A social religion that produces such wholesome adults and children has much more good than bad…

@@annedodgson1530 you can get the same 'social and wholesome' families without religion. I've seen the damage the religion does, up close and personal, in scores of families, across multiple generations. That sweet countenance is programmed in with fear. There are far more gross NEGATIVES than POSITIVES in the LDS Church.

​@@annedodgson1530My three kids are wholesome and we don't have any kind of religion in our lives. Religion is not common where I live and the kids with kind parents are great.

​@@annedodgson1530 Also these kids are great because the parents are great. And the church excommunicated them!

I think culture in general minus religion is to much in many marriages especially if the people have been pushed into gender roles when they aren't the norm of those expectations.

I agree! These two kids have good supportive loving parents too.

Excommunicated from a cult, that's great!

@@apologiamixer do you put any thought into what you let out of your mouth or do you just spout nonsense all day?

Now that you say it, you're 100% right. His voice is great!!

He has the voice of an adult than a teenage boy. He has a better speaking voice than me and I am a mature Aussie man. I am always impressed by the decent intelligent youth in America.

THIS!!!!

Just like how it feels when you give up on going to the gym and losing weight.

@Brent Tanner the world is full or fantastic, decent, good people who don't go to church. Its not a prerequisite to being a decent human being. The implications in your sentence are so broad, but none good, so if you're a practicing Mormon, or Christian, then I have to conclude you're needing a bit of extra tuition in being non-judgemental and forgiving.

@@brenttanner9889 Your comparison doesn’t work. Going to the gym or losing weight doesn’t necessarily make you a better person on the inside. What a deeply flawed way of seeing your fellow human beings that you are taught to love and respect. That’s not a good look for you.

Children feel pressure in all things. It's human nature. We are all growing and repenting along the way. Everyone grows at their own pace and leaning on each other's testimony until we get our own. So I believe that the pressure comes when we start to compare ourselves with others. This is wrong. If we are going to compare we should compare ourselves with ourselves. Take notice of how much we have grown, what experiences we have gained along the way. As we depend on the Lord for what we are challenged with, He will make himself known to each one of us and therefore our testimonies grow from those experiences. Just imagine, when children are pressured at school, do you take them out of school or do you teach them how to deal with the pressure of growth? I hope that as parents, we can teach our children how to deal with the pressures of life. It's a process and I know that with Jesus all things are possible. God bless!

@@cirillojoe The Peer Pressure, is to acquire a 'Testimony', By Hook, Or By Crook!!!

So true. What kind of honest testimony can most children even have?

@@shawnstatzer3137 I definitely had a testimony at about 16 when I attended my future sister-in-law's baptism. The Holy Spirit bore witness to me of the importance of baptism in the Lord's Church.

@Anti Anti Mormon and what do you think of it?

Its the right thing to do because the brightest and best are treated like they are idiots and unworthy! Who needs to hang around that!

😂😂😂

LOL. :)

Mormonism allows for grandmson recruits

Bro that what I was thinking 🤣

Many videos are long, but something which helps me is increasing the playback speed. 1.25x, 1.5x, etc.

1.75x

I download them and listen while driving, at work, cooking, dog walking..

Ummm...before you make that stupid assumption.. study new england folk religion in the 1800's. and to answer that last part.um...lol...im really thinking about. you can say whatever you want buddy. it doesnt matter. obviously, you dont understand your bible..thats the reason why you made that stupid comment. or, hmmm, probably even better. it went over your head. of course, that would make sense for someone who didnt have the holy ghost.

@@cliftontaylor8392 It's Clifton. Making another snarky comment and being such a fine example of a Mormon. We need more Cliftons backing the Mormon church.

@@cliftontaylor8392 what could I possibly study about new england folk religion in the 1800's that would make me believe that the true and everlasting gospel, the reason the entire universe was created, was revealed to a teenager looking at a rock in a hat? I dont believe nonsense just because it came from the bible either. Good for you having your super cool and tough holy ghost looking out for you. Do you listen to yourself? LOL. Mormon arrogance is the worst.

Good observation. It's all part of the systems of control. It stokes egos. It establishes the chain of command. It establishes a sense of duty. I was taught that as a young man with "the priesthood" that I had more power than all the kings and presidents of the world. Very unhealthy.

It's not just the Church, it's rife throughout the US education system, too (Elementary Student body President, every single school club, ect). It's part of the democratic structure education that the country founded it's self on, but it's gone wildly askew since.

