SwordBot : On the Force Required to Penetrate Men’s 16th Century Upper Body Clothing

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Hands on CNC

Hands on CNC

4 жыл бұрын

Introduction and summary video regarding the Swordbot experiment. This is really the overview of a multi-part serise.. This video covers that basics of the findings and the machine.. Future videos will dive into the electro-mechanical components and how they were designed, made and integrated..
The paper is also available to be read here: independent.academia.edu/Hand...
#sca #HEMA #WMA

Пікірлер: 26
@zormau7989
@zormau7989 4 жыл бұрын
Having done non-scientific anecdotal experiments stabbing through old gambeson parts, I'd ask for future content about such tests to include information on edge geometry used and how well-honed the blade was. From my limited experience the edges make a big difference in how easily a blade will thrust through cloth. If it's not terribly sharp, but pointy, it'll push the fibers of the cloth apart, which provides quite some resistance. If the edge is properly sharpened with decent edge geometry (cf. Mike Edelson and Karl Bolle's method) and honed to shaving sharp, I've found that the blade will not push the fibers to the side, but rather cut straight through them with little resistance. A dull edge on my rondel dagger vs a sharp edge on the very same dagger was the difference between 5cm of penetration and basically going all the way to the hilt, almost 30cm, with what felt like similar force applied. End result was, however, similar to your findings: Cloth is not a good protection against thrusts with sharp blades.
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
Yes you anecdotal evidence is in line with some academic research that was used during the construction on the experiment regarding the science and geometry of sharpness... The tip of the sword was sharpened but the bevel and ground shape were not changed as it matched the contours of the period rapier that the blade was modeled off of... I don't go super deep into the topic of sharpness here, but it was a consideration and something that was discussed in the paper this video is related to.
@jasonbenson036
@jasonbenson036 4 жыл бұрын
Nice video! Thanks for sharing your research.
@dextermiksch5114
@dextermiksch5114 4 жыл бұрын
Nice! I'm looking forward to future videos staring "Sword Bot".
@Schmunzel57
@Schmunzel57 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks! What kind of silk did you use there very big differences in yarn thickness and waving. More then with linen… I searched around and found that trust protecting materials, like the steel ring stuff used be butchers is tested (in Germany) like: A box filled with clay up to the rim, a thin T-shirt cloth over it to make less mess, the Test material laid over it, which get clamped firmly to the rim of the box on all 4 sides. The Test blade is clamped onto a vertical running piece, that runs in rails like a drop hammer. The Sled/hammer head ways 100kg. It is dropped from 1m height. The Point is not allowed to pass through the protecting stuff more then 7mm. the Test blade has one side vertical, the other to form the point 45°. The Edge was sharpened to (if I remember correct) 30°) and only ground on the 45° angeled side. I bought 6 different pieces of mail to do some tests but never come close to do them. Maybe you could do that. Building the Machine is the most work and better than I would have done.
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
The silk used is a Shantung silk... I also had an interesting conversation with a weaver about how weave patterns could have significant impacts on how fabrics fail so there are always new factors to test and consider.. Thats the fun of science.. Its never answered completely.. It just answered for a specific set of conditions... New questions/conditions create new opportunities to explore and test and learn... I use ring mesh as my practice armor so I am quite familiar with the material though I did not know that testing procedure.. That is quite interesting. The machine could test armor, though I am leary of beating up my sharp rapier ;-)... I may need to look into other more disposable blade simulations :-).
@Schmunzel57
@Schmunzel57 4 жыл бұрын
@@HandsonCNC Could your setup deliver the power of 100kg dropping down one Meter?
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
I would have to do some math to determine if I can reach that much force.. If I remember my math during design and servo picking I should be able to get close.. (I believe I have about 850 N of available force)
@oddbodskins
@oddbodskins 4 жыл бұрын
That's interesting, though I wasn't aware anyone seriously expected even heavy period clothing to protect against thrusts. Cuts might be another matter, & I've certainly heard period clothing being put forward as a reason for the increased focus on the thrust. With that said, very impressive 😊
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
To be fair the argument has never been at the extreme ends of blade flex. However period rapier fighting does have standards that people claim are martially sound ranging from lightest predicable touch by that recipient to noticeable flex by an outside judge. That is actually a pretty wide range. The hope here is to narrow that range for those that wish to align blow calling with “what would a sharp rapier do to someone in period”.
