I didn't think the Red Wedding was very good writing-wise when I first saw it. I saw it coming from a mile away because it was being built up so much that I knew something had to go horribly wrong. It also came across as shock value to me because I was thinking, "Really? If you kill Robb off now, then his arc; the arc of a character whose point of view we've been following since the death of his dad in season 1, will amount to nothing. Kill him off now, and he will have the exact same impact on the story as he would have if these guys decided to kill him in season 1: nothing. For writing and investment's sake; don't kill him now; kill him after he does something." As a result of all this, Shrike's death in the Mortal Engines film got more emotional investment out of me than the Red Wedding. But that was all before TLJ and season 8; all that gave me some appreciation for the Red Wedding: at least it didn't come out of nowhere. Though I will say, you are absolutely correct about the things that are good about the Red Wedding and what is necessary for a good subversion of expectations.

I know you said you don't plan on doing just game of thrones but a look on the dany subversion in either the same format or as a comparison to this video would be amazing. Whether you agree with the Dany twist or not I would love to see you discuss it this way because I personally did not like it but I still found myself comparing certain points in this video to the Dany thing and being conflicted. Any way I thought it would be a cool idea. Awesome videos btw!

It was kind of cheating to pick Red Wedding as your episode ;) but fun you did participate in the collaboration

I pre-ordered your digital book but when does the physical one come out. Is it not going to be available on Amazon Canada?

Will you ever put your book on iBooks or make a physical copy?

I was just about to write this comment and then saw it was already the top one haha

He isnt a genius. Hes just using common sense.

@@IIDEADBIRDII No doubt. But I'm also commenting on his execution of the line itself.

This is so true. I thought Walder Frey was being too nice and I *still* didn't see it coming. I should have seen it and I didn't.

And thats why season finale isnt as bad as you think

tahts cause you can read subtle clues too :P

thats a great way to describe it. that's why Dany's downfall kinda makes more sense the more I watch clips of season 1. I know a lot of people feel differently though.

@@ziltoidtheomniscient2398 after the red wedding i knew dany was inevitably going to go "mad" I started paying more attention to these little details and they kept saying this from the first episode!

@@ziltoidtheomniscient2398 Yeah, I think Dany was always meant to go mad, just that the execution of it in season 8 sucks.

@@Eukleides89 Dany's crucifixion of the slave masters and her burning of Sam's family and many more subtler clues all have forshadowed Dany's slow descent into madness. I definitely agree the whole 'taking of King's Landing' should have had atleast 5 episodes

That would honestly be amazing!

I wouldn’t put it past d & d

As stupid as that would be, at least it would open up the door for a redo of the series. Though I would be fine if they started from late season 3 / early season 4 for a redo. Up to that point almost everything was close to perfect.

Would not put that past them

"My lord?" "On second thought, let's not go to kings landing. It's a silly place "

i was careful not to spoil that for everyone that hadn't read the books :P but I can say I did throw the book across the room I was so shocked.

I'm so sad i saw this scene before even knowing about the show, that's actually after seeing this scene that i started to watch GoT but so the red weddings had no effect on me i knew it was going to happen :(

GOT season 1-4 is the best television in history. Change my mind.

Doki Doki I couldn't agree more!!! :)

Memorable, yes. Good, I don't know. Considering how awful the GoT world is, I'd liked to see Rob's arc more than pretty much any other character's. I stopped watching GoT after this episode since it was no longer interesting, what came after has always felt like watching people fight to the death for the shiniest turd. It's a great show, expertly produced and acted. To me it just lost all the stakes instantly in exchange for shock value.

😂😂😂

@@Poroner I thought they were writing a bunch of bad seasons, so they coud subvert our expectations by making the final season good. Well it was a double subversion. The last season was horrible. Ya got me Benioff. Ya got me.

Why

Your were not paying attention to season 7 then.

That was season 7 for me.

It would have been so good to watch her slow decent into madness (preferably over at least 1 season) instead of a couple of episodes

It all comes down to Young Griff. Without him so much of Dany's descent into madness just doesn't make sense.

