The Commodore 65 - A Rare Prototype

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The 8-Bit Guy

The 8-Bit Guy

3 ай бұрын

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@IshiTheLastYihi
@IshiTheLastYihi 3 ай бұрын
Just to share some of the back-story on the c65-support vs MEGA65-support of the MEGA65 rom. Firstly, I was happy to see Bit Shifter's name on the rom chip 🙂 I take it as a good sign that c65 owners got some benefit from Bit Shifter's efforts 😄 I remember a time in the past, a few years back, when the MEGA65 discord community was discussing whether to focus on maintaining c65 support or focusing more on making use of the mega65's own capabilities. I think I remember Bit Shifter being very keen to make use of the mega65's hardware capabilities so that the rom could benefit from them, in both the saving of rom space (make the rom code smaller) and performance. (Up until that point, he had preserved a sense of c65-backward compatibility). He had held back from adding MEGA65-specific logic for quite a while, until things built up towards that discord conversation. I think by that point, at least batch1 of the MEGA65 was out in the wild, so it meant a larger community could benefit from those mega65-specific enhancements. On our discord, there were opinions moving in both directions, my gut feeling is that c65 owners would have preferred we keep assuring c65-compatibility, though many of the mega65 development team didn't own c65's, and a larger community of mega65 owners was taking shape, and so the decision was made to support the larger community that was growing. That being said, the mega65-project and Bit Shifter, did push forward the state of the c65 rom further, and that is still a good thing for c65 owners, as the label on Bo's rom chip shows. Could things be improved for c65-users? Potentially, though I feel like c65 owners would be the ones putting on their developer hats, cherry-picking parts of the latest rom they can benefit from, while omitting MEGA65-specific logic. Should MEGA65-developers of software consider c65 backwards compatibility? I guess it'll be up to each individual developer. I sense most will cater for the bigger MEGA65 audience. On the other hand, if a C65 developer wants to build a program and share it with the MEGA65 community, there's a good chance their work can be enjoyed by the MEGA65 community.
@bozimmerman
@bozimmerman 3 ай бұрын
The MEGA dev guys are all really great, and I'm so thankful for their help in getting a less-buggy rom. Also, yea, your analysis of the 'biggest audience' situation is right-on, though I would also add that to even have a Chance at making C65 compatible software, they would probably want to downgrade their rom to something more like mine, and who would want to do that?
@mikesilva3868
@mikesilva3868 3 ай бұрын
​@@bozimmermaninteresting 😊
@DasIllu
@DasIllu 3 ай бұрын
"BitShifter" I first misread the lable on that rom and it had me rolling on the floor 😀 "f" and "t" do kinda look similar...
@Walczyk
@Walczyk 3 ай бұрын
it would have to be a very niche forum lol
@NuntiusLegis
@NuntiusLegis 3 ай бұрын
When it comes to audience size or the pleasure of a fixed, well established and explored platform, the 65s will go on having a hard time against the 64.
@waynesmith6417
@waynesmith6417 3 ай бұрын
I have an even more rare prototype in my barn. I built prototypes for Commodore. Tom Hilltine was the head of R&D. I was given an NEC computer, like the TRS100, and a Commodore 64 and was told to take the display out and hook it up to the 64. The graphics of the 64 was about double the graphics of the display, so I put in a joy stick to move the window around so you could see the whole display. You could play games on it if you were fast at moving the joystick. They used it for a boardroom display and then gave it back to me.
@retr0mak161
@retr0mak161 3 ай бұрын
There are way more super rare commodore prototypes out there. Like the early prototype C64 board labeled "VIC-40", which was listed on ebay years ago, but "disappeared" afterwards and was never seen again. And also theres the only existing single sided PCB from Commodore, the C16 prototype board Bill Herd mentioned in his videos. As far as i know this piece is on display in a german museum.
@bozimmerman
@bozimmerman 3 ай бұрын
@@retr0mak161 Those are good picks for rare finds! I'd just add on the C= V364 computer, and my personal favorite, the DX-64, which is the rarest of all because it has never even been seen except for a grainy photo in a magazine. :)
@greenknight9000
@greenknight9000 2 ай бұрын
Woahhh! I'd love to see a video of em!
@charleslarson5983
@charleslarson5983 Ай бұрын
Prove it.
@waynesmith6417
@waynesmith6417 Ай бұрын
Are you talking to me? I still have the prototype in the barn.@@charleslarson5983
@addrakettp
@addrakettp 3 ай бұрын
$20,000 to $80,000! Wow. Very nice of Mr. Zimmermann to let you review it and show it to all of us that would never have the opportunity to see this machine
@RamsesTimeGame
@RamsesTimeGame 3 ай бұрын
Isn't that the guy that runs a Commodore computer website?
@RaysGamingChannel2003
@RaysGamingChannel2003 3 ай бұрын
@@RamsesTimeGameI think so
@TheStuffMade
@TheStuffMade 3 ай бұрын
@@RamsesTimeGame Yeah, he's got all the various Commodore schematics and other documentation on his website.
@MattyEngland
@MattyEngland 3 ай бұрын
Is Zimmerman a Jewish name?
@bjorne9478
@bjorne9478 3 ай бұрын
@@MattyEngland Could be, Zimmermann is just the german word (lastname) for Carpenter.
@zedfragg4134
@zedfragg4134 3 ай бұрын
"I did find this one demo that um... Did show off the 256 colour graphics capabilities, unforutnately it's a picture of a topless woman so...." Best sentence ever in a technical breakdown of an old computer. ...Also we know what teens in the know were doing with these things back in the day now! lol Love the videos, always look forward to the next!
@thejunkman
@thejunkman 3 ай бұрын
They were rubbing one out at 25fps
@oddgod8005
@oddgod8005 3 ай бұрын
The commadore 65 name just sounds like those kids that thought super mario 65 would come out
@sandrinowitschM
@sandrinowitschM 3 ай бұрын
Everyone knows 63 was peak Mario.
@dougiebell9944
@dougiebell9944 3 ай бұрын
8:56 8-Bit Guy’s wife walks in: “DAVID WHAT ARE YOU DOING?”
@jxchamb
@jxchamb 3 ай бұрын
Never thought there would be a day when I'd see a boobs on a Commodore.