My testimony has only been increased and strengthened from reading outside sources.

@@brenttanner9889 That’s the curious thing though, isn’t it? Those more famous Tanners (cousins of yours, I presume) used only INSIDE sources to come to their conclusion that they’d been deceived by the Church. “Milk before meat.” Isn’t that the phrase when inconvenient facts meet naive, indoctrinated eyes? To my ears, it just sounds like a not-particularly-clever justification for institutional deception. By the Elder ______ has figured it out, he has an entire family’s expectations to uphold. It’s just a psychological game to keep the flock of sheep from hopping the fence.

Religion is what is wrong with the world! Lots of damage has been done in the name of religion. Wars. And psychological damage to these people, who are just trying to be human. Its tragic.

Thanks. I appreciate that perspective, but it's not what the church teaches, right? I'd also say that many paths don't lead to Jesus and those are also okay.

You shouldn't be LDS. Everything you just said is regular non culty no magic underwear or special seeing stones Protestant dogma.

Well, according to the church you're a horrible member. And are you seriously saying if your path doesn't lead to Jesus Christ then it's wrong? You're starting to see the problems with the LDS church, don't forget to look at the problems with Christianity in general.

I hope you make it all the way out. You are worthy and loved no matter what. ❤️

For sure, some paths lead away from Christ, my personal journey is just going towards him. I get it. Everyone has to honor their individual path. I have to stay for now. It’s a long road to show people the deception because it’s subtle and the lies are engrained into their brains. My family knows that I won’t be able to stay for much longer. I just can’t stomach the thought of my five year old singing “FOLLOW THE PROPHET!” Ugh. Find me one bloody scripture that says that!!!

i am interested in what you said about "Mormons keep secrets". I think mormons are better liars than any people on earth. I felt that all the time. I was getting a master class in lying. Lying to yourself. Lying to any one watching and judging you. Lying about how faithful and believing you are. MOrmons have too many secrets. Secrets and shame and deceit are so harmful. I left the church because I wanted to stop lying and live an honest authentic life. Not two lives like mormons live. Just one honest life

Uh huh

I agree

Perhaps I didn't explain this well enough in the interview and in the disciplinary council. The LDS church has a specific definition for apostasy. The only two aspects of that definition that could remotely apply to me are 1) weakening faith and 2) opposing the church. I wanted to respond to these charges in the disciplinary council, but the church leaders weren't really interested. Anyway, this is my super condensed response: 1. Faith cannot be at odds with the truth (Alma 32:21), so I cannot weaken faith by sharing truth. 2. I am only opposing the church if the truth is opposed to the church. I am no more opposed to the current church than the church of yesteryear is opposed to the current church. My experience was just another example of the LDS church objecting to somebody sharing the truth. This wasn't about blaming the church for my apostasy. It was about shining a light on the fact that the church is opposed to the truth. I just want the church to stop lying and stop harming people.

I truly think it's very difficult to understand unless you've been born/raised inside of the church. When you feel you have a good heart full of love for God or even human beings/family. It is beyond difficult to know that someone inside of the church in a "high ranking" position deems you unworthy to even enter a church building or even have a relationship with God....that is a very difficult indoctrination to overcome.

Absolutely agree! I hope my comment about religious trauma syndrome and a little part of my fun growing up with religion and an insane dad doesn’t fall into that category😬 But yeah, just read some other comments and wow. I am so glad to come across your comments. Thank you for keeping it real😊

I'm glad your cultural experience in the church was better than ours. The church culture was part of our story, but church culture isn't why we left the church. We left because the church is a fraud. Just wanted to be sure that was clear.

It's nice that things went so well for you but the same system that worked for you has destroyed countless people's lives. How can you defend an institution like that?

You're very disrespectful. You'll say things like "I know everyone has different opinions" and then go on to say why all opinions but yours are invalid. I think you're being blinded by faith.

A testimony is supposed to be your personal revelation of the gospel knowledge and relationship with God. But some people just fake having one because of social pressure and just parrot what they've been taught

Excellent observation. Mormonism, like other cults, does cultivate delusions of grandeur in its members.

Breeding ground for NUTS!

Hahaha. To be honest I’d rather be depressed about not living up to a moral code than have a world that doesn’t have one, even if that moral code(religion) is made up.

@@jarombennett8148 you don't need religion to have a moral code.....

@@jimmyshrimbe9361 your right, but where does moral code come from? Why do people who have never heard of god or the Ten Commandments, know that killing is bad? Even young kids know killing is wrong so why do you know that from birth?

