"I don't like characters who open you up by not hitting you" half of the cast of DNF has entered the chat

I generally call the Zappa/Arakune/Phoenix Wright type characters "Unlock" characters, coz their fighting style revolves around unlocking the win condition. A.B.A is similar but her powered-up form has more of a built-in drawback than Zappa's "I get to win now" mode.

Lord Knight likes predictability and consistency. Unpredictable situations and characters with hyper centralized win conditions are his anathema.

I actually like the idea they had with Faust as games went on allowing both players to interact with his items more (oil spill in Xrd to the kick-able bomb+trumpet in Strive). I genuinely think it makes it a more interesting and dynamic experience than normally fighting Faust. It allows BOTH players to be big brained and plan for fun interactions. With some tweaking to make his kit and items better and some more dynamic item ideas, I think he could turn into the only item character I'd like fighting against.

I’ve always referred to Zappa as a “Level Up” character since you have to grind out your resources and the power increase is usually so drastic it’s like jrpg leveling up lol Edit: I haven’t played a lot of BB but I always put susanoo in the category, don’t know much abt arakune

6:03 Lol at that name, LordKnigga 💀

As a Goldlewis enjoyer, I agree that chip damage as a win condition is pretty ridiculous. However, I think it stems from Goldlewis being a grappler without a command grab. He wins off of you doing the safe thing but most importantly off of you not knowing how to keep him out. And he does have a decent amount of mix. But yeah he wins off of you doing the safe thing which is really shit. It made more sense when he couldn't get karas since the situation wasn't as loopable without meter.

I’ve always called the Arakune type characters “Nightmare Mode” Characterd for 2 reasons. Because they have a mode that’s a nightmare to deal with, and because my first time dealing with it competitively was in Pokken with Darkrai, and his is legitimately called “nightmare mode” and it’s pretty BS. At least Darkrai does actually suck without it

@5:01 commentators must've had a field day with that name

I feel like everyone has their characters/archetypes they hate to fight against or play as, and that's fine. Reasons could be well-reasoned and thought out like yours, or just "nah fuck that shit", it's all valid. It doesn't get scrubby til you start blaming those characters and their players for your losses. You can hate match ups, dislike archetypes, all that shit, that's fine. It's a natural part of a competitive game, I think. Just always own your losses and don't cast blame on the thing you hate, or the people who enjoy it.

0:02 we frequently what ?!?

The Zappa/Arakune archetype is called Isekai Protag. They power up like in an anime to defeat the “demon” lord. There you still get the demon concept you mentioned 😂

Before I played Strive, I played +R just to get familiar with fighting games in general. Didnt learn much but I REALLY hated Faust. I dont think he had that many items out but the fact his moves were so fricking random just fuelled a fire within me. I was a Kliff main. Now I main Faust because, while I hated the +R and most likely the XRD version from obnoxious weirdly unsafe cross ups, I love item throwing and find his concept really appealing. Weird stuff all around.

It's interesting that you say you don't like non-interactive character designs but then several of your recent mains are pretty non-interactive if they get their ideal situations. Millia loops guessing situations back to back, Gotenks team looped ghost oki, Teen Gohan team looped snapback fuzzies... personally I agree about not liking non-interactive characters, but that means I also dislike all of the above.

You know LK, when you describe characters like arakune and zappa like that, it has me thinking that this archetype would fit in perfectly with strive’s current design idea for the dlc characters. They tend to hyper focus on one thing with these characters and the whole “usually weak but ridiculously strong when they get x condition” sounds like something that they would add in strive as a new character.

XRD autozoners : - Elphelt rifle stance starts on you, but it's a semi and not full auto (pun intended) - Axl's stance thingy that was fairly exploitable does give me the same feeling you described : Spacing doesn't matter, I'm sorta forced to interact with the move itself and suddenly it feels like we're playing a mini-game rather than whatever was happening before I call the chip heavy characters the "Checkmate" archetype. It's a clean & easy word and also kind of extends to other win conditions that feel just as similar. I'd argue Naoto from P4A kinda falls into that category with her instant kill gimmick. So while she isn't a checkmate character at it's core, she has that trait. Venom has shades of it.

