I still believe the BIGEST problem with pokemon us the Yearly release structure and the clear rushing of the series. They have the money to make a crazy expensive game but with out TIME they cant do anything with that money

I will forever defend that Gen 5 was peak in Pokémon’s fusion if a 3D world with 2D sprites, the 2.5D being the best way to feel like the world was big and vibrant while keeping a unique style.

Something you're missing about the backlsh for the modes being reused is that they used remaking the models from scratch as an excuse for cutting pokemon transferability. it wasn't because they reused them, but because they LIED about reusing them to justify less content. that was the entire point of the backlash.

I genuinely think that all the 3d pokemon stuff before gen 6 was actually pretty good. Stadium, Colossuem, XD: Gale of Darkness, and Battle Revolution all had pretty damn good animations that helped sell it. And I think I can actually pinpoint the number one thing I miss from those games. In those games, the pokemon react to getting hit. Gen 6 onward, the pokemon barely even react to getting hit.

Even though it wasn't that well sold, BW2 really had a lot of good content and stuff to do after completing the game... Plus that game was surprisingly challenging for Nuzlockes, even more so with Black version, which had HARD MODE...

There's no need to apologize for speaking facts.

Another thing to say about 2D games especially with gen 2 that the sounds that were used for the attacks were dynamic and memorable as well in a way, especially with moves like hyper beam in gen 2 or ice beam in gen 3.

Regarding the animations, I believe 3D Pokémon games could have been as good if not better than 2D Pokémon games if Game Freak bothered to fully utilise the potential for 3D rather than using it as a crutch.

As for my preference I do loke both 2D and 3D. The animated Black and White sprites were great. But I also love the Colosseum Style of Models. The idle animation may not be anything amazing but loke the attack animation knock my socks off truthfully. Look at your first partner in XD Gale of Darkness. That flashy little Eevee goes hard. I would love to see a combination of like Colosseum and Arceus style animation. I think that would be absolutely amazing

I always will defend that pokemon should go with 2.5 d HD, as octopath or triangle strategy. Much better than how they took the 3d

I always dreamed of a pokemon game that was 2d massive and sprawling with dungeons and multiple regions since if graphics arent the main focus the world cna be so much bigger and more fleshed out. Also a new battle system is direly needed

The biggest problems with the 3D models for me are the models and colours. Put simply, the poses in the older games were more dynamic and interesting. Gen 4 I feel like was when they really hit their stride with cool dynamic posing. Move to 3D and there are so many examples of downgrades, Typhlosion and the victims of "constantly flying syndrome" are prime examples. "But their attack animations are better" yeah but I'd rather my Pokemon always look ready to battle when in a battle. The colours are almost as big a problem. Remember Starmie's vibrant purple, what about Parasect's mushroom. These and many others for most of 3D Pokemon were desaturated and were worse off for it. Not to mention how many shinies were ruined. I just feel like Pokemon was firm in their footing with what they wanted from 2D and haven't fully found it yet in 3D.

One of the reasons why BW are my favourite games are the Pokemon animations. The Pokemon don't seem to be still and atually seemed like living organisms and not robots.

The Pokémon sprites used to be so expressive and I really feel like ILCA wanted to do that with BDSP but couldn'tsince they were rushed. Especially looking at the Pokédex and how some Pokémon were given their Diamond and Pearl spites in 3D form like Biberal actually sitting and looking goofy, but meanwhile in battle, it's just...standing there.