@@jarombennett8148 we don't know it from birth. We have certain instincts and emotions about damaging other humans because we don't want to be damaged. We have empathy, a chemical process in our brains. And we learn from those around us. Morality has majorly shifted throughout history. You can't just imply "it's like that because a god did it" and expect your opinion to be taken seriously when we have science to back it up. Even if we didn't, you have no evidence real evidence of your claim.

No, re read that scripture

That is not what the Scriptures say. They say the opposite. “If it were possible, even the elect would be deceived.” In other word, god protects the elect from deception.

So seductive and evil 🤣🤣

@@ASMRyouVEGANyet God gave her those shoulders. We should thank her for sharing.

Free will is still there but 1st John ch1 verses 8-10 state 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us

I'm glad you missed some of the more harmful teachings of the church. Too bad you're gaslighting and victim-blaming.

It's so easy to blame others. I could say it's my history of being abused that caused my actions. I still have a choice, and I own my mistakes. I'm also still angry with people who treated my children badly and taught them incorrect doctrine. Because I'm human too. But I don't blame the gospel for the things people did. My opinion and beliefs are not hurting anyone. I love my family more than anyone knows. I also have a gay son. And I love him so much. You think I'm gaslighting .... I know what it's like to live with that. And your opinion of me doesn't matter. I know my life and the abuse I went through had nothing to do with the gospel. It had everything to do with the choices of a man. I won't blame God for man's actions.

@@silvertonette I’m not blaming anyone for anything that I’m responsible for. I’m *not* responsible for Joseph Smith’s lies (and all the lies that followed). Pointing out that the Mormon church is a harmful and fraudulent organization started by an adulterous con man is not blaming others. I couldn’t be more proud of the fact that I, despite having been heavily indoctrinated from infancy and having everything to lose, I still eventually managed to escape. Most don’t. And some who don’t then go out of their way to poo-poo those who do. Can an FLDS woman “blame” Warren Jeffs for harm she suffered at his hand? Or should she recognize that she “always had a choice” when she was pressured into a polygamous marriage at the age of 9? I guess she’s got to accept responsibility for that, since it’s after the LDS-approved “age of accountability”, right? Abusers and their supporters always blame their victims.

Julie, this statement church first is not correct. We are taught to put God first.

@@cirillojoe That's a Big Fat Lie: You are taught to "Follow the leaders--The Leaders Will Not Lead You Astray!!!

@@cirillojoe this is not true. We are taught to sacrifice everything for the kingdom of god. and the LDS church is the kingdom of god. Dont gaslight this poor lady

@@davidj.lebaron709 I agree @David. Who us first, God or man? When we covenantal to follow God in all things, then everything else is second. If anyone disagrees, then they in my opinion are not followers of God but man.

@@grantbeck9228 isn't that the covenant you made with God? Put him first? I believe that the church is His church. Also a religion that does not require the sacrifice in all things does never has power suffient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.

Well I will add that now the church reduced its callings. My Bishop said it's very unlikely my husband and I would have a calling any time soon because there arent enough. I can see as a church they are making more time for the family

I've been a lifelong member and lived all over the western states and a few places around the world and I have never been taught that the Church comes first in our lives.

You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

@@robertwojnar5166 Yep!!

As I typically use the term, "nuanced" means someone who has made up a proprietary flavor of Mormonism, i.e. they actively (often silently) claim to believe things that contradict official church teachings while simultaneously asserting that Mormonism is "true" or legitimate in some sense. For example, a "nuanced" member might recognize that the Book of Mormon is demonstrably 19th century fiction and also maintain that Joseph Smith was called of God.

Ohhh...not Jordan Peterson 🤨

@@toriebeck3424 maybe not in general...his view on Adam and the Fall though

Hahahahaha you called Jordan Peterson insightful hahahaha.

@@jimmyshrimbe9361 if you had listened to/read that particular part of his audio/book you'd have some claim to a valid opinion

@@krissee6961 and you're assuming I haven't because?

Many devout lds people feel honored to receive this calling.... some the opposite

Only people seaking power love being in leadership roles. For others it's a responsibility they think they cant shrink away from so they try to do it

We can pull out a quote or scripture to justify just about anything, huh? Here's one that supports what I feel is the overriding message taught by the church: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37). Also a video on the LDS church's website: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2013-10-1080-he-that-loveth-father-or-mother-more-than-me?lang=eng

@@sjpinson so does this mean you are against Christ? I can see how both comments here go together. Love the Lord first, obey Him, but He also commands us to love others as ourselves and have strong familias.

