These kinds of discussions usually leave out big body/brawler characters that are huge and loaded with armor but not grapplers. I have never really played Zangief in SF but I love Abigail for example. Big Band is probably the best example, along with Marvel 3 Hulk or Marvel 2 Juggernaut. I'll play a grappler just fine, and some of these characters are One-Shot, but I mostly want to take up a lot of space. My favorite ArcSys characters are Z Broly, Kliff & Goldlewis if you can't tell.

Setplay is definitely always going to be strong because it's inherently the strongest way to play. Knockdown situations have the least amount of interaction, so they're by far the most consistent win condition. When you build a character around that win condition, you have to try REALLY hard to make them not at least okay

I'm forever going to call playing against Item Throw characters as playing WarioWare from now on.

I think a big reason zoners and setplay characters tend to be so strong is because of how meter is used in a lot of modern games. Something I've always disliked about arcsys games is that meter resets in between rounds and burst doesn't. Setplay and puppet characters can usually start their mix meterlessly, and simply use meter to secure a kill or extend pressure if they need to, while the defenders options are limited and unrewarding without meter. If you get hit by a decent starter before you have bar it's very tempting to burst, because there's a decent chance you'll die, or at least lose most of your life before you get the meter and the opportunity to use the better defensive options. And even if you do, the best setups can cover, or at least mitigate some metered options. And once you lose the round you're back at square one. It's even worse with zoners since they almost never need to spend super meter to maintain their zoning, and most characters don't have metered answers to zoning. Even characters that can reliably use meter to get in can be blown off by burst or DA (RIP) in most cases, and the zoner doesn't suffer as much opportunity cost since they weren't going to use that resource offensively anyway. Nu is the classic example for me. It's demoralizing when she bursts, it's frustrating, infuriating even. And I know I have to be patient, but it's hard to be while you watch as the burst gradually comes back. At least before CP if Nu/Lambda bursted in round one you wouldn't have to deal with it again for a while (In my case, for the rest of the game because it's not like I won round two...). In both of these cases it feels like the small amounts meter build don't amount to anything substantial, in the long run it doesn't feel like there's a good strategy in these matchups as far as meters concerned. On the flipside, in games with persistent meter I can cut my losses in round one and play for round two. Even if I don't necessarily have a meter lead I have enough to feel like I can run my game plan. This is something I love about UNI, It's doesn't feel as bad to get zoned out by Vatista or steamrolled by Byakuya if I can focus on building meter and try to make a comeback in round two. Personally I feel like it makes meter management more fun since building GRD is such a nuanced resource. But even ignoring this, it makes for an interesting dynamic from round to round. Even if my plan pays off I'll have to end the round with enough meter to run the same strategy in the final game. And even if it doesn't work out, I at least got to try something different instead of losing in a similar way in both rounds. To put it simply, It feels like I get to play, and that's not something most people say about these kinds of characters. That said, Vat's still undisputed top-one In UNI so zoners gonna zone either way.

Can’t believe they chose anybody other than Honest Mids Michael as the icon for the mid dispenser. Tragic, really.

SF5's Poison is probably the best example of a top-tier normal zoner, and I think part of that keeping you out isn't her only win condition. She's as dangerous up close as she is at range and can force you into a strike-throw situation very easily, so it may just be because she's not a pure normal zoner.

Most of these archetypes can be boiled down to functional aspects. Stuff like how they beat blocking, how/when they get advantage, damage vs health, movement, range. The biggest outliers are joke, items/rng, puppet characters, mimic/steal characters, and game specific mechanic characters, though each character overlaps with the common archetypes.

season 1 android 16 was and still is my favorite fast grappler. good lord that man had it all!

Thanks for your time and knowledge

I love your flow. you seamlessly go from one archtype to the next

Great video, I love the concept! It’s something I think about all the time, especially when a new game comes out and I’m searching for a new character/team to play. 