I think 3D is much better. The new friendship mechanics like pokemon amie, pokemon refresh, pokemon camp and pokemon picnics have increased the level of inmersion with your pokemon to the point where it´s not even a contest. It´s on a completely different level compared to sprites. You can play with them, you can feed them, clean them, heal them, bathe them, they can get close and interact with you directly, they can interact with each other and you can see /interact with more than one at the time and they even walk near you in the overworld. The pokemon have small reactions when they defeat a pokemon or when they´re just waiting for you to command the next attack, they can literally decide to join your team if they´re wild pokemon while using some of the buddy time mechanics (like in pokemon camp). They can even show expressions like gettiing angry or scared of other pokemon which already is more personality than what you can get watching a sprite. Heck, have you seen pokemon like Sudowoodo, Passimian or Mr. Mime fainting animations? You have more personality there than in the basic movement of multiple sprites. Not to mention that with 3D the pokemon in the wild either run towards you or straigh up attack you, act curious towards you when they see you, they react when you whistle at them or flee from you based on what their personality is meant to portray. And what can you do with 2D sprites? Oh yeah, you can see them from the front or from the back doing a pose at best and unless you´re going to use a potion on them or revive them you basically can only see them in battle. Also let´s be real, if the pokemon company would´ve stayed with 2D sprites right now we´ll have a massive amount of "fans" whining about how pokemon is as big as it is and still doesn´t do the jump to 3D yet. And people love to whine about moves like double kick or tackle on scorbunny, you know, those moves that you totally are going to keep in its moveset and not replace after the first 15 minutes of the game and forget that with 3D you get vastly superior inmersion when it comes to moves as well. Do you seriously think that moves like giga impact, flamethrower, thunderbolt or hyper beam are nearly as cool in 2D as they´re in 3D? Of course not. But sure, "3D moves look bad". Heck, you can´t even see the face of your own avatar with 2D. While on the other hand with 3D you can custumize the player character to look like you. You can see your avatar throwing the pokeball to catch or battle againts other pokemon or trainers, you can even see the player character during battle and not just the back of the pokemon and you can also see the trainer doing movements when you order a pokemon to do a move. "Imagination" is not a great argument when you consider that this kind of games heavily rely on connection to your team. And with 3D you get far more interactions which in turn, get you more connection because you can actually experience more things with them than just watching them from the back during battle. Sorry for the ridiculously long comment. I just wanted to share my opinion and I tend to write a lot sometimes.

I think Pokémon's biggest mistake was saying you can no longer use any Pokémon you want. If it means we can have them all back, I'd eagerly take 2d titles again. Or at least give a couple more years of development time. We can wait.

If we need to do a 3D pokemon game I'd like it to do an approach similar to the Mystery dungeon Rescue team remake. It must keep to the core of it's style without compromise to animation.

In my honest opinion, either or work. They have their strengths and weaknesses. 2D lets you get away with more outlandish designs while 3D lets you have more fluid little animations.

I also feel like the game's art direction is suffering from 3D as well. Not the graphics but like the art style. Things are becoming less stylized and more.. realistic? I don't know how to explain it.

If Pokémon returned to the top down 3d style they could massively increase the size of the world map giving us more places to explore and more overall content.

i don’t think you need to say sorry. this is the coldest take ever.

This may be my Gen 5 bias kicking in, but I absolutely loved the Gen 5 sprites. They were high quality and very detailed, with spritework already being much harder to perfect than modeling, and the added movement they had gave them that feeling of life that we would get from 3D models. It’s kinda funny how, other than in Legends Arceus, the Gen 5 pixel sprites have more movement to them than in the 3D games.

The best move animation that got lost overtime, to me at least, was Roar of Time. The sound and animated explosions in gens 4 and 5 made it feel powerful, having the impact we crave. Now, this impact just doesn’t feel like it hits that itch I want from it.

I think Pokemon had this formula of 2d and 3d figured out in gens 3&4.Use the 2d sprites for the main game series, and save the 3d animation for the colosseum/strory driven games on the consoles.

The Whole 2D vs 3D debate is just Stupid entirely ☠️💀

The funniest thing about it is that Pokemon could work so well in 3D, especially in an open world style. It's just the lacking execution compared to before.

I think we should go about half/half. Use 2d for areas where it would add style, such as with the pokemon, trainers, and some overworld sprites, but use 3d in the map and background design to add some extra depth. We had it with gens 4 and 5, so it shouldnt be difficult to do.

A very interesting thing about scarlet and violet when it comes to idle animations, if i remember correctly, they actually changed how lucario idles in battle to a more fight ready stance, so, while i shouldnt be hopeful, it could be possible that if the developers are given time to flesh out the games, they can make much more dynamic Pokémon, at the very least with better poses other than just standing.

I love the twist on the end music! Hope we hear more going forward

I said this on Twitter, but I don't think GameFreak is up there yet to justify the jump from 2D to 3D. Many graphical features they offered are either novelties or can be replicated in a 2D or 2.5D setting (Gen 5 will always be peak in that regard). To be fair to GameFreak at least, they are slowly learning and they are catching up. However, the audience nowadays does not appear to have the patience for that, and I do suspect that perhaps people have been spoiled with how the jump to a new system is basically an upgrade in and of itself.

for me, the graphics and animation has not been an issue, as I have looked more for what I can experience, play around with and challenge myself with of new stuff. That is also why I dont look down as much on gen 6 as others do (while not being as enthusiastic about gen 5 as others). They have become easier (which is annoying as hell), but I only really noticed it with gen 7, as it is way more handholdy. I can also look past the reuse of models and animation, if it means that the game can deliver more on the side. This is why I really have alot of issues with gen 8 and 9, as games. If I were to give gamefreak some advise I would say: 1) stop the handholding and give us the possibility to fail back. 2) get some better data- and software engineers. If you can cut corners to save time and space and still deliver inferior games, you need to improve. 3) (I am preaching to the choir on this one, but) give your team more time to develope the games. that might actually save most of the headaches that we have. 4) remove the exp. candy, make it possible to turn off the exp. share again and make raqre candy actually rare. seriously, in my playthrough of gen 8, all of my pokemon were lvl 100 BY THE 8TH GYM! There is no shame in grinding.