@papeleradereciclaje4375
@papeleradereciclaje4375 3 ай бұрын
"""research"""
@elijahvincent985
@elijahvincent985 3 ай бұрын
You gotta admit: I admire his lack of enthusiasm with the topless image. I *HATE* when demosceners use clearly sexual images like that. Even in 2023, there's a lot of children who are interested in coding and pulling off incredible tricks on computers (look at the Raspberry Pi), but then you got sleazy people who put THAT on there, much to the disgust and anger of parents. It takes away the fun of the experience of checking out the incredible capabilities that are possible on the limited hardware. And for David to express mild disgust at the image shows How thoughtful he is to his audience, both the young and the old.
@robertsteel3563
@robertsteel3563 3 ай бұрын
I'm Very glad that you are able to borrow this prototype, Well Done! Also, Thank you Bo Zimmerman, for lending David the Prototype!
@stonecodfish2365
@stonecodfish2365 3 ай бұрын
I personally feel that Bo Zimmerman is a piece of human garbage. He should be sending each and every one of us his C65 so we can all play around with it, instead of him just hoarding all his toys for his own lonely, tear stained existence. (PS in case you're not.. uhm, "socially functional" this entire response is a joke. Please don't go Sonic on me with insults.)
@Psythik
@Psythik 3 ай бұрын
Who is "David the Prototype"? 🤔 (In other words, why did you capitalize "prototype"?)
@chocolatelightning
@chocolatelightning 3 ай бұрын
the message has been edited but now the "and" has not been capitiliesed also why do you care about grammer in a youtube comment??@@Psythik
@robertsteel3563
@robertsteel3563 3 ай бұрын
@@Psythik You embarrassed me, but I am fine with it cause I did make that mistake!
@another3997
@another3997 3 ай бұрын
​@@chocolatelightningPerhaps because grammar is integral and essential to any written or spoken language? Whilst people will often understand what is being said, a small error or change can make a vast difference to the meaning of a sentence. That is why we have rules and conventions in any language. That's also why such great efforts are made by educators to instill these rules in to pupils. Imagine if lawyers, doctors, engineers and such like were so imprecise.
@g4z-kb7ct
@g4z-kb7ct 3 ай бұрын
There IS an official C65 PSU and it's more common than you think. They obviously made lots of them in preparation for the C65 but when it was canned the PSU was re-purposed for the CD32. For anyone who owns a CD32 check the bottom of the PSU and you will see a sticker that says "PSU C65" ^_^
@bozimmerman
@bozimmerman 3 ай бұрын
You must not mean the dark grey brick PS I got with my CD32s. What did yours look like?
@g4z-kb7ct
@g4z-kb7ct 8 күн бұрын
@@bozimmerman Probably depends on your country. I'm in a PAL region. Mine is rectangular and about the same size as the C64C PSU but black and has the later Commodore stickers with the barcode saying it's a C65 PSU.
@azriell783
@azriell783 3 ай бұрын
I get such a big, dumb smile when I see a new video from The 8-Bit Guy in my subscription feed. Thanks, David, for making such an excellent channel. I can't wait to watch this one!
@Ty_TEC
@Ty_TEC 3 ай бұрын
The 1571-II was introduced in the German Forum64, and you can build them, as Commodore would have brought it on the market, it is based on the C128DCR 1571 with the MOS 5710 chipset, you can build a 1570-II, 1571-II or 1571-II+ depending on the equipment. I built one to fit the 1541-II case with PC drive Chinon F502, and it works great.
@Stoney3K
@Stoney3K 3 ай бұрын
What's the difference? The 1571-II supports double density floppies, or even high density?
@Ty_TEC
@Ty_TEC 3 ай бұрын
@@Stoney3K is based of the C128DCR 1571 chipset and a narrower case (from the 1541-II (case)) I use this as 2 Drive in one 1571 ROM and ROM from 1541-II. The ROM from the 1571-II is DOS 3.1 and supports only double density, a high density ROM not available
@crazykittenvideos855
@crazykittenvideos855 3 ай бұрын
This takes me back to happy days when between my friends and I we owned C64’s, a plus 4, C128, Amiga 500, Amiga 500+ & Amiga 600 a some stage or another. Great days!
@Marcel_Germann
@Marcel_Germann 3 ай бұрын
It even has a German labeling. Stating "Funkentstört", which translates as "fitted with noise supression". So it should not interfere with Radio or TV broadcasts or other devices that use radiocommunication. DBP is the Deutsche Bundespost, German Federal Post, which was responsible for such tests and certifications at that time. It was a public administration and privatised in 1995 and splitted into several companies like the Telekom, Deutsche Post and the Postbank.
@qwertykeyboard5901
@qwertykeyboard5901 3 ай бұрын
Ah, good old privatization! Gutting public institutions and ruining the lives of the proletariat since the nazis! No, seriously. The term "privatization" was coined in response to the shenanigans involving the nazi government (not the holocaust).
@SwedishEmpire1700
@SwedishEmpire1700 3 ай бұрын
Most C65's i know of where made in Germany, and the prototypes where sold in Europe from magazine ads after Commodore had died (i remember the ads even.)
@1337Shockwav3
@1337Shockwav3 3 ай бұрын
@@SwedishEmpire1700 Some people got their machines by dumpster diving. I guess that's how the VC40 prototype (barely documented early C64 concept) ended up in private posession before disappearing completely again.
@daemonspudguy
@daemonspudguy 2 ай бұрын
I love the German language. Funkentstört is just an amazing word.
@FoxWolfWorld
@FoxWolfWorld 3 ай бұрын
He was looking at a picture of a topless woman for “research purposes” and wasn’t even lying 😂
@weedmanwestvancouverbc9266
@weedmanwestvancouverbc9266 3 ай бұрын
Yep I used to read Playboy myself for the article. Yes indeed, the articles.
@retroandgaming
@retroandgaming 3 ай бұрын
Kudos for actually opening the unit up for us all to see! I would never have dared tinker with a machine this expensive :)
@webfreezy
@webfreezy 3 ай бұрын
Fun fact: back in I think 1994 I was on a trade fair here in Germany with my parents and they sold C65 prototypes for around 480 USD (adjusted to current value). I always think about that when seeing these are sold for more than 25k USD - of course I didn't get one then 😉
@Taisen_Des
@Taisen_Des 3 ай бұрын
Thank you, David. (And thanks to Bo). 👍 You've done a fine job documenting the history and innards of this legendary machine. Since there is not much information on the net.
