I once had a team leader that just criticized everyone in the building. I wasn’t going to deal with this phony anymore so I found a better job and I turned in my resignation to the top mgr. the first line out of his mouth was, is it because of the your team leader? I said yep and if I were you I would make some changes before more good ppl leave.

Do you want her selling and generating revenue, or, would you prefer she do paperwork. Maybe, instead of firing her, you rethink the paperwork and who else could do it, like an assistant. The question becomes: is she just doing a little more selling or is she generating twice, thrice the revenue (or more) then every one else? Be careful not to cut off your nose because the air smells bad. Saying "she's average" and then saying "she's the best they have had in that position" is stating the other team members are BELOW average, yet, he's going to fire her! Entrepreneurs can be their own worst enemy.

"Its time to end a relationship or a job when there's no hope it's going to get better". That is soooo true. In this case this lady won't improve because she thinks she's untouchable, it's a common trait for a salesman.

The caller has his sales structure wrong if he thinks that excellent sales people will always be interested in paperwork or computer work - or have the ability to even do so. Many on my team have adult ADHD and need assistance with this but they are excellent with clients. Usually great office acumen and sales talents don’t go together in one person - that is usually two different personality types.

Good sales people will die doing the paperwork. Stop asking them to do it. That's clerical work. Hire a heavy S to do that stuff for them

"She's the best recruiter so far....the clients love her" You need to think outside the box. Tell her you've done everything to get her straight on paperwork, but she's valued, and get her an assistant. And the the assistant's pay should be tied to the extra revenue she brings in. Seems like if someone takes care of her paperwork, she might be able to pull in even more revenue for the company. Option B...you fire her, she starts her own company and hires an assistant.

When most companies put you on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP), you need to get your resume in order and start looking for a new job because that company is likely going to fire you anyway. The PIP is typically just a way for the company to cover themselves legally. They've likely already made up their mind to fire you and it's already too late.

I'm a career salesperson. I despise peers like that problem employee. The reason why people like that sell more than others is they don't do the tedious ' busy work ' , focus only on sales but create excessive work for others.

There is something missing in this call. Why would the caller mention that this feels like a "brash" decision when any logical objective assessment clearly indicates a patient, methodical process? Unless .... it wasn't, and the caller knows it and wants to feel good about a bad decision he is about to make. I suspect that during these feedback and performance meetings leadership wasn't clear or serious about the consequences for a lack of progress. I'm willing to bet, like much of leadership today they paint a rosy picture and "minor" issues to tweak in a performance review. And now this top performer is going to get blindsided and the company is going to suffer.

Wait a minute, how much does she produce out of that $5 million in revenue? What exactly are the procedures in the sale cycle is she not doing? …seriously Dave, you want her to be fired without asking these simple questions? Maybe his procedures need to be changed? In this day and age with a small business why would you get rid of the best producer in your company without entertaining ALL the facts?!

She generates the most income and the clients love her. So by all means fire her so she can go out on her own...taking your clients with her.

Man this is a tough call. Im a a structural engineer and i am in a situation where i was upfront with a manager that i needed about an extra week to finish a delieverable that was moved up a whole month.i have a crazy work load. He just told me they need it when they need it. And right there i thought i need to update my resume. I didnt make the requested date and got it out 2 days after the requested date. And the guy is going to my manager. Im just tryong to stay positive while i look for a new job. So i dont have a bad attitude as the caller is saying his top performer has. But sometimes the "bosses" just suck. Im currently gonna find another job opportunity

Dave might be right or the team members might be jealous because shes out performing them. If paperwork isn't her strong point get an admin assistant.

