"Kylo Ren didn't join the fascists because he was seduced by fascist ideology, Kylo Ren is a fascist figurehead out of spite" - which describes just about every edgelord on the internet these days.

"What's your name?" "Finn" "No last name? Who are your people?" "I have no people" "Hmm ... Finn Solo"

"The empire, who has been in power since before Luke was born." Yeah, by like 12 freaking hours.

I'll say this again: as problematic as the prequels are in their execution, I think the overall plot about the rise of tyranny and the fall of Anakin and the Jedi order is a gold star plot in concept, and is pretty well executed in the Clone Wars animated series.

"The only good line from the prequels...." I am disappointed in you Lindsay. Only a Sith deals in absolutes

"The Empire had a good idea or something" -The First Order

I always view the First Order as nothing more than Empire fanboys, in the same way that Kylo is basically a Darth Vader fanboy. They're the neo-nazis to the Third Reich; the less inspired successor to a previously titanic superpower.

“Despite being fiction, the First Order is based” - Lindsay Ellis

I assumed the First Order was founded by all the orphans the Rebels created when they blew up the Death Stars.

Dark Helmet: Now you know evil will always triumph because good is dumb. That is really everything I know about the empire or the first order.

Revisiting this post-TROS is so funny to me, because JJ and Terrio basically said, "Nah man, let's just bring the Empire back instead and not answer any questions about the power system we created."

I really like that line referencing “an absurd level of 13 dimensional chess on the part of palpatine.” Especially in light of recent events

In the closeups of Lindsay, there is a bottle of ketchup next to Starscream. In the wide shots, there is not.

"The only good line from the prequels?" How insulting! Aren't you forgetting the masterful _"I don't like sand."_ *IT WAS PURE POETRY, DAMMIT.*

Fascism, much like pornography, is hard to define, but I know it when I see it.

"Ring that bell so it will do whatever it's supposed to do." That's an optimistic look at KZfaq's reliability.

WWII was based on star wars

Goebbels hated Riefenstahl for two reasons: 1.He thought propaganda should always be disguised as entertainment and thought her films were a bit too on the nose. 2.She was a woman.

Who is Captain Phasma? I don't remember her doing anything in the movies except dying and being shiny.

A couple things people usually miss is the deliberate parallels to other Imperialism, British and American. Lucas did intend for the film to be a parallel to the Vietnam war, thus, IMO the United States is actually the closest real world parallel to the Empire.

FINALLY, a star wars analysis that talks about Riefenstahl 🙏🙏🙏 thanks for giving her the Nickelback®️

One thing I like about the portrayal of the First Order is how youthful they are. In Force Awakens there's people in military uniforms on Starkiller base that look like teenagers. Kylo is still in his 20s and Hux is probably only a little older and they're commanding this giant fascist military force that fetishizes the fascist military force of the past. Which is genius, because it shows that having not grown up under the oppression of the empire, they don't understand how horrible it was. This is something that's become increasingly relevant today with teenagers larping as Nazis.

It just amazes me that people can sink untold millions into movies like these without having any semblance of a plot or central tension.

Just realised this means Kylo Ren doesn't need Rey. He needs Contrapoints. Hope they hired her for the rise of the Skywalker.

*wE dEmAnD tO bE tAkEn SeRiOuSly!*

Bloodline wrongfully used "centrist" (somebody in the middle of the political spectrum) instead of "centralist" (somebody who prefers centralization of power as opposed to federalists)