Thank you Amy!!

@@sjpinson That quote (Matt 10:37) is referring to the Savior, not the Church. I was always taught that the Lord should be first in our lives, our families 2nd, and the Church 3rd. I have a brother and several friends that have spouses that are either non members or who have fallen away from the Church and they have been supported by their Church leaders for the last couple of decades in making decisions regarding things like tithing and reception of Temple blessings etc that put their marriages and family unity first. I serve as a ward clerk currently and we have several families in this kind of circumstance and the two separate Bishoprics that I have been a part of as ward clerk do everything we can to support them with what works best for them in their relationship with Jesus Christ and their family members.

I am 68 years old. A Mormon for 57 years. I was ALWAYS taught that the church came first. The church says family first but they sure don't act like that is what they mean. Often they are very anti family.

Breaking free of the LDS church was not easy. Staying in would have been easy if it were true.

Lol! What did they sell? Their signs and tokens? 🤣🤣🤣 staying in is easier since generally we as humans and particularly Mormons, we don’t like confrontation and avoiding it IS easier! But if you know anyone willing to buy signs and tokens, by all means, I’ll “sell out”!

THE TRUTH IS, IS THAT MORMONISM IS AN INVENTED RELIGION. A man found “gold” tablets? REALLY! Moses’s tablets were of stone. So now we have gold. WHERE ARE THESE TABLETS AND WHY HAS NO ONE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM. Why….made up by a man who was a drunk, and he was having the delirium tremens from withdrawal and saw an angel. Not pink elephants but an angel. YEAH right.

too bad you werent

@@cliftontaylor8392 Wow. Like too bad Gil wasn't also excommunicated? Is it a feeling of Christian love that prompts you to make comments like that?

@@cliftontaylor8392 such a Mormon thing to say. And so Christ like.

What an ignorant self-righteous comment.

Grace Be, I can’t speak for John but I do think you are speaking too soon, these kids seem very well adjusted, eloquent composed, practically fighting over the microphone to share their opinions. My parents were not LDS and raised six children and seemed to enjoy being parents while both having successful careers. Your opinion is a very valid had my parents been LDS perhaps they would not have enjoyed parenthood because they were too busy with all of their church callings to be good loving parents. I do agree with the last two topics you mentioned and the reluctant episodes that occurred. BTW, a possible episode topic of: Being a good parent, Enjoying your children while keeping up with church callings and appearances do sounds like a good idea!

@@utahmassage Any LDS or ex LDS kid gets it. They totally understand the massive pressure to have children immediately upon marriage.

You absolutely spoke too soon. Watch all 7 parts please.

It was very very relevant to their personal experience she had to explain her true desires as a woman before being coerced into having children. It needed to be said about all the mind control and manipulation

Elsa Thomas.......Yes, I see that now. I watched all of the episodes. Very real, down to earth people. And yes, the church has its tentacles very deep into one’s psyche. We make decisions our entire lives....decisions we might not have ever made.......were it not for the church’s undue influence over our minds. It’s feels like an extremely heavy weight has been lifted, when one wakes up from the church’s manipulation of our lives. And depending on how late we wake up, it can be extremely painful to realize we gave up our entire lives to the church.....missed out on other opportunities, because of the church......didn’t move here or there, because of the church......didn’t take this job or that, because of the church......didn’t marry this person or that person, because of the church, etc. The younger one is when they ‘wake up’, it’s not so traumatic. But when you’ve given 40 to 60 years to the church, and THEN wake up......it can really warp your mind. Talked about pissed off. It takes time.....it’s a process to recover from......but it can be done......just a lot more painful.

Mormons are taught to interpret feelings as divine communication. Warm feelings, like how you might feel when you watch certain scenes in The Lion King, are to be interpreted as the Holy Ghost testifying of truth. Yucky feelings, like how you might feel when you find out that your child has died, are to be interpreted as the influence of Satan or a warning from the Holy Ghost.

@@sjpinson rlly? Wow, this was new to me! In psychiatry, this can lead to obsession and detaching from reality, getting lost in observing constantly emotions and developing borderline instead teaching to be grounded.

@@beckysam3913 Yep, it's unhealthy and dangerous.