I feel like the 3D Games can give more cinematic cutscenes, but the 2D Games give a bit more personal touch to the Pokemon sprites

don't be sorry for telling the truth

I dig the outro. JUST WHEN I COULDNT GET THE OLD VER OUTTA MY HEAD. Im pleasantly reminded of the jazz version of the Kamen Rider W-B-X Theme.

While I agree the actual pokemon have suffered from the transition to 3d, on undeniable improvement i feel was to the actual trainers themselves. Using sword and shield as examples theres hop and Leons cute little face pats to psych themselves up qnd show their connections, Bedes smug look as he checks his watch during the battle, the look of desperation on Chairman Rose before his fight as he looks at his pokeball, and the fire that lights up in Kubus eyes when he axtivates a Gigantamax. The transition to 3D made every trainer and gym leader into a much more e pressive character that before hand was locked to only a single image that youd see before and after a battle and thats it.

I'm no Pokemon expert, thus, I don't have much to offer. However, Putting down 3d Pokemon simply because it's 3d is wrong. The games should be judged based on their merits, and not because they're 3d. I get it. You have a bias. from Nostalgia, and from an artistic point of view. But 3d shouldn't be shunned for simply being 3d. It's fault of the people above. The ones who are giving the orders to the people who work in these games. Blame them. Meaningless conflict is useless. And yeah, Your title is annoying. Yet, I do not know why. I'm neutral when it comes to Pokemon I guess.

When it comes to 2D VS 3D, I don't have a super strong preference. I can see your point of view, though. Recently, I was looking up info on hidden abilities of different SV mons and noticed their artwork. Some of the 3D models didn't translate from the artwork as well as they should have(Something I first noticed with Pawmot).

Can we have two companies work on Pokémon? One for 3D, the other for 2D games?

The funny thing is that the original 3D pokemon games did give there pokemon some personality like they reacted to being hit or when sent out or fainted and this patten kept going until Battle revolution where afterwards they used the new animations whitch lacked a lot of the personality

I like the direction they were going with the 3D games, but if they’re going to put games out at the rate they are now, then it should probably stick to 2D. I enjoyed Pokémon Violet, but the execution for the 3D environment wasn’t really up to the standard it needed. I just think that what needs to be done is put 3D to one side for now and just stick to the Standard Pokémon formula Great vid as always man 👍

Both 2D and 3D have their appeal , though I have to say I'm more a fan of _how_ each generation uses those styles. Case in point, the side games: for 2D the Pokemon Mystery Dungeons are just charming in the 2D with the mix of the animation work and character expressions, while for 3D Pokemon XD: GoD knew how to use it's 3D animations to give their Pokemon the right OMPH with their attacks, and the creativity of the use of 3D assets to make locations was great as ever despite the limitations of such at the time. Really, I'd say that 3D Pokemon probably would be a great improvement over 2D if Gamefreak and Nintendo gave their devs the time and resources needed to make that fully realized, fleshed out world and mechanics that 3D games need, but given how the company priorities momentum and sales....yeah, that is not going to happen until the IP starts flagging hard enough for a hail mary effort to be warrented.

I kinda feel that the developers weren't ready to switch to full 3D and instead it was something TPC insisted on.

i think the pokemon stadium and XD: Gale of darkness games show that game freak is fully capable of making the pokemon much more expressive, even if back then 3D animation was much more limited- i really hope they can start implementing the kinda animations you described even if it takes awhile for a new game to come out- it honestly be a breath of fresh air if they took more time to develop games in general tbh,,

I don't mind 2D or 3D pokemon I just wish the games were more polished because legends arceus and SV have shown us there is still creativity in these games but its execution is just bad considering we have such amazing games on switch but pokemon for some reason still struggles to get it down. I still love pokemon and I will still buy the games but I can't really blame people for liking 2D more since the games were more consistent compared to now where it feels like a gamble. Once again I love both styles but I'm starting to lean towards 2D more because gen 5 was just the best way to convey pokemon the animated sprites were top notch and still holds up today.

Never thought I'd hear a smooth jazz remix of Friday Night.

