I load mine with hens teeth. Since they have been easier to find than a can of trailboss.

My first thought was with that light powder load, the bullet wouldn't have made it out the barrel. Really surprised how well it worked.

"It depends", my favorite answer for everything

I think that the reason that we went with the "you must never" approach on things like this is because its easier to manage from the Nanny State approach. I have run with many sticks and am just fine.

With my .50-70 Sharps Carbine, which is a newer gun. I was using a light charge of Unique which is in most reloading manuals, and work well for the Lyman 450 grain bullet I was getting from Montana Bullet Works. I didn't have a chronograph at the time to measure it, but I can tell you that the from the recoil and shooting it, the smokeless Unique load is tame compared to a case with even only 62 grains of FFG Goex in it. The nice thing about that tame Unique .50-70 load in my Sharps is that at 100 yards it drops the bullet right in nicely on the target consistently and I doubt a deer would really know the difference exactly how fast that bullet smacks him when that 450 grain load gets there. One of the things I do when I load a case with smokeless powder each and every round since I don't load in huge volumes and I have done this for years for my own piece of mind is that I weigh all the components, the bullet, the primed case and of course the powder. I have that number written down so that when the cases are loaded, I weigh the loaded case. If that case somehow got undercharged or overcharged, it will show up there and then. Since I rarely load more than 20 cases or at the most, 50 at a time, this may take some time away from loading to do this, but it's a darn good way to make sure those cases are loaded correctly.

I load both smokeless and BP in 45-70. I use 405 grain polymer coated bullets (SNS) in both and shoot in my 1880s Trapdoor. For smokeless, I use Accurate 5744 powder and get about 1240 fps using load data for the Trapdoor. For BP, I use my own powder (which I learned to make using your videos!) and get about 1330 fps.

The 50-70 is a fine old timer. Elmer Keith spoke well of it, and its reliablilty for putting meat on the table. One of the biggest disadvantages to using smokles powder in antique arms intended for traditional black is, it tends to throw the sights off. I almost always get the best accuracy using black powder and loads that replicate original load data. Trail boss is a fine powder and can be tweaked a little bit for higher velocity. However, traditional black is generally much safer to use in antiques. Another great video, keep up the good work.

Great video! I use unique and 2400 in a lot of reduced, cast bullet rifle loads. (38-55, 45-70, 30-30 etc.) Although they were published loads in 50+ years ago they aren't recommended now. I think that's to compensate for careless reloaders more than anything else. The old loads shoot great.

I'm glad that it worked out well. As for me, every time I save enough money to buy a trapdoor, the prices go up so sadly, I guess I'll never get to try this. ☹

A addendum to reloading with smokeless in antique cartridge guns is to NEVER use jacketed bullets. Only use lead bullets. Jacketed bullets produce a different pressure curve that will possibly/probably result in a very bad day.

I used to have an 1868 trapdoor 50-70, and I used IMR 4198 behind a Lyman 425 gr bullet. The old formula was 30% for black, which comes out to 20 grs. I used 20 grs and never experienced any problems. The recoil was lighter than BP, and it gave satisfying low boom.

I always load for the weekest gun. So i end up with alot of 38s&w top break loads and 4570 trap door loads. That way i know i can stuff them in anything on the shelf. Also if you get hit by a bus the family doesn't have a time bomb

Fun video to watch! Back in the 1980s-90s, for about 10 years or so, I had a Springfield contract 50-70 rolling block. The thing had an over-size bore as compared to what the bore was supposed to be. It would keyhole a bullet sized at .515 with a full load of black powder. I slugged the bore and I think it came out at .520 or so. I tried duplex loads that I got from a magazine back then, and I shot slow loads with IMR4198, SR4759, and with Unique, both of those loads were less than starting loads from the old 46th edition Lyman reloading manual. The slow loads didn't keyhole. According to my old notes, I also shot a fair amount of Pyrodex through it. I made the mistake of selling the rifle in the mid 1990s, still kick myself about that mistake.

Thank you. There are still people who have not forgotten how to use their brains.

I agree with you, and have done so in mine without issue, with mostly cream of wheat filler, but very low pressure and obviously very safely.

