Hi Adam, Ian again from New Zealand. I commented on an earlier video about insert tolerance versus surface finish. The insers you are using from Walter, the SDMT, is not a precision ground insert as the tolerance is 'M' which is quite wide if you are chasing a finish.. Also those inserts dont have a wiper flat on them as it shows a 08 or 1/32 corner rad so this won't won't be helping either. The SDMT inserts will have a honed edge on them from the factory and if your chip thickness is not above the size of the hone you are effectively cutting on the radius of the hone and the chip is not getting onto the top rake face of the insert.There are lots of things to consider when altering feeds and speeds as this changes the chip thickness as well. I hope this helps. Cheers Ian

Thanks for the shout out Adam. Steve

As far as it goes for getting those mirror finishes in a CNC machine, think about it like this: "Anything you can do to make the material separate from the part easier" So high pressure coolant, well directed coolant flow, good coolant concentration, sharper edges on inserts (sharper by design, not like sharper from less wear, i.e. polished inserts, smaller nose radius,, etc.), running at the upper limit of Vc surface speed, very small depth of cut for finish pass of like .005". That is how you get those better than ground mirror finishes with zero presence of tool marks in a CNC. For what you were describing I would rough it for high MRR with your 1" high feed, leaving just .005, then finish with a sharp insert in your 2" facemill and have the 2" tool do nothing else except that finish pass.

Watching your journey through the CNC world is very interesting. Please keep making videos like this.

Stress relief.

Really interesting to see the small things coming good. Fascinating.

Nothing beats Abom79s videos, great pick me up after work!

I really like the look of the finish on the chamfer. Thanks Adam, for the video.

Hi Adam. One of the advantages of the Tallon Jaws + separate ‘bites’, is that the jaws can be touched up on a standard Surface Grinder. The Alligator Jaws on the other hand, need to be ground using a ‘dovetail’ wheel in a vertical spindle ( ie set up and dress a cup wheel in your mill spindle. The jaws will obviously need to be clamped with a parallel . I’d say the variation in the plane of the Talon Jaw ‘shelf’ areas is due to distortion when heat treated. Regards Robert

You are getting into it,Adam.Very pleased to see the results you are getting on the vise jaws.Thank you.

I use a ton of Walter tools at work and normally run the WKP35G grade at 850-1000 SFM, dry on steel and I get crazy tool life. If you're looking for a nice shiny finish it may help to kick your cutting speed up even if it's higher than the recommended specs. It also helps to use a different tool for roughing and finishing, not only do you get less wear on your finisher but you can put some wiper inserts in your finish tool.

cnc is so satisfying when you start to understand it, i now always do a demo run with tool 1/2" above z:0 when running a new code.....takes longer but saves you $$$s in the long run....ive destroyed hundreds of carbide endmills learning... run into the bed once...had stock fly out of the vice a few times....been drenched in coolant...had the whole shop raining milk...tripped the electrics....had to hit that big red button many times and hit the brake on the spindle...i levelled off a 120kg anvil in there once and had a light show like 5th november in london....had the machine dancing and tripping the stops...i lost that many steps i should of installed an elevator....but that was all my own self learning...i think your doing amazing Adam

I always got a super nice finish with face mills by running a shallow depth (0.005") and twice the feed and twice the RPM you would use otherwise. Always gave me a super nice bright finish, even on the crappy CNC import mill I use to use.

as others have said..you should have roughing mills and finish mills for each OP if you want the best finish over and over on each part...carbide doesnt last forever..you cant expect to hog and finish with the same mill ... be it end or shell...also get a proper finish face/shell mill

Really enjoy watching the videos with the new equipment.

I'm enjoying watching you make new items with the CNC mill. This is an amazing technology.

Sometimes you will start to drag chips through the cut, when your chip load gets too small. I think that is the dull finish on the face mill. Try cutting dry at about .007” per tooth, you could raise it up, for a trial.

Hey Adam it really cool to see your process of learning a new system and working process. Most of the machining I see on KZfaq is either years of experience or someone who doesn’t care about actually learning. Thanks for the great content.

Always enjoy your videos and the education I take from each. This made me think of the NIST measurement video I watched. Their level of measurement is mind blowing. Even light itself is factored out. Well worth the watch, if only for the knowledge.