@@sjpinson thanks for answering! I grew up in islamistic turkish cult in Germany. In the 70s and 80s turkish workers migrated to Europe. My father was radicalized with teachings of radical islamist in Germany. (I use in www not my real name bc i have to cover my ID to protect myself) the monotheistic destructive cults have similarities, like Scamtologists do hype Hubbard, my father loved the founder of the islamistic political party and cult leader Erbakan, (who is dead now). I was born into this org and grew up there, i was send with my sisters to the islamistic "school" camp in Turkey as a teen in the 80s, which was half illegal, just tolerated back in the 80s for being anti democratic. My parents brought us girls back to Germany and we had to protelyze for the institution party and mosque. I had to fight to go to public school, we were pretty much isolated even from the turkish communities and i grew up isolated, developed ocd with washing my body, i had other ocds too, bc in islam when one urinates, or has flatulence, disgesting, one gets "dirty" and all devil will come near you and will cause bad things that can lead to harm your family. Everything revolves around not attracting evil, even which hand and feet one uses first is important, micromanaging makes everything get bigger and bigger relating to hygiene and thoughts. 5 times per day and night praying , extra praying, extra reciting the quran or even old testaments to drive satan away. It makes one sleep depraved, cognitiv abilities suffer. I had the rare opportunity to go to nursing school with my islamistic attire, a rare chance really, after my graduation from vocal school, i fled and succeed. The islamistic cult in europe is engaged heavily in current turkish government and party from erdogan now. Before my escape and afterwards i looked for help but self help or help in institutions are hard to get esp 16 years ago. My health deterioated, I had three cardiac arrest, three near death experiences, which shocked me to find out things, basically one can read them for free in the internet ( in my cases: the impersonal , intelligent loving light is source of all living things, accepts everyone, your personal questions getting answered, incarnation is real, meeting dead siblings and other friends from other incarnations, redemption through reliving life and life review...I was volunteer for translating german and turkish ndes into english for some years). These changed me a lot more. I learned the English language to communicate world wide, to connect with ppl since i cant do that only in turkish communities. I red Steven Hassans books for self help. I researched a lot about world history, theology, how religions developed world wide from polytheism to monotheism, anthropolgy, ethnology, biochemistry, neurology... My health got better and I work part time as a nurse and go back to university to get degree in biology. There are a lot of destructive abusiv cults out there, glad you and your family got out.

@@beckysam3913 Thanks for sharing that! So glad you escaped as well!

It's part of the Churches teaching that's taught from each generation for spirit babies needing bodies, but I think it's to bolster memberships to stave off all the members leaving.

"go forth and multiply" was a commandment given to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and it is very much a tradition within Mormonism to follow this commandment. The church totally 'recommends' it, but I imagine the pressure to obey this commandment is greater in places like Utah and Idaho. I was raised in Eastern Canada and whilst there I do recall it being taught to the youth of the church, however I never ever felt pressured by my leaders or made to feel guilt by my peers for only having one child. I speak for myself when I say that I lived/live more as a liberal mormon and still live by the motto that it is not wisdom to "run faster than ye have strength" (book of mormon scripture reference).

They encourage you to have as many kids as you can financially handle..

So many people have been told to have as many as they can to give God's spirit children bodies , many just say" We are just leaving it to God" and don't use protection. It's not an requirement or a expectation. No one has asked me if we'll have more than our two. But the culture condones having many babies

@@angeewalz6034 Your statement implies non-mormons don't love their children as much because they don't have eight of them?

And the church handbook says that the decision to be a parent is between God and the couple. I'm not surprised they had issues due to financial stress and doing more than they could handle. Minus church culture it would be enough to make anyone pressured and stressed

Nope. While there were young bride's in Joseph Smith's day, it was NOT a common occurrence. When it did happen, there was generally a small age gap, not a 23 year age gap as was the case between Joseph Smith and Helen Mar Kimball: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Mar_Kimball. Lies, adultery, and spiritual manipulation are additional factors in play in Joseph Smith's case. Who cares what Edgar Allen Poe did? That's entirely irrelevant. Poe didn't claim to have the key to the world's salvation and exaltation, did he? Joseph Smith used his fraudulent claims of spiritual experiences to manipulate and exploit people, including a 14 year old girl.

Sam Pinson lol

Sam Pinson oh and yes, it was a common occurrence lol

Sam Pinson I probably know more about 19th century American New England folklore , religions and customs than you

Money and lies and generations of families effected?