Great stuff and thanks for taking the time to try this. Those SDs you were getting are GREAT given the fact that that little pinch of powder is rolling around in that huge case. 12 grains of Unique is what I use in 45-70 under a 400 or 535 gr 1-20 bullet. I don’t get as good an SD as you got though. Maybe I’ll have to try Trailboss.

I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge sharing. I have learnt a lot from your channel already. I admit that when I started watching this video, I got a little nervous because I thought you were going to talk about how “safe” Trailboss is. Thankfully, you didn’t go there. We have guys at our local club raving about how “SAFE” it is to use in old guns. Look at the reloading tables from ADI (the Australian manufacturer ) and you soon see that their charges of Trailboss are limited by PRESSURE not VELOCITY. For cartridges like 30/30 ( that are built for it) you can achieve considerably higher velocity from less pressure by using a slower powder. Trailboss is an extremely fast burning powder. IMO it is good for reduced power ( velocity) loads and you can get away with using it in old guns if you know what you are doing and understand how it works. You are using a very small amount of propellant which’s burns very fast to generate a safe amount of pressure but not a lot of gas ( not much chemical equals not much gas) Compare this with black powder which uses a lot of propellant, producing lots of gas but it’s slow so the pressure stays low as the bullet moves down the bbl. Also beware that you could easily double charge ( or worse) a cartridge with Trailboss. I think about it like this, those air cannon bowling ball launchers dump a ton of air behind the ball but it’s only 100 psi. It’s pushing all the way to the end of the bbl. A baseball bat delivers a heap of pressure to the ball in the blink of an eye but once it’s hit, there’s no more push. Constant gentle push vs impulse. Thanks for your work, I love your channel.

WOW what a blast form the past.......... I bought a trap door at a garage sale back in the early 80's and shot black powder and it worked just fine but when looking threw very old reloading books I found some data (1920-1940) and here it is /// IMR 3031 @ 36 grains with a 405 grain single grove flat point . I have been shooting this load since 1983 and about 5000+ rounds later still going strong about 1200 /1250 FPS Alan Thomas

Saw an interesting video about the first smokeless powder, gun cotton, firearm. Not the label. It was an Austrian muzzle loader in the mid 1860's. They did it by putting a rod in the back of the bullet as a spacer. The gun cotton, nitro cellulose, was a fabric wrapped around the stick behind the bullet. The "cartridge" was one unit. Slide it down the barrel. Fires with a percussion cap. Worked very well and it was safe. The project was dropped when a small magazine, think bunker, blew up. They were still learning how to make it stable. I'm thinking a sabo with a rod on the back for spacing and you could have a smokeless muzzle loader.

Man that consistency is great, also gotta love subsonic acoustics.

Nice Video and nice consistency there with Trailboss. I was quite surprised how low you could go with the powder weight and how it remained accurate in your (probably 1:42 twist). I Used 15 grains in my M1867 Rolling Block and that was real accurate but I'll slow it down a lot more thanks to your 9.5grain experience and I want to conserve my Trailboss because, as you said, they don't make it any longer. A tub of Trailboss will cost you $1000 here in Australia compared to the pre-madness price of about $130. Blackpowder is unobtainable so it is strictly a home-made proposition where I come from. As for the maker of Trailboss (ADI), I wrote them and they claimed that they WOULD make it again but they screwed up their own manufacturing plant due to gross incompetence and it might be a few more years but they also screwed up the manufacturing of all pistol and shotgun powders and at the same time America had some supply issues and now won't sell powder to Australia so local importers are slowly swapping over to importing European powders like Vectan. In the meanwhile we buy cases of 12 gauge cartridges to extract the powder for pistols and also experiment with the lowest loads we can manage so your very nice video came at a good time and I hope others will use it. I personally swapped my main Cowboy cartridges from 44WCF to 32WCF so I only use about half the powder and I really like that little cartridge.

Subscribed! I’m more impressed that you got all 70 grains of black powder in there. I think I get about 55 grains (by volume) of 2f and you can really hear the powder crunch down. I also just posted my 1866 trapdoor in 50-70 video on my shorts feed!

I’m withholding comment as I sit back and listen to the faint sound of heads exploding over this video’s title.