As someone who has mained/secondaried a lot of of the characters mentioned, I feel personally attacked lol Ironically, the problematic element is never actually the reason I play the character (except Teddie kind of). I play Faust because his normals are basically the range I want to play most fighting games (same goes for Amane), while I play Goldlewis and Arakune purely because I really like the character design.

I miss playing Platinum in BB because of the RNG factor. Her items were more honest than the other 2 character examples but getting the missiles, bombs, and halo suddenly won you neutral. The pan and the hammer were godly mix-up tools (one had nasty cross ups and HAMMA FALL, the other was an instant overhead). Her only weird item was the jack-in-the-box but the opponent could deactivate it with dash + barrier stop.

As a an average Faust AND Millia enjoyer, I just wanna say that if I have to concede that faust items plays neutral for me, then Millia knockdown into disc automixes for me. In games like Marvel 2 and 3, you have to manually time your incoming mix relative to the time of the opponent coming in, which is a whole other set of variables you have to factor in. Millia HS disc mix gives you the timing on a silver platter, and choosing left or right is zero effort. And I'm not attacking LK here btw, I'm just sharing my experience. I love both characters, and I don't think that auto neutral = auto win. Just like I don't belive auto mix = win. Cause once Millia hits you it's not even that hard. And once Faust got in after skipping neutral, he doesn't even have much to do.

Darkrai from Pokken Tournament is an example of a "demon" character that I haven't heard many people complain about. I'm not an expert on the game but what it does is that if he hits you with a specific move, Dark Void, he enters Nightmare mode which enhances his moves and gives him 2 new ones. Here's how he's balanced: - Pokken gameplay has you shift between a close-range Duel Phase and a long-range, zoney Arena Phase. Darkrai can only really use the move to enter Duel Phase, so this super mode enhanced his offense, not zoning. Yes, it means he can put the hurt on you but also you can counterattack him easier than if his zoning was made crazy. - Darkrai doesn't fundamentally change when in this form. He has new tools but they're an add-on to his existing ones. Not a whole new moveset like Zappa's Raoh moves - It's up to the player to make the best use of these buffs. Unlike Arakune whose curse just automatically puts the enemy on the backend of pain, here the Darkrai player has to know what his advantages are now. - The enemy can end this mode by hitting Darkrai enough to shift the phase out again. - of couse, Darkrai on his own is below-average at most things and has poor frame data on his moves. His trap projectiles and weird mechanics are meant to help him set things up so that he can land his one Dark Void move which is otherwise a very predictable attack.

7:00 God, for some reason I love that explanation, way to go LK.

on the edge of my seat waiting for the Arakune video

I was thinking about that type that doesn't have a name. "Install win condition" perhaps? Like, it's not quite a Dragon Install situation but you do get extremely high return from powering up. Would Junpei, Labris, and A.B.A. Fall into this? Edit: I thought up a different name for this, stolen from Pokemon as they have the same concept: Setup Sweeper.

Damn you have been releasing banger video after banger video recently congrats

Kinda surprised that LK didn't mention Old Testament. They are like the Arakune on steroid except they are the neutral god, can curse you whenever they wanted and Oki god as well.

Every video this week hittin' different in the analytical department.

"I call it just demon" got me ngl. But yeah I agree with stuff doing neutral for you and having to respect it too. overall i'm fine with Mu's kit in general, but man her drive can be tedious to deal ESPECIALLY her laser that doesn't go away on it, that's meterless. I got hit out of a super that through the first laser and I got stuck in hitstop after I hit the mu resulting in me getting hit and losing the match. i'm still tilted to this day lol

What's the key distinction between an item and a game/character where you can't parry/counter projectiles, where they throw a projectile and you're forced to either block it or avoid it? Aside from status effect stuff (which some projectiles can also have i.e. raven) isn't an item a glorified projectile? And depending on the game/system mechanics you might just be forced to block or avoid it no differently than projectiles in general? Projectiles are pretty common in fgs. I'm guessing it's the idea that items in general occupy screen space longer after recovering from using the move. i.e. you get to pressure behind or around it.

Do you think that super dash in DBFZ has the same problem as "auto zoning"? also do you think that DNF's guard crush has the same problem as chip damage characters?

