Something that we thought about, but talked to an aerospace engineer who felt that the RPMs were too low to make a huge difference. Secondly, wouldn’t have been able to count hits on a spinning target (can’t afford the $50k camera that would let us see those hits, haha)

@@claylabusa was the areospace engineer a Clay target shooter? All I have is years and years of experience and all the hours behind the gun both as a shooter and instructor. It plays a role for sure.

@@claysnwingsshotgunning Amorphous solids don't break gradually. Cracks either propagate or they do not, there are no half measures. Pitch, the binder in sporting clays, is an amorphous solid, very similar to glass. Sure, seeing a clay chip flying energetically off of a spinning clay might lead you to believe the spinning helped it detach, but the crack will propagate, or it will not. There are no half measures, or slight cracks. I am sure in your years of experience you've seen a kid shoot a BB through a window and the window didn't shatter, just a hole appeared with a crater on one side? Spinning that window wouldn't have made a bit of difference, because amorphous solids either crack, or they do not.

I have heard that if the clays are wet, they don't spin well off the trap therefore they are harder to break. Thus, no centrifugal force to aid in breaking the clay

Absolutely! For as much work as it is to do videos, it can undoubtedly be a lot of fun!

Yeah! Always wild to see pictures of rabbits that look like Swiss cheese but still intact. We’ll likely tackle rabbit targets separately at some point down the line

Thanks, I think that’s a great assessment and you bring up an interesting point! Absolutely no reason why you couldn’t carry both with you and use them situationally. Clearly Anthony Matarese knows as much about this subject as anybody out there, so definitely a reliable source! It’s also interesting to note that, if you use 1 1/8 oz of #7.5 shot, it’s about the same number of pellets as 1 oz of #8 shot. I feel like I heard somebody mention that recently (maybe it was that podcast that Anthony did recently).

I'd shoot 8s if I can see under edge of the clay. For rabbit 6s are better, I pick up many rabbit targets with shot grazing on them but didn't break.

I like the way 7.5 breaks anything

Thanks! Much appreciated!

Thanks! That’s exactly what we’re going for. Glad you found our channel. Those guys over at TGS are awesome. We had a great time hanging out with Johnny and Sasha at the US Open. They’re the best in the business

Look for the shotgunning series on Surviving Duck Season. You will geek out as an engineer. I did.

Congratulations on the license! Have you decided what you are going to buy? So many great choices there in the UK!

@ Hugh Redmayne, Congratulations from the U.S. I would love to go to the UK on a pheasant, or other bird hunt. The entire experience looks so formal.

Haha, for sure. White Flyer makes them as fast as we can break ‘em, though

Glad you enjoyed it and hopefully found some value in it...I've had many people take away different things but everyone interpreted the information on their own however they thought best.

Those certainly seem like reasonable choices. I know a lot of people who do the same.

Thanks! Yeah, #8 is pretty effective at closer ranges. We’re gonna do a follow-up video for long range, but expect #7.5 to dominate beyond 50 yards…will have to see, though!

I’m pretty used to shooting 1oz on a regular basis myself. I like the lower recoil

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!

Thanks! We’ll definitely have to look at that in the future.

I agree. Different chokes do seem to make a difference - for example, Rhino patterns are tighter than certain Brileys and factory chokes that I've used. @@claylabusa

I’m like you. I shoot a fixed choke gun now and don’t give it much thought these days. Only rarely do I wish I had an open choke (like a close rabbit)

Thank you very much! It's just JP now so trying to keep it up!

That's a really interesting point about how temperature affects things. We may have to look into that in a future video!

Thanks! Definitely want to look at that in a future video

Happy to here that! Of course it's not a perfect test but hoped it would provide some insight to folks looking for it. Thanks for being a subscriber!

Yeah, that’s the trick these days…in a perfect world, would like to be able to stick to a particular shell and shot size. These days, it’s more about using what you can find

Thanks!