Tin star powder works great for big early bp cartridges and so does buckhorn 209 meant for muzzleloaders

Good video Jake I enjoyed watching y'all plinking thank you sir

Great Video! I have been playing around with smokeless in my original Marlin Ballard Pacific in 50-70. I am finding that the smokeless load I have developed is far more accurate then my best black powder load out to 300 yards. You are correct the speed of the bullet is far less in smokeless, but the fun and accuracy level is right there in shorter distances. If I was shooting at 1000 yard target, I would use black in my rifle. Keep up the good work!

You guys seem to have a really good time. That is some pretty country you shoot in.

Trail Boss! Love the stuff, I use it all the time. Fudds are rolling over in their graves whenever you put out a new video and I love that too! haha Excellent!

I have a couple smokeless loads for 45-70, and the one performs sub moa in my 1884, which was a pleasant surprise. I did a lot of research and interacted with the old timers at castboolit forum before I worked them up. I also use Alox on top of regular lube in the grooves just because I'm ocd about it. For a BP substitute I'm running Triple 7, dropping the charge 15%. It performs well enough if I want the smoke effects. It's plenty available and does better than Pyrodex I found.

Wonderfully consistent and accurate smokeless load! If one wanted reduced recoil and fouling using a powder that is low-pressure & safe in original BP firearms, APP is a viable choice. I normally shy away from subs, but in a pinch, I have used it and been pleased with the results. I load 44WCF for a friend with a late 19th century Colt Frontier Six-Shooter using Trail Boss...just over 720 FPS with a 200 grain bullet, so that is right in line with what you got in your 50-70. I use 5744 in my "Quigley" Sharps 45-70...great powder in large capacity cases, as it isn't position-sensitive, gives small ESs, even with starting loads, and it's easy to match original BP velocities (important on guns with sights regulated for the "old loads").

This is really cool great video for my work break thanks man👍😁

I like shooting Rolling blocks. Mine are proofed for smokeless (up to a point). I find shooting a round of smokeless after a BP session gets most of the fouling out

You are a pretty good marksman. You are also on the mark when you suggest that accountability is lacking in the current age. If the gun explodes, it is likely that the loader overloaded the cartridge. Thank you for putting together such fine content.

Some 25-30 years ago Ross Sefreid wrote into an article smokeless Reloader 15 at 30% or such of the black powder load for a given cartridge and fill the rest of the case with kapok stuffing. Lube and card the bullet. This was for large rifle cartridges. I'm just remembering so don't use that as a formula.

Awesome video. I use 10 grains of unique behind the lee 500 grain cast lead lubed with white label xlox (same as alox just cheaper and thicker so it covers easier) in a second allin trapdoor... giving me 950 fps. It's a sweetheart of a load and pretty accurate.

I saw so many smokeless old revolver way weaker than a Peacemaker ,and I was thinking " what a bullshit"

I use Trail Boss in my 45-70s if i am deer hunting with them and need to travel . Otherwise I prefer using Black Powder. I don't want the bores to rust if I stay in a motel and can't clean them.

It looks like a great deal of fun!

I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers and other black powder guns for years. I recently got a conversation cylinder for one of my revolvers. I have been using some factory loaded cowboy cartridges, and now I have a bunch of empty shells. So, I decided to start reloading with smokeless powder. I was surprised to find how little smokeless powder per grains you use compared to black powder or any of the substitutes. I can see if you use 25 to 30 grains of smokeless powder in a black powder revolver, you will blow it up. With the powder that I am using, it takes between 5 and 6.2 grains for a .45 Colt cartridge. I loaded some up using a Lee dipper, and they fired way too hot for my gun. So I weighed out how much powder that scoop measured, and it was between 7.5 and 8.5 grains. Lessen learned weigh your powder.

The trailers was keeping your velocity under Mach which makes it most accurate... predictable and delivering death to buffs at your range

TrailBoss is the beginning cowboy shooter's choice. The best thing about it is it is fluffy so you have a hard time double charging it in a 45 colt or 38 special. It is intended to keep cowboy reloaders safe. Good powder for its intended use.

