I love the good natured ribbing and banter between you and Nick. Always a pleasure to see him on the channel. I’ll also take the opportunity to congratulate myself for understanding the dead parrot references despite being an American millennial.

Another fascinating conversation with Nick Jonny, as always, could chat and listen to this guy for hours .... 😍

A real pleasure to see your testing team of old shotgun ! Thank you !

David Butler, an engineer for the Winchester repeating arms company, in his 1973 book had this to say about overshot wads: "In the mid 1930s, the average pattern was about 65%. More damaging than this average percentage was the phenomenon known as "blown patterns", where the percentage would be under 40% of the shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards. This phenomenon would occasionally occur with any ammunition loaded up to the 1930s because the top wad would occasionally remain in the center of the pattern and decelerate due to air pressure. If this happened the shot would flow around the top wad, causing a lateral acceleration of the shot and a large open space in the center of the pattern. This type of "blown pattern" could be disastrous to a top trap shooter for he could loose a bird in a tightly fought match with no error on his part. In the late 1930s Remington introduced a fold-type top crimp to replace the roll crimp with it's overshot wad. The end of the shell itself was folded in a pie-shaped pattern, and once this crimp opened up there was nothing ahead of the shot column to disrupt the pattern. Winchester followed suit with this important improvement in 1938." Pigeon and clay shooting matches were a very serious sport in the United States prior to the Second World War, and based on Butler's work it appears that the competitive shooters in the United States were looking for any advantage they could get. To me this explains the Americans' enthusiasm for the star-crimped cartridge.

I've got so much time for the information you gents are providing with regards to steel shot. I got pretty tired of picking up plastic wads all over the place and have also made decision to cut down on lead as much as possible after educating myself on the subject. Out of curiosity I've been running reloaded steel cartridges with various fibre wad, fibre shot cup and sheep's wool wad through a £10 special single open choke just to see how detrimental it will be over time. Keep up the great work fellas

More great footage Sash - not to be forgotten! 👍

Steel through Damascus is interesting. As you may know, testing of a number of Damascus-barrelled guns, all in poor or very poor condition, was carried out by Sherman Bell with the technical help of Remington. As I recall, they found that their group failed at approx. 28K psi. Subsequent metallurgical analysis showed failures to be of the expected repetitive stress type and not at the welds (again, my recollection without trying to find the reference). Since the British submit their Damascus guns for nitro proofing or reproofing, perhaps you know the rejection rates, the proof failure rates, proof/service load pressures, etc. We know that the tensile strength of Damascus is less than half that of modern ordinance steel, but enough strength is just that...enough.

As a little bit late input here..in NZ we have been using steel shot since 2004(for waterfowl but I just stuck with it for upland too)..I have used the same Miroku mk10 sporter the whole time and barrels still look perfect (was careful from the start to change to more open chokes)...also while takes the brain a little time to recalibrate leads in some cases both my father and myself seem to shoot pretty much as well as we ever did with lead.

great video johnny keep the steel shot info coming please thank you .

Norwegian Blue, sadly I am old enough to understand that one. Interesting to see how the gun has altered (or not in this case), also a very, very interesting choice of wallpaper.

Love it. what a duo, and proof Young and Old can get along fine. it don't matter the dog, it can always learn new tricks :-)

Regarding recoil being less in the damascus barrelled gun - many older English guns are wide in the bore simply through age and use. It may be that this produces the same effect that Browning look to achieve by ‘back boring’ - a reduction in felt recoil.

Steel shot is required here in Washington State so I've found this investigation interesting. My main concern is with an older Beretta BL-3 I have with fixed chokes, but so far haven't seen any issues. Being relatively new to the shotgun world I would have liked to see a bit more exposition on the "closing a shotgun" jab.

When the gun was hard to open that can be a sign of over pressure. As I'm sure you know break action guns come slightly off the face when firing, this is quite normal. However, too much pressure can increase the breech face opening enough to allow the cartridge metal head expand into the gap thus the difficulty in opening the gun. Take care and keep up the grand work.

Nice to see Nick back on the channel and he serviced covid 😂

The wad deformed as it travelled down the barrel which caused gas to exit at a select point and create spin. The steel contacted the barrel at the ruptured point. We make 12g for the defence industry. This sometimes happens because wads are only plastic, they are not impervious to failure. There will always be some degree of spin when this occurs.

"This is a late parrot." 😄😄

im paining for thje fjords as we speak... my experience with my old shul with reemed out chokes is that the normal wheare is more significant then the steel shot. after several hundred shells on the clayground. olny thing thats broken is my ejector screw has snapped... but thats was probably there befor i bought it

If it’s resting than it’s definitely a Norwegian Blue.

Where did you get that wallpaper..... Dell boys flat...???

