The Church's Teachings on Universalism - with Fr. Stephen De Young

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The Church's Teachings on Universalism - with Fr. Stephen De Young

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Ancient Faith

Күн бұрын

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@semipelagianpangolin Ай бұрын

Fr. Stephen is an absolute treasure, and the Orthodox Church is so lucky to have him. His balance of the academic/intellectual with the spiritual as well as the pastoral helped me break down the doors to Christ that I didn't think could ever be opened again.

@orthodox1717 Ай бұрын

No such thing as luck. Thank God for Fr. Stephen.

@semipelagianpangolin Ай бұрын

@@orthodox1717 true! I'm trying to break that habit... I say "luck" when I mean "blessing", and honestly I think it's because of how much time I spent being very much... not Christian, and resentful of the insincere Christian language and culture I felt surrounded by.

@faithfultita1585 Ай бұрын

Actively living my Orthodox faith, Answers all my questions I didn’t know I had. I read the Orthodox study Bible with comments, in an app on my iPhone/ipad, twice! (Mixed one year plan). It was the greatest journey of treasure hunt anyone could ever imagine!!! I listen to, and read everything Orthodox and LOVE it! Doing my best to get to heaven, and to take as many as I can with me☦️❤️ No, my life struggles are not what I would choose, but what I’ve been given. My husband has vascular dementia and Alzheimer’s. More of a struggle for me than for him. I’m holding on to ☦️ I can do all things through Christ who strengthen me☦️❤️

@andrewternet8370 Ай бұрын

New Fr Stephen just dropped

@feeble_stirrings Ай бұрын

This is excellent. I so appreciate hearing from Fr. Stephen!

@mandyvatougios2447 21 күн бұрын

Thankyou for this amazing documentary!! And what a priveledge to have access to Fth Steven De Young's knowledge..a wealth of information..setting things straight..Glory be to God!!!

@user-qg1oq8it7c Ай бұрын

Mark 16: 15 - 16 Peace, joy and the love of Christ Jesus be with you.

@jberg588 Ай бұрын

I just realized that Fr. Stephen has a row super hero action figures on the top of the shelf in the background.

@straightjak1t Ай бұрын

What’s even more crazy is that I just noticed that about 2 seconds before I saw your comment! 😂😂😂

@davidlyons6235 21 күн бұрын

If it's not wrong to hope God will save all, then the next logical questions are: 1. What is hope? 2. Why hope for it? 3. Would the salvation all be the best possible outcome?

@alfmaxey6090 Ай бұрын

Thank you Fr.Stephen and host for the discussion,much to think about here.

@troyyurchak3213 Ай бұрын

I love this approach...yes, have the hope, but I must keep my thoughts on hell and do not despair. Lord have mercy!!

@Dragoncurve Ай бұрын

Excellent stuff!

@alexsn6442 Ай бұрын

Wait, you’re Orthodox? I watch your Godzilla stuff and had no idea 😭😂. God bless bro

@Dragoncurve Ай бұрын

@@alexsn6442 I’m not Orthodox yet unfortunately haha. But I and my fiancé would very much like to be 😂 Hoping we can start being catechumens soon! God bless you too!

@AncientFaithMinistries Ай бұрын

Thank you!

@Dragoncurve Ай бұрын

@@AncientFaithMinistries thank you for the great content! I listen to Lord of Spirits all the time and love the Whole Counsel of God podcast! I have the Orthodox Study Bible and it’s been a massive blessing

@michaelbasileos Ай бұрын

Whoa. I love your channel. God bless you on your journey!

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

Respectfully, I'd like to make some objections to some of the points made in this interview. 1. St Gregory of Nyssa was definitely a universalist. As someone who's read and studied most of his major works, I've been a little bothered by a seemingly recent upsurge of people claiming that he wasn't a universalist. All you have to do is read some of what he actually wrote. He's really quite explicit. For now I'll just say if you don't believe me read his In Illud. That's just the work where he gets into it the most, but he's really just as explicit in many of his other works. 2. Universalism doesn't get rid of God 's justice at all. It simmply understands God's justice as corrective. All of the select few universalist Saints believed in hell. And believed that it most likely lasted a very long time. But they didn't believe that it was never ending. They believed that God does not punish endlessly just for the sake of it. But that he punishes to correct his loved creations in order to one day bring them back to him. In other words, God punishes with the purpose of healing soul, while fully maintaining his justice. 3. There was a time in church history when universalism was a common and accepted point of view. We can even look to sources who disagreed with universalism to see this. St Augustine in the City of God states “There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments” and St Basil says in his De Asceticis “The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished.” so we see clearly from these non universalist early church fathers that it was actually a common and acceptable view in the early church. 4. Similar to my second point, universalists still believe in hell. So there is still reason to repent, to seek Christ, and to pray for the dead. Who knows how long hell lasts? Could feel like millions of years or even billions depending on one's sins. And personally that sounds like more than enough motivation to repent and avoid Hell.