@RoseWaltz
@RoseWaltz 3 ай бұрын
while not related to the video, i love your closed captions ironically you're one of the few youtubers i don't need captions for! these old computers are so neat, i love seeing how to worked with what they had
@RetroJack
@RetroJack 3 ай бұрын
Very interesting, Dave. I'd always been of the assumption that only pre-production mock-ups or fan projects with 3D printed cases existed - well done on finding this beauty!
@another3997
@another3997 3 ай бұрын
All of the C65 machines were rough prototypes. There was never a fully finalised, production ready design, so what you see is really just a possible taste of what might have been. A few tweaks and changes could have made the final product very different. The C65 was another of CBM's poor decisions, alongside the C16, Plus 4, the C64 "games system", the Amiga 600, CD32 and arguably even the C128.
@MrDuncl
@MrDuncl 3 ай бұрын
3D printing was unheard of in the 1990s. The injection moulds for that case would have been expensive so it is a shame they never got used.
@tomokig2655
@tomokig2655 3 ай бұрын
I see the similarities to the C128 but then this machine may have had the same issue like the C128 with the software library. Most developers would have stuck with the C64 since it had a much bigger base. In the end it never came out and the focus laid on the Amiga which was IMHO a good decision.
@grawman67
@grawman67 3 ай бұрын
Agreed. I imagine that while cool, most devs would have just focused on the 64. Amiga was a good direction for Commodore. Too bad they couldn't continue after 94 but at least we have amazing computers from them to still enjoy
@railsrust
@railsrust 3 ай бұрын
I wouldn't completely agree with that. I think a lot of the reason the C128 didn't get a lot of support is because it didn't really add much for developers to think of it as a different development platform. The C65 would have been a clear upgrade in terms of capability compared to the C128's lack thereof. It also didn't really come off as anything other than just a C64 with more ram and some weird video peripheral most people weren't going to use. People largely just saw it as a C64 with more ram. To shift the market into thinking it's something new, you just have to sell it as a new platform that *happens* to support the old software. Remember, the expectation was that the new computer would still support their old software. This is why the Amiga had a hard time taking off, it didn't have a software base to stand on, and thus had to start from scratch. This is also why the IBM PC/Compatibles had a huge leg up, they already had an established library of software that would still receive some amount of support going forward. The real problem for this machine is that it just came far too late with no enough additional capabilities to justify its existence. The SNES would likely have been far cheaper if all you wanted was a game machine, and it had comparable/better graphics with a much more sophisticated sound chip. Or if you wanted to game and do business, just get a PC.
@SixOThree
@SixOThree 3 ай бұрын
I am still convinced that if the cheapest base model Amigas had the expandability of an Apple II then it would have stood at least some fighting chance against the IBM PC. Without that expandability it was still "just a micro".
@MaxQ10001
@MaxQ10001 3 ай бұрын
You might be right about software support, but I'm not sure. Remember, the 128 mode was not much better than C64 mode. Just more RAM. The rest of the hardware was identical. When the A1200 came out, it was supported immediately. Because it was better. As programmers we are always looking for new stuff. Musicians would have loved the dual SID. And graphic designers would suddenly get more colors than on the Amiga. We do new stuff when it contributes to more fun. Using 128 mode was not contributing to more fun. Also, remember, the 128 was a more expensive big brother to the 64. The 65 would have replaced the 64, at the same price point.
@grawman67
@grawman67 3 ай бұрын
@@railsrust Excellent points here. I didn't consider these.
@LaatiMafia
@LaatiMafia 3 ай бұрын
Found this video randomly while searching for the Commodore playlist. It is 1 A.M.; aka a fine time to watch a new video!
@johnnylongfeather3086
@johnnylongfeather3086 3 ай бұрын
It’s unlisted
@LaatiMafia
@LaatiMafia 3 ай бұрын
I am fully aware of that, most likely a preview for the Patreons (Which I am not, unfortunately).
@Pyrolonn
@Pyrolonn 3 ай бұрын
I'm really impressed how thorough you are, also not intimidated by taking apart a $20 to $80,000 prototype.
@Okurka.
@Okurka. 3 ай бұрын
Only $20? That's cheap.
@glassvial
@glassvial 3 ай бұрын
At least he didn't smoke this one like those IBM prototypes.
@smart_azz104
@smart_azz104 3 ай бұрын
@@glassvialwas like one wasn’t it?
@Tetracera.
@Tetracera. 3 ай бұрын
@@glassvial oh right if i recall he tried the modern psu trick of using a paper clip to turn it on, but on older psu's there's 120v running through the switch..
@BulletProofBreast
@BulletProofBreast 3 ай бұрын
Taking a few screws out isn't a big deal. He's also taken hundreds of machines with similar plastic housing apart.
@toogoodtobeforgotten9892
@toogoodtobeforgotten9892 3 ай бұрын
Thanks for your review! To understand the thinking behind the C65 you have to know that Commodore chose a completely different approach: Instead of including a whole C64 in the computer like in the C128 and thus giving nearly 100% compatibility Commodore tried to establish the C64 as a platform instead. A platform which the C65 was built on. So the C65 was technically a computer based on the ideas and principles of the C64 (with VIC and SID although there a two SIDs and a newer VIC) and taken to the next level (and thus having Amiga-like features which was at the time a must). The C64 "mode" was not a built in C64 like in the C128 but a C64-like preset (like memory locations, CPU speed, resolution, etc.) on the C65. So when entering the C64-mode with "GO64" you get a C65 with a memory mapping of the C64. But you are still on a C65 with all its capabilities. You can access the additional colors, CPU speed, etc, within the C64 mode, if you want to. The C64 mode would have been more of a layer to easily port your existing software to the new computer and to enhance it there. Only the second goal was C64 compatibility (which was a primary goal on the C128). The MEGA team did a wonderful job of finishing the C65 and bringing this great idea into the next century. They corrected many mistakes Commodore made (like the C65 expansion port, which is not compatible to the C64, on the MEGA65 it is compatible) and adjusted some things to todays standards (like HDMI instead of RF - the purpose is the same: to connect the computer to a normal TV set and todays TV sets are on HDMI). Since the MEGA65 is FPGA-based you can run the MEGA as a 100% compabile C65 if you want to (just boot into a C65 core). However the MEGA65 (with a faster CPU, an even better VIC and 4 SIDs) is still fulfilling the promise of Commodore by making a computer which understands the C64 as the start of a platform which can be build upon. Actually a lot like todays PCs or yesterdays Apple II computers. It's a shame that they didn't do this back in 1985 instead of the C128.