Great video Adam really enjoy your videos. True master at what you do.

again thanks for the education and another fine Saturday nite

Good show ❤

In the shop i work at, when we are doing RIP finishes, we generally double the spindle speed, but drop our feed to 15IPM and take .005 for our finish pass, it works well for aluminum and stainless, as for the tool marks, they show up a lot more in stainless even at 15IPM. Still trying to dial it in personally for stainless but i do know that fresh inserts help a LOT with the finish, chipped or not.

I know the feelings. I took a job as a moldmaker into an established CNC shop. Luckily, they were tooled-up with MAHO CNC machines. Still, they were aggressive with CNC machining. No practice cuts and 'cutting air'. Good German Bosses. Learned a lot.

Hello! I from San jose , California in my experience, before you finish the surface, you loosen the clamp and then clamp it lighter, you try!

Found out yesterday, someone broke into my storage unit and got my tools.....Gerstner 2610 Journeyman Chest, almost full or Sterrett Mics and levels, a couple of Brown and Sharpe.....Kennedy 360 with 2602 & 2603 full of reamers, taps, drill bits, etc..... It hurts my soul all the history and stories those boxes and tools had went to some SOB for pennies on the dollar for a quck fix..... can't believe the replacement values of just those two units.... not to mention my g*nsmithing tools boxes they got.... trying to remember how many GO/NoGO/Field guage sets I had..... raise a glass/pint for me this weekend, my friends......

Looking good Adam. Personally I miss the manual machining content but it’s like the rest of the world I guess, technology and all… If I’m being honest it’s mostly to do with the simple fact I will never be in a position to stuff a CNC machine in my little two car garage. I’m perfectly happy with my mill and my lathe. It’s kinda hard for me to sit through a cnc operation video but I’ll keep checking back. Hope you have a good day sir.

Looking good, Adam. Always enjoy your content!

You do it right, to learn CNC. Greetings from Germany.

thank you Adam you're looking quite well these days if you are inspiring by pushing yourself unto that CNC thing good for you

I'm not anywhere near an expert in this stuff. To get those grooves in the surfacing cuts to go away, you might want to consider putting the cutter into a surface mill to get all the cutting edges the same height. But then again, some simple manual sanding could get rid of that type of finish. I'm sure Stefan Gotteswinter would have something to say about this .

It'd probably be better to put the jaws on the vise in the machine and put the indicator in the spindle and zero the Z at the indicator zero and check them in the machine. You have an error stack with the SMW plate and the vise and the jaw mounting to account for. That will tell you what's up. Also probably a good idea to load the jaws with a couple of 123 blocks when you take your measurement.

You mentioned that this plate had been flame cut. For the precision you are after, I'd think that they need to be normalized to remove the induced stresses.

Hello Adam. Something that also infuences the finish in facing operations, is the depth of cutt. Just like in turning operations.

I believe if it was in the jaws or the Abom clamp force your bevel on the outside radius should still line up. Because it is still under the clamping force and you just surfaced it. So I don't think that it's you or your set up. Thanks for taking us along and letting me learn along with you. Another great video!

cool stuff

Great finishes are done with slower feeds. For those who don't know. Just like the tighter wood are. The better a sanded finishes you'll achieve. Plus having a CNC diamond surface polishing bit in your arsenal is an absolute must have. 🤔🤔Hey Adam maybe just torquing the bolts on the jaws are pushing them out of paralle. Try leaving them just snugly bolted clamped on paralle than dial test. 👁👁See if that solves the issue.

If you're looking for a better finish remove half of your inserts. That always work for me.

kept watching expecting you to regrind the jaws. just a nice dusting could help. I've kinda found if the fixturing is off that the work is going to be at least double the error. some kinda luck or what ever.

learning is the fun part

I'm still pretty green on face mills but I have read and found through experiment that. Decreasing chip load is not always the answer for a good surface finish. Some times if the chip load gets too lite and the chips get too small the get caught in the face mill and smear the surface. What I have found helps is lower your SFM and increase you IPT. That has generally worked well for me. I have also heard that wiper inserts work wonders for super shiny finishes but have yet to try them on my own stuff.

Try a non optimized tool path either a spiral in or back and forth for a improved surface finish. Its possible you are experiencing internal material stress resulting in the .003 difference in thickness.

Maybe a couple of small jacks lightly tightened underneath would help with the finish? That's a fairly large part that is also thin and it may be bouncing up and down some.