Nope, these are people whose lives have been negatively affected by the LDS church and the Mormon religion because they don't care about hurting people as long as they seem like they're being "good Mormons"

Nope. The church is an obstacle to personal growth and development. Most of the rest of society was taking meaningful steps to combat racism while the church dug in its heels and taught racism as doctrine.

Sam Pinson how funny! Coming from someone like me and who I am, the church has been a WONDERFUL avenue of growth for me. It has gotten me through some of the toughest times of my life and will. I’m forever blessed to have the church in my life. Oh and by the way, this is coming from a BLACK, GAY Mormon.

@@cliftontaylor8392 I'm glad to hear that it's been a source of growth for you as an individual. Still, the anecdote of your personal experience does not negate the past growth-stunting doctrines of the church. My generalization stands.

Sam Pinson have a nice day Sam!

Murder is the killing of an innocent person. Laban was not innocent. Was Samuel from the Bible a murderer too?

Are you guys taking biblical fairy tales seriously 🤣🤣🤣

@@trevormartin3100 don't be ridiculous. Murder is killing. The victim doesn't have to qualify by innocence.

@@beckysam3913 no I'm talking about a character in a badly written book.

The church is a cult and a scam. No ifs about it.

Do LDS missionaries serve missions to make themselves feel better about their beliefs - or is that kind of accusation only applicable to apostates? Do you have any comments on the substance of the problems with the church's truth claims that led to our apostasy? I.e. the disavowal of past doctrines, rampant dishonesty in the church, non-historicity of the Book of Mormon, Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith's secretive and manipulative polygamy and polyandry, the LDS church's fantastically racist past, etc.

Joseph Smith Never Never never Ever ever ever CLAIMED to translate the kinderhook plates by revelation. Never!!! When you can find that reference then maybe that’s an issue lol

And Joseph Smith was never ever racist! He even had African Americans living in his house. And even if some of the leaders were, which they were, I give you that.... does that mean the doctrine is. IF ANYTHING, IF ANYTHING, the Book of Mormon is ALL INCLUSIVE

@@cliftontaylor8392 Your objection here is irrelevant and a strawman. The Kinderhook Plates episode is a clear example of Joseph Smith committing fraud. The same thing with the Book of Abraham. The same thing with the Book of Mormon. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/kinderhook-plates?lang=eng

Hahahahaha

So why did they change it in the temple ceremony?

This view is why Mormonism is closer to Gnosticism than Christianity.

So many people don't understand the temple is showing us how to identify Christ and that Eve gave up immortality for love not wanting to be cast out of the garden alone for understanding the plan but Adam placing blame on her making her the first scapegoat.

@@rabbithole2015 this bothers me too.

When someone who is being defrauded discovers what is happening, he/she generally withdraws from the situation. If he/she then warns others about the fraud, is that to make himself/herself feel good about discovering the fraud?

@@sjpinson same ole story same ole story....no one is being defrauded. these are "imagined offenses." you cant slice cheese so fine that it doesnt have two sides.

@@sjpinson Ive been there Sam. I know the story, ok? if anyone knows it, it is me! I am a black, gay member of the Church who was a sex, food and meth addict for 20 years and was disciplined for that in the church.i went through the church councils and almost had my membership taken from me. I was an apostate for many years because of bitterness I had for the Church and I left the Church and it was the most bitter years of my life. I was a living wreck. In the very gall of bitterness with Satan's grasp around me justifying my perversions with an absolute hatred for the church. It's so funny that those who leave the church cant leave it alone. Let me repeat that: Its so funny that those who leave the Church cannot leave it alone. You made sacred covenants with the Lord in the holy temple as well as the host and you deliberately turned your back on those covenants. I did the same and I have felt the bitterness of hell for it as you and your counterparts will.

@@cliftontaylor8392 I don't think you have ever been where I've been. If you had, you wouldn't be back in the church today. If you had, you would understand quite clearly why people "leave the church and can't leave it alone". For one thing, many people do leave the church and never give it another thought. Here's an article that provides some good insights into why people leave the church and "can't leave it alone": medium.com/@brynnetg/they-can-leave-the-church-but-they-cant-leave-the-church-alone-298cc12d399 My "covenants" were void from the beginning, because they were made on the basis of the church's fraud. It would be asinine for me to continue to feel bound to a promise made based on someone else's web of lies. That's an odd expectation. You're projecting: I don't feel any bitterness of hell.

@@sjpinson I so appreciate your words and so agree with them. I feel so sorry for people like Clifton Taylor. He has so much anger and does not seem like a happy person at all.