@robertfortuin1750 Ай бұрын

Right on - great points you make. And yes, as a universalist I can affirm each point. When will people stop misrepresenting us????

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

@robertfortuin1750 Good question! Maybe when people begin actually reading St Gregory instead of parroting stuff they heard about him online. You don't have to agree with him but you can't deny he makes very strong arguments.

@troyyurchak3213 Ай бұрын

I still think his point of recognizing hell as a reality for myself while maintaining hope for everyone else is a wise place to land. Not that the points you share aren't required to weigh this issue, but if I positively believe nothing I or anyone else does matters in eternity, humanity as a whole will not have motivation for pursuing being like Christ and calling others to be like him either. As someone who was a universalist (with much nuance) before becoming orthodox I appreciate being able to hope while still having real consequences to being like or unlike Christ.

@dashcamacademy6457 Ай бұрын

@@troyyurchak3213 I don't know any universalists who believe, "nothing I or anyone else does matters in eternity". What we do matters a lot. I have explained this time and again. There are consequences for our actions, who wants to be sick?

@troyyurchak3213 Ай бұрын

@dashcamacademy6457 understood...I meant in the "final" whatever that is...if all achieve salvation even through hell...what does it matter if I live like Christ now...I can just "put it on my tab"....hoping the purification process is worth the momentary satisfaction of the present fulfilling of my passions. Not saying that it doesn't matter in the process but looking at it's completion. To your question, who wants to be sick...as an American I know plenty of people that would rather be sick with medications to mask symptoms than change their behavior...so I have less trust in "who wants to be sick?" As a strong argument...it's often not enough for people to change if it all washes out in the end.

@clarion1571 Ай бұрын

I think that modern Universalism is sort of a reaction to the sorts of visions of God we are presented with in theories like Calvinism. Sort of the antithesis to the God who loves to condemn. I was attracted to it at one point because of that. So to fix the above the doctrine we have God save everyone eventually. This is another instance in which Orthodoxy comes from a totally different theological worldview, and one that fits neither of these visions of God.

@AncientFaithMinistries Ай бұрын

This is a good insight

@lasetat Ай бұрын

Is that correct, to say that the Calvinst God loves to condemn?

@IrishEddie317 19 күн бұрын

I come here this morning in repentance for the angry comments that I have made, especially in telling anybody with whom I disagree to shut the hell up. This is neither holy, respectful of the priests whom God has ordained, nor Christ-like. I ask to be forgiven for my anger, and may God forgive a fool like me.

@LizzyTwifehomemaker 11 күн бұрын

About Calvinism and free will. Calvinists actually do believe in free will, and we believe in God's sovereignty and predestination. How? Both are completely true at the same time. Just like the Trinity is a mystery with God being both three and one at the same time, God both is completely in control and predestines everything, while at the same time, we freely choose. We won't ever fully understand it, and I think the beauty of it all is that you don't have to. Its ok. The best analogy I've ever heard for the Calvinist perspective is this. Did Frodo in the Lord of the Rings freely choose to take the Ring to Mordor, or did Tolkien make him do it? The answer is "Yes." The same with us except here both the contents of the book and the author are both equally and completely real at the same time. God is unsearchable and beyond our understanding. Blessed be HIs name!

@lasetat Ай бұрын

Would be interested to hear Fr. De Young talk more about the Calvinist God not being free. That's not my understanding but I know he's put way more thought into it that I have.

@AncientFaithMinistries Ай бұрын

Fr. Stephen gave a more in depth treatment of the problem of God's lack of freedom in this episode of Lord of Spirits: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ateJo9SGqZ7RaHk.html&ab_channel=AncientFaith

@JmsCaray-fx8qx 23 күн бұрын

GOD is free will, otherwise only GOD would have had the power to create a limitation on his actions, which is nowhere to be found in scripture …just something made up by the modern philosophers of our time…it sounds so new and modern that our itching ears just has to have more of it…how lucky is this generation to have the likes of AFR and deYoung to share this philosophy with our itching ears…but know that GOD is not mocked…GOD is GOD, the Father almighty, whose will is done here on earth as it is in Heaven

@LizzyTwifehomemaker 11 күн бұрын

Sadly most Orthodox leaders don't really understand how Calvinists think, even though they think they do (take it from a Calvanist who listens to a lot of Orthodox material and has a lot of respect for the Orthodox). The same goes for Protestants about Orthodox. You would be better served listening to Calvinists themselves to determine what you think their beliefs are, just like you're better served listening to Orthodox about what their beliefs are (not to Protestants saying what they think their beliefs are). Sadly both sides woefully misrepresent the other (not intentionally).