I would like to give my take on how I would split up Morrigan’s all encompassing projectile zoner. Ideally it would split into 3 separate categories. Honestly, they are conceptually similar enough to put in one category, but they have enough differences to warrant separation into at least two categories i.e. projectile keep away vs projectile control. They do mix a lot though… 

- (Traditional) Zoner / Wall Huggers - Representatives: Morrigan, Peacock, Vatista, Glacius - These characters capitalize on their long range projectiles for the sole purpose of knocking back the opponent, or knocking them down to get away and create more space. They differentiate themselves as the most defensive zoners because they generally have high reward via damage / combos, or hard knockdowns / advantage to continue space control simply by hitting with their projectiles. They tend to have a good mix of different speed projectiles, and often have the highest speed projectiles relative to the rest of the cast (beams more often than not). Generally the more pure a zoner is, oddly enough, they tend to have at least one defensive option, in either an invincible reversal or the ability to teleport away. They often have poor health / stun thresholds when the game balances for such things. From a screen space perspective, they thrive at max distance, and suck ass in the mid and close range. They often have more trouble with mid range characters due to having at least one defensive option to combat close range characters. - Neutral Skippers - Representatives: Dizzy, Venom, Litchi - These characters have projectiles and strong offense much like the Zoner or a Setplay character, but lack the high reward or lower risk that those archetypes have in trade for good offense in both (really all) distances. They often use their projectiles to either chip out a low health opponent due to low reward at longer distances, or simply use their projectiles to win neutral and allow themselves a “free” way to get in on the opponent. They benefit greatly on knockdowns where they can set up a safe mix via delayed projectiles, but are often left with horrible defense; having little or no invincible reversals, no meterless reversals at all, or having low health / low stun thresholds. Looking at it from a screen space perspective, they thrive in the mid range which allows them to enter close range on their terms, but are capable in long range when needed. They lack in both long and close range compared to those range’s archetype specialists and often need to change their playstyle to accommodate for those archetype matchups. - Trap / Zone control - Representatives: Testament, Byakuya, Naoto (Persona), Kokonoe? - These characters tend to be more defensive than the Neutral Skippers, but more capable of close / mid range fighting with their buttons compared to the Zoner. Due to their control coming from traps / threats that linger on screen for a long period of time, they control a zone that the opponent must either avoid for its long duration, or go out of their way to make that zone safe again. The traps often have long duration compared to most other projectiles, but have a method to completely negate them outside of player to player interaction. They tend to be more stable as far as their own gameplan compared to Neutral Skippers. While most opponents have to think differently when facing a trap character, it often just means that they can choose to play a mini game where they can “unlock space” or “win safety back” in that zone by either spending some time or advantage to do so. Often, but not always, accompanied by resource management (That could be an archetype in and of itself), and again, lacking on defense in some way. 

The main reason I bring this up though is because I tend to gravitate towards Neutral Skippers or Trap characters, and avoid the more traditional zoner even so much as to play a more close range / mid range focused archetype instead.

I usually like the big Zangief type grappler since they’re usually mechanically simple (if harder to do well with), so they’re nice as something to play on the side for some variety.

Always a fan of a projectile zoner that can also utilize set play. This is why Dizzy will forever be my favorite fighting game character.

I think the most important point with grapplers is that they are mostly knowledge checks on the opponent and at higher levels that becomes harder to come by (someone who doesn't know the matchup). So the winrate drops as does popularity.

Feel like mid dispenser can sometimes become a blanket term that doesn't acknowledge some key characteristics about certain characters imo. Like, the archetype can make sense for characters like sol and nago who mostly wanna oppress (and dispense) but I think theres too much variance to rekka and stance characters for them to be considered in that category There's enough examples of rekka characters like kof angel whose style of pressure is practically a choose your own adventure experience, and the idea of a character with different stances can be so broad that even someone like GG leo could technically be described as a stance character

Damn, this vid was a super interesting discussion. Good shit LK. Just to throw some of my thoughts no one asked for into the ring: Stance characters: I know you just called them mid dispensers, but I think they deserve their own archetype. I think generally they end up being above average characters. I think true stance characters are essentially multiple characters. Yeah you have to learn multiple characters to play them, but the often have tools to deal with everything and learning to play them is mostly about learning to know what tool you'll need when. I think as a result, they tend to have an above average matchup spread across the game. Best examples are SFV Zeku and Aria from KI. Defense characters (you mentioend these are the end): I think these characters wib condition often lies in their defense. I think these tend to be storing as they warp the game around them. +R Baiken parrying from block or 3S Q getting is biggest reward off of good parrying. Trap Characters: I just feel like even those this archetype is rare, it's always strong whenever it shows up. I just think these characters' strength lies in the fact that they're usually taking away options from their opponent. They often sometimes feel like they're even able to checkmate you similar to some puppet characters, but I'd say their offense isn't as strong. Good examples are Cagliostro from GB, +R Testament, or UmvC3 Rocket Raccoon.

thought this was a super cool breakdown, wish you had more examples of each type of character.