I see Eley are doing a eco vip steel 20g be interested to see your results on this one, I might buy a box and compare them to my homeload 20g

Great video guys, but I request a video of you doing a penetrating test at 40, 50 and 60 yards with steel 4s vs lead 6s that would be great. Thanks

Go to Gamebore and beg for some of the non c.i.p hypersteel 32 grams #2 3,75mm pellet at 480 meters/second . Here in Denmark they are used by a lot of waterfowlers in semi autoes. Awesome cartridge. But heavy recoil in regular guns

Why would round steel ball bearings stay in their lineal position when under severe compression? I can imagine that lead pellets deform as they are put under compression in the breach and therefore, stay relatively in the same position in the pellet mass as it accelerates up the barrel, but I suspect steel ball bearings behave substantially differently (as they don't deform) and may well rotate significantly in the early stages of acceleration as they jostle for position as the mass finds its 'compressed' shape , especially as they exit the cartridge hull and enter the barrel. In my opinion, the scratches that appear to be in the breach require further study, I can't imagine for a moment they were missed on initial inspection before testing was carried out.

As Nick says, “your perfect pattern doesn’t exist” absolutely true!

I'm probably missing it somewhere but what was the choking on both guns?.

If someone gets a belt round the ear from your stock when you carry it over your shoulder, then they were too close to you, 2 metres?

Anyone who has ever shot cartridges with clear cases will have seen shot trapped between the wad and the case. Surely the same is going to happen from time to time with steel shot and given the hardness of steel shot will scratch the barrel?

Roll turn over with the identical powder and shot payload produces on average 1000 to 1200 lup . Lead units of pressure less than a crimp same velocity as a rule better for really good even patterns

I’ve got a nice fresh cuddle fish for you guys. Fun video thanks!

Recoil is partially down to bore diameter Nick...larger bore less felt recoil..first gun will be smaller in the bore.

Could the rolled turnover be a way of stopping moisture and damp air getting to the steel shot. I have been reluctant to buy steel in any number as I have experienced the steel shot fusing together in the shot cup as corrosion has taken place between fowling seasons. The crimped closure leaves a small hole for damp air to penetrate, even more of a problem possibly with Eco wads, in early promotional films Ely said that a smear of vasaline would stop any moisture, I felt at the time that this was a cop out at £14 a box, no way I would risk buying a thousand, even less chance of smearing them all with vasaline.

Will the roll crimp let water into the cartridge ? I have seen a duck shot at about 40 meters with a 3" Federal steel load where the shot clumped and blew a big hole in the base of the ducks neck , the wad and a lot of shot was in the duck .Claimed shot size number vs actual measurement varies considerably depending country of manufacture and even individual Manufacturers . Australia, Britain, Spain Italy and the USA all seem to be different . It would be nice for all shot to be Metricated . e.g. Here in New Zealand we must use 8½ or smaller for skeet shooting , trouble is some Italian 7½s are the same measurement as Australian 8½ what is on the case does not always reflect what is inside

Don't have a problem using stainless steel cartridges what I want to know is what is its effects when injested in any game meat I consume and what grade stainless steel pellets (does it meet food grade standards) the manufacturer's use in the cartridges

Nick's explanation that a rolled crimp takes up less space than a star crimp is the second most british thing second only to the queen I have ever seen.

He's pining for the fjords!

So they don't damage your barrels, apart from bulges and scoured bores ?

Should have shooting glasses on to save eyes just in case !! Tut tut.

Lovely plumage!

Soo if shotgun barrels were chromed lined and polished , would it help with steel shot

I've owned ,2 Zabala Hermanos and they both kicked like mules! One of them nearly ripped my finger off!

If the barrel is bulged it is a material weakness and the gun is out of proof. Until it is repaired it can not be sold or even given away.

I would guess that the marks are from earlier. But they where filled with lead from incupped lead shot and now it went away from steel shot.

"It's bleeding demised"

Love the Norwegian Blue comment!

Over in the US we don't have many problems with steel. I use a brand called hevi metal through my Vinci and it is killer. I will agree that lead is better, but steel isn't really as bad as people make it out to be.

Sad to say cartridge history, development and manufacture are my "thing"... great video 👍

Is bismuth shot is allowed, someone told me there is bismuth shot is using by ELEY

If the wade fully incloses the 'steel' shot, then the shot is not going to touch the barrel at all during firing. Hence, no problems, end of story.

Ok as to the scratches in the barrel... just throwing this out there... maybe there’s something on your bore gauge and thats doing it... dunno 🤷‍♂️ its a thought.

Norwegian Blue prefers kipping on its back!

I find steel shot travels through birds at time and not bring them down straight away unless pellets hit vitals as with lead it’s will mis-shape and will cause more damage when inside bird effecting more areas

Apparently the marks in the barrel are through the chokes being opened up, and it has been done very poorly.

I don't think it's parrot season yet, unless they've become a nuisance species.

Those patterns would do nothing to a bird in flight but wound it...i would not use this in field for duck....2.5" steel...great concept...however.... Upland Birds/ partridge\ pheasant would be fine.

“If he was any more rest and be Pushing up daisies” . Forgive me I’m an American I don’t know the exact Monty Python quote.

number 4 shot in steel has about the same penetration as 7.5 in lead, the performance is no where near.