Actually, the Expanded Universe/Legends did expand more on the ideology of the Empire which wasn’t really touched on in the movies themselves. This was partially used as an explanation of why the Empire only used human characters in a series where we clearly see the existence of many aliens in the first movie. To create an explanation, the Empire is explicitly said to be xenophobic and discriminate or enslave non-humans. And the further away from humanoid you got, the more they were oppressed. Some were even deemed non-sentient. There was also an undercurrent of misogyny in the EU Empire. Again, this was a way of explaining the lack of female characters in the movie. This, however, was largely unspoken unless the story was talking about an exception to that rule. Characters like Ysanne Isard or Natasi Daala had multi-book arcs and served as major villains, but they were said to have succeeded despite the general disregard for women in the Imperial military. Of note is the three main architects of the Empire themselves are exceptions to the one or both rules. Grand Moff Tarkin was virulently xenophobic and actually kept Admiral Ackbar (It’s a trap) as a slave, barely considering him better than an animal. But Tarkin also supported Daala (who was also his mistress) and didn’t seem to have issues with women in positions of power. Vader never seemed to have problems with aliens or women in all the incarnations I can think of. The most interesting was Palpatine. Depending on the book or comic, he was either xenophobic or merely using that ideology to ensure the loyalty of those in power that did think that way. There’s actually a fair amount of evidence that Palpatine himself very much only had a personal ideology. He cared only about his own power and goals instead of the glory of the Empire. Because of that, he used everyone fairly equally. His master and first apprentice were both non-humans. He even promoted another non-human, Thrawn, to one of the highest levels of power in the Empire. As far as women, Palpatine seemingly was fairly equal in his treatment. He was responsible for Isard becoming a high level official and used women just as often as men as his personal assassins and agents. The EU was filled with fascinating takes on how those in the upper echelons of power during the Empire actually functioned and what they believed. The new Disney canon, however, actually has been steering the Empire away from xenophobia and misogyny. Women started showing up in positions of power in the Imperial military as a normal occurrence. While there might be an undercurrent of xenophobia left over for some characters, like Thrawn (he was carried over to the new canon), it wasn’t anywhere near the extent the EU had it. humanocentrism was still a thing, but not as much emphasis. And just to be clear, xenophobia/humanocentrism here is the closest analogue Star Wars has for racism. In neither the EU nor Disney Canon was the race of a character ever of importance. Humans were just grouped together.

George Lucas has talked about how the original film was just as much based on the Vietnam War, and based the Emperor on Nixon.

The villains market better because of their generic nature. Luke and Leia are Mark and Carrie, they have faces. Vader and the Storm Troopers don't, they could be anyone under those masks, the marketing is the mask, not the individual. That's one of the reasons superheroes work so well from a marketing perspective, they have masks too.

The stormtrooper parade in Disneyland is really bizarre. Do they have Claude Frollo assaulting gypsies there too?

I thoroughly have problems with people who like the Empire/First Order/Sith. Seriously, it's not like "Hey I'm an antihero and I do what I want", they straight up blow up a PLANET with billions of people in the first damn movie.

The ideology of the Frist Order? Daddy issue may be?

I assumed the "plot points without context" was deliberate- Kylo doesn't really understand what Vader believed or tried to accomplish, he just wanted to be cool like grandpa

See I always viewed Kylo Ren as the conflicted nihilist. He chooses to believe that nothing matters anymore but the events of the films force him to question that maybe something does matter. He's questioning what in his life matters, therefore, his random tantrum breakdowns and acts of violence.

The one thing that always struck me about the whole franchise was that the defense contractors made out like bandits. Who was building all these massive star cruisers, tie fighters and space stations.

I'm currently reading the Tarkin novel that came out a couple years back and there's an interesting private exchange between Vader and Sidious where Vader says something about the good of the Empire and Sidious responds with basically "Screw the Empire, what about the good of ME?". Maybe the reason Fascist ideology is so hard to pin down is because Fascist ideology is simply whatever Dear Leader wants it to be at any given moment?

I just want to say that I'm very jealous of that Masterpiece Starscream toy That is all

I got into an argument with a co-worker when he told me he preferred the Empire to the Rebellion because the Rebellion murdered all the civilians on the Death Star and never shed a tear. I looked at him and said, “ALDERAAN?”

“The First Order is based more than anything.” No, Lindsay! You’ve become a Star Wars KZfaqr!

2:05 "The First Order is based." - Lindsay Ellis, 2018

This level of analysis is lightyears beyond anything at Channel Awesome

This is a very good video and I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think it's fair to say in addition that the First Order could exist due to someone like Snoke understanding without an Empire, he can imitate some of the characteristics and imagery and simply give a lot of the people who were simply used to the Empire - people of privilege, not particularly bothered by the Empire - some familiarity to latch onto. This wouldn't require a lot of ideological explanation from Snoke, just imagery and claiming to be picking up the pieces. "Restoring former glory" is probably enough for people like the Head Dreadnought Guy who gets blown up at the beginning of TLJ.

Wow, so much for the tolerant light side

I generally love your video essays, but there's one thing, I just have to call out, because it really hurts: It's about that black-red-and-gold print on that "Germany"-Mug: please don't to connect these colours with the Nazis. These are the federal coulours (Bundesfarben, Art. 22 Abs. 2 Grundgesetz - the German post-war constitution, litterally: base law), which the Nazis resented. These colours do NOT represent fascism nor nazism but the liberal movement of 1848, which eventually culminated in the Weimarer Republik. No wonder, the Nazis hated these colours, especially the third one (which is said to represent freedom) and mocked them by calling them "Schwarz-Rot-Senf" - black-red-mustard. The Nazis' colours were black-white-red, compare the swastika flag. These colours were also those of the second Reich, to which they saw themselves as kind of successors. I hope I could clarify this point, as many non-Germans (and a lot of Germans) get these colours combinations mixed up. But for me it feels just wrong to see the Bundesfarben connected to enemies of the Grundgesetz, which was designed with the horrors of the Third Reich in mind especially to provide liberty and human rights and to prevent the rise of another terror regime. No hard feelings though. BTW: it's pronounced Reichs-Tag, not Reishtag. S and T are only pronounced as "sht," if both letters are part of the same sylable, which they are not in this word.