It's really nice to see what you're calling out and why here. So I will provide a quick list on what you are calling out: 1) Item caddies, for RNG element shenanigans 2) Demons, for wall-to-win 3) Auto-kiters, for long range abuses 4) Effective 1HKOs off of easy hits 1 can be balanced by, as you pointed out, making the item play fair for BOTH sides. While it should be an advantage overall for the item caddie, we do want ways to combat the items overall. 2 is significantly more tricky, simply by inviting character bias. Balance would really want to understand the demons' gameplay to give the most susceptible matchups tools to either break the involved wall, or simply survive. Careful if the involved gameplay is actually good, though, because the demons definitely should have their consistent threat in that case. 3 definitely needs to be called out and is the biggest plague against the Mighty Glacier/Melee Tornado hybrid. Even if the latter isn't suffocated by Unconditional Flinching, they still are going to have difficulty getting close to land that devastating blow. Any active kiting methods, in that case, would need checks and balances, preferably ones that encourage intel warfare. 4 needs VERY justifying context, of course. Now I can actually talk about 2 because Kid Icarus Uprising has a case of that in a Power that actually disrupts 3, and it's a Power that I have put on as a staple for Skyscraper Club. The Power in question that works as a Demon setup is Black Hole, which sets up a Black Hole beacon to vacuum opponents toward it where they can be easily hit by something like close range burst damage. Technically, it actually can be used at the start of a match, just that there's 2 charges available total (actually barring later Power regen), and also at the beginning of a match, you're not going to know what Powers the other guy has equipped. This brings up how there are 3 ways to beat the Black Hole charge directly when it's intended for dealing direct damage (note that it could be used for purposes such as clipping off Energy Charge): 1) *Hit the BH user to knock them flying and such.* This is brought up first for being doable by ANY setup as a surprise counter when it is doable in the first place without the higher power tier debuffs, but the BH user could be using an Armor Power such as Super Armor or Counter to stop the flinching from happening at all, and when that's the case and they're not mangling the execution, this idea becomes lethal damage or bust. 2) *Knockback immunity, which doubles as vacuum immunity.* This can be from move-provided invincibility or simply Armor Power usage. Note that Powers are needed to manage invincibility/knockback immunity that lasts long enough to pull the escape. (Unless you're using Evasion+, the most broken weapon modifier in KIU and there's a lot of imbalances with weapon modifiers to begin with.) This relies on the Power setup itself, but there are plenty of options for this method. 3) *Combat the attack itself.* Which attack gets involved is bound to involve the weapon type, particularly with how strategically committal Black Hole is, though mixup may be done, especially if the weapon type has multiple options that would be good enough--Skyscraper Club manages this, although still clearly favoring the Forward Shot over the Melee Dash Attack for damage. Melee attacks would be consistently dodgeable even with the rooting, although you'd be dealing with a probably exhausting endeavor because of successful distance closure anyway. Range attacks can all too easily be undodgeable without the mobility that Black Hole would have momentarily removed from play. Some weapons can manage enough Shot Cancel to defeat the attack instantly (Skyscraper Club's Forward Shot has 5 Shot Cancel for reference--don't ask me why it isn't 6 instead, but 5 is still fairly high), but for the majority of weapon types, since they won't get to manage this, there are Powers that can be used for this purpose, namely Reflect Barrier (you can guess why) and Meteor Shower (the Meteors have transcendent Shot Cancel), and arguably Pisces Heal as well for its auto-revival effect, though that is of course expensive. Just be aware that these Powers will have their blind spots, so setup versatility and flow are both going to be important. You can see how Black Hole can be used to shift meta to information warfare within the fast-paced combat, simply by busting up setups that try to kill fast and "safely" simultaneously, while still having reliability because its user can outmaneuver the countering Powers. Now you might think that the obvious counter would be to simply keep Powers in consistent reserve to make their usage reactionary. This might have been able to happen if Black Hole costed at least 10 spaces on the Power Grid, but 6 spaces instead of that definitely allows for better mixing in Counter, which is basically a risk-reward alternative to Super Armor that even pulls cost-effectiveness on the majority of singular Buff Powers, with the added convenience that it is synergistic with weapons like Skyscraper Club, guaranteeing a push with good usage. So yes, Black Hole, while inevitably a staple Power, is still inexpensive enough in that regard to be accommodated with ways to bust attempts to completely delay the win condition. I think we have a Demon that gets balanced well. I may as well see what you think anyway.