I'll bet it is an inconsistent anodizing. That's why the edge is off. You get a radius there.

it would be so cool to see you do a side by side comparison of a part one with CNC and the other manual.

Not as good as your shaper. You'll get it. If anyone can figure it out, it's you.

Shoulder mill is not the same as face mill. I chased surface finish doing the same thing as you with a shoulder mill. You can make it work but you are going to have to go much higher on sfm and make sure you dont have any low hanging inserts.

I went to only using those talons on the first ops. Then drop down on ground parallels for additional oops. I’ve wondered if that was the planned usage.

You need to check to the squareness of the clamp surface of the jaw to the top. The check you’re doing is flatness not the actual clamp situation. Just a thought if you want accuracy.

Nothing new to you I'm sure but a few things I see machining 4130 hardened steel is stress relief, we stress relief before machining but even then if you try to machine equal amounts off both sides it usually turns out flatter. Also I was thinking if that was bolted down to a fixture or table instead of vice I think it would turn out flat, especially if you did some finish passes on both sides. I think about .015" finish pass gives good results for me. My $.02

If your part is not coming out true due to a vice jaw intolerance, depending on how you turn the piece over for Op2, you will double the error. Decreasing the feed rate is not always the answer to a good finish. It could be insert, coolant, or speed related. On a slightly different tack; Your machine was brand new when installed. It has now been 'run in'. Have you checked the gibs.

Adam, you are certainly more experienced than myself in the machine shop but in my few years it's always been speed up the spindle, slow down the feed rate and take a couple thou for a finish pass. I'm sure I ain't telling ya nothing ya don't know but can always try a different coolant altogether (something a little more slippery). Also, I always thought .002 was the target chipload? Prolly a moving target but that's what I always taught in the makerspace. GL man, as always totally enjoy your videos. Making me very much miss my access to the CNC machines.

I love my Mitee Byte jaws - I have the 4 to 6 inch version, they are my "go to" for first op work. I would be interested to know the height consistency of the set of Te-Co vices (the base where parallels would sit). I have a pair of matching Glacern vice and two sets of the same parallels which match pretty closely as I recall. This seems to work well when using two vices to hold the same work piece. Regarding the machining tool paths, if you use a contour machining op you could, for example, get a much more consistent tool pattern on that plate with one center key. I'd be surprised if that wasn't part of the conversational programing - and it can only improve the surface finish. The side with 2 keys might require a contour around the key on each side and a facing operation between the keys. Leaving some stock around the keys and finish off with that 1/4" endmill. That really is a nice surface plate :)

It is not the hight of the jaws its the stress inside the stock material must be tempered before machining.

There are a lot of details that need to be worked out when you introduce new equipment and new machining processes, You have to make sure that your tools are within tolerance of the manufactured specs and then work on your process to understand what your capabilities are.

Does anybody know why the CNC makes these funny curbed paths instead of straight lines? Is there an option to set path alternatives so it prefers straight lines?

If you want a nicer finish, put it in your shaper.

You'll get down to second nature. Going from manual to CNC is just going to take time. Just like manual machining, it took time. I know you will do it. You are to smart to be defeated. It took me years to become a good electrician. So if I can learn you will to. Very proud of your progress. Winners never quit, n quitters never quit. And I know you are not a quitter.

Do they recommend flood coolant on the Walter inserts? I use almost exclusively Kennametal or Ingersoll and usually never use coolant. I’ll use through air instead

Do a zero-degree lead in at a corner for outside features. You won't get the "bump"

After tramming the vice, then tramming the tops of the jaws installed, would be beneficial to skim the tops of the jaws on the machine to gain the parallel & flat surface consistency?

You can only get that mirror finish with a surface grinder.

if you cannot get rid of the tool marks on the fixture plate, maybe you can create a tool path that creates a more desirable pattern, maybe stepped circles that result in a flower petal pattern or something ?

Hey Adam, Your knowledge, skill, and presentation skills are awesome! The company could not afford to sell the jaws if made to the tolerances you and I would like. 😉 An old boss once told me that splitting tenths is like picking fly poop out of pepper! 😜

CNC or no, there's no getting around the fundamentals of inspection.

What changes occur once inserts are torqued in the jaws.

I know nothing about machining but what I see in this sort of video. With that said, for the wild holographic looking finishes, would it be possible to clean it up I just doing parallel passes? Would that be cutting away too much of the metal? Just curious.