@@iaingoldie1542 As Martin once said about the show - small change of killing a character here or missing character there will have a butterfly affect on the story that is to come.

Dany should be Macbeth essentially

@@iaingoldie1542 yep. When she was burning the innocents, thats when i thought, "whoA , so martin's gonna turn her into madqueen, damn!that would be interesting to read with these griffin characters . Guess thats why he introduced them so later in the books" . He needed them for these.

Axiantia or just good in general

I really liked Daenerys' going mad

Nicholas Engel I definitely agree that it would have been a interesting IF it was pulled off well. It was literally only there for shock value with very little lead up to her suddenly killing a bunch of innocent people

@@axiantia I actually was waiting for several seasons for her to finally show her evil/mad side. I was actually very happy and finally liked her character again when she started killing civilians

Nicholas Engel Look, I agree completely. I was just waiting for her to go mad as well. The thing is, they pulled it off terribly. They had some foreshadowing but nothing showing us how she turned. Instead it was like a sudden switch was flipped with no explanation. Again, I would have loved for her to go mad. It would be amazing to watch and really interesting. It’s just that what she did last episode went against everything the character stood for and nothing really showed us what made her truly go mad. All in all, this entire season was rushed and should have been 10 episodes to really explore her going mad

eoe123321 really? Wow! Why did he say greywind?

The whole of Westros knew to fear that song.

Honestly Robb was so stupid throughout his campaign you should've seen it coming

@@RoDiggity3743 Oh, I did. I knew he wasn't coming out of this season alive. As they said, he lost the war the moment he married a common girl and broke his promise to Lord Frey, and when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. The scene is still touching, though.

@@nenegrey2282 he lost it the moment he ignored everyone who counciled him and cut off Karstarks head. As they told him he WOULD lose their men for doing it. He could've held him prisoner until the war was over and wouldn't have lost the men. This is the part where you realize he was his father x 2 with the righteous stupidity

is it like when dany forgot about the iron fleet?

@oROGUEo im pretty sure the person knows. He/she was going along with the joke

@oROGUEo People forget things. Quite simple.

the quality of this season is real subversion. you expected it to be good. but the themes and logical narrative of the past 3 seasons should have made it clear it would be a terrible season. it subverts the trope of having an epic finale.

I mean, they went from adapting a book series to writing their own end in 6 episodes, it's not really surprising it flopped.

I'm a slow learner, it's true...but I do learn

Lol yep. "wUt dO DrAGoNs eVeN eAt aNyWay?"

Honestly even before it happened I expected something like it. that's just have the series had been going to that point. the exact manner and total fallout was a surprise though.

Ponibius s5 was the least season with consequences for a characters actions (Jon’s death and Cersei’s walk of shame )

DnD " we're going to send one of the lead characters with 6 fan favorite secondary characters north of the wall into the heart of the most dangerous lands" Fans: "What will it cost?" DnD: "a couple red shirts and a secondary character" Fans: "oh...giving everyone plot armor, then? Well, what will be achieved?" DnD: "Narratively.... Nothing. But it'll pad a few episodes..."

AND exactly why I "noped out" at the onset... I get BAD feelings when the TV starts spouting a series even before the books are finished... Serials (TV) move faster than books. It's systemic... AND with a writer as careful to craft as Martin, it's a cinch the TV-trash is just going to take up a formulaic machination... just as quickly as they can get the Craftsman out the door. ;o)

@@qayyuma9622 I would probably say the High Sparrow fits the bill too

Funny enough, Arya "dulled" a lot of people permanently under the guise of having a drink at a party.

He mentioned that

He said that in the video

With the writer's currently method he'd just have asked Dany how she gets her men to respawn then just hammer away all day to get every man he needs to win the war.

It was maybe foreshadowing, but foreshadowing is not character development.

@@UdyKumra yes that is what is stated

That's a great way to describe it.

This comment basically nails it.