@Damien.D
@Damien.D 3 ай бұрын
love all those bodge wires, including lifted pins of a chip. That's bodging at professional level.
@prodigiart
@prodigiart 3 ай бұрын
It’s funny how the mythology of the C65 compares to the reality of the prototypes. I guess a lot of people had a somewhat romanticized version of what the future of the immortal C64 would become. That’s the cool part of living in this time with so many options for DIYers to explore other possible 8-bit futures of their favourite 8bit computers.
@cheekibreeki7046
@cheekibreeki7046 3 ай бұрын
hi 8-bit guy! just passing to say that your videos keep a big smile in my face after a long technical course. love your videos from brazil!
@grawman67
@grawman67 3 ай бұрын
I'm really glad to see upload, David. I love the channel! The last few days have been difficult and your videos are always educational AND fun! I'm thinking about getting into the C64 and Amiga because of your videos. Hopefully I can find some at decent prices
@superviewer
@superviewer 3 ай бұрын
Once you consider the cost of a each of those two systems, and with either original acessories (storage medium, crt monitor, 9-pin joysticks) or modern add-ons (floppy emulator, video adapter and maybe one of the more advanced cartridges like the Ultimate II+) It gets quite expensive. The you might consider instead getting a MiSTer FPGA that runs both a C64 and an Amiga 1200 core + many more computers, consoles and arcade machines. The Ultimate64 from Gedion's logic would be my choice if all I wanted was the perfect C64, but they are out of stock now. Software emulators might also be right for you. The C64 'VICE' emulator is really great and the Amiga has a few, like 'Amiga Forever' and 'WinUAE'.
@grawman67
@grawman67 3 ай бұрын
​@@superviewerThank you for the suggestions! I think those would be a good way to go for now at least. If I truly love the systems, I can always look to buy one or both later. A MiSTer might be just the ticket. Thank you!
@darkreyule
@darkreyule 3 ай бұрын
That topless demo is making this more like 8-bit fans.
@Music-tg5is
@Music-tg5is 3 ай бұрын
I do like the design aesthetic of the Commodore computers, post-breadbin designs. Like the Commodore 64C and Amiga series. As an owner of both the C64C and Amiga A500 and A600, I clearly remember they were far less 'yellow' when they were newly released and have obviously all become more so with age.
@paulmichaelfreedman8334
@paulmichaelfreedman8334 3 ай бұрын
The bromium compounds in the plastic, there as flame retardant, slowly decompose, turning a brown color. There are plenty videos on retrobrighting, using hydrogen peroxide and UV light, to restore the original color..
@dankbonkripper2845
@dankbonkripper2845 Ай бұрын
​@@paulmichaelfreedman8334 a process which isnt full proof and requires repeating. And in the inbetween, its getting more yellow. you know what he meant.
@andresbravo2003
@andresbravo2003 3 ай бұрын
Holding a Commodore 65 can be a miracle.
@PanekPL
@PanekPL 3 ай бұрын
Good thing he didn't put a paperclip in it
@spavatch
@spavatch 3 ай бұрын
I'm so glad you've reviewed the original, I've been waiting for someone doing it for a long time. Great job! :)
@ironhead65
@ironhead65 3 ай бұрын
“There isn’t any demos!” David turn seriously to the camera, “but here is a port of Petscii Robots !”
@ironhead65
@ironhead65 3 ай бұрын
Oh no! I was making a joke and at 10:51 wow!!! You got me! Nice!!
@AB-Prince
@AB-Prince 3 ай бұрын
I find it odd that the 64C was for sale longer than the breadbin C64, and yet the majority of 64s being sold in the second hand market is the breadbin model. if it really is that sales tapered off that much during the 64C then it leaves me to wonder how it was profitable to continue to sell them.
@F40PH-2CAT
@F40PH-2CAT 3 ай бұрын
People who bought the 64C did not care for their machines in the same way that the older, more expensive units were.
@Games-bw5ee
@Games-bw5ee 3 ай бұрын
Interesting from a British perspective, I feel like the 64C was more popular in the UK than the breadbin model. So perhaps, there are just more USA resellers of the breadbin model, where it may have been more popular? I only ever saw one breadbin model in the UK amongst all my friends and family. Whereas the successor was far more ubiquitous.
@LeftoverBeefcake
@LeftoverBeefcake 3 ай бұрын
Keep in mind, the 64C is a "cost reduced" model, meaning there are way fewer chips than the breadbin, and the mainboard itself is smaller, and Commodore manufactured its own chips and improved its fabrication processes over time. So even with reduced sales they could still make a profit at this late in the game.
@stefanweilhartner4415
@stefanweilhartner4415 3 ай бұрын
@@LeftoverBeefcake cost reduced or crippled. the custom chip that replaced a few others is a bitch to repair. better to take all other chips and put them on a new old board and add a replacement PLA etc.
@DerekLippold
@DerekLippold 3 ай бұрын
I think many people immediately associate the breadbin model with the Commodore
@BenM39435
@BenM39435 3 ай бұрын
Always a super clean and very informative video😀. Thanks again David! I just played Ghosts 'n Goblins on my 64 with the 1084 RGB monitor. Regards from the Netherlands.
@adventureoflinkmk2
@adventureoflinkmk2 3 ай бұрын
Super clean.. other than that 256 colour demo lol
@BenM39435
@BenM39435 3 ай бұрын
​@@adventureoflinkmk2 :pppp
@bradrtorgersen_videos
@bradrtorgersen_videos 3 ай бұрын
Topless woman on C64 screen: THE GOLDEN AGE OF COMPUTING!! (I remember the two-color image of Playboy playmate Roberta Vasquez that circulated among C64 users, but you had to turn the screen on its side to see it correctly.)
@wonderdog8895
@wonderdog8895 3 ай бұрын
Never seen one of those 1565 disk drives before, its super cute!
@ashergreen3732
@ashergreen3732 3 ай бұрын
Perfect timing! World of Commodore show is happening this weekend in Mississauga Ontario! What are the odds inwoll get to see one of these in person?
@djcbanks
@djcbanks 3 ай бұрын
That was a mighty fine, 256 colors if I may say so myself. I can only imagine the three or four colors that were underneath the stars. 😮
@banenation
@banenation 3 ай бұрын
Incredible video! Thank you for showing off these pieces of history in such detail!