I hope I don't get my head chewed off after my statement. lol. I have been in high-level sales and marketing for many years. It was challenging for me to go high energy and focus in one direction then switch to paperwork. The burnout was intense. I wasn't able to do both. It became a concern for all involved and unbearable to continue, I gave my resignation with tearful defeat. My Boss didn't want to lose me, for I was bringing so much to the department, that none could match my skills. My Boss went to a higher authority and got approval to hire an Assistant for me to do all the paperwork. In turn, I gave more to the prime directive and my sales % increased. I'm not saying all should do the same. But I will say, pick your battles wisely. Creating greatness within another isn't always following the same pattern as others. Sometimes it's building a new path that no one has ever endeavored to create an empire. 🤓 Retired employee of INTEL

It is likely the women has a focus on SALES instead of the KEY PERFORMANCE INDICATOR busywork you assign so that management can stare at their CRM dashboards and believe they add value. I say to the SALESperson being discussed here, get out and find a company oriented to sales instead of populating fields in CRM databases.

If she is that valuable to the company, you could consider hiring her an assistant to do all the paperwork/compliance and let her sell. But only if it wouldn't destroy the sales culture at the company.

Yeah... something is off here, dude isn't giving the whole story. You don't put your best employee on a PIP because they don't do enough documentation. Also he directively, conterdicts himself, she makes the most money and all the clients love her but overall she's just average at her job.

I used to have a couple of toxic coworkers. Things are so much better since they're gone.

One person can ruin a team!

She knows she is in demand. She knows she has control. She doesn't care if you dump her, because she already has stuff lined-up.

Great salespeople are often very bad at administrative task. The problem is most businesses can’t afford to have another person for administration that the sales person could simply do themselves (and has time to do.) A lot of times I see it’s better for a business to have someone who can sell even 75% as good BUT will do the admin task as well because at the end of the day your making the same if not more profit plus the others on the team like them more (increased company morale.) No one likes the great salesperson who makes their day harder.

What he did not say was if he had that serious conversation with her. What was her reason for not meeting expectations? Did her give her formal warnings? This sounds a bit weird to me….. something is off…. Also he was inconsistent in his description of her work performance.

If your best employee is someone on PIP who can't follow instructions. I'm concerned what the rest of the team looks like lol

I would tell her if she can't handle the requirements, get her an assistant to do it, and have this cost reflected in her salary.

It sounds like the employee in question is the "Top Dog" when it comes to earning. A different approach from firing her would be to hire an administrative assistant for her. I mean if she really is the BEST at generating revenue (which is the ultimate goal of this business), this owner should do some simple math and determine if the cost of hiring an administrative assistant to take care of all that documentation, follow-up, and whatever else might be considered by this Top Dog to be nickel-and-dime stuff, then it might be a good investment for this one employee to provide her with someone to manage all the things which are not directly generating revenue. Now if you do this, if you provide an assistant, you're going to get push-back from the other sales reps in the form of "Where's Mine?" Two ways to handle that. The easiest would be to tell them "Hey, you start bringing in the bucks she brings in every month and you can have an assistant too"; or, in the alternative, let this administrative assistant help everybody with their non-critical stuff with the understanding that first priority goes to the Top Dog.

It's never easy. But, the harm to the company and team is worse than you know.

What's the protocol? After she makes the sale she has to beg, plead and threaten to get the company to fill their part of the agreement, doesn't she? That breath of fresh air? That's the old customers rushing out.

Maybe the protocols are also part of he problem? Just because a business has them doesn’t mean they always work well to help the business run and sometimes they are even downright bad.

The thing is not everyone can be successful in every position. She would probably be great at just straight recruiting with no other responsibilities. It isn't his responsibility to create that position for her.

I needed to hear this today. Thank you

Been there. From the time you first think it until you actually DO it is just procrastination.

Bingo, just like Dave said, tough but it needs to be done for the better of the COMPANY!

Many times sales folks are forced into doing 2 jobs, the sales job that is successful and the reporting administration. No longer enough to be the best salesperson, now your forecasts, pipeline, daily contacts, endless reports and waste of time meetings with leadership, all the documentation that kills sales time and drains sales energy.

Shes the best recruiter at generating revenue and your going to fire her?!?! Sound like shes a rock star!!