"The alliance of magicians" I'm glad this video came out today. Lindsay, nice work☆

Yes! I mean, no. We are sick of them. But one from you? We can watch one more.

Looking back at this, I'd love to see a follow-up, post-"Rise of Skywalker!"

I'm so glad there are people like you making these despite the constant "why bother with it" comments and attitude. These encourage me to think, they build my perspective, and they are incredibly entertaining. It's a good, perspective building time! (Also find it interesting these have a largely consistent 1.5 to 2k dislike when I've noted it, regardless of views. That's some dedicated haters.... 😬😬)

"What if *everyone* was a stormtrooper?" Warhammer.

"I'm just kidding, I don't read the comments." And with that, my respect for you has increased.

8:55 Au contraire, madame. "No one can kill a Jedi." "I wish that were so."

Wasn't expecting my English teacher to assign a lindsey ellis video as homework but im not complaining

8:55, A list of good lines in the prequels. "Hello there" "You wanna buy some death sticks?" "You were the chosen one!" The tragedy of Darth Plauguis. "I love democracy." "This is where the fun begins" "Another happy landing"

If the First Order is an allegory for fascism, then what are Porgs an allegory for?

One of the main factors in why the first order has no real philosophy or politics beyond angry boys cosplaying as nazis is JJ Abrams. Abrams has no distinct ditectorial style. His main gimmick is mimicking the styles of other more famous directors and then filling in the holes in his story with pointless mystery boxes. This has never been more apparent than when comparing force awakens to last jedi. Force Awakens is all spectacle, set piece special effects, and plot beats shamelessly copied from new hope. It has no themes because Abrams doesn't know how to work thematic story telling into his films. By contrast last jedi is so packed with thematic story telling that the mystery boxes and other weak plot points from previous films are ignored completely. In short, force awakens asks the audience "Hey kids! Remember star wars?" While last jedi asks its audience "How do you deal with your own personal shame and failure?"

Lindsay, come back!! Andor gave the Empire an actual ideology!!

When I was about 10 years old I saw my dad watching a WWII documentary and I said "They look like Star Wars people." God bless everyone 😇

I mean... “We demand to be taken seriously” was kinda the driving motivation of Imperial Japan during WWII

I found Lindsey Ellis after she stopped making content and I’m freaking devastated. I need new videos!❤

I saw Star Wars with my mom in 1977. When he left the movie theater, she said I've seen this movie lots of times when I was a kid. It's just like the war movies we watched during the war, like that spaceship in in the movie was a B-17 with the twin gun turrets. So yeah, it was noted right away.

The downside of the new trilogy is that so much of the backstory and motivation of the First Order is buried in the books and simply not explored within the cinematic universe. Is the First Order neo-fascist? Yes and you can see a lot of parallels with how Nazism arose in Germany after they had lost WWI. They scapegoat the rebels and the Jedi as the reason everything failed, without looking at the context of the atrocities committed by the Empire. Then, they capitalize on the iconography of an older, perceived powerful culture (Nazis with Rome/Nordic imagery and ideology). Finally, you create your ur-fascist hero (Bismark for the German people), though the real target for this in the new series is actually more Thrawn/Tarkin and not Vader. Hux is set up as the Hitler replacement here, though more conditioned and less intelligent. In the books, this is directly alluded to as Hux was brought in as a child purposely to mold him into this figure. Another issue is why is there so much complacency in the universe as the First Order arises. Again, the books make a couple points. 1. Under the empire, most of the needs of the common people are met. Despite how terrible the Empire might have been, there are many planets suffering from food/resource shortages after it's collapse. 2. There are still loyalists who would view the rebels as villains and Luke as the greatest threat. To many family members of those that died on both Death Stars, these people are terrorists. Lastly, Kylo is complex for the same reason pointed out in this video. He doesn't care about the First Order or their ambitions other than how, once he gains power, he can use them to achieve his ambitions. His issues with authority are a big point in the books and understandable when you consider that he had two absentee parents (Han didn't want to settle down and be a dad and Leia was too busy in her diplomatic career. Then you get Luke who isn't honest with him about Vader (like Obi Wan and his "certain point of view") and fails to warn Kylo as Yoda did for Luke in the cave on Degoba. Turns out, Luke struggles with a bit of the dark-side pull as one would who would likely exhibit some form of PTSD once they reflected on what they had done in wartime. However, he's never honest with Kylo about it and it plays into how/why he gets manipulated by Snoke. If Kylo has a mirror with the Nazi imagery, it's more akin to Himmler than Hitler. Kylo is fascinated by the occult aspects of the old Sith (as noted in the books) and is exemplified with his leadership of the Knights of Ren. His fascination within the force is as an occultist, looking to bring back the true power of religious mysticism.