@Dgardei
@Dgardei 3 ай бұрын
I always think its cool when someone opens up a C65 and I can see my dad's name (BILL) on the motherboard. He's now retired, and calls me every once in a while when he has computer or networking questions.
@butters3063
@butters3063 3 ай бұрын
Loved this, I hope to see more videos about prototype systems in the future!
@IshiTheLastYihi
@IshiTheLastYihi 3 ай бұрын
Aah, I feel like the slowness of the graphics example was due to Commodore's choice of using bitplanes for the graphics modes used by BASIC's drawing routines. I guess they were aspiring to do graphics like the Amiga, but this added more load on the cpu. My gut feeling is, if you want to see the speed-win, avoid bitplanes, and stick with the old-school c64-bitmap-graphic modes instead. That path will have it's own challenges too, as the c65 rom's drawing routines are hard-coded to work with bitplanes only, so at the very least you'd have to write your own line-drawing routine in assembly and call it from basic. Perhaps with that sorted, you could then see the speed win the 3.5 MHz speed ought to provide :)
@arivaldarivald3212
@arivaldarivald3212 3 ай бұрын
Well, the C65 have a blitter, so the line drawing should be accelerated. My guess early ROM version didn't support that.
@IshiTheLastYihi
@IshiTheLastYihi 3 ай бұрын
@@arivaldarivald3212 It's definitely advantageous to have a blitter, though the C65's dma controller feels more like "almost a blitter" :-) I don't believe it had any special mechanism to assist with drawing lines or blitting onto blitplanes. If it did, then yeah, could take the win there. One other potential win could be the C65's DAT, think it was trying to translate x,y coords into an address in that c64 8x8 char block space. Maybe that might have assisted, though I don't think the rom makes any use of DAT either. I believe the C65 Zed Yago demo made use of it?
@Drmcclung
@Drmcclung 3 ай бұрын
I highly suspect this is why Commodore labeled the prototype ROM as "BitShitter"
@bruwin
@bruwin 3 ай бұрын
@@Drmcclung Bit Shifter is a person in the 65 community. That isn't a Commodore label.
@Drmcclung
@Drmcclung 3 ай бұрын
@@bruwin it's written either "shiffer" or "shitter" enlarged on my screen so.. I guess I'll take your word for it. So is that supposed to be a totally custom ROM or what?
@Brfff
@Brfff 3 ай бұрын
Thank you Sir. An excellent video (as usual) documenting this rare piece of hardware for posterity, and thanks to Bo as well. /Brett
@PeowPeowPeowLasers
@PeowPeowPeowLasers 3 күн бұрын
I'll never feel anything but lovely nostalgia and sadness for how Commodore are no longer with us. I spent so many happy hours on the PET 2001, the VIC-20, C64 and Amiga, playing wonderful games. They should still be here, competing with Apple or similar. It's such a shame :(
@sdlcman1
@sdlcman1 3 ай бұрын
I bought a Commodore 64 when they first came out. The price was a bit deceptive since you couldn't do much without purchasing all the periferals, so it wasn't really a bargain. People were saying what are they going to do with all that memory.
@fungo6631
@fungo6631 3 ай бұрын
7:38 This is why it would've been better to import a PAL market CRT TV, as all the better brands supported NTSC video at least in monochrome since at least the mid 90s, even if not advertised on the TV. And they also had SCART so RGB was supported out of the box.
@AndronicusKomnenos
@AndronicusKomnenos 3 ай бұрын
David, I paused watching the Larry Sanders Show (also from the 90s, like the C65) to watch this new video. Huge fan of your content. 😊
@jerrychandler7094
@jerrychandler7094 3 ай бұрын
Just about nothing makes me as happy as seeing a new 8 bit guy video appear on KZfaq. I swear to you - David could talk about anything from window cleaning products to playground equipment and I’d be hooked.
@Elwingish
@Elwingish 3 ай бұрын
You speak beautiful technobabble. I hardly understand a word, but it makes me feels smarter listening to it. So thank you.
@gideonruben187
@gideonruben187 3 ай бұрын
Thank you David for this new video, Quick question why are you sti uploading in 720p?
@KlodFather
@KlodFather 3 ай бұрын
@8:56 that picture looked pretty good. I'm not married so I don't have to worry about having my head caved in for seeing that LOL Good Job :)
@sw1tched
@sw1tched 3 ай бұрын
3:14 omg that was so satisfying they way you slowly slid it in to PERFECLY fit against the keyboard
@kajyakuzonik9130
@kajyakuzonik9130 2 ай бұрын
Thanks for the pinout for CGA vs C65 Analog RGB. I wish for more of thse in the future
@BillyNoMates1974
@BillyNoMates1974 3 ай бұрын
good video. Now I can see why The 8-Bit Guy hasnt covered the Amiga 500 as it wasnt that popular in the USA. Here in the UK, the Amiga 500 was very popular competing against the Atari 520 (and its versions). The Amiga 500 wa svery popular in Germany too. not so sure about France or Italy.
@busyjt
@busyjt 3 ай бұрын
I had the A500 and an Atari ST, at different times. Growing up in the UK it is a shock to me that the Amiga wasn’t popular in the USA. It’s my favorite computer of all time.
@hicknopunk
@hicknopunk 3 ай бұрын
My Amiga came from Kuwait 😅 The Mac store 2 hours away also had Amiga, that place was heaven.
@IcyTorment
@IcyTorment 3 ай бұрын
@@busyjt By the time the 500 came out, it was too little, too late. Cheap PC compatibles were beginning to spread like wildfire in the U.S.
@Webendowed
@Webendowed 3 ай бұрын
Am I the only one who clicks like before the video even starts? Dave does good informative videos and I've never seen an episode I didn't like.
@tomryner5830
@tomryner5830 3 ай бұрын
My dad worked at Sperry Univac just pre to the launch of the C64. I don’t know why that made us be able to try out and then buy a C64 in 1981 but… we did. The computer was Amazing for its day!
@tomryner5830
@tomryner5830 3 ай бұрын
And the colour was an ugly brown beige.
@user-tb5ns7hc5i
@user-tb5ns7hc5i 3 ай бұрын
Note to self. Buy rare cool things that people love today and hide them away for 35+ years. They will be worth a fortune in nostalgia.