KI DONT GOT ANY OF THESE KI STAY WINNIN

That's a pretty goaded Blazblue tag

I love Faust. It's an excellent example how randomness can add skill. It's difficult to master how to react and adapt to the item randomness. It's awesome. (I also love Lum in Fantasy Strike but that's a tiny indie fighter.)

Would frank west and phoenix wright from umvc3 go in the second category?

Lord Knigga!!!!!!!?

that blazblue tag on your litchi had me double taking and checking my eyes jfc

+r Baiken with free guard cancels is hard to beat. Gold Warmachine is also a character i hate so much. Basically any character who's mechanics make you change how you play entirely

would you say there's a difference between negating neutral and skipping neutral? or would you say they're the same thing?

I'm surprised you didn't have "Summoner" type characters. Not Gargos or Xrd Jack-O type summoners, but characters like Dizzy, Rise, Dragon Knight, etc. who toss out a tool that covers a ton of space (fish/laser/dragon) and then runs in behind it. Basically the aggressive half of the auto-zoner, though Mu-12 can definitely be both. Though other characters definitely have shades of it. I-no and Goldlewis both do this without meter in Strive, though neither are as effective at retreating to gain space for their "summon" (Note/Drone) as the previous examples.

Does Hakan from SF4 fall under the Zappa archetype? I know people liked him and he wasn't/isn't broken if I remember

I've always called characters that you classify as demons install characters. Pokken Tournament, a game I dearly wish popped off as it should've, has a perfect example of this kind of character. Pokken Tournament is a very unique game where you shift between an arena fighter and 2d fighter. In ''Field Phase'' (arena fighter) your main goal is to hit projectiles which confirm into small combos and transform the match into ''Duel Phase'' (2d fighter). Each character has their own projectiles in Field Phase, along with an entirely different moveset. The character that is a good example of install characters would be Darkrai. During Field Phase, he has the basic gameplan of hitting projectiles, but in a slower way that other characters. If he hits these, he can confirm into a small combo and end with his signature move, Dark Void. Hitting this move brings the field to Duel Phase, and puts you into his special state: Bad Dream Rising. Before he activates this state, his Duel Phase normals set up these rifts that can be activated through the use of a special, Nasty Plot. (it's also a counter) Each rift has it's own direction it explodes into. During Bad Dreams Rising he gains new specials and the rifts explode immediately. This allows him better conversions, higher damage and more neutral options. He is very strong in Bad Dreams Rising, but has little to no options to gain Bad Dreams Rising in Duel Phase. However, he can still gain it, if he gets a good read or punish. I think what makes him so interesting is that in Field Phase, his goals are so similar to everyone else in the cast but those same goals get you your win condition. He dosent have to go for any unique approach options, he just does what everyone else does. Because of this, you hardly need to do any research or labbing and can adapt to him pretty easily.

You should have kept lordknigga as your name

Funny enough, I love 2-step-neutral characters, but I have never liked item throwers. It's usually projectiles and puppets, like Mu-12, Venom, Dizzy and Strive Zato.

How is Strive Faust throwing either meteors or mini faust and instantly creating a huge snowball where he gets to pull more items over and over until he bricks 2+ times in a row more interactive than old Faust? Just because you can hit the bomb or get the trumpet? If you think old Faust bastardizes neutral, how does Strive Faust sitting fullscreen until he pulls meteors to do an unblockable crossup interactive? At least all of his items in Xrd but meteor and mini faust are self contained and don't let him throw more items so interactions are in a vacuum and good and bad RNG situations are less stark in snowball potential.

I hear a lot of people who played pre-strive Faust say they didn't like his teleporting door, or the scalpel standing, or any of his other abilities that actually required inputs.. but when I used to play him I didn't like the items... Why risk throwing an item that might not do what I want it to... When I can open a door to a different dimension, or annoy people with my scalpel shenanigans... But also I fought (nerfed) teddy and he annoys me so.. I don't like item throw from either side, the player or the opponent

This video is really interesting to me, mostly because I feel very differently on a lot of points here (fuck item toss characters tho lmao). I personally don't really mind wacky chars with stupid wincons like chip damage or an unlock state as most of them do have defined weaknesses and things to exploit heavily prior to the "lol you're memed" point of the round. Like once I'm in the position it feels bad to be there but there's always the thought of "damn I put myself here didn't I." The chars that usually annoy me the most are the opposite lol. Really solid stable characters with no real drawbacks, even if they don't have any extremely dominant strengths are the bane of my existence. Especially if they're absolutely dripless like mai or es or something.

