfunding? Kind regards, Oliver

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the interesting comment and my apologies for how long it has taken me to answer it! It is due to combination of end of semester and work-related travel. All your points are excellent! The portraits we have of Royal Charles from the very beginning of her short career show the windows and as you say, this makes no sense if she had a deck house. Ergo, she didn’t. I have to double-cheque Ericsson’s book on the Rijks Applet, but I believe she carried 24-pounders. I will get back once I do it. As to the reconstruction, there are two original and well-preserved Commonwealth period ship models: this three-decker and the two-decker at the NMM. The one in the Rogers collection is a new ship built by Culver who did not trouble himself to mark what he changed and what is original on his “model repairs”, so is unreliable source, alas.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 3 ай бұрын

And - no, I haven’t considered crowd-funding, actually :-). This is a pleasure project; not serious research, so has to be on the back burner. At present I am working on a book on Ottoman shipping of the Black Sea and the deadline for the manuscript is getting frightfully close!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 3 ай бұрын

Alright- I checked. She carried 18 24-pounders as heaviest armament as per Eriksson pages 62 and 64.

@ronc7743 5 ай бұрын

What a jewel, this model!

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Yes indeed!

@bengilbert5610 5 ай бұрын

Assuming you could not figure out a way to take the model with you when you left Stockholm, where did it end up? I visited the maritime museum in Stockholm last year and don't recall seeing it.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 5 ай бұрын

Alas, I could not figure out how to steal it. The thought had passed through my mind, I admit :-). Unfortunately I do not have contacts in the art smuggling community to help me :-)) It was returned to the Maritime Museum in Stockholm. The last time I saw it, it was on display in one of the galleries. They took it down for Olya and me to do the 3D photogrammetry of it. I assumed it would return on display

@Alex-pd8zi 5 ай бұрын

Have you seen new Shogun TV series (2024)? There are nice ships, are they accurate? I thought Portuguese black ship was bigger.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

I haven't - we do not have TV at home. When I have time for myself, I prefer reading. I used to love the book back in my youth and have watched the old miniseries with Richard Chamberlain in the role of Blackthorn. I reread the book recently and did not know whether to laugh or cry for Mr. Clavell may be a master story-teller, but his knowledge of ships and early 17th c European arms and warfare is negligible. He devises plug bayonets good 70 years plus before they were introduced. Now you picked my curiosity though... I will have to see if I can see it somehow.

@SQSNSQ 5 ай бұрын

On some photos the model seems a bit crooked/asymmetrical. Is this the way, it was built, or is this a result of the wood being dried unevenly throughout the centuries of it's existence? Just curious.

@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist 4 ай бұрын

The model was found in three pieces and was re-assembled. This is where the unevenness comes from. The wood itself is not nearly as twisted as the photos may suggest. Nor is there appreciable shrinkage or distortion. So the idea that distortion explains the difference in dimensions between the model and the known dimensions of Naseby/Royal Charles does not hold water, attractive as it might be.