@russwilliams4777
@russwilliams4777 3 ай бұрын
Shame they didn't go for four more generations, then we'd have got the C69 🤣
@prele
@prele 3 ай бұрын
Thanks for this video. I had no idea this existed since I'm not super deep into the scene, so it's very interesting to me. Great shirt btw
@martinlund4510
@martinlund4510 3 ай бұрын
Thank you for sharing this! I've read a lot about the C65 but never seen someone power one up. 🙂
@Monhamd1000
@Monhamd1000 3 ай бұрын
Kinda sad that C65 couldn't see the day of light.
@stylis666
@stylis666 2 ай бұрын
As much as I love and appreciate the videos you make, plenty of people commented on that, and I just want to say that I _love_ the music on your channel so much! Awesome tunes, awesome sound, awesome vibe, or should I say radical! :p
@snakefriesia6808
@snakefriesia6808 3 ай бұрын
thanks for sharing this video with us. this is really the first time i have seen a C65 .. and it worked !
@vcv6560
@vcv6560 3 ай бұрын
Very interesting. I've seen one of these at AmiWest 2017. Its a testament to the engineers at Commodore that clearly tried to keep products coming while the management....well you know 'The Rest of the Story'.
@stefanegger
@stefanegger 3 ай бұрын
YOUR BEST EPISODE yet on my fav computer
@swordblaster2596
@swordblaster2596 3 ай бұрын
Fascinating "what if" machine. Would have been far too late to the market, but something like this in the late 80s, rather than then a500 would have been interesting.
@Scalibq
@Scalibq 3 ай бұрын
The image would actually be 50 frames per second, as it is progressive scan. With interlaced you get 50 fields per second, where pairs of two fields (even scanlines and odd scanlines) make up a frame. So interlaced PAL would be 50 fields per second, and 25 frames per second. Most computers, including the C64, however, do not output an interlaced signal, so they output 50 frames per second, they have no concept of even/odd fields.
@McRocket
@McRocket 2 ай бұрын
I have never owned a C64 and I don't know a ton about this stuff. Yet I have been watching this channel for years. I find it interesting and entertaining. ☮
@MartinWolves
@MartinWolves 3 ай бұрын
I read about the C65 in the Commodore magazines at the time and I was so looking forward to it.
@Okurka.
@Okurka. 3 ай бұрын
Luckily this rare prototype didn't use security screws so David Murray didn't molest it using a Dremel.
@brandong.1857
@brandong.1857 3 ай бұрын
I'm so happy to see another history video from @The 8-Bit Guy!
@disgruntledtoons
@disgruntledtoons 3 ай бұрын
You do a very good job of illustrating just how incompetent Commodore's management was. R&D on a model that would compete with other models offered by the same company is madness. Once the Amiga was launched they should focused on ratcheting up the technology.
@gf2e
@gf2e 3 ай бұрын
Right, they made some very bizarre decisions. Competing with your existing models by being *better* and *replacing them*, especially with a path for *future upgrades* is great. But this? Going backwards with something that doesn't get your customers joining a new platform that you can keep upgrading? NOPE.
@KujaNiv100
@KujaNiv100 3 ай бұрын
The PAL signal output and the "english keyboard" displayed on screen make me think this C65 was somewhat planned for an european release (since the C64 sold well there, especially in the United Kingdom and Germany)
@KurtPedersen-tg7jc
@KurtPedersen-tg7jc 3 ай бұрын
Commodore ruled Scandinavia too
@jandjrandr
@jandjrandr Ай бұрын
Definitely the price of the C65 prototype is way beyond my price range. Maybe I could own one someday, but quite unlikely. Thanks for demoing it, too bad Commodore was a little too late to release this. If they had preempted the Amiga with this like you said and instead set the default drive to 9 or higher or made it possible to disable the internal drive, then it would have been more C64 compatible since an external drive could be set to drive 8 which a large portion of the C64 diskette software expects.
@gieselats
@gieselats 3 ай бұрын
Maybe Ultima wasn’t rum because of further more compability problems in the C64 mode. Its the same issue with the commodore 128 in C64 mode. Back in the days I returned my C128 back to the dealer. So many games and other software didn’t run . Not that bad to return to the good old C64. 1987 wow, that sounds history lessons. Keep up the good work.
@Quessir
@Quessir 3 ай бұрын
I had no idea the 1565 even existed, thanks for doing this video David.
@GunsGodGuts478
@GunsGodGuts478 3 ай бұрын
Nothing can beat that intro!
@adampoll4977
@adampoll4977 3 ай бұрын
Hahaha, the topless model demo pic is SUCH a snapshot of that time in the computer sphere 😁
@TheSulross
@TheSulross 3 ай бұрын
the burning question is which computer is the best envisionment of a post C64 successor? c128 c65 X16 Putting aside that the X16 doesn't have any strict compatibility with the C64 it does deliver a better speced 8-bit machine in most regards. The one thing that did catch my eye about the C65 was dual stero SiD chips.
@enduser8410
@enduser8410 3 ай бұрын
I'm just laughing at the bare minimum censorship for the nude lady demo. Never change 8 Bit Guy!
@EnjoySynthSounds
@EnjoySynthSounds 3 ай бұрын
Always delighted to see a new video David.
@Jimyjames73
@Jimyjames73 3 ай бұрын
Interesting - I had & still got an Amiga A500 - looks similar inside with the heat shield & the Ram expander compartment!!! 🙂🤔🚂🚂🚂
@RetroTechToys
@RetroTechToys 3 ай бұрын
Great video as always. I've always been curious about the C65!
@pangroszek3498
@pangroszek3498 3 ай бұрын
The basic ver 10 is IMHO worth own episode.
@MaxQ10001
@MaxQ10001 3 ай бұрын
In Europe it would have sold by truck loads in 1990. The C64 was still selling quite strong, at half price of the Amiga. The C65 was cheaper than the Amiga to produce. I think it would have become a huge hit, and probably I would have stayed on the 8 bit line instead of switching to the Amiga. If it had come out in 1987 or 88, even better, but that was not possible due to the limited resources Commodore had. 1990 would have been possible, because it was finally ready for production when it got cancelled.
@paul_boddie
@paul_boddie 2 ай бұрын
By the truck load when up against the consoles? I doubt it. Even the low-end Amiga machines were effectively sunk by the emergence of a new generation of consoles, and things like the Sega Master System were quite capable of competing against an enhanced C64 like this. And although people may insist that buyers were using the C64 and Amiga for other things, the gaming market was where the volume was.