The archetype i hate the most: you hit them and thier projectile hits you back, bailing them out of your punish. In some cases it may even combo you/ lock you down letting the person you hit get in for free. Ill never understand why Arcsys allows characters to have autonomous projectiles with next to no real cost.

Tbh I agree on all the achetypes you mentioned. I'd also like to mention a "non-archetype": Characters with unblockable setups, and even worse when those can be looped.

I feel like a good name of this archetype is the "gambler", as they rely on rng to give them the advantage.

So would Captain Ginyu in DBFZ considered an "Item Throw" character?

Interesting I feel Arakune is an item throw character but there is just one level of abstraction, he must curse you before he can flood the screen with objects. I think it's a clever spin on an already exisiting archetype, much like other characters in the BB universe. He is weak yes, but has some strengths and landing curse isn't as difficult as collecting evidence or unlocking zappas unchained form. I think characters like Zappa or Dark phenoix fall more into a "glass cannon" archetype with a specfic win condition to activate their cannon. Keep killing the content as always, love your perspective on this kinda of stuff.

"I'm just really not partial to Characters type that beat you from not interacting in an extreme way" I mean safe setups also make you feel like you're interacting but no they meme you. Millia H disk knockdown setup is a demon character because, she can cross you up or feint then block If you challenge it with 5p the disc stays and she still gets the combo and another knockdown aka another repeat H disk. If you dont challenge it she gets to keep her pressure. she crosses you up or feint but presses button If you challenge it 5p or 6p her rose special can counter both If you dont then its 50/50 if she hits you high on air or low after fast landing The possibility of you not able to block the 1st cross up or feint also is high and it results in a combo and repeat of the situation. Safe setup lets you beat your opponent without interacting in an extreme way.

I call the Zappa/Arakune type “the bastards”

9:30 me who mains both goldlewis and Amane >:O I just think pressure is the most fun thing, in my perfect game the opponent never gets opened up.

Was gonna say, "how did LK not mention Mu-12", then I got to the end of the video 😂

The reason I main Happy Chaos and C-Roa is because I don't want to play neutral and I don't have to, I want to be a degenerate who has the tools to control the screen and immediately set my win condition with a single move It might be scrubby, but it sure feels good When I first saw HC, I said: "Shiiiit look at that the hitbox just appears on the reticle there's no actual projectile, bet, he's my main" Also these characters can choose to mixup or rush you down if you want since their close range offense is also pretty ridiculous They're pretty flexible in whatever you want them to do and it's fun to get creative

"Throws an item. Just SEES what's going on." Subtle Persona 3 reference, I love it

Did you enter that tourney as LordKnigga or was someone being cute?

LK you would love UMvC3 Morrigan! Remember her auto zoning + Chipp Damage? Oh and a safe dp.

LordKnigga

Man you would probably hate me IRL, I only play Faust/Jack-o/GL in Strive and Arakune in BB

Now that you made this video, I got 10$ on Faust's lost spirit possessing Zappa for a truly cursed DLC character.

Can someone explain why LK hates Elphelt in Xrd, while Johnny is undisputed top1, broken and in tier of his own, but still not hated?

I came in expecting grappler hate and there was a perplexing lack of it. I assume Potemkin gave LK a gentle, Zeppian hug.

I like asymmetrical win conditions, and that's why chip damage is interesting to me as Goldlewis's gimmick and why items are interesting to me as Faust's gimmick. Magic: The Gathering has strategies built around making your opponent draw too many cards rather than just depleting their life, and that's more interesting than if everything came down to attacking the person's life total.

The thing about characters killing you without hitting you reminded me of MK11 chip damage which I hated because not only are projectiles really strong in that game, they also did a lot more chip damage and on top of that, they can just meter burn to either throw a second projectile and/or make themselves +. Oh and meter is free as well, it just charges on its own without requiring the player to do anything and even replenishes between rounds

Does A.B.A fall into the Demon category or no? She is weak and needs a condition to be met to be really strong but she does not overwhelm you like Zappa or Arakune?