Having worked in big company structure communicating between R&D, product development and sales I can assure everyone that 80% of the process established by management was a worthless waste of time. As Elon musk says: the best part is no part, the best process no process. Perhaps the best next step is to ask her “if you were in charge, what would you change to make everyone as productive as you?” I eventually hired several outstanding engineers but only after months of obstruction by Human Resources who had no concept of the work or how to assess the people who could do it. Fired, she might become a competitor with the best accounts following her.

I learned during my years in the workforce, that few supervisors see the value in all employees. I have worked many jobs over my lifetime and I left many jobs and one thing I came to find out was, they can and will always replace you. Whether you were the better employee, who knows, but if an employee is giving you grief go ahead and get rid of them with good documentation.

If the team is done with her, then it may be best to give her the final ultimatum and let her go when she fails. However, if the best sales person you've ever had is having issues with your admin processes, then you may need to change your processes to best serve the sales team. Your processes can be hindering them. Maybe the other team members would also be selling more with less admin work as well. Especially if they are paid on commission, why would they want to do extra works for no pay. Hire a customer service admin that does the paperwork and follow up crap for the team.

I loved how he says she is "average" but earns more money than anyone in the position? Problem is not doing paperwork correctly can be what causes you to get sued and lose costing you more money and putting company at risk, although you should be insured. She probably does need to go but how does she not see writing on the wall?

Does she generate enough income to pay for an assistant? If it’s a numbers question this could be a possible solution

It only takes one bad manager or supervisor to cause a company to unionize

Maybe she's overworked, and she doesn't have time for callbacks and paperwork.

It is debatable that her leaving will increase the performance of the remaining team members. In fact her customers will follow her to her new employer because she is the value add in the relationship.

This guy is full of it. He goes from she the top performer to well she's just average.

I had a co worker who constantly criticized the company and even fell asleep on the job, it was relief when she left, we were too busy resenting her to get work done.

Yup Same with a friendship that has a tragic flaw… there you go oh oh

As long as all of this has been DOCUMENTED, he should not have a problem getting rid of her. ALWAYS cover your butt with paper!

The reality is with your best employees you *do* play favorites. They get bigger raises, they get promotions, they make more money.

The best coaches build around their teams strenghts

Thinking that firing her would increase productivity is bad logic. Truth is that true “go-getters/Top dogs” would never let someone else’s performance get in their way of producing.

There's way more to this than this clip is showing. It's not that simple for a small business to fire a top performer and it's really not easy to find and retain top talent in a position like that. If she's not a total bitch I'd consider having someone else to do the paperwork for her. When he said 'she's average but the best we've had'. The set off an alarm for me; he's probably not paying enough to get top talent in that position which is why she won't do all the paperwork in the first place.

Her job is to generate revenue which pays a commission, and she is the best at it. The discussion needs to be with management, however that never happens because management sets the culture, pays for consulting to tell them what they want to hear or recommend changes that require employee empowerment that will never (or halfhearted) be implemented.

Australia has a three strike policy. Written interview with HR to discuss problem and expectations, possible solutions, and a review date for performance improvement. Second HR discussion about expectations not being met again, and set another review date. Third discussion is to review lack of progress and to terminate employment. This can be as short as 2 months.

I know a young woman who worked at a classy chain restaurant, she was the greeter and cashier, she was always friendly with the customers, and she earned the most tips, it was a tip jar on the counter and staff loved working on her shift, because the tips were divided evenly between all the staff during that shift. She also worked hard when there were no customers; swept the floors, took out the garbage, etc. Then, she got involved in a boyfriend who her friends warn her about because he was doing drugs, and she went downhill, didn't always show up on time at work, was very moody, etc. She was gently let go by the manager, or so she thought. Then, a few years later, after she dumped that boyfriend, and looked for work, she tried to apply to this chain restaurant again, she discovered she is on the 'do not hire again' list.

I heard dave heartless about firing ppl too

You get her a personal assistant. Take it out of her salary if you want. But it’s probably too late.

What's his percentage of temp to hire?

4:12 'That's what would happen at Ramsey' - zero tolerance for not meeting expectations (or getting pregnant out of wedlock).

Protect your team. Protect. Your. Team.