From the shot to the impact reminded me of shooting my bow that far lol. Awesome video

I agree 100% on your statement about people and taking responsibility :)

The trapdoor action is actually really strong, the army converted some of them to .30-40 as a control rifle when trialing for a new rifle.

50-70 is an awesome cartridge. Hopefully the brass starts becoming more available.

1:44 "using black powder like God intended" If not so, then why did Francis Bacon give us black powder? Excellent video!

Buffalo rifle by shooters world is a great substitute for black, all one needs to do is keep velocities similar to black, and you are fine. I use home made cards and cotton to fill the gap in the smokeless 50/70 rounds I have made and shot a lot of in my 1866.

I have a Martini-Henry MkIV that was converted to .50-70 I believe as a smith school project. The barrel is a cut down and thinned down M2 . Im able to give .50-70 the same spicy smokeless treatment the .45-70 got!

I had a cousin that would use smokeless in his 1873 Springfield trapdoor and he always loaded it a bit hot.

I load both trailboss and 5744, but not why you think. 45 colt 6.5gr of trailboss pushing a 225gr RNFP to 750fps in a SAA clone and 900fps in a carbine keeps the leading down. 5744 is so versatile it can load ruger only 45, high speed115 and 168gr 308, and do a reduced or workup load in whatever. 5744 is slower than trailboss, but heavy pills need that for timing. It even helped me develop my 45 mongo.

Nice shooting! Nive to see someone who can think outside the box when it come to shooting smokeless powder in a black powder handgun or rifle. And everything you said was spot om on how the pressure of smokeless powder vs. Black powder work. I and my dad accidentally load black powder in 243 Winchester. Surprisingly they were super accurate. But we knew it right away when we got the poof of smoke out the end of the barrel. So we ended up pulling the bullets and reloading them with 4895. My dad and I learned learned a big lesson from this also, make sure you label the can if you put something others than what it says in it. 😂😂😂 no it not a laughing matter. But if you can't laugh about it, your not living. Love the video. Wish i would have kept my allen conversation 50/70 everytime I see one of your videos. Awesome shooting!

If you like Lee Liquid Alox trying mixing it with Johnson Paste Waste and Mineral Spirits 45: 45: 10. For a small batch like yours I like to dip lube. I heat some lube in a small cat food tin, get the bullets warm and dip them with plyers. It will fill the groves and lot leave much excess if your boolits are warm.

Thanks for sharing suprizing consistensy

It's strange to me that people use very fast powder in antique firearms. You would think a higher charge of some nice slow burning powder between h110 and 8208xbr would be ideal

Great video thank you 👍👍

that was AWESOME long distance shooting while standing, my biggest weakness is standing prone, keep ur powder dry😁

About not wearing ear plugs……. Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say. I remember when I visited my grandmother in town, and she dropped some serious wisdom on me. She said, “Grandson, one day some people will waste their time reading your comment.” Today is that day.

I use IMR-3031 in the 1873 springfield trapdoor under a 405gr jacketed flat point.

As long a you keep the pressure down where it belongs, preferably with a pressure curve more similar to gunpowder. They'll recoil a lot less than an equivalent BP load. As always, don't be dumb, and you'll not die from having a gun explode in your hands.

TrailBoss load sheet says IF you don’t compress it then it’s safe for all cartridges. Says it right on the sheet. I haven’t had good results with TrailBoss yet as in haven’t hit an accuracy node with anything I’ve tried it in. Doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist I just haven’t found it for that powder, bullet, primer, cartridge and firearm combination I’ve tried it in. I have learned to be cautious sharing load data and don’t share my data with everyone instead when possible which manual I got it from and the published range from that manual. I figure there’s a reason they’ve cut data back from older manuals by same companies. If I share my load it’s with someone who can realize if it’s not at start they need to work up looking for what load suits their firearm and components best.

450 grain bullet at the speed is still pretty nice. Basically a .45 ACP with nearly 2x the bullet weight. Black powder is best for performance in these old guns though, smokeless powder didn't even exist when that rifle was made.

Even though its lighter load than a full power load it seems to still pack quite a punch, over 600 ftp. Could be great load for varmints like coyotes.