I would love a video talking about the change with how the story for pokemon changed between games

Hey Majin!! Fantastic video as always. And i do wanna add a bit to this conversation as I think you are right about this. For me, It always bother me with a smaller new dex since the jump to 3D. Combine that with the natdex in gen 8 controversity. GF pretty much since 2012 used this as a reason why they had smaller or even cut the dex. So they used staples to the series and concept forward as a quality of their frenchies. To later use these staples as unrealistic expections from fans. Its pretty clear 3D made worse products for Pokemon. And it seems its more important for tight scheduled then having a stable game. And call the fabs out for expecting to much.

First... Hold on guys. Let him cook.

I think they really missed a trick with the Gen 4 remakes. While we had the fancy 3d experimental Legends Arceus, BDSP could have been a jump back to 2D or to 2D-HD sprites. Gen 5 was just a glimpse of what we could have gotten in future instalments.

I kinda agree - 3D Pokémon games aren't inherently a bad idea, and looking at some of the 2.5D elements of generations 4 & 5, it was a direction they were always going to go into. That being said, Pokémon went 3D at the same time it started making a lot of decisions that were either objectively bad, or just decisions I didn't like. I miss the HM puzzles, it added more gameplay depth to the overworld, and helped Pokémon feel like more than just battle machines! I miss the unique sprites, it added so much more personality to each individual generation! I miss the branching pathways and sidequests, there was just more to do in the old games, and it made the towns feel more lived in and real! There were also a lot of things in Pokémon that 2D games could get away with, that's harder to believe on HD 3D games (no dialogue, Pokémon's bleeping battle cries, the battle animations, as MangaKamen said). X & Y kind of got away with these, because they still had 2D Pokémon's design philosophy, but from Sun and Moon onwards, I can't help but notice how much Pokémon was falling behind its triple A peers.

Damn Kamen you're on a streak with your latest videos, this year might be your best one yet content wise ! This video and, I think, the one about devolving design both underline so well what I feel is wrong about the franchise : Too much realism, not enough side hustles and a feeling of discovery at an all time low... outside of arceus the last main pokemon game I actually finished, was ORAS, I don't have the interest which is insane when I default buy all their game since I love the franchise so much.

For me I like both personally I’m someone who’s very open to changes or different styles so I don’t mind if a pokemon game is 3D or 2D I’ll still play it and have fun.

I will never know what song was used for that interrupt. The graphics were never really an issue for me. The difficulty balance was why I had to sit out an entire generation. In the days of 2D, the Pokemon anime was on afternoon cartoon network. That went a long way in stimulating the imagination when I was in the same place in game. It's fair to say I barely noticed the picture in front of me when the one in my head was at the wheel. There are advantages to having grown up during a time when we were forced to go outside to play.

Gen 6 definitely had my favourite art style, all the buildings and backgrounds were soo detailed and hold up amazing today, the customisation was great and pss is the best. And the 3d art style definitely was the best in gen 6.

You would probably *LOVE* Cassette Beasts! It has LOVELY music, including so many battle themes that have both an Instrumental and Vocal version, which changes depending on if you are fused with you partner character. You can *BECOME the Monsters you scan to fight more monsters!* And it's a 2D Open World Game! :D

I agree with the premise (Though I make an exception for Snap and Colosseum) I'd love to see what a "modern" 2D game would look like if they poured Gen 5 levels of energy in addition to what they've gotten and learned since

I always find it funny when people talk about aesthetics and animations when I eventually turned animations off for regular gameplay to decrease grind time for battles, whether it be for EV training or BP grinding.

Honestly im kinda mixed about it bc some sprites from gens 1-5 i genuely dont like but also gen 9 , legends arceus models looks great and even gen 2 crystal had animated sprites

After i played violet, i went back to black, i was like "this is so much better"