After picking up a lot of fighting games I stared to realize that all the characters I gravitate towards have one thing in common, Some type of "Meter" Management (Nago, Chaos, Sin, Raven, Aegis, Android 21 {I don't know if Vaseraga and Percival count}). You get to feel "smart" when you manage the meter correctly while simultaneously feel dreadful when doing poorly and be punished for it.

This was a genius video idea

At their worst the S tier archetypes are just as bad as any other bad character, however at their best they make it a one player game, unlike the other archetypes which nearly always leave some room for the other player to interact.

What you said about set play and projectile zoners being powerful is true. But I think that the throw invulnerability on wake up that a lot of games have now, or the weakening of normal throws in general (look at DBFZ) shows how powerful mid dispensers and fast grapplers can be. So something else to mention about slow grapplers, is that anything done to nerf other archetypes also effects them. More defensive mechanics hurts them, anti set play mechanics hurt them etc. variable wake up vs a set play character and they make an option to beat both timings and cover their offence, but vs a grappler you miss your command grab and get punished

Just wanted to say that since you mentioned wanting to try kof, there's gonna be a big crossplay update for kof 15 sometime during 2023 (dunno when exactly). Would be really fun to watch you try the game if you decide to do it.

I feel like I aged 10 years seeing The Backyard watermark when Millia popped up, that's a throwback

How would you categorize parry/defensive characters like Geese Howard, or Jubei from SamSho, or Hakumen, or Baiken? I feel like they deserve to be a category of their own. Generally the strength of this archetype is pretty high, too. It also might be worth having a category for trap characters, though that's more uncommon, and you COULD just consider a lot of trap characters to be in the projectile zoner category.

Are recca characters like Fei Long or Yang examples of mid dispensers?

The resource character is one that didn't get mentioned either. The one that kids access to a limited amount of an incredibly powerful thing, and exactly how good they are is almost directly tied to how loose or tight the game is with allowing them to have that resource Happy chaos is a character with two separate resources that he has to manage, but he's designed in a way that he doesn't really have to worry about running out of either all that often so then he just becomes a really good version of a long range zoner because the resource mechanic isn't actually limiting him much. Joker and Steve in smash are also good versions of this. Whereas the gimmick character might be a weaker subclass of this, Phoenix wright building up his resources to activate a high power mode, or Yoshi in Sam Sho having to play a mini game to unlock the best move in the game

Set play, puppet characters and items Fighting two things at once can be terrifying

My Lord, please, we are starving. When is the next YT stream? As always, thank you for this blessing.

So how about counter characters like Hakumen and Baiken

@lordknight Where would you put Meter dump characters.... Those that can't extend if you don't spend?🤔

You do papa leo so dirty by making him the millia vortex stock footage guy. And that clip starts with an un-live-downable round start 5d. Thats tough

I started playing Xrd Millia for a couple of months before Strive's release, and then I also chose Millia in that game. I started playing UNI and I chose Byakuya. I picked up GBVS and I chose Zeta and Cag. And when I tried BBCF, I chose Kokonoe As you can see, I like me my setplay/oki characters xD

Coming a bit late, what do you think boxers archetypes like Slayer and Dudley fall into ? Slayer feels like a OS character for sure but he plays neutral quite differently i feel, highly defensive and playing around baiting the opponent to dare hit them.

It would’ve been nice to have Brawlers like big band, Ralf or recently Marissa. But another archetype would be multi-stance characters. You discussed my boy Johnathan Sfondi but like you said, he’s a mid dispensing rush down type, but I think the distinction to multi stance like my boys Gen, Zappa and Zeku would’ve been nice because even though they’re all very different in practice, fundamentally they’re like puppet/item toss characters, constantly changing the pace and options their opponent needs to look for

I wonder what Garchomp from Pokken Tournament would be defined as. They have a decent command grab and some elements of rushdown but the biggest draw is they're better at using the game's built in RPS system, where some attacks beat strikes but lose to grabs.