I have a new (old) English side by side, it’s not worth tens of thousands but was in the thousands and I would be inclined to stay away from anything that even has a slight possibility of harming it, if all I wanted was a few boxes of something to use like Bismuth etc for a duck drive at the end of the day, what would you advice to use that’s effective and value for money ? Cheers bud

Surely basic physics is more important that testing on live quarry. Lighter steel will not have the energy of lead at range!

Random question from the US; is bismuth shot allowed there?

Plastic straws are to be made illegal. I read that all single use plastics would be banned. Does that include bio-wads?

Not one of your best. Interesting subject that needs investigation and explanation but didn’t work for me in this case. Now the season is underway I would like to see these cartridges used on a typical shoot day. We could then see how they perform, what adjustments were needed in shooting style and more importantly the killing range and efficiency. Maybe a comparison using your normal load for first half of day and then switching for second. Keep up the good work.

I look forward to BASC et al giving me an unequivocal guarantee that steel shot won't damage my Browning B25 and Webley and Scott 700 with appropriate compensation if it does

This raises more questions than answers.Those barrel scratches plus a couple of small bulges!!!!,hello alarm bells.If the true purpose and I ain't suggesting ahem ahem wink wink it is of selling more game to Joe public I'm concerned.Steel rusts,steel doesn't deform,steel is light and raises questions on meat quality?So a non toxic cartridge is needed or desired for game shooting.Why do pigeon /vermin shooters need non lead ,I like eco cartridge and eco wad advancement but non lead,we are no where near a suitable replacement.What about the .410/28 bore user with fixed tighter chokes?,there will be over pressure and safety issues for a non existent problem.This all smacks of anti backed Lilly Livered spineless shooting organisations rolling over on shooters yet again.Where will this all end ?

I would urge you (Jonny) to reach out to Americans and American companies such as Tom Rooster, LP Brenzy, Federal Cartridge Company in Anoka, Mn. We Yanks went through many of these questions n the 1990’s. Then put together a post informing your followers with your new found knowledge. Matt

Until the proof house stops obsessing about laws generated in the Jurassic era, shooters in UK will be at a disadvantage in terms of performance for ever. "We've always done it this way" is not serving the shooting community well. Steel performs well with speed and does not need high pressure to do so.

I live and shoot in France. The level of misinformation and hysteria here about the change over to steel shot is becoming laughable. My mate owns my local gun shop and he says the only really thing bad that could happen is to your chokes. But many people here are now not buying older guns because they are not steel shot proofed. All I know is that I have three shotguns only one of which is steel shot proofed and I don't care and will carry one using them after steel comes in here in I think 2025.

Perhaps that damascus English gun is back bored a bit. That would soften the recoil.... Steel shot is responsible for the near-extinction of the mallard in NZ. So many get wounded and are not recovered that more ducks die for each bag limit. The steel is fast at the muzzle but it is ballistically inferior and loses velocity very fast so I takes a lot more pellets to bring down a bird. The makers are using wads that allow for the less compressible nature of the steel shot column, so guns are OK with it, even older ones, but for killing power it is inferior to lead shot. All waterfowl shooting in New Zealand must be done with steel due to the paranoia about lead shot in the water, which seemed not to cause an issue for over 200 years until a couple of years ago when the eco-maniacs gained the ear of government. Such is life in this PC world where those with no knowledge whatever of the subject get to make laws about it.

easiest fix for going to steel shot is take your old gun put it away or (buy bismuth shot) and go buy a new modern gun with choke tubes. Just as simple as that. adapt / change to the American standard shot sizes and loads we been using steel shot for over 30 years went through all this decades ago. Modern US steel loads are at the pinnacle of steel shots effectiveness. accept it that your making a changing to modern steel nontox ammo. Modern problems require modern solutions.There i just gave you a proven working solution to steel shot.

Still disheartening. Damascus twist guns Being put wayside, im canadian we use lead still upland/rabbit/large game. Steel will not kill humanely below 1400fps many wounded birds here with light steel, govt should allow damascus guns lead used..

You should really try to look like your listening to the guy speaking next to you, instead of doing your own thing and completely ignoring him. Also, try and explain a little what you're actually doing while you're measuring the barrels. Everyone doesnt know what youre doing.

I disagree on the part where you say that you need to go out into the field and shoot it. You need to get all sorts of cartridges available to you, and try all of them out on different papers. You want a pattern that leaves no holes in the pattern that are bigger than the game you are shooting later on. That is how its done. There are no excuses. Its the game its life that is on the line. Maimed animals is animal cruelty, and its no joke. You want happy game animals, that are always in for life, and only one time of the year you want to come by and hunt them. Preferably around new years eve, because then you already have bangs of the fireworks going off. That is how a hunter hunts. Also before going, you want to go to the hunting field, and count the amount of the animal type you are going to hunt, then you know how many you should take to keep the numbers of them where they should be. Too often hunters dont care, and its not good for the animals, or the hunters in the long run (game animal numbers go down). Also exotic critters should be hunted down, and depending on the area that you are in, can be done all year round. If you are going for a hunt in the summer, you should take a gun that is silent/silenced, because you want to keep the game animals at ease. Have some dignity! Greetings, Jeff

Get to the point Boy..