The chemistry of Trail Boss is interesting, and not well known in the shooting community. It is sort of a hybrid of smokeless and black powder type chemistry. It is based on "semi-smokeless" powder chemistry developed shortly after the turn of the 19th century, IIRC it is comprised of nitrocellulose, charcoal, and a mixture of nitrates (barium nitrate sounds right to me), I don't remember is any sulfur is added but it would not surprise me. There is nothing new under the sun right? The original purpose of semi-smokeless was to control the corrosiveness of smokeless powder (the corrosiveness was actually due to corrosive primers, but it was not realized at the time. Corrosive percussion caps worked fine with black powder because the corrosive oxides were diluted by black powder residue, the semi-smokeless worked to reduce corrosion, after a fashion, for the same reason). There is an expensive black powder substitute that advertises clean burning which is similar technology to Trail Boss - its manufacturer keeps well hidden the fact that it burns clean because it is based on smokeless powder chemistry, ie it is on a fundamental level smokeless powder, in the same way that Trail Boss is.

In my mind it's all about pressure not powder, therefore 5 grains of smokeless Winchester is the same as 25 grains-ish of black powder......... Back around 09 I was shooting 45 colt reloads loaded by a Lee reloading machine in my 1858 Rem with conversion cylinder when one shot split my cylinder and broke the gun, one lesson learned is always stand behind someone shooting a revolver........ Another lesson learned was no more reloading with smokeless Winchester powder unless one has a top of the line reloader that will NOT accidently double charge a shell. Trouble is I cant afford a 5k reloader so the next best way to prevent double charge of powder in 45 colt is Trail Boss, now it's impossible to double charge a shell. So I bought two big jugs back then and still have most of it today, good thing to because like you say they dont make it anymore......................... Now since they no longer make Trail Boss smokeless powder, and one day I do run out of TB, and have to go back to Winchester powder, and accidently double charge another shell, and blow my gun up again...... I will sue the the gun powder industry for not making TB powder for all damages and hurt feelings, I will also sue Everything Black Powder for not giving me some TB powder and I will also blame Trump.................. Now the question is, how long will Trail Boss powder last or what is the shelf life of Trail Boss powder when it is kept in broken fridge in basement????????

I have seen others do similar with the.44 and .36 I know it can be done Still awesome 😮

Trail Boss is smokeless with the umpf taken out of it. I heard if you spin the can clockwise it takes some of the umpf away and spinning it counter-clockwise adds nothing.

By gum I got a good chuckle this morning. A fad was good. My only critique if you want to call it that is, you lost the opportunity for a great punch line. Part of the fun of cleaning BP is the added spice in your life when you're significant other first detect the hint of sulfur in the air. Good video Mountain man

I shoot smokeless hot loads in my 1887 Winchester 12g as the action is bullet proof and the barrels are the same as on the 1893 and 1897 just have 2 more revolutions of threath and diffent cut out for the extractors. Plus i always use 70mm 2 3/4th shells without a issue.

Trail Boss is good stuff and works in a ton of different cartridges. Ever try it in a muzzleloader, probably too hard to ignite.

I love all the engineers here! It wasn't designed for it

That reminds me of a load a bubby of mine developed for his 257 Roberts. He could hunt squirrel with it and not tear the crap out of them. It would just go pop, if you could call something like that cute. Well maybe not but it was fun as hell.

unfortunately Trail Boss is no longer available but i have used a lot and it is a very good low pressure powder. Hodgdon shows data on their reloading data site.

Great video as always Sir!! For myself, I just see that these old guns should just be shot with true black for the nostalgic purpose, but if one wants to run smokeless loads through their old gun, that’s their business, but just do it with reduced low pressure loads so as to keep your fingers and face where they currently are. When I first got my 1884 Trapdoor, I myself loaded a few reduced smokeless loads from load data for a trapdoor and they ran just fine. But today, I prefer the Black Stuff. 👍

A potential danger with using smokeless powder is that it only takes a moment of distraction to double charge a case. One time in a thousand is all it takes for disaster. I have a collection of antique rifles and use Pyrodex RS in loading for them. It uses a full case of powder like black powder, is more available, and not quite as dirty or volatile. The gun still requires a good cleaning though. If you want to use smokeless, I recommend weighing the finished round to see if one is much heavier than the rest. It could indicate an overload.