This is a business decision. You have to decide whether the problems you have with her way of working are serious enough to be worth losing your best revenue earner. If the problems aren't preventing her making money for your business, you need to consider whether those procedures are actually needed. You say she isn't doing follow-ups. The purpose of a follow-up is to generate revenue. If she's generating a lot of revenue, then she's apparently doing the follow-ups she needs to. You need to make sure you aren't enforcing rules just for the sake of enforcing rules. Documentation is a little different, since documentation doesn't bring in revenue now, but prevents problems in the future. You should look at whether the documentation you are asking her to do is actually necessary and, if it is, whether it can be made quicker and easier. You can also look at whether the documentation can be delegated to someone else. Other employees not being happy with the rules not applying to her is easy to deal with. Either you figure out that the rules aren't needed and stop applying them to everyone else or you figure out that the rules aren't needed for her because she can get results doing things her own way and you tell the others that you'll cut them slack too if they start bringing in as much as she does.

“Go ahead and fire her.” - Dave I hope she starts her own company to compete with him. That would temper support for Dave Ramsey’s bluster.

I think it depends on how work is actually going for her. Ive definitely have had a bad manager before that just didnt like me and made it her goal to tell the store owner about all these lies about me. I was the 2nd top sales person in the store, and you want to lie to the owner about me? I just decided to get a new job. I found a place that pays me more and it has NONE of the drama that this lady caused. Bad managers will lie and gossip about you if they dont like you. No matter how hard you try, you cant please them.

Bosses so often neglect to even consider the corroding effect of letting select people get away with stuff, on the backs of people working their butts off. What they don't notice is the hard workers often leave precisely due to this crap, or let their results slide down to the sucker's level, because why bother. Plus the morale, joy and pride of being with that company, all gone. Just to please that one lazy person that's constantly sick on Mondays.

I have had to fire a handful of people so far in my 1 year management career. It’s never fun. It can be sad. However, when you fire the people like this guy is dealing with, the remainder of your team respects you and the business so much more because they know you care about the success of the business and everyone there that cares.

how about a non pay suspension 1st???

Almost sounds from what he said that it may be worth hiring someone to your team whose job is to take care of the paperwork items that this person is struggling with...they could do it for all members of the team, maybe free up time to allow them all to better engage with clients and generate more than enough extra business to justify the position.

is it will or skill???

Hire 6 more like her if shes the best!!!

She does the most important part of the job better than everyone. Is there really no way to adjust the process to make it less onerous?

A PIP is one thing but it’s not an actual disciplinary write up which should have happened along time ago and still be within reason and protocol. It doesn’t sound like he took that step. He was banking on her changing with the PIP and now she is out of hand because he waited too long to address her behavior. Management looking for work arounds to avoid dealing with actual conflict only works part of the time. This is a pet peeve of mine. Management styles like this have meetings with entire teams to address behaviors that are only coming from one person to avoid dealing with the one person. If management won’t deal with it other team members will start leaving.

Make sure you have witness with you when you fire her or you could place yourself in a situation where she could later make false accusations of how and why she was let go.

Fire her and she will be taking all those clients with her.

The whole point of a PIP is to change your performance or you are out.

Something about this caller makes me not trust him.

She needs an assistant dude!

this flies in complete conflict with Lencioni's Working Genius framework IMO. this employee may just be doing work shes not suited for and needs to be placed in a different role or given responsibilities more in line with her strengths.

Why not have one of the recruiters just handle the follow up and documentation’s?

Is there another position where she could be successful? Maybe think about this as a situation where this is not a good fit for her. She has many positive assets, but the requirements of this position are not being met.

I’d want to understand if this is (1) lack of skill or knowledge that can be trained on; (2) lack of willingness which is an issue; (3) lack of bandwidth. My gut from caller suggests she is bringing real value to the company and perhaps the role has evolved and grown and she’s move business development and not having bandwidth or other capacity for the lower level stuff. I’d consider reviewing the overall team and the revenue/business growth to see if there is introspection that may be valuable towards the business as a whole. Do you perhaps need to provide support to some of these more senior roles that clearly have client traction and clearly seem to bring in revenue.

