I dont generally long for any fantasy to be true, but the idea of meeting the last remnants of Tolkien's elves in some peaceful forest pulls strongly at my heartstrings.

Vision of last Elves leaving Middle-Earth is both very romantic and tragically sad at the same time; it's truly an end of an era!

Tolkien's writing in 'Nature of Middle Earth' tell us that Elves bodies would eventually cease to exist and they would just remain as spirits in the World. Thanks for the great video!

Re the Tragedy of Arwen... She receives the Doom of Men - which is also the Gift of Men - so I would say her passing is no tragedy, though getting there may be a bitter journey given her grief. Her spirit will pass in the same way as all men - beyond the world to an unknown fate. If we think of this as Heaven - then she would perhaps be reunited with Aragorn.

I love Bilbo's poem of farewell. And I also love the final travel between the best of fellows, Legolas and Gimli.

I always pictured some elf going to the Shire to help with the Red Book, adding tales that Bilbo or Frodo may not have known about, before fading away . . .

You forgot about Elladan and Elrohir. It is stated that they stayed in Middle-Earth even after Elrond departed for Valinor, and that Celeborn came to stay with them before he too departed for the Grey Heavens. The brothers' final destiny is afaik unknown

Since this was Tolkien's original intent to write a legendarium about the Folklore of the Fae for the British Isles, and how they diminished over time, I suppose we can assume that elves stayed along with other elementals.

iirc there was a passage in the Silmarillion that said not all the elves left Middle Earth, but the ones who chose to remain were destined to lose their grace and become "a rustic folk of dell and cave..." I always found that poetic and sad.

Daeron and Maglor certainly stayed an dissolved, one turned into the whispers in the waters, the other the whispers in the woods.

From what I got from Tolkiens text was the following: Most of the Calaquendi left middle earth, which would include Celeborn, Elladan, Elrohir and Cirdan. Thranduil is another matter, as he was a Sinda, but not from a line of Olwe, Elwe or Elmo. He may have left, but I think he stayed with his people in Mirkwood. The Noldor and Sindar leave and the last ship was Cirdans, who took with him the other two with "crowns." This could be Celeborn and Thranduil or someone else entirely. There is reason to believe that Celeborn left before Cirdan, because he left his new realm of East Lorien after a few years, stayed with Elladan and Elrohir and then departed to be with Galadriel. I guess that the other two rulers where Elladan and Elrohir, because they seemed to have inherited the rule over Imladris from Elrond and Celeborn went there to stay with them. Now to the other elves: We know that Lothlorien was deserted when Arwen went there after Aragorns death and most of its inhabitants went to East Lorien and lived there. Lindon was also inhabited by elves, as was Mirkwood and Ithilien. Most - if not all - of those elves where Moriquendi, so Nandor and their descendants, the Tawarwaith. They where described by Tolkien as being less wise, but more dangerous than the Noldor or Sindar and much more in tune with nature. We can assume that their fate was what Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion - that they would fade and become spirits of nature and the woods, without form and body, but still there. The Nandor loved their woods more than anything and they never gave a toss about the sea. So they will of course stay and inevitably fade. At the end of the 3rd Age most elves already are on the move to leave, like Gildor and his company indicate. They keep the havens open for all who wish to leave. So this also means that some dont wish to leave as well. Galadriel decided to leave because she understood that Nenya would fade and she would not be able to keep time and her longing at bay anymore. Also she conquered her worst attribute - her pride - and was then accepted back into Valinor by the Valar. Arwen chose a human fate and death, so she is out of the picture. Elladan and Elrohir succeed Elrond in Imladris, Celeborn founds a new realm, Thranduil stays and rules his kingdom and Legolas even founds his own princedom as well. What happened to Maeglor, Daeron, Elured and Elurin is not secure so they are out of the picture for now. So we still see development from the elves, just not from the Calaquendi but from those who always stayed in middle earth. The Reunited kingdom of course would have a good relationship with them, as would Dale and Rohan or Erebor and the Iron Hills. I think elves where still a sight in the early fourth age, rare but still around but they would have kept to themselves and stayed inside their forests. Maybe their immortality also faded and when they "died" they became spirits of nature. With the rise of men also came the coming of industrialization. This of course would clash with the wood loving Nandor / Tawarwaith who still remained. I remember that Tolkien wrote in one of his letters to his wife that some of the creatures in his story are metaphors for the world - Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the spirit of the countryside close to his house; unchanging and powerful. The elves are creatures out of the new world that comes after them and they will fade into that as something new - spirits and echos.

I am sure some stayed. Tolkien told us --- in typically uncertain terms --- that there could have been a small settlement on the south side of the White Mountains, and there were some stragglers who wandered through the Shire, as Frodo and company met. We really don't know how long they remained, though they apparently intended to leave eventually. And I believe the reason why Legolas built a ship in Ithilien was because that was considerably less trouble than undertaking a long journey from there to the Grey Havens.