You don't deserve turn down for what. Plays Nickelback. LOL

I'm glad you acknowledged the "thunderous applause" line as the best in the prequel trilogy because I've always had the same thought.

22:29 "fictional villains always draw their inspiration from real world bad things... and that's fine." Are you listening Extra Credits?

Excuse me, the only good line in the prequels is "Don't try it Anakin, I have the high ground".

In my perspective, the First Order seems to much more mirror modern facists: modern fanboys of an ideology they don't understand, who get sucked into it unknowingly, and by the time they become truly facist, it's too late. Kylo Ren is nothing but a modern-day facist: he's a young man who's disinhertened by the system handed to him because it's harder than what was promised to him by fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers (despite the fact that it's still relatively easy) (this is the dreaded "multiculturalism" where suddenly minorities and women are allowed to be given a small percentage of power instead of none at all). His father figures having failed him--his father essentially divorcing from his mom, his uncle starting to show concern that he's too much like Anakin--he turns to another father figure (Snoke) for guidance, one who has always been lurking in the shadows (i.e., Nazis and racists). This father figure gives Kylo Ren an ancestor to align himself with, like a man who fought in the war on the side of the Empire (Nazis). See? Your grandfather (Darth Vader) or your great-grandfather fought on this side! Surely it must not be so bad! Then the new father figure convinces him, little by little, that it was always great for us (white men) like the ancestor--why isn't it great now? Why is it so hard now? (Effectively ignoring economic issues, like house market crashes or an entire empire collapsing and requiring reconstruction, or the fact that it wasn't great for everyone, just men in power.) He gives him something to blame--a newly formed Republic, a minority, etc. He tells him that those who show concern for this blossoming new ideology simply do not want him to gain power like how they used to, convincing him that families and friends being concerned about him is something he should feel threatened by. And so when Luke finally decides in a moment of weakness, enough is enough, that his darkness is too great, that's when Kylo Ren turned. And when he does? What does Snoke make him do? Be a glorified henchmen. Kylo Ren kills Snoke because he, too, was disappointing him. He wants to convince Rey to join him because he thinks that this will solve his problem: "my loss of power will go away when I subjugate a woman, when I force someone else to do what Snoke did to me." I've kinda always seen Kylo Ren that way, not as a tragic villain with a sob story but a villain who convinced himself that he was a victim, just like modern day facists.

"But despite being fiction, the First Order is based." I actually thought the sentence ended there for a second lmao

Man I miss Lindsay :( I love all her content and it helped me get though some hellish times. To hell with dogpiles.

KZfaq demonitization after the word fascist is used: "Its treason, then"

"It's Leia's home planet and she make a sad face" that cracked me up

Probably in technicality, the Empire was the first old fascists of their world and the First Order being the Neo Fascists/Neo Nazis. The guys who kind of wanting to return to that "Glory" age of the Galaxy...

Snoke in that gold robe: "see how I glitter ✨"

My friend said to me the other day; ''Star was was better with George in charge as he wasn't all about the toys'' .... HOW I LOL'ed :)

Fascists without a cause

Drinking game: Take a drink every time you see the ketchup bottle!

Huh, this did made realize how realistic the facism in Imperium of Man from 40k.

14:56 The Empire actually did scapegoat alien series a lot, in canon. Many alien species were treated as second-class citizens and whole worlds of aliens​ were enslaved, including wookies.This was a really great video though, I just had a few concepts I felt like I could add to this.

The "Who is driving? Bear is driving!" Is the best reference you have ever made

Did only me notice that Heinz Ketchup bottle appearing and disappearing in the background 😂

The use of the scene from Arrested Development("We demand to be taken seriously") was hilarious each time.

Never sick of Star Wars essays, especially if it's coming from you.