"Obviously the meteor was foreshadowed in S02E01, were you see a red meteor in the sky" - D&D

Vro. Me to

@@dennishogan5696 I actually think that show's version is better. It is such a great scene, where in the book it's just good

In the books he just goes “you’ll give my regards to Robb stark” or something. It’s great though.

I think Arya should have teleport backstabbed Robb at the Wedding, that would have subverted my expectations even more, making it even better... right?

Lee Moffat I think Jon should go ‘mad’ in the next episode and become a totally different character too! That’d be sick!

@@vinsanityreviews Yeah, he always was a dragon..

I agreed with you until your last sentence. And this is why: "When someone tells you who they are the first time, believe them." People are often blinded when they are emotionally invested in someone. When that person does something iffy, especially to someone disliked, people tend to makes excuses. Many of Daenerys' fans failed to note her reaction at the poetic, but horrendous death of her brother at the hand of her husband Khal Drogo. She did not behave normally at all. Furthermore, they still cheered her on when her response to any issue was to kill the people who were, or who she thought was in her way. No-one asks if it was politically or morally wise for her to do it. Even when she killed the Tarlys for choosing "not to bend the knee" instead of imprisoning or banishing them, it seemed that everyone thought the ends justified the means. The truth is Daenerys was always going to go too far. Her youthful inexperience, narcissism, and overweening confidence mean she lacks real insight into her self and her circumstances to avoid using the nuclear option, and becoming the very thing she swore to destroy - a lethal tyrant. The only problem with the show is that the showrunners ran out of stamina. They were offered a 10 episode season by HBO, but they had had enough. They were going to Disney, and insisted they could wrap up the story in 6. They served themselves better than the story. Season 8 was underwritten and rushed. Not enough was laid out for everyone to be satisfied, and for some that dissatisfaction has shifted to anger. Well, I'm disappointed but not angry. There's more happening in the real world to be mad at for me to go there for a TV show. I'm disappointed in the choices made, but not surprised. That's the way Hollywood works. And the showrunners ran the show into the ground because of their impatience. But, what can we learn from this? Firstly, showrunners may have too much power. As D & D ran out of steam, the end product should have been handed on to those willing and able to maintain the storytelling. Their impatience to get things over and done should have been a red flag to HBO, but the Sunk Cost fallacy kicked in. No-one likes to change jockeys during a race, right? But this wasn't a horse race, and past results do not guarantee future returns, especially when your key players are burnout. They should have been replaced but they weren't.

BigHenFor I’m going to subvert expectations and not read a word you said. That would equal same amount of thought the writers had for season 8...

Or be Arya in the middle of a battle

The last season was actually quite good apart from the strategic choices in the long night

I don’t know why people were surprised when the quality of the writing declined when they didn’t have book material to rely on. Of course D&D aren’t as good writers as GRRM, people would be stupid to think that WOULDNT happen. The reason people think this season is so bad isn’t because the writing is TERRIBLE but because everything is terrible compared to the masterful writing of GRRM and the production team behind his ideas for the first four seasons

The sad part is that the acting and production for the sets is still amazing, it's just the writing that's really bad.

Nicholas Engel The Long Night is from this current season. It none of this season has been very good at all.

@@TheMurrmursonbottle great observation. I've been saying this for the longest

What millitary "genius"

It didnt help that he had the worst help in Westeros lol

@@siddharth8184 The kind of genius that defeat it Tywin Lannister in every battle they fought

Which Robb? Seems like both

Siddharth The military genius who defeated Tywin Lannister in all their battles. He won 3 battles and was absolutely whooping tywins ass.

Exactly

I knew it's gonna be a shitty ending from the moment on when Cersei suffered no consequences of blowing up the Sept of Baelor, I knew the show's only gonna get worse from that point on

Neel, Well said. 🙆‍♀️

Haha yeah, I feel you. I read it first. It was in the middle of the night. I thought for myself "just one more chapter". I was very tired. Then, like, how it ended. Jesus Christ. I got fully awake and kept reading the whole night!