so I am gonna answer this in two different parts: first, I am gonna point out a pokemon like Aggron. is Aggron's model bad? why does it look off? part of it is and maybe I am crazy that the head on the 3D model looks smaller, and the other is as you said dynamic posing. Aggron hunched a little in earlier games, making it look more imposing versus the "I'mma stand upright and swing my arms" idle we get. big difference. I feel like it isn't just a "3D" thing, I feel like there was some level of hand changing because the design for the badass metal Kaiju seems to have turned on it's head for me. second, something that sours me about "future proofing" and overall 3D pokemon is how each generation cuts more and more corners without bringing much to the table. Dexit is gonna be a valid topic of discussion and the Mamoswine in the room until people see the problem. the issue, at least for some of us isn't even that they cut out the nat dex (which they said they wouldn't do) but that they continued to cut even beyond that. we never had a return of seasons, or pokemon following you for almost 3 years into 3D. graphics and optimization have honestly gotten worse over time. less and less post game content and goodies around the world to find as the gens went on. cutting of the movepool for "balance" when in fact it just made things feel worse. all of these have been in relation to what gamefreak and the defenders of the cut have stated for the cuts, and it has only gotten worse in some aspects. even being bold enough to talk about how much work it would be to implement every pokemon in each gen. TPCI has enough money to hire more employees for GF, or even make a whole ass separate team. they could eliminate crunch or even change some directive hands and hire a 3rd party to give them more time on a mainline game with a spinoff like colosseum again which could also be used to generate merch. I can keep spinning on all the things they haven't and couldn't do but at the end of the day the improvements I wanted in exchange for the thing I was forced not only by the devs but the community as a whole to accept with grade A mental gymnastics have not been met, and in fact have gotten worse. so what does this have to do with 2D vs 3D you ask? simple: I don't think it is naturally a "oh its 3D so it just looks bad because of it's inherit design" like some would say. it was a rushed out and haphazard decision for 500+ pokemon, and how the models were designed with no updates that I feel killed it. crunch and corner cuts are the hallmark of this series and it will be their death if it continues and I feel it every time I see a model. they do nothing to improve older models aside from texture (which, to SV's credit was super cool.). but a lot of the models look devoid of some sort of soul, hell the clunky colosseum and stadium models rife with size inaccuracies and full of dated clunk just feel more alive in movement and color alone to make me look past it. I don't expect a course correction, and I am not here to argue with whoever decides to get butthurt and try to tell me I am wrong because I brought up the sinful topic of dexit. I am here to point out what I see is the problem which is greed, laziness and incompetence egged on by complacency either because y'all will get upset over criticisms like this and just buy 2 copies when someone says they aren't buying the games, or they don't have proper competition to make them slow the merch roll and actually try to refine their product.

I would love to see another 2d pixel art pokemon game - there is a lot of good competition here, with games like Coromon, Monster Crown, Nexomon or Monster Sanctuary really scratching the itch but (though they're sometimes even better) its never the same as *real* pokemon games. It'd be a dream to see a fully open world like s/v translated into pixel art.

4:58 I mean Sega had it both ways with Sonic Mania and it worked out great, which is surprising considering the Sonic fandom never agrees on _anything._ Capcom had Mega Man 9 and 10 too. Course Sega leaned on fangame creators while Capcom had Inti Creates who made Mega Man Zero and Mega Man ZX and would go on to make other classic style 2D games like Azure Striker Gunvolt (a spiritual successor to Mega Man Zero and ZX), Blaster Master Zero and Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon (a spiritual successor to classic Castlevania).

It is clear the the pressures of developing a 3D game for a studio previously known for 2D spritework, coupled with the stresses of a yearly release schedule is having a detrimental effect on the quality of Pokemon games. I personally would like it if they could have a spin-off series of 2D games. Have one team within the company make the main series 3D games every 2-3 years, and then have a smaller team work on the more traditional 2D games to fill the release schedule. Given that the development time and storage size of 2D assets would be reduced compared to the 3D ones, maybe we could have the full Pokedex in the 2D games. Though if every Pokemon has a compatible game to be transferred to then fewer people are going to pay the ransom to keep their Pokemon in Home.

I really like the 3D games, as I have been enjoying the titles on the Switch a lot despite what people say about them. Heck, even my favorite game in the series, Pokemon Moon, is a 3D game. Even then, when I refer to graphics in Pokemon, I have, and will always prefer how everything looks in Gen 5, those animated sprites add a lot of charm, and I would love to see how Pokemon that already have a lot of personality in 3D look in the style of Gen 5 sprites such as Incineroar, Cinderace, Hisuian Zoroark or Meowscarada.

2D is better. Gen 4/5 are still the undisputed champions of pokemon at its pinnacle. The yearly releases are really screwing them and the fact they went into a console competing with great games like Mario Odyssey, Metroid Dread, Zelda BotW+TotK, and Xenoblade..... Pokemon is the 4 foot chubby rich kid picking a fight with 7 foot basketball players and then gets surprised when he gets a super atomic wedgie. Pokemon has been dragged through the mud. It may make money but it gets no respect or love.