When talking about 21 you said “near unblockable setup.” What do you mean by this? Does she have like high/low/left/right/throw all in one unseeable mix, or is it just an unseeable 50/50? Because calling something near unblockable would have to be more than a 50/50 and i dont remember crazy shit like that from 21

Just out of curiosity where would yall put sf4 Abel? Fast grappler or slow grappler? I feel like there's an argument for either

I Always tend to play shotos or mid dispenser when i first pick up the game, then when i'm enough confident with game mechanics and stuff i tend to play setplay characters or normal zoners characters. I Always try puppet characters everytime 'cause i think they're the coolest, but It never clicks for me and generally struggle a lot. By far i'd say that setplay characters are my favorite out of all archetypes tho

How would you categories Xrd Jack'o. She has like 3 command grabs, and her house mechanics.

How would you classify armor characters? Like Vasaraga from gran blue

I wonder what archetypes was missing. I see some people saying about the brawlers, and stance character, and really would like to know what more archetypes are missing and what they do if possible. If anyone could say it to, I'll appreciate a lot. Besides, I live the video, for me is the best video of those that try to talk about this subject. Cheers

With what you say about item drop the thing that come to my mind is cnero of melty blood is funny and i never think about it

I'm Happy 2 of my mains got on the list. Makoto and ElizaDeath

In which category could Alex from sf could be in? I don't think he's a slow or heavy grappler, but neither a one shot

Another thing characters that fall into more than one of these categories end up being very strong especially in modern games as they have many options to rotate through vs the more linear members of the cast. Ex: pre nerf android 16. Leo strive

every time LK talks about bike key it makes me laugh

Oh- I was curious what about characters that just charge a bar or some source to do something powerful or useful? or depends on a bar for those moves- u know, like Tsubaki in BB or Nazuna in Arcana heart, Perceival in GBvs, like that? ... but maybe is not something common, like counter/parry oriented characters... like Zeta from GBvs or Kasumi from KoF...

I want more puppet character... zato has to be coolest character I ever played with, I regret not playing previous gg games

anyone got a link for this list?

Nice, this is a fun discussion topic. What do we think about "install" characters, like ABA or Adult Gohan?

Nago has setplay from neutral ofc, he can setplay you with a single special!

You forgot defensive characters like Hakumen and Baiken in XRD.

Now we just need a character that is a Puppet Setplay with Item Throw and Projectile Zoning.

I feel like Yun from 3S represents two separate archetypes that aren't on the list, divekick characters and install characters, where while divekick characters can be described as rush down it's not really what Yun ends up doing (he mostly runs away due to the install part) and to me is a very distinct style of movement that isn't encapsulated by say ninja characters or other rushdown types due the ease of faking/baiting movement. Then on the install side of things it's the defining trait of the character for most people, wherein the character flip flops from regular/mediocre to super powerful and the matchup revolves around gaining or preventing the ability to enter the install state. Other than that seems like you captured most things!

solid content concept & execution. 👍 don't you think the emphasis of this list is not just 'character' archetypes but 'mechanic' archetypes❔️ the difference is subtle, but a list of 'mechanics' highlights playstyle peaks 🗻 where a 'character' list notes the complete package 🗂 of characters. do you see how this list might exaggerate mechanical extremes?

Damn, this is a pretty good sPREAAAD.

18:56 what about +r Kyle?

CPEX Nu is an example of a really good projectile/traditional zoner

This is a good video and an interesting look at fighting game archetypes but feel that the projectile zoners is a bit too high up. Historically so were thay busted but the last real projectile zoner that was absurd was UMVC3 Morigan and that's more then 10 years ago. I will say that i am not 100% sure that H.Chaos fits into the projectile zoner camp, yes he attacks you from full-screen but he feels more like a mid dispenser with infinite reach.

Are floaty characters an archetype of their own?