When I first saw the episode, I was shocked during all the evening. And the editing also makes the end of the episode darker, as the footages continues a few seconds after Cathlyn is killed, without any music, including in the credits

I watched it the next day after my father died. He was a fan of the first season and I started watching it because of him. I cried so much and wondered how could this story go on? Both in the show and in my life, then I watched the next episode and realized it was all a dance between hope and despair...

I watched this late at night with my sister and we had to watch Pets TV afterwards in order to go to bed

Same, I had to rewatch this scene three until I realised they would not come back from the dead

Someone yeah, such a long time ago... it’s been like, what, a week?

@@Christian-vq3lr 4 years...

Viorp even if you didn’t like the battle of winterfell and the first few episodes, last weeks episode was really good, and the previous season was also good, so I don’t know where this 4 years thing comes from

@@Christian-vq3lr All of the Dorne plot, Arya surviving multiple stab wounds and then swimming through filthy water, Ramsay plot armour and his 20 Good Men, Tyrion turning stupid once he meets Daenerys, Varys doing the same, Littlefinger being dumbed down so he can be wrecked by 'super-smart' Sansa. Teleporting Ironborn Fleets that are built in no time on the Iron Isles which have practically no timber. Everything related to the Walkers after Hardhome, especially the episode where Dany goes beyond the wall and loses a Dragon. Arya becoming a better fighter than Brienne. Euron 'Finger-In-The-Bum' Greyjoy. Brienne finding both Sansa and Arya on her wild goose chase. Stannis sacrificing Shireen to try to beat Ramsay instead of doing it when it actually would matter like against the Walkers. Bronn and Jaime plot armour in their fight against Daenerys. Really I could probably go on and on if I spent more than 5 minutes thinking of the problems the show has had, especially from season 5 onwards. Also, you should note that I haven't even started talking about the problems in Season 8 which somehow manage to surpass everything I've mentioned already. So yeah, it has been a long time since it was good, you're just delusional because there were MOMENTS when it was good in the last few seasons and you were constantly looking forward to THE PAYOFF like everyone else who only started to accept how bad it's gotten now instead of realising that it had dropped in quality a long time ago.

"Dany kind of forgot about the Iron fleet"

Brianna Johnson But his sisters have learnt well from the Lannisters

@@avekatumba4794 Jon has learned how to bring people together and lead them, Sansa has the politics, Robb would be the battle tactition, Arya the Faceless Assassin, Bran can get the intel...What would Rickon's role have been?

@@breezy3392 mascot

Hmmmmmm foreshadowing for jon snow.

Brianna Johnson Rickon would be the bait. Lol

idk why that scene dont get as much attention as red wedding gets, it was equally shocking.

@@mkalyan4289 the red wedding includes established characters from episode 1 who constitute a massive part of the overall show's content/plot - we expect to see a lot more of Robb's since the show seems based around his war with the Lannisters following Ned's death. Oberyn's death was shocking but it didn't change too much of the show and its seemingly established future plot, I think

@@mkalyan4289 it was more shocking for me than this scene. When I watched the series I hadn't started the books, but I found it very weird that Walder would shrug off the promise that a Stark would marry a Frey, when Cat spent quite some episodes setting up the nasty reputation of the Freys. It was just, "something's odd, something's going to happen." With Oberyn, we had a couple of episodes getting to know him very little, but enough to root for him. And he had the duel, but the twist was too sudden, and gruesome. We barely had a second to process 10 seconds ago he had won before his head exploded.

@@wudz4372 not a single part of me expected the 'Red Wedding' based on the wedding that happened moments before. But I agree that because Oberyn wasn't established it was shocking to see him die rather than someone who might have been in the show for longer. Gotta admit after the Red Wedding I was always on edge for every character haha

Oberyn's death in the books was more meaningful than in the show. Mostly because in the fifth season of the TV series, the Dorne storyline was not explored as well as it was in the books.

and if you didn't like it, you just say that because you didn't see it coming.

@GenericGamer no.227 oh my friend i totally agree with you, i said my comment as sarcasm, in fact even GRRM said in one of his interviews that he could always just bring aliens at the end of the show and it'd surprise the readers, but it wouldn't be a good story telling.