Adam, Do they make some sort of a buffing wheel to go over something with to shine it up

Wow, you're learning fast! Go Adam!

I wish you would have put your new big pieces on the Starrett surface top and indicated them. I’m not taking any jabs at you Abom, just curious to see what the indicator would show. Also, when you, someone who cares about this precision tolerance, finds something wrong… you will go to great lengths to solve the mystery. I’m sure you will figure it out. Thanks for the wonderful content. 👍

Adam, with a CNC machine couldn't you do a final finish and do a jeweled design like on a high end rifle bolt?

When I clamp wide parts, it will usually bow up in the middle, making the middle thinner. Could this be happening here?

Probably won't make any difference functionally, but I thought about using a radius cutter instead of the 45 degree one for the chamfers?

And maybe the holes are the measure from point not the base. Seems Interesting.

Even with those tweaks, you're still running that automatic shortest-path feature you described, aren't you? That's what seems to make the irregular pattern on your practice piece. You could do much better manually, if turning that feature off and programming a pseudo-manual tool path isn't better. Or is there no such mode?

Is the finish tool path the same as the roughing tool pass? A finishing tool path differing from the roughing tool may produce a better finish to the final product. Can you scrap in the Talon jaws?

Could you run them through the surface grinder and maintain flatness and get a better finish?

Seems like you could get a better finish by going back and fourth on the bottom side, than the half moon passes on the bottom side. I am not sure if the program is auto generating that tool path but seems like it could be more efficient. I think the tool path making squares like cutting a yard from the out side in seems to be giving you the bad finishes. But if you could just make a pass and then pass back cutting in the opposite direction. I am no expert I am a woodworker that follows your cool work. But I am thinking of it like I would do with a router and flatten a wooden slab going back and fourth.

Not a machinist, but beginning hobby. Would seem to me that since you have 2 pair of tallen jaws. The second set could be used as a handy set of parallels under a large project like your fixture plates. At least it wouldn't be pushed down as it's milled. Could maybe have even less clamping pressure, maybe reduce upward bend and eliminate downward deformation under load. Just a thought, maybe it isn't the best idea, due to the half thou or .001 difference. Maybe it would try to rock around more?

What type of indicator are you using

i would run a fly cutter

👍🏻

Adam it’s pretty hard to bow that plate

One would think that for the money that you are paying for them jaws they would be closer in spec's then they are. 😢

Привет Адам, тебе пора приобрести плоскошлифовальный станок, это очень расширяет возможности.

Yeah them tool marks look like that thing went willy-nilly like it was just cutting wherever it felt like my no it's just the camera

With the CNC content, it would be much more interesting to see how you tweak/write the program rather than a cutter moving around

we can buy the indicator base？

Adam I know nothing about the c and c can you use a fly cutter on this machine

The whole time you were inspecting the camera was out of focus. Could not see the graduations on the Starrett indicator.

Wouldn’t you want to inspect the jaws while they are actually in the machine? Maybe they are moving slightly when bolted up? Honest question, I’m still learning, but that’s what went through my mind. Although you would certainly want to make sure they are still good by themselves and eliminate that variable. I dunno, just thinking out loud with my lack of knowledge. Thanks!

Hey Adam, personally I enjoy the manual machining, but this is O.K.too. Keep them coming.

692 feet a minute? LOL

I’m not a machinist, is there a reason to climb mill the chamfers? I’m sure I’ve been told but memory not working. 🙃

A half thou, over 6" could give you a few thou, over 20"

Crickets...

why don't you grind off the irregularities until there are none before you put them to use? if you don't, you will have to take into account that there are deviations with EVERY use

It would be nice if you could control the tool path better. The tool path on the first two tests almost looks random. It would look much better (IMHO) if the path first ran parallel to the key from the left side to the right side then adjacent to the key on the near and far ends just to the ends of the key. Continue milling off the edges before returning for the next pass. Overlap your passes %50 so that all cutting is done uniformly relative to the cutting head.

I don't understand why the machine is making arc passes.. It seems to me your actually making the cut path longer, extending cut length and thereby using up more cutter life.. The shortest path is a straight line.. It's also not contributing to your surface finish. Linear linear cut lines with minimal overlap always results in a smoother finish and is usually more aesthetically pleasing. It's also easier to polish or scrape, depending on the needs of the finished product.

Does lance has a surface grinder or Keith ruker