I want Leo Whitefang to hold me in his PTSD ridden loving arms

do you consider "Footsie" characters to be valid? I do, Hydro has a fantastic video about archetypes where he describes what he consider to be footsie characters. Also, i wonder if what you call mid dispenser are footsie character, to me they are similar in how many mid pokes they have

Is it me, or is there a lot of overlap with One-Shot characters using Greatswords? While they're all kind of slower than Makoto, they all seem to have very similar attributes like: - huge range/space control with the weapon - massive damage output when catch you - highly momentum based - sub-par defense - big s-word Character's like: Nagoriyuki (GG Strive) Kliff Undersn (GG) Tusk (Killer Instinct) Kagura Mutsuki(BB) Nightmare (Soul Calibur)

What exactly makes a rushdown mixup character worse than a mids dispenser? Is it pretty much just damage output?

setplay characters are monsters in bracket because of how easy they are on your brain. A shoto type character has to play neutral for almost the full 99 seconds, as opposed to setplay characters who just knock them down and then pick from a list of 3 or 4 options to kill with. A shoto player ends up having to make a lot more real decisions on a tournament day where the setplay character needs to win neutral a lot less times.

...no counter characters huh? Baiken, Hakumen, Asuka, Leifang, all my people ain't there huh. I see you LK

Would like to see you play KOF one day

thoughts on izanami in bbcf?

So basically Seth in undernight is setplay but also mixup but also speedster at the same time

17:50 fast grapplers also tend to not have any armor or defensive abilities like slow grapplers do.

Is giovanna considered a mid dispenser?

How tall is that couch behind LK? Holy shit!

Is Hakumen from BlazBlue a One Shot?

Hey what archetype in this does may from ggst fall into?

Remember when people thought Vlov, a projectile zoner that starts 'weak' but gets stronger when he loses, was gonna be bad in Melty because of shield? Turned out, he was amazing at dealing with shield AND they had to nerf shield anyway! And Japan STILL thinks this character is bad and inconsistent.

Jigglypuff in melee is a joke character the devs added as an easter egg basically and shes top tier!

Puppet characters for me will always be the most egregious. Because they always combine extremely stupid setplay with god neutral on TOP of the best blockstring offense. Like Millia hits you and runs a spooky mixup and then its over. Carl runs 3 mixups in a blockstring, and if he hits you once he unblockable loops you.

Where is the runaway character? Like r+ bridget and Amane

Stance characters?

Item characters in S-tier. Lesssss go!!!!!

Joke characters are D tier? But have you seen Lowain and his perfectly fair and honest SSA

Roboky is an actual viable and competetive joke character as well

LK videos don't miss

Should have mentioned AC+ Pot and CPEX Tager....They are the MENACE TO SOCIETY.

I've always seen Millia as more of a rushdown and Testament as more of a setplay character.

CAN we talk about the « restance » character ( they can « not » put u in the situation at the end of their combo for force u to standup and get a mix »

pretty good but i think normal zoners should be a bit higher theyre definatly better then the rest of b

i think putting ryu as the "system" guy is kind of ironic since for the longest time in SFV he couldn't use the crush counter system since his HK launched.

My favorite is when they mix the setplay character, with a zoner. Bb Rachel the best, dont @ me :D

Kohaku is a grappler?

I said this on stream and I'll say it again Neko can never be D-tier Unless you move her up to SSSSSS Tier your opinion is invalid. But assuming you did do that, the video was super great Was really cool to see which chars you thought represented each archetype as well which archetypes you thought existed in general. Really got me thinking about which type of character X person is. 10/10 Move Neko up the list

Wouldn’t dizzy be more of a set play character

i think neco arc and strive Faust are the only "bad" item throwers. I say "bad" because Faust is getting lots of significant buffs, and because of the fact he has a huge skill ceiling, this makes it so that pros can do absolutely crazy shit Petition to make j2k plus on hit :)

Funny that you put ggst faust for item throw characters considering he's considered one of the weakest character in strive

You forgot one archetype: The Jack-of-all Trades character, the char that can do at least a bit of everything. And no, it's not a shoto, because shotos have a very specific template with their movesets. I'm talking about chars that have at least a bit of everything and there moves don't follow a certain mold. For example, Reptile from Mortal Kombat.

I'm surprised Stance character wasn't in the list

what archetype is happy chaos?

Setplay bros :D

Tell jmcroft to do the brian_f combo

Akumz cant be a setplay character anymore, is just the greatest shoto of all Time 🤣❤️