@GenericGamer no.227 oh lol, i never r/whoooosh, because it usually leads to a fight, and i really don't like online fights xD

What's this about Dungeons and Dragons?

The crazy thing is I genuinely was depressed that whole week after I watched it, I also had terrible dreams. Will never forget it

Or when Bran becomes king and Jon Snow is cast away like a nobody. Bran said earlier in the season that he could not become Lord of Winterfell because he was the three eyed raven yet he's perfectly fine becoming king because Tyrion had a nice speech? Come on. Also, nowhere ever in his story did it even hint at him becoming king and half a million people had to die for him to get there but 'everything that's happened has brought us where we are now'. It feels like D&D rolled a dice and chose at random. Jon Snow would have been fine as king. We expected it but that doesn't matter. He went from a bastard, to the leader of his friend group in the night's watch, to the commander of the night's watch, to the King in the North and then is the true heir to the iron throne. Him becoming king finishes his arc perfectly. Yet D&D had to be geniuses and 'SUbveRt mY ExpECtaTiOns' by casting him out because Grey Worm (a powerless soldier) said so. People will say, "Being north of the wall is what he wanted." He sure didn't seem happy when Tyrion told him and it always seemed liked Tormund wanted Jon to be north of the wall more than Jon ever did. 'The lone wolf dies but the pack survives'. NONE OF THE STARKS WILL EVER SEE EACH OTHER AGAIN. I loved this show more than anything and I defended it all of season 7 and 8 but the final episode was the most stupid and most unsatisfying things I have ever watched.

Because there's a jump in logic. She's always been bloodthirsty, but specifically for those who do evil. She's always been protective of the weak and the downtrodden. So one day people are mean to her and she decides to kill everyone? It was never about herself.

Just somebody please, please tell that to D&D

Good* script writers

He used court politics to win, using the faith militant’s power and the king’s approval to win. He didn’t expect Cersei to blow up the Sept, a complete disrespect and insult to politics and rules. He expected fear. He didn’t expect her to not care about any of their lives.

@@michaeldeboer9940 Ok, fair point. He underestimated Cercei's willingness to sacrifice her ilk. The High Sparrow had the arrogance to assume he knew the mind's of big players of the game.

Same. I might start reading the books now in preparation for the newest book.

Exact same situation, but I read the books instead. However, I knew the Red wedding was coming and my jaw still hit the floor. I saw all the clues ahead of time and I was literally shaking with uncontrollable tension. there were also other unpredictable elements I wasn't privy to, like, do you know what they did the their bodies in the books? It's really sick and made me loathe that fat bastard. (Lord Frey.)

i guess i have no heart.

@@marineros2000 you have a *heart* of *stone*

I was laughing at the red wedding. No, I'm not joking and no, I'm not a psychopath

Oh no, it's true x.x

What's next "one godly scene"(Godzilla series),"one heroic academia scene"(my hero academia ),"out of this world"(series with space in them like star wars or star Trek"

@Gaurav Prahash Even though these are not happening you just made me very hype.

I had to replay that, myself. "Am I mishearing that? Who is Terry Brooks? Is that a nickname??"

Praise be to our Supreme Leader!

what happened to it anyway... they explained it at all?

@@ppsarrakis Euron had them blockaded from the sea and Jaime used it as a distraction to take highgarden. I don't think they kept it for long.

If Tywin had still been alive it would have meant more, as the perception of his family was important to him and losing their ancestral home is a bad look. He didn't care for the castle but he wouldn't be happy about losing it. Jaime doesn't give a damn about it but correctly predicts that Tyrion thinks they do - that Tyrion is fighting Tywin in his mind, not his brother and sister. That said, Tyrion is supposed to be smart enough that he would understand how his siblings feel about their family home and would not support taking it.

nailed it.