No doubt that 1-1/8 oz is ideal if you can handle the recoil and if not shooting FITASC. I personally find that I’m a wimp, and prefer 1 oz loads. It’s a good reason to go with a semi auto though 🤷‍♂️

@@claylabusa agreed, I may be saying that because I shoot a very soft shooting semi auto

Thank you for being a subscriber!

Thanks, great idea. We’d be interested to see those results ourselves!

Yeah, that’d be an interesting thing to do. Maybe once a year, have everybody do a recap of what they’re using and why. Thanks for the suggestion!

Thanks! Yeah, I tend to do the same. These days, it’s whatever you can get your hand on!

Thanks! Glad it helped!

Nice! At the end of the day it is likely the best practice for folks to shoot and pattern their own gun with their preferred ammunition just to know as every gun is not the same just as every shell doesn't perform the same.

Great idea, I think we may... planning on linking up with Briley here soon.

Biscuit was so proud of that stick! Definitely the real “Clay lab” haha

I agree, I think that would be an interesting subject for a future video. A lot of people suspect light modified is the most versatile, but would be interesting to actually see if that's the case. Thanks for the suggestion!

@@claylabusa I shoot Clays with a Browning Crossover Target 30in. Recently, my score has gone up 10% by switching my chokes from IC/MOD to Skeet/IC. I carry a MOD in my pocket for a long tower shot.

Very interesting idea! Have heard a few people talk about the shot column, also in relation to whether you get any kind of lateral spread with movement of the gun (of the two, I think front to back length like you mention would play more of a role). At a minimum, sounds like a good excuse for us to get an ultra high speed camera ;)

@@claylabusa I fully support the idea of a high speed camera!

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nMeTYJNkr6yXd3U.html

Surviving Duck Season did this study on shot columns.

Interesting, we will have to look at rifled choke tubes

Very interesting. I love to see how people interpret the information as I've had others state that this is actually why they only shoot #7.5s haha all and all, confidence in whatever load you shoot is what matters. If you think it'll break it then you'll be more confident in your shoot process and execute without doubt IMHO -JP

Thanks!

That's very interesting. Are there a wide variety of manufacturers selling shotgun shells in Ireland? One thing I have often noticed in the US is that shooters using semi-automatic shotguns often use heavier 1 1/8 oz loads, as they can handle the recoil more easily. I personally prefer 1 oz loads due to lower recoil.

@@claylabusa Yeah, probably 4 or 5 UK manufacturers sell here and the same number of Italian brands, the most famous of which are probably Fiocchi. Couple of French brands too, Clever and Joker, but sometimes supply gets interrupted. Most of these come into Ireland through distributors in the UK, and Brexit has messed up the supply lines a bit. We get Winchester and Remington too, of course. Clay shells have gone up in price this ladt 18 months, not much to be got for less than Euro 220 per thousand, standard clay shell is 1 oz of 7.5 shot. 1 oz. is 28 grams, we are gradually converting to the metric system. Common for youngsters to use a 12 bore shotgun with either a 21 or 24 gram load, which translates to a 3/4 ounce load and a 7/8 ounce load, to keep recoil down. Few use a 20 bore, they are a bit light and even with a 21 gram load can be a bit "punchy" on a beginner. 20 bore shells are about 30% more expensive too. Here is a link to a gun shop near me. wildhunter.ie/collections/shotgun-cartridges?page=2

Thanks, certainly a valid point. That’s the main reason we actually took our data for comparison from shooting at moving targets in the second half of the video. Also had an interesting discussion with an aerospace engineer about it…we really ought to make a separate video on the physics of sporting clays…

@@claylabusa Oh I agree you did good work on the 2nd half for sure, I shoot English skeet, and has to be steel shot, the 9s at the distance for skeet are Perfect. Really enjoy your content and love the thoroughness of your work, I was just suggesting that the speed of which the clays were thrown will make a difference to the breaks were making, so rising teal stalling out vs a screaming crosser would make the difference here in visuals. Would love you to do a pattern density / clay breaking experiment with steel shot as we seem to be being forced in this direction - I have to because it's over marsh land but would be interesting to see what comes up and can't wait to see the physic video!