@oddbodskins
@oddbodskins 4 жыл бұрын
@@HandsonCNC seems fair, though I think often that isn't about force, but penetration. Thinking of the thickness of most kit we have anything up to 10mm of penetration required to reach skin, & then probably another 20-40mm (potentially more depending on the individual) to reach the viscera. The lightest touches are unlikely to achieve this. I'm sorry though, I feel like I'm crapping on your work, which wasn't my intention at all, I'm very impressed with what you've done.
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
@@oddbodskins Productive conversations on the topic are never "crapping on your work" so all good :-) I think we also come from slightly different fencing cultures... My background is prodominately Society of Creative Anacronism. As such our armor standards are very thin (basically the linen doublet example). There is only 3 to 4mm of thickness in that armor standard as we are only armoring for critical failure not the force of the blow... As such we don't look to blow past armor and into a vital target.. (a historical note, di Grassi suggested that a puncture 3 fingers deep (which is, depending on the hand, about 40mm) would kill most.. Neither approach is wrong, we are all looking to exercise and improve the art.. :-)...
@oddbodskins
@oddbodskins 4 жыл бұрын
@@HandsonCNC huhm, unfortunately I frequently wind up dealing with people in heavy spes jackets. I think it's excessive myself, but I'd be a fool not to recognise the culture. I'm very curious now what 40mm of penetration would look like in terms of blade flex. That may be something I can play with 😊 That's di Grassi's advice, but he's only one source. Over a range of sources in the period you can find an equally broad range of advice, often within the same source, depending on circumstances. With that said I think for determining a 'valid' hit that range means historical advice may not be as much help as we'd like 😉
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
I need to find someone willing to buy me a few dozen of those ballistics gel mannequins they use on Forged in Fire.. THEN we could get some better visual data on penetration and outcomes ;-)
@Jakkaroo
@Jakkaroo 4 жыл бұрын
Any future plans to simulate multiple layers of protection / acceleration of the target toward the blade when intercepting a step or charge / thrusts without prior acceleration, with the tip already in contact with the target prior to pushing forward? Not an uncommon circumstance in close combat, particularly in the case of a double between two aggressive opponents. All sorts of historical accounts of both fighters stabbing each other in a clinch.
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
From a physics perspective what we need to test stop thrusts, multiple charing opponents and other conditions is the net vector between the two targets... To give an example... Two fighters rushing each other at 1000mm/s is the same as 1 fighter lunging at the other at 2000mm/s (1000 + 1000), which is also the same as a fighter rushing at their opponent at 2000mm/s and then hit by a stop thrust... As far as the point of impact is concerned (and the forces that transfer back to the quillions where I make my measurement) all 3 of those examples are the same (blade hits target at 2000mm/s)... The physical plane of reference may change, but the actual math doesn't.. Now a slow push would require a different motion path and is an interesting question (does the material yield differently if the force is applied slowly)... I have heard and debated a lots of contradicting ideas there so that a great question to experiment on.
@Jakkaroo
@Jakkaroo 4 жыл бұрын
I think there are some nuances beyond merely multiplying the force when the recipient of the wound is pushing onto the blade, but they'd be hard to account for without some rather complicated systems. For one, a step isn't purely lateral - all but the most disciplined thrusts will have an upward motion that could offset a point or assist it in wiggling through a resistant material. Regardless, yes; slow-pushes, and how different materials (thread counts and density, different kinds of weave that sever and part under pressure.. Especially when that pressure or the subject is moving).. That would be a good thing to explore, and does hold a pertinence to rapier in terms of the off-hand weapon becoming more than just a parrying tool when in a clinch, particularly between wounded opponents pushing beyond first blood.
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
your comments about the blade tip movement is actually touched on in the paper.. The thrust is mechanically "perfect" I noticed that there was nearly zero flex in the blade during the thrust.. And being mechanically perfect is great for removing confounds, however, it adds new questions around what about the arc of a tip as it drops or rises to it target.. This is why science is hard... and fascinating..
@Jakkaroo
@Jakkaroo 4 жыл бұрын
@@HandsonCNC Firmly agreed :> May your research be frustrating enough to be rigorous, but fruitful.
@Rocknoob49
@Rocknoob49 4 жыл бұрын
Me sparring against a newer fencer: Run Program - stab
@HandsonCNC
@HandsonCNC 4 жыл бұрын
Lol... the thoughts of using the bot as a drills machine has not eluded my notice ;-).... though it only has 1 shot so...... :-P
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