I've always been a bit more of a fan of 2D sprites myself in Pokemon, but even I can admit that 3D does have it's merits (the most likely being the time/cost save on the devs going forward). I would be convinced to pay and actively play the next Pokemon title if it was clear they were going to reinvest their money into those models to actually bother to animate them consistently across the cast. I'm no artist, but maybe someone who is could address it: is it harder to do those small animations in 2D compared to 3D? Or does it depend on the model? From what little I've looked into how the old cels Disney movies were made in they had to make multiple copies of the same subject overlapped in various stages for the desired effect (e.g. running cycles had to literally have each and every part of the body move in understandable segments that would still read well in full motion + adhere to stretch & squish, other cartoon principles etc.). And I always thought that the principles of that method roughly translate because when you see a sprite sheet of some fan work that uses sprites you see all the stages... but now it's on the pixel by pixel, micro level of detail (where one missing or offset pixel can make something look very bad). And maybe I'm blowing the difficulty of sprite work to 3D modeling out of the water, I'm sure both have had cheat methods developed to save artists the headaches of development the same way Xerox was to Cel animation when 101 Dalmatians was being made.

I have a defense for the Pyroball example Whil gen8 Pyroball is really cool to look at, it takes more time to execute, it might look cool but if drags the battle everytime you use it will become annoying at some point..

Its such a shame we didnt go the Pokemon Colosseum route, it had such a badass design and the world felt real. Meanwhile Scarlet struggles doing half of what it could do. And iv never seen baby cubchoo sprite and holy shit its adorable and i would bever be able to KO it.

tbh i honestly want to hear you talk about all the metroid games seems like a interesting rabbit hole to dive down. and yes i prefer the 2d games over 3d i didn't mind x & y but overtime the games have became rather stale or have loads of potential but lack development time.

I'm quite shared on the 2 styles tbh, even if there could be more flare in mainline 3D pokemon (mainly the idle stances of the pokemon, the fact these models have, at best, as much polygon as your standard Gamecube era models shouldn't be an excuse to not animating them well). I did liked the Also, having watched your video I thought about "What if 3D pokemon, but animated in the ""way"" of 3D Guilty Gear (so something taking a bit more cues from 2D)". BTW, Guilty Gear could be an interesting way for you to talk about "the good and bad ways to convey story/lore in fighting games". I understand if you aren't really in fighting games (you seem more of an RPG and stylish character action guy in general).

Although I started with W2 (with some playing of X, White, Alpha Sapphire, Moon, and Heartgold), after playing Fire Emblem Awakening, I feel a mix of models would help more than just these scattered and yet samey 3D designs.

Oh that Metal Gear Rising reference warmed my heart

i would actually love a 3d background 2d sprites type of game (a good example of this would be lumentale or the clip made by dottdev

While I don't mind the 3d models, I kinda wish Gamefreak would either add more animation to the 3d models or an option to play in a 2d style for the modern games. I love pokemon since gen 4 and while I enjoyed gen 9 I kinda want a way to play the game in 2d opposed to playing in 3d.

2D and 3D is dependant on your games general flow of environment, a Open World game will most likely be 3D to show the expansive world with the camera pointing out to the large scenery 2D can be better to show expression and in my personal opinion a more flexible but technically riskier formula since you need to get sprite animators Some mix the two and it unironically is pretty cool, rare sight to see though

I mean if they fixed the camera in battles so the animations would feel more dynamic then it would help tremendouslly.

Is it any wonder why pokemon fangames, one's that primarily use engines or softwares such as RPG maker, have such popularity and general enjoyment across its community, while the 3d stuff are, though still good, not as desirable by comparison. Call it simplicity, or preference towards the nostalgic, but why need to be fancy when you could be simple, but not uncomplicated. Examples of some fangames would be ones like Insurgence or Reborn.

2.5D is what Pokemon should stick with and perfect

Honestly, both styles are cool and unique in their own ways, 2D having a great nostalgic factor and a lot of feelings and character shown on the characters and Pokemon, and 3D having some pretty cool environments and scenery and some of the gameplay is also cool to, I honestly like how you can actually see the Pokemon in the tall grass in the modern games compared to the old games and how some of the area's seem more natural, overall I could care less about the looks, I just want good Pokemon, not any poorly made looking Pokemon and recolors, unless of course the recolors look cool

I think the 2D vs. 3D debate is a moot point because there are no good outcomes. We have seen all the criticism GF gets by going 3D, yet, had they decided to keep the 2D art-style going, then they would have gotten criticized for stagnating and not taking the "obvious" next step by going 3D.

I always prefer 2D or pixel art. 3D has it's appeal, but that appeal ages fast

Just to extend on one point but, the reason people got so up in arms about the model reuse for Sword and Shield was the dex cut remember? And cause of that and the creators comments, you can be sure people would scrutinize it far more. We didn't gain anything from the reuse, we lost instead and then had to pay for it.

I can't really say because I like both 2D and 3D. Like you said there are strengths and weaknesses but those are outside of the topic for me.