Yeah! Appreciate the feedback for sure. Always like new ideas, so keep them coming! Will have to check out the steel shot. Main thing you see it used for in the US at the moment is duck hunting, but wouldn’t be totally surprised to see it happen with clay shooting eventually.

Agreed! They’re excellent shells. We’re getting ready to film a dedicated episode covering Fiocchi’s full line of competition shells. They have a pretty broad range of different shells

@@claylabusa Use them for a season In 2019. Nothing to be had now.

The other interesting aspect of that is, when you feel like you shoot better with #8, that added confidence will help you too

Yeah, that’s a ton of pellets to be sending at a clay target, if you can handle the recoil! Hard to imagine a better load at close range. Do you tend to shoot an over-under or semi auto?

@@claylabusa Perazzi MX8 O/U is the choice 👌 👍 😄 w/Briley thin wall series one chokes.

Pretty solid choices. Hard to go wrong with that combination

​@@claylabusa UK shot size is slightly different to the US . Eg our #8 would be your 8 1/2 , US # 7 1/2 would be UK 6 1/2.

Captured this comment to put into the list! Thank you for commenting. I'll take a look into finding a good way to demonstrate the differences in shot payload.

Hey! Thanks for the question. Here are the chokes we were using… Field Test #1: Jeremy - Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley) Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) Field Test #2 and #3: Jeremy- Same as above (in 12 gauge) Scott- Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke Titanium, ported Skeet 2 constriction (0.007) Jereme “JP”- Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes Titanium Skeet constriction (0.005) CJ: Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) We were intentionally using open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the targets (to better show a difference between shot sizes). Be on the lookout for future episodes where we will be trying out chokes from different manufacturers! Aftermarket chokes are a big part of the clay shooting industry, so it’s a subject we’re all super curious about.

@@claylabusa like I said in a previous comment my history is in trap and won high school competitions with “full and imod” chokes and getting into sporting clays I shoot a “light modified and modified” I don’t have any issues with them but it the biggest choke in sporting clays seems to be “improved cyclinder” I just can’t bring myself to use one, but nice to see this video was done with skeet chokes. If you do a choke episode or two can you test extend vs. flush tubes

Yeah, I’m with you on the tighter chokes in actual competition. I personally shoot double light modified in my Blaser for the courses near me. A lot of people love the Krieghoff parcours with fixed IM and M choked barrels. Thanks for the idea on the flush vs extended chokes. Would be interesting to see if added length affects the pattern…

Many others have tested the hardness of these shells used so we didnt deam it necessary hut here are some of their results.The Fiocchi Target Shooting Dynamics pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.029" which placed it as "soft." The Fiocchi Exacta Target "Little Rino" pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.025 which is "medium." Hope that helps!

That is the same data I have found.A guy who posts to "trapshooter" does testing. Said dynamic is 2% and that 7 1/2 measures #8. I might to break some down and measure it myself. Keep up the great work. I have suggested this video when people ask what I am shooting for sporting clays and continental.

Thank you! Will do! Report back your findings, would be interested to hear what you've found. Thanks. -JP

Thanks! We ran into somebody at a recent shoot who mentioned their #8.5 shot and how well it performed. I bet at the distances we generally shoot in sporting clays (50 yards or less), you wouldn’t see a tremendous difference between 8 and 8.5, and you would get that improved pattern density.

Steel shot is going to be lighter by a considerable margin, so don’t think our finding would apply. I’m guessing you could also find a “sweet spot” with steel, though.

Jereme was using 52CHC lenses on his Pillas

Sorry for the delay but yes the chokes were matching however now a days I bet with us being better shooters we get different results in the overall shootout.