@LizzyTwifehomemaker 11 күн бұрын

About Calvinism and free will. We actually do believe in free will, and we believe in God's sovereignty and predestination. How? Both are completely true at the same time. Just like the Trinity is a mystery with God being both three and one at the same time, God both is completely in control and predestines everything, while at the same time, we freely choose. We won't ever fully understand it, and I think the beauty of it all is that you don't have to. Its ok. The best analogy I've ever heard for the Calvinist perspective is this. Did Frodo in the Lord of the Rings freely choose to take the Ring to Mordor, or did Tolkien make him do it? The answer is "Yes." The same with us except here both the contents of the book and the author are both equally and completely real at the same time. God is unsearchable and beyond our understanding. Blessed be HIs name!

@lasetat 10 күн бұрын

@@LizzyTwifehomemaker Blessed be His name, indeed! Thanks for the great LOTR analogy. Have never heard that 🙏

@MattisWell.20 11 күн бұрын

Justice is God ultimately restoring everything to its right place, and that if there is any kind of punishment, it is only a means to an end, never an end in itself. So in order for there to be justice in the world in the ultimate sense, all things and everyone must be restored to their right place in one way or another. Otherwise, can we even say justice is being had? Unless justice is something other than God restoring everything to its right place like the Calvinists and other Infernalists believe, then it doesn’t really look like there can be true justice now, does it?

@TheRadChadDad Ай бұрын

☦️☦️☦️

@NavelOrangeGazer Ай бұрын

I find it interesting a lot of origen apologists try to claim those fathers like St. Gregory of Nyssa preach the same universalism that was condemned when St. Gregory explicitly does not teach that those hardened like the devil will be saved as Fr. Stephen stated in the opener. Related to this does the philocalia of origen compiled by the Cappadocian fathers still exist? If so its something that desperately needs a readily accessible english translation.

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

Gregory literally taught that the devil would be saved. And in his catechism no less! In his Great catechism chapters 24- 26 he says first “Even the adversary himself will not be likely to dispute that what took place was both just and salutary” and later he states "[Christ] accomplished all the results before mentioned, freeing both man from evil, and healing even the introducer of evil himself”

@Ortho_Clips Ай бұрын

@@theheckplays2252you have to be on some serious drugs to read this that way

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

@@Ortho_Clips I guess you could read it as the devil might be saved. But he states without any asterix that he will be healed. Who do you think the "introducer of evil" is? On another note, one of the lines of logic St Gregory uses in his In Illud to come to the conclusion of universalism, Is that if we take Paul's line that Christ will fill "all in all" literally, then there will no longer be any evil left in the universe. He States in the same work that this universal restoration applies to "every rational being", he states this with zero qualifications. So you take both works into account, and what conclusion do you come to? You can at least see how it makes sense to read Gregory in the way I posited above.

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

@@Ortho_Clips I guess you could read it as the devil might be saved. But he does say without any asterix that he will be healed. Also if you read his In Illud, a big part of Gregory's logic for universalism is found in the apostle Paul's statement that Christ will fill "all in all" Gregory believes that if we take this statement literally then necessarily there will be no evil left in the universe whatsoever. He says that this universal restoration applies to "every rational being" full stop no qualifications. So you can see how by reading both of these works, his Great Catechism and his In Illud, the reading I posited above is valid. Or at least plausible.

@theheckplays2252 Ай бұрын

@@Ortho_Clips I guess you could read it as the devil might be saved. But he does say in the above quote without any asterisks that he will be healed. And if you read St Gregory's In Illud, a big part of his logic for universalism comes from the Apostle Paul's statement that God will fill "all in all". He says that if we take this saying literally then we must affirm that there will be no evil left in the universe whatsoever. He states that this universal restoration will apply to "all rational beings" he states this with no qualifications. So you can see that by reading a variety of his works, the reading I posited above is valid. Or at least plausible.

@DM100 27 күн бұрын

I hope they cover the scriptural support for hopeful universalism. “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

@IrishEddie317 20 күн бұрын

@@DM100 *Gasp* How dare you give facts?!?

@OrthodoxPhilip Ай бұрын

What an awful statement that the necessity of a knowledge of Christ for salvation is a "Protestant" teaching and the same doctrine as Sola Fide. Of course, the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven by which men can be saved, and that is absolutely Orthodox! "For then [before Christ] it was sufficient for salvation, as I have said already, to know God only; but now it is so no more, but there is a need also of the knowledge of Christ." (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 36 on the Gospel of Matthew).