My biggest complaint about the New Pokemon games, Gen6 onwards, is precisely the fact that any non-gen1 Pokemon can and WILL be shoved into obscurity... or even be cut out from the game altogether. Sometimes I make a New Team in Pokemon Showdown, but when I check if it fits the lastest generation, it always shatters my heart to read "(Pokemon) does not exist on Gen9"... thankfully I can still use them on National Dex, but it's honestly baffling because the Pokemon Games CAN afford bringing back EVERY missing Pokemon, and they choose not to because it's cheaper... and boy, cheaper it is... it's not like you're making new designs either, it's just a matter of translating some sprites into 3D, which shouldn't be an issue with the ludicrous budget TPC has (I wouldn't be surprised if they don't share it with GameFreak)... Also most Pokemon don't really have the charm they used to in 2D, being less energetic and less vibrant... the downgrade is notorious.

i played the first two pokemon gens a couple years back (before they decided to even announce the closure of the eshops) and was honestly blown away how fast the gameplay was. i could do an entire battle before one turn is done in the newer games (dpplt being an exception). dont get me wrong, i like the franchise but i feel like the battles waste my time way more than the older games. yeah, normal moves like tackle not being 100% accurate despite being shown otherwise annoys me. in terms of the overworlds in the older games, they felt big despite being small. there was a lot of optional areas that u dont have to explore but there were there for u. dont get me wrong, i prefered exploring paldea over galar, but even then. i dont like how u cant really EXPLORE the cities and towns. they feel so bare bones. i guess u can say u can explore but to me, there wasnt anything to really excite me. when i first tried exploring the towns and cities, they werent really exciting to explore so later towns and cities, i didn't even bother. i felt nothing while walking around cuz the game didnt really give me much reason to look in every nook and cranny. theres a reason (to me) botw felt exciting to explore. there was always a cool land mark that was beckoning u. i still enjoyed my time scarlet and violet, but i would have loved to learn some history with the towns and cities like we know of the older games. examples include floroma town, ecruteak city, and nacrene city. those had something else to them. they (to me) felt like i wanted to go around and learn more as i can go into the buildings. (besides league based buildings)

I’d argue that the Gen 6 games, essentially 2.5D games, are also among the best there is. It’s no coincidence that they were the last games before the 2015 hiatus

Honestly, I just like what the gameplay offers and what it leads to on 2D pokemon massively over the 3D games.

I think something to consider here is how the different styles work with the basic pokemon gameplay loop of running through the wild to gather up a team with which to then face challenges in static, turn-based battles. 3D is technically more immersive and convenient for picking out the wild pokemon you want, but 2D is paradoxically more lively due to how tightly crafted the map tends to be with the spritework leaving things up to the imagination and running into pokemon randomly in the grass has more of an exciting surprise factor than trying to play "where is waldo" with some potentially tiny critters. Getting attached to your own pokemon may be easier in the immersive realm of 3D, but gameplay wise, that doesn't really mean anything. Sure, you get some power of friendship shenanigns in battle and some moves and evolutions are affected by how much your pokemon likes you, but that is conveyed the exact same in 3D and 2D. Though, it feels more fitting for 2D due to functional limitations in that medium, while in 3D, the exact same system ends up feeling outright lazy, because those limitations aren't there. Speaking of limitations, the mainline pokemon combat system has the same issue. It works for 2D, because you can't really do much more with the medium than that, but it winds up looking completely lifeless and out of place in a 3D setting. I mean, we have the anime as a reference point for how much energy and movement a pokemon battle is meant to have and then we have the 3D games, where, unlike the 2D games, there is no illusion about how much maneuvering around the environment could play a part in battle and yet every pokemon just waits out its turn, relaxed enough to play around with idle animations. Plus, the battle animations themselves for most attacks, especially physical ones, just do not work when the action happening on screen is no longer up to the imagination, but still tries to use all the tricks from the 2D games, where it was. In my opinion, the 2D games work better with pokemon's current gameplay, but 3D games have way more potential when it comes to bringing the pokemon world to life without requiring imagination as a crutch. The problem is just, that the way pokemon works seems set in stone, when it could really use a massive overhaul to match the move to 3D. Granted, such an undertaking would take way more time than the routine frequency of new game releases allows for, but I find it to be necessary for the pokemon games to have the quality this franchise deserves.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased towards Gen 3 regardless of what comes out nowadays just because Sapphire is the one title I spent the most time playing back in the day. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy Sword after having cleared the base game (and half its dlc, currently), but I personally feel as though the 2D titles have a more timeless quality to them. I don't know; maybe I'm just looking back on nostalgia with rose tinted glasses.