Yeah, I believe that the expectations that were subverted were our romanticized views on stories, where, despite the hero's stupidity and folly, he always manages to stand proud over adversity. Logical conclusions are often disregarded in favour of said romantic storytelling, so that's why GRRM's subversion of the tropes is so effective. He subverted the reality of how stories are often told.

I think its more that those expectations are grounded in human nature. We want the people we care about to be happy and do well. The best stories are the ones that make us feel things, that make us like or understand the characters taking part in them. When you develop characters like Ned and Robb Stark we attach to them because they are noble, loyal and good. Even if they make mistakes we still root for them because they are good people we care about. We can't control it, because its in human nature to hope for the best in the face of the harsh nature of the world.

Homie that was literally his point in this video

cute!

This is for the show, thought that was fairly obvious.

We get it, you read the books

wow he was just joking around why would you 2 correct him or mock him ... @Nikhil Krishnan @Royal

He pointed it out briefly

You're a genius, everyone wanted Robb Stark's unborn child to die in amazingly gore fashion.

The funniest thing is every "twist" they've made in season 8 aren't really unpredictable you could see them coming a mile away, they were just the easiest outcome for the characters without logic. Yes our expectations were subverted because we thought something much smarter and interesting would happen.

@@extraplain2412 the fact that they disregarded the azor ahai prophecy was pretty surprising to me. Unless they flip it and say that Dany is that apocalyptic occurance that was foretold by the religions of two different continents. Which would be really surprising since she is not the first mad Targaryen with a dragon. Im really curious if they are just gonna disregard it completely or say that the azor ahai killing his love was true but the whole lightbringer and her sacrificie being necessary for the win wasnt true. But yeah the rest are like: yeah you suprised me...by chosing the most uninspired possibilites. Although I'll give them the nightking story not explored as they plan a whole new series to dive into that (not that I care for that series at all but at least i can see some coherent idea behind it)

@@nemdenemam9753 Yeah why even bring it up at all if they aren't going to follow up on it? At this point I'm not expecting any answers to anything set up that they will hide behind "it's good to leave things ambigious". I'm expecting the finale to try to be surprising but there's nothing left of the story other then what's obviously going to happen. I was excited when I heard they were doing a prequel but now that I know this is what happens to the night king and the white walkers I kinda don't really care anymore. There might be a hint to them in the last episode but even that will feel like a cop out since we're at the end. Unless they plan to pick GoT up in 10 or so years it doesn't really matter what happens. It's a depressing feeling.

@@extraplain2412 Nope, no hint no nothing. It was probably the most unsatisfying ending I could've think of and yet that is exactly what happened. The Night King was just evil, Cersei was just mean, Bran's powers were useless, Daenerys went crazy just because, Jon was brought to life to have a meaningless ending, Arya was inmortal and turned into Christopher Columbus because...? And I'm falling short.

Is it a spoiler of its THAT obvious?

All hail Mishka!

Hey get out boy! It’s Hot Pie and I am ready to fight for him

Who the hell is Miskha?! You mean Mhysa??

well, GRRM said he could always make aliens come down to earth at the end and it'll surprise the audience, but it wouldn't be a good story.

Me sounds like a wise person

He even says to Jaime that he doesn't drink in a previous episode. That's why its imo both a hint and a misdirection. It is consistent with his character but its also meant to be suspicious because in that same exchange Jamie notes how odd it looks to other people.

Rlack Babbit only if you have a very very dark sense of humor! 😅

The Entertrollment version certainly manages to be. ;)

Yes, it was hilarious

No but S8E5 certainly way. At least I laughed throughout, I'm not kidding. The supposed "tragedy" had no impact on me because it did not make sense to me. But you always have to ask "to what end"? You can subvert expectations in all manner of ways, that does not mean they all aim for the same kind of response. You can be amused, shocked, horrified, humbled, compelled, fascinated and (many more emotions) with unexpected twists. Really depends on the context and content of the subversion.

I have only seen the first couple episodes of season 1 so...

Its not. I haven't either.

Depends how old you are

*The frick are you doing with your life..*

Lucky you, you don't have to experience a good setup with a terrible payoff.