@MaxQ10001
@MaxQ10001 2 ай бұрын
@@paul_boddie the technical capabilities of a system do not directly translate to sales numbers. When I say that the C64 was a big seller, together with the Amiga 500, in Scandinavia in 1990, it's not something I think. It's something I know because it was my youth, I lived there, I was active in the demo scene and I worked part time at a small computer store. We got the machines by the pallet. And yes, most people used them to play games. Free games. Pirating was huge. You could buy a NES or SNES and afford a few games, or buy a C64 or an Amiga, and have unlimited numbers. Also, new games kept coming to the C64 until 1991. If the C65 had replaced the C64 in 1990, at the same price point, it would have sold a lot.
@paul_boddie
@paul_boddie 2 ай бұрын
@@MaxQ10001 I don't disbelieve you that machines like the C64 sold well enough into the 1990s. I mean, Amstrad were also still selling various 8-bit models in probably healthy numbers at the start of the 1990s as well, including the tape-based ZX Spectrum +2. But I would have to ask what kind of pricing the C64 had to be able to sell by the pallet, as well as what software was being offered. Big retailers don't shift machines by appealing to piracy: Amstrad were able to keep on selling older models precisely because there was a glut of low-cost games, not because someone had some mates with a bunch of cracked games. And getting a presence at big retailers was crucial. It doesn't matter how many machines small stores shift if the competition is shifting orders of magnitude more units through the big retailers. There is also the matter of whether the C65 would have been able to launch at the right price point, which is as a budget machine priced to replace the already discounted C64. Commodore tried to appeal to the emerging console market with the C64GS at £99 which was a failure. Interestingly, in the UK, Amstrad released its own GX4000 console at the same time and at the same price, alongside other machines that were compatible and that might have broadened the market for enhanced titles alongside existing ones. That didn't work out either. The C65 (like Amstrads refreshed CPC models) would have avoided the usability issues of the C64GS, but it might have been a challenge to get the pricing low enough by including a disk drive. The budget-level ZX Spectrum +3 only got as cheap as around £200. Then there would have needed to be a commercial incentive to release software on disk, including new software taking advantage of the new features, as opposed to random "warez" peddlers copying other people's older games. Otherwise, they might as well have just kept on selling the C64. And I am very much aware that the low-end Amiga models did pretty well across the whole of western Europe, making people in Europe believe that they were somehow also very popular in the US. In practice, the European part of Commodore was probably shoring up the whole company in the end. But Commodore was stuggling to maintain volumes as the 1990s progressed and clearly trying to find a viable business strategy, hence all the different products they released that were not successful. And a substantial reason for that competitive hardship was the emergence of the likes of Sega who were making substantial inroads by 1990. Although you had to buy cartridges, there were probably healthy second-hand/pre-owned and rental markets already established in various countries. I guess we just see things differently, but I just don't see how Commodore would have been able to make the numbers add up.
@MaxQ10001
@MaxQ10001 2 ай бұрын
@@paul_boddie I have read that the chip cost of the C65 was about the same as the C64. It had a higher BOM due to the disk drive, but a C65 would have been cheaper than the C64 with a drive but a few quid more expensive than a C64 with datasette. The big problem for Commodore I guess was that the graphics could be better than on the Amiga. With the optimized 6502, using 40-50% less clock cycles, and running at a higher clock, and with the included blitter, and 512 color capacity, many games would have looked better on the C65. The 68000 spent many clock cycles on some operations. The whole company was so mismanaged, the C65 should have been out in 88, and the A1200 in 89-90. But I still believe the C65 in 90 would have extended the rope they used to end themselves with, at least with a few meters. The 64GS was a catastrophy. I think we sold 4-5, and returned the rest. On one of the cartridges we got in, one if the games required you to press a key on the keyboard to start the game. No one had even tried to play it on the GS before release. That is saying a lot on how much energy got into that project. Had the GS used the C65 chipset with more colors and a blitter, it would have been a good competition for Nintendo and Sega. The only thing the C64 had going for it at that time was price. Cheap computer, "free" games. But, yeah, games were still being made. Can't remember the titles, but we got in new titles on a regular basis in 89-90.
@paul_boddie
@paul_boddie 2 ай бұрын
@@MaxQ10001 I would hope that they might have been able to optimise not only the cost of the system with the disk drive but also the way the disk drive worked. Watching videos showing the classic Commodore drives loading software, and recalling complaints from back in the day, the disk solution for the C64 was an absolute joke compared to other systems. But I think that to give Commodore enough room below the Amiga, if launching such a product as late as 1990, it would have to be aiming for £150 at most. (Note that Amstrad's systems which were a bit more expensive came with monitors.) Maybe that price might have made it viable simply as a cost-optimised C64, which was probably well cost-optimised already, but whose disk drive had not been similarly cost-optimised and refined. That leads to the issue of whether it would have been worth enhancing the system or just pressing on with the C64. If the chipset enhancements could have been incorporated effectively for free, with no expectation that anyone would use them, then I suppose the C64 could have been retired in favour of the C65. However, Commodore really needed to be cultivating new opportunities, and this would have needed developers to be actively involved in releasing new, enhanced titles, growing this as a new platform. There was little prospect of that happening by then since the big developers had been shifting focus for quite some time already. And selling lots of units on the basis of old game availability was all very well, but it would never have produced the volumes that such low-margin products need to in order to boost the company's bottom line significantly. I found it interesting that Mr Murray talks about the Apple IIGS as a comparable product when it arrived much earlier, as he notes, and has a 16-bit CPU, not the 8-bit CPU of this model. Admittedly, the IIGS was expensive, as Apple products were, but I think that any such follow-up to the C64 needed to arrive quite a bit earlier, as you suggest. At that point, there might have been a bit more developer interest. It is also interesting that you note the 68000 needing more cycles for some of its instructions to complete, and Mr Murray appears to be under the impression that a fast 6502 is competitive with the Amiga. Amusingly, Amiga enthusiasts were prone to complain about such observations when made by users of other 6502-based platforms, and justifiably so. However, they also made much of the illegitimacy of instructions-per-second ratings, how the Amiga was unfairly portrayed against things like the ARM, and so on, when all along the ratings were using industry standard VAX-comparable performance measurements and had nothing to do with the actual instructions.