Of course! Hopefully we can answer it, haha. We’re looking at doing a choke video in the future, too

@@claylabusa dumb question. Can 7.5s pattern better than 8s? Reason I'm asking, I ended up buying a case of 7.5s and I shot really well with it. Found 8s and I thought I'd really knock them dead and I shot so terrible. Halfway through the course I switch back to 7.5s and started shooting well again. I'm talking my text so forgive me. I know with my hunting chokes I would always pattern my ammo to see what shot best

Best place to see updated prices on Pillas is through ClayTargetVision.com. If you’re looking at placing an order, highly recommend talking to them over the phone to get their input on lens selection OR catch up with them at a large event and try out the lenses yourself

Here are the chokes we used in this episode. We intentionally used open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the target. Field Test #1: Jeremy - Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley) Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) Field Test #2 and #3: Jeremy- Same as above (in 12 gauge) Scott- Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke Titanium, ported Skeet 2 constriction (0.007) Jereme “JP”- Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes Titanium Skeet constriction (0.005) CJ: Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005)

@@claylabusa thoroughly enjoyed the video. Great content and looking forward to more. Thanks for the reply and info!

😆

New follower. Good stuff! Tell Jeremy he needs to get a Spyderco Smock to carry. Has his name on it, literally. lol

Haha will do but we carry bigger. Staccato actually. I'll let him know

And welcome to the squad, thanks for the support

@@claylabusaDWX here

That's interesting because I'm not sure who is saying you can't. A lot of people including youth shoot 20ga in main events at regionals, nationals and worlds. Also in sub gauge many shot 28ga for both 20 & 28ga events for basically the same reason you mentioned. 🤔

@claylabusa I just assumed you couldn't. Because they always have the main classified as 12ga. And all other guages as sub gauges. I didnt know if nsca had rules against it or not.

Where I'm from. It's 12ga main in the description and some other sub guage events.

@jimedray interesting. You shouldn't have any issues if at an NSCA event. Only rules in NSCA are about not being able to UP in gauge of course.

It would affect things, so we standardized it amongst all three shooters. Might have been slight variations from one manufacturer to another, but should stay fairly consistent. Now…should you shoot a tighter choke when using 7.5 vs 8 to keep the density the same? That would be an interesting question to look at some day

Test 1 was stationary targets. Test 2 later in the video was moving targets.

Hey, thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I definitely agree that spinning / moving targets are a better, more representative test. For Part 1, there wasn’t a great way to consistently see the pellets hit the target if it was moving, so we started with them stationary. I actually had a long and interesting conversation about that very subject with my brother-in-law, who is an aerospace engineer. I was thinking that centrifugal force and drag from the targets starting to break would pull the targets apart more easily, but he felt that those forces are actually pretty negligible with relatively slow rotational velocity or the clays and slow speeds. His main critique was the angle at which we were hitting the targets (straight on, right at the dome). For the long range test, we’re going to try to rig them from some fishing line or something. The cardboard may have also absorbed some of the force. Anyway, thanks again for the feedback! Always looking for ways to tweak our “experiments” to make them better the next time :)

Have heard similar things, especially in regards to certain shells patterning well in certain guns. Once the ammunition shortage in the US eases up, I’ll have to experiment with that in my gun. We’re also looking at doing a video covering shot speed

It is and he's getting a Greenwood stock to fix all that!

Hard to go wrong with #8!

Yeah, can see your point. It’s actually something we considered both before and after the test, but ran into two issues: 1) It would be difficult to rig a target to be spinning and stationary. Without it being still, can’t get a camera close enough to see number of hits. 2) ran it by my brother-in-law who is an aerospace engineer and he said that both the movement of the target through the air and the centrifugal force are so negligible compared to the kinetic energy of the shot as to make no real difference. Essentially, not spinning fast enough for a small structural defect (like a single pellet striking it) to make a target break differently. More on that in a future video! Either way, thanks for the feedback!