This guy also mentioned that many people said he expects too much (or something along those terms). I think there is more to the story.

Honestly I think Dave might be wrong because he hasn’t listened to both sides.

This call right here is the prime reason why you should NEVER be loyal to a company. She excels at particular things and has clear strengths that benefits your business, but because they aren't perfect, you're going to fire them.

Always 3 sides to a story.

She’s not a detailed person. She’s a sales people person.

Young people probably have no idea who Pigpen is lol

Sees like his story changed. First she was a rainmaker and then she was average. Which one is it?

I always love (sarcasm) how Management, Owners, and other Upper folks just assume and demand that everyone should do everything. This guy admits she’s the best at her job that they’ve ever found, so he’s going to fire her for not doing paperwork right. Here’s an idea; HIRE HER AN ADMIN ASSISTANT! Plenty of people love to do that kind of work, and most creatives or socials DO NOT. Cut this crappy drudgery from her list of duties, and she’ll soar even higher. So would your other Recruiters. I tell ya, with advice like these folks are giving, it’s amazing any businesses succeed at all.

Top earner but average makes no sense

If she generates the most income then she's busy doing her job

Not a benevolent fund, not good for that person either to come to work and struggle + let everyone down. Everyone needs to move on, bad management to leave it. Failed managers do this. 3 strikes and your out, help support and move on. That’s it.

"I have a fake company that doesn't produce anything, but we game the system in a way that brings in millions. One of my employees is able to get people to give us a lot of money. But she's not following my made up rules that are completely unconnected with earnings. . Should I fire her?"

I swear I've worked for several companies like this. Dave is correct. The rest of the team gets beyond frustrated and had no respect for leadership. The main caveat is a lot of time those bad employees weren't even good at their jobs. Bosses don't understand how much one employee not working well with the team can demotivate the others. Now, this guy needs to think about whether the company is getting value out of her doing the paperwork. Maybe the recruiters are far better at just the recruiting and more valuable to the team specifically doing that. Then you have another team or few employees that aren't good at recruiting but good at the paperwork. Say she brings in $200k in profit per year to the company. You can hire someone at $40k to do the paperwork, maybe it isn't worth it to let her go. There are 2 sides to this story.

If the customers love her so much, they will take their business somewhere else when she's fired.

Im good with firing her . But how is she average but also your best ? Maybe you are wrong about what average performance is in the role .

This man is about to loss 30% of his revenue

Maybe his business model is wrong. Hire an admin to free up recruiters to do what they do best.

Been there. Let her go and drag down another companies team. Your Team will fire up, and use it as a point to tell your team you made the change to respect what THEY do! It also resets your expectations to your own team, and reinforces YOU appreciate what THEY do when they follow your procedures! before you let her go, you gather her client list, and have it ready to be reassigned to the other Team members... and same day, you have them reach out for new introductions as that companies NEW rep. They dont comment on the fired person, just say they are no longer there, and "I" am your new rep. Also send a follow up hand written letter to each client affected letting them know who the new contact person will be.

A week later in the newspaper: Woman in Detroit goes postal in office. Nobody can figure out why.

Not enough info on the deficiencies, but I heard the part where the area she effectively covers is hard to fill. Disclosure to the world: I am not good at day to day stuff, but BY GOD I am good at the hard stuff. Thankfully we work around my deficiencies and play to my strengths just as I do with staff I am responsible for. The challenge that I have not tolerated is if this employee is a jerk or sends toxic emails that are not well thought out or other stuff that causes more widespread harm that undoes the values of her good work. It is for this reason that with my own deficiencies (and hard to replace strengths), I am DAMN NICE to people and voice gratitude when someone pings me on some mundane item I am slow on. No matter how effective someone is, I am a strong believer in every organization having a "No Knucklehead Policy".

"Hey Dave, I got the most excellent person who does things no one else can, but she's bad at something other people find easy to do." Dave: Fire her.

I would like to see debt free scream segments for entrepreneurs on EntreLeadership.