@IrishEddie317 27 күн бұрын

"Universalism does not produce repentance, and it does not produce the desire to change things." Really?? I wonder how Father DeYoung would explain away the first 500 years of Christianity and the amazing growth of itt when Universalism was the premier teaching of the Church? Honestly, the more I listen to the apologetics of those who believe in eternal conscious torment, the less respect I have for them in general. People who will not listen to facts do not impress me, and the facts for Universalism are right there where everybody can see them.

@AncientFaithMinistries 27 күн бұрын

Keep listening to the full interview, Fr. Stephen covers whether rejecting universalism means you have to accept eternal conscious torment as the only other alternative near the end.

@frandrewstephendamick 25 күн бұрын

Universalism has never been a teaching of the Church, certainly not "premier" in the first 500 years. This is very obvious to anyone who has read Christian literature from the period.

@IrishEddie317 25 күн бұрын

@@frandrewstephendamick Having listened to your series on the various religions which have cropped up over the centuries, I must respect the fact that you are well-versed in historical Christianity. Yet, I find it funny that there was never a council to condemn those many Fathers of the Church who openly espoused this teaching. There are people who are saying that four of the six theological schools of the Early Church taught Universalism. Is this a distortion of the truth? Blessed Augustine stated that there were a "great many" who openly espoused Universalism. Am I wrong in believing (as I was told by others) that there is no official catechism in Orthodoxy and that eschatology therefore is kind of a toss up of individual opinions? If there is an official catechism, which one is it? The hardest thing for me to get over in this debate is the understanding of Creatio Ex Nihlo, that is, that God, foreknowing that mankind would fall into sin and thus condemn billions of sentient beings to an eternity in useless suffering (this is assuming that ECT is true) nonetheless went ahead with the Creation, having no need to do so since He is perfect and lacking in nothing in Himself. This means that from the beginning of creation, it was the will of God that billions of people were created with one telos in mind - suffering. If such eternal suffering is not the will of God, then He would have (again, in my feeble understanding) either refused to create mankind in the first place, knowing the fall would occur, or He, understanding each and every man/woman ever created, would have a plan for the redemption and restoration of each and every human being created. This one thought keeps me on the edges of Universalism, for I simply cannot see God willingly creating mankind unto destruction. But again, perhaps I am wrong here. If you feel I am, would you be so kind as to correct my thinking? Thank you.

@frandrewstephendamick 25 күн бұрын

@@IrishEddie317 You've been misled -- on many points, it seems. It's a house of cards that falls apart if one looks at the context of the many out-of-context quotes that the supporters of this heresy string together to distort the words of the Fathers, and even moreso at the context of the whole picture of the Church's history, even for just the first few centuries.

@IrishEddie317 25 күн бұрын

@@frandrewstephendamick Respecting again the amount of historical research you have done, do you have links or other source material which I can look at which refutes the things that mentioned that I have been told? Thank you in advance.

@JmsCaray-fx8qx 23 күн бұрын

This blog is such a mish-mash of contradictions , it certainly isn’t the teachings of the one true holy catholic and apostolic church…just the opinions of modern day philosophers, picking up where the Platonists and the followers of Aristotle, stoicism, the scholastics, Gregory palamas, etc left off…some information for today’s guest…sinners in the hands of an angry God led to the first “Great Awakening “ in America…I am still waiting for the first Great Awakening in Eastern Europe…oh, that’s right, those churches are extensions of their governments, both good and bad, unlike the churches in America, where their is free will…

@JmsCaray-fx8qx 21 күн бұрын

The Antiochian Church to which the guest belongs, is that the same Antiochian Church of ex-Metropolitan Joseph fame….if it is, then it is a church in need of great repentance …why would I take advice from any spokesman of that church for I am sure that ex-Metropolitan Joseph is a strong believer in the theology of universalism and that he left his mark on that church…

@IC-XC_NIKA Ай бұрын

This isn’t Orthodoxy- what are this priests qualifications?

@thegoldenthread Ай бұрын

Pastor of a parish in the Antiochian Archdiocese Master of Divinity degree from Westminster Theological Seminary Master of Arts from the University of Balamand Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Amridge University

@thelimatheou Ай бұрын

You're kidding, right?

@kathismatastic Ай бұрын

What has he said specifically that is wrong?

@aliciaturner9422 Ай бұрын

@thegoldenthread and currently writing his doctoral dissertation for his second PhD in philosophy.

@Ortho_Clips Ай бұрын

He isn’t you. Best qualification ever