I will always find the sprites and sprite animation to be charming and endearing. I think there's a way to full encapsulate both its charm and add a bit of 3D to both the world and the pokemon themselves. However I think you're spot on about how reusing is a liable undoing. I mean I've been playing Ultra Sun and BDSP at the same time... and I honestly feel that the sprite work in Ultra Sun gives more to the pokemon than BDSP does. I mean it's cool yeah for pokemon and their signature moves, etc, but again. the popping colors of Ultra Sun still seem better. i mean yeah it's not ENTIRELY 2D, but I kinda wish it was like BDSP. Have a sprite-like overworld interaction, and... wait, nvm HGSS has done is better. Just make it like HGSS. We don't need alternate camera angles, just somehow make the 2d into 3d. xD Give me a game where I can analog-stick the character in a 3-d environment that isn't stuck in 4-directional movement and we're cool. Hell, Earthbound did it.

I say this about games in general, in many regards the industry was able to do more back when the technology was more limited. Its not just with pokemon, the 3d chase definitely ended up hurting the industry in some ways. Of course it has brought its positives, but the mindset of a popular long running franchise needing to go 3d (or if it already has, open world these days) in order to be worth something is for some reason very prevalent well past when 3d games were a novelty. I remember folks wanting pokemon to rush to the 3ds and shat on BW2 for still being sprite based, now look how the tables of turned lol. Though to Pokemon's credit, while as you said a lot of the older pokemon have definitely downgraded in regards to visual flare in battle, one thing I can say they consistently improve on as the main series 3d venture goes on are the humans. Seeing the improvements of the human characters from Gen 6 to 7 felt like I was looking at different console, gen 4 to gen 5 vibes. Proportionate and design accurate models in the overworld, animated battle portraits, lots of movement outside battle (even if many were repeated lol). SWSH was like bringing that style to HD and improved on even more though since then the games have kinda been at that level, which isn't a problem outside visual bugs and shit gen 9 is riddled with. Though I have to give special shoutouts to the Let's Go games, unironically still better looking than most of the main games that came out after it on the same console. Honestly wish the DP remakes were in that artstyle if they were gonna go for a chibi throwback look. And then there's New Pokemon Snap just being the prettiest 3d game in the frachise bar none, probably for a LONG time at the rate we're going.

I think the way they were more or less doing things as far as mainline 2D games followed by 3D "battle sims" (Colosseum, XD, PBR) would probably have been the way to go as far as future proofing goes. The 2D mainline games can be experimental with their art if need be but not sacrifice much as far as gameplay goes and the 3D games can be the visually impressive Sims as it were. As it stands...3D's been rough for Pokemon tbh, Gen 6 onwards.

Pre-emptive comment: I bet it's more about the battle presentation. The stricter technical limits meant they could only ever *abstractly represent* how moves specifically worked, but with animated 3D models we expect them to *literally depict* how those moves work. It's a losing proposition to begin with.

I honestly belive story wise in the 3d games ultra sun and moon take the cake due to how the story was changed and expanded with new mechanics

Especially since they don't have all the pokemon in games anymore they should focuse on that patch of pokemon animations and cycle them back in future gens when they become relevant again with maybe only alil tweeking and wasted opportunity not being able to dress them up like Pikachu/Eevee since they're using same models, ar the very least the starters

And black and white & their sequels shown some of the best the games can do. I think a 3D world with 2D sprites is the best of both worlds.

I haven't played a lot of the older games, but I would like to see a pokemon game in the style of Octopath Traveler. I think that it could be really cool.

What's your thoughts on a HD-2D pokemon? I feel like it might work. I feel like Pokemon should go back to 2D but keep the better music and more interesting character development that SV had

Gen 7 is my favorite generation, I have over 400 hours in it as of now and have completed most everything besides the battle tree and Pokémon snap thing. I have got to agree though when it comes to sprite work, it just looks great. It is a bit odd to think that the Pokémon become less detailed in 3d but that is true. My favorite gen outside of gen 7 is either 3, which I first started with fire red and emerald, or gen 5, just because of the level of detail and nuance. Gen 4 ain’t bad either

THANK YOU! you pointed out something that I tell people all the time. They already had the models for all these pokemon ready- there was no excuse for them to not put in X pokemon or Y Pokemon other than they were lazy or told by nintendo not to. "They're not lazy, they just can't remake the models!" Yeah and My name is Sam (It's not). You could chalk it up to a memory amount because they don't want to make it too high but... *glances over at DLC for Sword/Sheild and Scarlet/Violet* "But that's way too much data for them to program!" So you're telling me that they made the models able to be carried over, but the stat programing? Yeah, that's rich. My lord, Nintendo just needs to give us Pokemon Home that an actual home ala "Hey You! Pikachu!" and be done with it.