The only good chip damage character is amane from bb, because his drills are really satisfying

I am an Amane main, and I see your points. But I'll play him still

With Strive specifically, I find Goldlewis less egregious since while he has nightmarish offence and makes even blocking scary, he still has some really potent weaknesses to balance it out. His defence is awful, his movement is subpar, and while he has some really solid normals, they're usually pretty niche and/or pretty slow, so he at least has to work to get himself in and usually make at least a couple correct reads to get to do his shit. Happy Chaos just has near-uncontestable autozoning that he can get set up at almost any point, while also having fantastic normals and closerange ability. It feels like Happy Chaos being in advantage and doing what he wants to do is just the default state with him on the screen.

I would call the "demon" characters power-up characters probably

Extremely surprised you didn't say anything about ArcSys ninja characters.

The unlock characters seem to get a lot of hate, another good example would be joker in smash ultimate. He’s fun as hell to play because even without arsene he can still do cool shit then when he gets arsene all his moves kill

This ages like fine wine for HC being scrubby. the auto zoning was 90% of evo finals.

I think Zappa an Ar*kune fall under the category of a "Level Up" character. Other examples are UMvC3 Phoenix Wright, SF5 G, Watson in Battle Fantasia, uhhh... Sleepy Nayuki in EFZ? Xrd Jack O` kinda???? It's pretty rare all around, and Zappa I wouldn't even fully consider a level up character anymore because Raoh's not even the best summon, lol. I think it's a really hard archetype to pull off. Because devs emphasize that max level is auto-winningly strong, what happens is either A) The level up condition is too easy and the character is mega top tier because you can't stop them (BBCT Ar*kune) or more frequently B) Levelling up is so hard that they're stuck as a bottom tier character the whole round. (BBCS Ar*kune, Phoenix Wright, Nayuki). I think Capcom actually has it perfect with SF5 G in his current iteration: Level 1 G is not a great character, but not helpless either. Level 3 G is a strong character, but he doesn't win outright. When he's down, he can still access his wincon for a short time with V-Trigger, and when he's up the opponent can still level him down with things like V-Reversal or V-Break.

Does the femboy is bb fall under the beat you without hitting you category

im not good at fighting games so dont treat me like i have any say in this, but what if there was an autozoner that made it so that once locked on, he could do a bunch of different attacks from different angles, letting you dodge instead of just blocking, increasing interactivity.

Nice vid : )

I think I understand. You dont like characters who's offense is a single player game and the way they lose is when they let another person play. Its kind of like what happens when rush down characters get in on you, but the rush down characters had to start the game in a situation where what you do impacts what they do.

As an ex Arakune main... I agree with you, we are demons

bro mains millia

LordKnigga at 4:30 is crazy

Is crusader an auto battler on your definition?

LordKnigga had me rolling

I actually really like ur hair grayed out, dunno if you get that but I fuck with it

Thats what Win Condition characters used to be called before it was applied to everyone. And some of those weaknesses are not nothing. Teddy has no overheads! Not even on his jumping attacks. Damage is super weak outside the corner. And they all practically die to rush down

Shoutouts to Dinotail…Teddie legend…

I pick Goldlewis because most Stive players love to manfight and Goldlewis reward is unmatched. Also he won’t let you easily escape his pressure if you don’t know how so you can’t random your way out of situations and even if you do know you have to spend resources and guess right.

A good name for the "Demon" archetype could be "Werewolf". Normal character until some condition (the full moon) is met, at which point they become ridiculous.

I was just watching a playlist of archetypes in fg ;-;

you can bearly interact with Teddy

I hate fighting grapplers and characters with oppressive moves that negate other character's gameplay hard, or have very unbalanced risk/reward like C-Roa, Rachel, Izanami, Yukari, May, Zappa, +r Testament.

It's funny, I enjoy playing all of these archetypes, and the ones that I dislike the most include characters with easy looping offense... which is pretty much LK's bread and butter.

They lied to us about persona rollback

"item throw characters are cursed" yes, I main Faust specifically because he's cursed

Amane isn't so much a chip character anymore right

Your Blazblue name lmao

if nobody got me i know mini faust don't got me either

Long watching this as someone who only plays Arakune and Amane lmfaooo

so why do you hate Answer from Rev2 ? do u just dislike how he talks while fighting or u dislike his playstyle? I don't think he has pets/items, auto battle and chip damage, I think he's such a technical and cool character.