Thank you.

Great info, Jake! I've been tempted to try Trail Boss in some of my antique cartridge firearms, but since you mention that it's no longer in production, I suppose the point is moot. In my very early Winchester 1894, I have used IMR 3031 in reduced loads with a 255 grain hard cast bullet, and with delightful success. Very pleasant to shoot, and accurate as well. I once harvested a grouse at 55 paces with a shot to its head, LOL ! (Lyman tang peep sight, factory original.) Thanks for the video!

Same boat. It can be done safely and regularly. However, most people are too lazy to do the work and get it what is called the right way

I run plinking loads with trailboss in my Webley RIC 442's. Works great. But sadly, the TB has become unobtanium.

That Trail Boss might be turtle slow, but seems really consistent in both speeds and hits.

Some pretty impressive shooting. I love shooting the trapdoor.👍🏻

I've been sitting on a 1/4 jug of trailboss for 2 years. It's sad

Good video, personally I will take the more powerful BP loads over the wimpy smokeless loads. Great firearm.

Man, I wish there was a pound of trailboss to buy for love or money.

Please make cork wood black powder, I want to see how it compares to balsa wood black powder in terms of burn rate, cleanliness and whether it's cheaper than balsa.

trail boss is good but it has to be done right, Ive done 455 webley mk1 cases 50-90 sharps, 38 s&w not special, 303 british was interesting.

It should not be an issue for the tight lock up of 1868 trapdoor. Any gun with small moving parts or strange headspace methods will almost always fail over time.

There is one smokeless canister powder that is supposed to more or less duplicate black powder's pressure curve - it is the powder that is recommended for use in the Savage smokeless muzzle loader (was that the Savage 10-ML?). The powder was, I think, AA xmp-5744. I haven't tried it so you are entirely on your own though, do your own research and be responsible for your own safety, since I'm sure not responsible for it!

Been wondering what smokeless load would be good for my knight bighorn magnum rated .50BP. Heard of 180bp loads and I have shot 150bp shot but shoot 125 on the regular, like to mix White lighting pellets with 75 bp for a 125 shot. The white lighting really clears the fowling out. Just expensive.

Excellent shooting BTW! Those 50/79’s are fun to shoot, but they burn up the lead!

As usual an interesting, informative and educational video - I'm glad to say that, now I don't have to go make my own damn video! 😁

With these smokeless load on the long range target you can hear the hiss of the bullet as it flies away LOL!

Snider with smokeless is a bad idea most are converted enfield rifles muskets and the case capacity doesn’t really allow for it. Trailboss has also caused huge pressure spikes in the martini Henry it’s burn rate is close to bullseye.

Absolutely you can use smokeless, but you’re really missing out if you do so. Takes about 80% of the fun out of shooting these old rifles. I have had two Sniders that were shot quite a bit with smokeless, and it did cause some damage to the Mk. III. The breechblock was battered to the point it jammed the locking pin in the block.

Let this be a less a few weeks ago I was shooting my flintlock & forgot to close my powder container a spark hit it & I now have 2 degree burn on most of my hand & forearm

I’d be interested to know if you have any thoughts about the strength of model 1866 (2nd Allen conversion) Springfield trapdoors compared to the 1868 trapdoors? I think My 1866 is a bit longer 3-band barrel,same length as my 1861 and 1863 Springfields. The bore is still minty shiny clean without pitting and I have an irrational fear of corroding it from shooting black powder in it.

My gut says RUN! or WHY? But then again "I" still want one Bad!

I'm assuming that 50/70 had a filler between the bullet and the powder to prevent a HUGE air gap?

I REALLY LIKE Your Channel 😁😁😁/ U make some P. . . 🤯💨 😎🤙

I can hear the Keyboards just pounding away from this video. This is a very interesting subject. I agree, I am just waiting for this smokeless fad to pass, and everyone going back to black powder. Wow, the consistency of those loads. Just like you said. Taking responsibility is a thing that is rare these days. Why do I feel the crisco kid is going to be in the comments soon. 😂

WTH!! Dang, Im down to 4 cans of T.B. The last can that I purchased was $17.99. P.S. nice shoot'n.