A pretty standard interpretation of Paradise Lost is that Milton intentionally made Satan charming and seductive, and made his arguments seem reasonable in order to convey the seductiveness of sin. If sin, and therefore Satan, is obviously stupid and lame, then it's hard to argue that they only way to avoid sin is Jesus. He wants the reader to identify with Satan to trick them into liking him, so that he can turn around and say, "got you! See?" Or it could be that everyone just agrees that the best villains kind of have a point. A villain who is evil for no good reason is uninteresting, but one that is seductive makes the story seem real and draws you in because you care. So when you want your audience to identify with a character, as you typically do, then you create a hero who is likable and familiar, but also as vague as possible. He's supposed to be a blank slate that the audience can project themselves onto. Hence Keanu Reeves. If your hero has too much detail, not everybody will see themselves as him. So an enemy group that has a vague fascist look takes advantage of our culture's shorthand for what a bad guy looks like, but by avoiding as much detail as possible, it aids in letting the audience project themselves onto them, and identify with them. The temptation of going over to the wrong side is thrilling to the audience, and helps give the enemy verisimilitude; they audience can see why the villain attracts followers since they themselves felt a little pull too. The desire to merchandise space nazi swag is certainly correct in the case of Lucasfilm/Disney. But there's other reasons why an ur-fascist antagonist would lack a clear ideology. I'm sad that you don't read the comments, but I don't blame you. KZfaq comments are the worst.

Their ideology is simple... look cool, behave in a naughty way.

I'm here after Episode 9........man ONLY having to question the ideology of the First Order was such a simpler time.

takes a hard right turn out of my daily routine for lindsay time

Punishing Leni Riefenstahl with Nickelback for being a Nazi is my new kink. Ps: In case you decide to take a peak at the comments anyway: I love your work. It is insightful, funny and current.

I found this channel recently, I am in love with both content and Lindsay, The way she explains is always amazing.

If Riefenstahl was a director in the 2010s or 2020s there would be hordes of online conservatives talking about how "unfair" it is that she's being "cancelled" and "called nazi for no reason"

11:10 "Which itself has a bad habit of aping plot points from A New Hope without importing that all-important context." JJ Abrams in a nutshell, folks. (And Zack Snyder)

I am pretty sure that the first order not have any real ideology is more a reaction to the "The prequels are bad because they focus on boring stuff" idea. A in depth, understandable reason actually put into the movies would be as boring as "trade disputes",a at least in Disney's mind it is. It's why anything related to the rise of the first order has been put in novels and comics, because while star wars fans want that stuff, they think the average joe does not. Disney has been hard core acting on this since they bought Star Wars.

Because Kylo Ren has no ideology... he will NEVER be satisfied.

Thank you for answering (or trying, at least) a question that popped up in my head and didn’t let me sleep last night.

'Those Goddamn Wookiees are takin' our jobs!' I love you Lindsay

This video was terrific and I loved the discussion of fascist iconography. You touched upon it slightly, but my reading of the First Order's ideology is very close to much of neo-nazis. What I mean by that is that a lot of it is built around a worship and iconography of a totalitarian state, but the ideology is nothing more than a charade for hate. As the Empire was quite clearly the "space nazis" and built around having a stronger sense of ideology I see the First Order like many 20-something neo-nazis: fanboys using that to further their hate, but without any idea of what to do in actual power. That's why the "we demand to be taken seriously" is not just an awesome joke, but in a way such a big truth. They have no actual idea or identity, instead they are built around being unhappy with the current leadership and anything that might belittle them. Notice how focused they are in bringing down the last part of the Resistance, with ALL of their leadership there. It's because it's the only way to stop the people who might actually make people not take them seriously, which is their biggest threat. Snoke seems to have built the organization to cater to young hateful people, as a way to mask their anger as politics, like many real neo-fascist organizations do. The First Order kind of doesn't have a plan (beyond Snoke), because all of them are just there because they are MAAAAD.

That was a very good essay. Very informative. Presented well. Heinz is the only way to go

It disgusts me that a howling mob of hyenas have silenced this woman of clever wit, creativity, and analytical rigour. A mob who will never - either singularly or collectively - evenly remotely match Lindsay in dialectical quality. :(

1:30 I can already tell you the First Orders ideology. Empire fan boys.

Umberto Eco AND Arrested Development in a Star Wars video? I am so in love with you now.

Just found this channel and I'm slowly watching through some of your old content. I must say I appreciate the Clerks animated series reference "Who is driving? Bear is driving. HOW CAN THAT BE?" That took me back. Also, great analysis.

These videos are absolutely epic. Late to the party but crikey it’s so excellently done