@BillTurner1968
@BillTurner1968 3 ай бұрын
😅Years ago, I worked for a video game company who used RGB video displays. The connector included Red, Green, Blue, Horizontal Sync, Vertical Sync, and Ground. The rolling screen looked much like a configuration we had to use with our displays. The major point I want to share is the H-Sync and V-Sync lines were connected thus creating a C-Sync (Composite Sync) signal. No idea if you still have the C65…but if you get another chance to play with it…you could give it a try.
@CraigRodmellMusic
@CraigRodmellMusic 3 ай бұрын
Thank you, David, for another interesting and informative episode.
@Spintechfilms
@Spintechfilms 3 ай бұрын
No Paperclips were harmed in the making of this video
@kyotodreams3306
@kyotodreams3306 3 ай бұрын
I was born in 1998. Most of the time, I have no idea what you’re talking about if it was made pre 2005 or so, but I love your videos and the way you present them.
@mamjacobs1983
@mamjacobs1983 3 күн бұрын
I had a commodore 64 when i was young, Always loved playing games on it. I had most games on Tape
@christopherfriend2224
@christopherfriend2224 3 ай бұрын
The 4510 is still an 8bit 65c02 compatible cpu with some enhancements to increase speed. It also includes an integrated MMU and two CIA's. It is not 16-bit.
@PaleozoicPCs
@PaleozoicPCs 3 ай бұрын
It seems like every source covering this thing just keeps parroting the "16 bit" line based on the assumption that a machine like this would have *had* to have been based on the 65816, ala the IIgs. Strictly speaking there are *traces* of 16 bit-ishness on this CPU compared to the plain 6502; unlike it the stack can be relocated anywhere in the 16 bit address space, and they added 16 bit relative jumps and 16 bit inc/dec/shift operations. But if this makes this CPU "16 bit" then we should also probably be calling the 8080 and Z80 16 bit CPUs.
@paul_boddie
@paul_boddie 2 ай бұрын
@@PaleozoicPCs Well, the introduction of the B register and the possibility of relocating what had been only "zero page", plus stack relocation and a global stack larger than a single page, only really allow the CPU to make use of a single 16-bit address space. As you note, that probably only brings it into line with other 8-bit CPUs. Contrast that with something like the Z8000 where individual segments each occupied a 16-bit address space, and we see the difference between what is still in practice an 8-bit CPU (the 65CE02) and a classic 16-bit CPU (the Z8000). All the arguments over the years about whether something is 16-bit or not tend to drag products into that category unjustifiably. In reality, the 16-bit category is pretty narrow and things like the 68000 are architecturally 32-bit, even if they have reduced addressing capabilities and data bus widths, largely for cost reasons.
@PaleozoicPCs
@PaleozoicPCs 2 ай бұрын
@@paul_boddie yeah… I mean, the “bit count” that gets assigned to a CPU can be pretty arbitrary and there’s a lot of gray area when it comes to making the call; it is data bus width, register layout, some combination of those things, whatever. If you go by register width you can make a pretty good case for even the Intel 8080 being *kinda* 16 bit; its accumulator is 8 bits but there are a subset of operations that let you use the HL register pair as a pseudo-accumulator, and it supports a fair number of 16 bit operations, etc. Intel called it “8-bit” because that’s what it’s data bus width was, its code is byte aligned instead of word aligned, etc… but there are “16 bit” CPUs (like the 8086) that tolerate byte alignment, and then of course with the 8088 you had the trend of CPUs that have an “architecture” wider than their physical bus, so that wasn’t considered definitive anymore… etc. So, sure, it’s not really an easy call unless you’re restricting yourself to truly “definitive” 16-bitters like the PDP-11, TMS9900, Z8000, and so on. But, really, as already pointed out, unless you go with address bus width there is basically no amount of wishful thinking that gets the 4510 into the “16 bit” category. The stack pointer is bigger, but the indexes and accumulator are all still 8-bit and its extremely limited set of 16 bit data operations are limited to memory words. It’s still way less “16 bit” than most other common “8-bit” cpus. Someone really needs to expunge this misconception from C65 lore. It definitely would have made sense to use a 65816 derivative, but that’s not what they did.
@gentoolive
@gentoolive 3 ай бұрын
Always enjoy your stuff, thank you.
@RalphBarbagallo
@RalphBarbagallo Ай бұрын
I remember when Commodore went bankrupt and they were selling these in the liquidation sale. I was too broke as a college student to buy one--I think they may have auctioned them or something? But they were only like $200 or so--but in 1995 my broke college budget didn't allow it.
@andrewferguson5653
@andrewferguson5653 3 ай бұрын
This is fascinating, and I grew up with Commodore computers. Had a C64, 64C, an Amiga 500 and Amiga 1200.
@randyriegel8553
@randyriegel8553 3 ай бұрын
I love the "Warranty Void" sticker stuff. That sticker means NOTHING if it's broken. Have attorney buddy that does consumer law. He said those stickers on anything are a scam. You are allowed to open up something you own. It comes down to the company proving you did something that harmed the system or whatnot. But I'm sure this C65 was out of warranty anyway :)
@eekee6034
@eekee6034 3 ай бұрын
I'm glad that's true now, but I'm not sure it was legally established in 1990. It's a difficult issue because proving you did something that harmed the system is very difficult, and it might be more difficult to explain the proof to the court. I think it's one of the reasons companies just let you bring stuff if you don't like it; maybe they've given up the fight.
@DamianReloaded
@DamianReloaded 3 ай бұрын
9:00 256 shades of nostalgia XD
@onedeadsaint
@onedeadsaint 3 ай бұрын
8:55 click here to this the most replayed part of the video! 😂
@jorgeseda3311
@jorgeseda3311 3 ай бұрын
Impossible for me to have a Commodore 65. But I have in my wish list both, the Mega 65 and the Commander X16, maybe 2024 is going to be the year.
@10p6
@10p6 3 ай бұрын
Nice. Maybe this project was started before Commodore bought Amiga. Personally I think in about 85/86 Commodore should have released a C4+, with 2Mhz CPU, a Vic Chip that could do 640x200 resolution and possibly a built in Floppy (would have added a lot to cost though back then.) It would have been like an Acorn BBC but with Sprites, Hardware scrolling.
@johnps1670
@johnps1670 2 ай бұрын
Developing a new 8 bit computer in the 90s is like building a two-stroke engine.
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