I’m sure Cirdan(Nelwë/Nowë) was one of the elves that succeeded in the original design of the elves. To remain and guide & teach/mentor mankind until they shift further into the “unseen realm”, and he may yet still have physical form to this day. And as it’s stated in the books: for those who are willing to seek them out and have the hearts and sensibilities to hear AND listen to them that man will have gained something oh so priceless.

I sometimes tell my children stories of Arda, as if they were indeed ages long lost to time. So it is that I also tell them that elves do exist, though just not visible to us anymore. My daughter especially loves that :)

Celeborn left lothlorien long before Arwen arrived. He went to Imladris to live with Elladan and Elrohir. Yet also in either the story of arwen and aragorn or some other place its said "none now walk in the gardens of Elrond" so they would have left Imladris at that time.

What I'd like to know is what happened to all the spirits trapped in the Dead Marshes? Were they eventually freed like the spirits of the dead under the mountain, or were they sufferred to exist as ghosts lighting little candles until the breaking of the world?

There were likely thousands of elves still in Middle Earth for much or most of the 4th age. But they would always have the power and choice to just build a ship and sail West. They don't have to have Cirdan. just to build a ship.

Great video! I always felt that a few of the Elves remained. Reading the appendices many times over it always seemed that Tolkien meant to convey that some stayed in Middle Earth feeling, as you state, the need to heal what they could of the lands after millennia of destruction.

As far as I have been able to tell, Arwen chose to be human - admittedly, High Man, similar to a Numenorean - when she married Aragorn. Her living another 120 years is due to the long life of High Men (from the grace of the Valar), and her dying 'of grief' is also in line with how Numenoreans aged and died - not really from old age, but because they were tired of living. Arwen had no reason to live longer at that point; her love was dead, her son grown and busy ruling Gondor, and none of her kin left in Middle-Earth to talk to... so she laid herself down and surrendered her life after wandering through lands of happy memory for a year. Thus she passed beyond the realm of Arda until the Dagor Dagorath.

Perhaps Legolas built his own ship knowing that Gimli was to accompany him on the journey. Maybe the other elves wouldn’t have wanted a dwarf, even an elf-friend of Gimli’s renown, traveling to Elvenhome. So rather than talking about it with others, he took the decision onto himself.

The Avari in great number with the Sindar still remain as they were always meant to. To guide and mentor humanity so they could better handle their two pronged gift of Man. dominion over the physical realm while the elves shift deeper into the unseen realm.

I imagine most of the HIgh and Grey Elves left, but surely a contingent of Silvan Elves who never made it past the Misty Mountains and settled all along the Anduin stayed. Plus Avari who never even made it to the MM and stayed in the East, if there were any left, and were probably already well into their ultimate fate.

(Elves near extinction) Why the elves couldn’t help as much as some may have wished at the final battle of we Helms Deep & other places: By the Third Age of Middle-earth, the population of Elves had significantly decreased from their numbers in the earlier Ages. It is estimated that there were only a few thousand Elves remaining in Middle-earth by this time. One reason why Elves didn't have much military prowess to help out more in the Third Age is because they had already fought many battles in the previous Ages, & were weary of war ontop of Lothlòrien(where Galadriel is) being constantly attacked throughout this current story during the trilogy story but the movies never show it. Additionally, many of the great Elven kingdoms had already fallen, & the remaining Elves had scattered across Middle-earth, making it difficult to organize a large-scale military force. Furthermore, Elves had a deep respect for the natural world, and were hesitant to engage in battles that could harm the environment. They preferred to use their skills in magic and healing to assist in battles, rather than fighting directly. Despite their reduced numbers and military prowess, Elves still played an important role in the events of the Third Age. They were instrumental in the quest to destroy the One Ring, and many fought bravely in battles against Sauron's forces. However, they had to be strategic about their involvement, as they knew that they could not sustain heavy losses without risking the extinction of their entire race. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ In J.R.R. Tolkien's works, the exact population of Elves in Middle-earth during the Third Age is not explicitly stated. However, it is generally believed that their numbers had greatly diminished by this time, with only a few remaining Elven kingdoms & settlements scattered across Middle-earth. Some sources estimate that there may have been only a few thousand Elves left in Middle-earth by the Third Age. It is important to note that the exact population of Elves in Middle-earth is not a major focus of Tolkien's works, as he was more concerned with the individual characters & their journeys rather than the demographics of Middle-earth. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ While there are no exact figures given in Tolkien's works, some fans have attempted to estimate the population of Elves in Middle-earth during the Third Age using various mathematical models comparing to what was known about the past. One such estimate, based on the size of Elven settlements & their likely populations, suggests that there may have been around 100,000 Elves scattered across Middle-earth from different clans as it were with slightly different diverging history at certain points during the Third Age. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ The population of Elves in Middle-earth changed over time due to a variety of factors, including wars, migrations, & natural disasters. During the First Age, Elves were relatively numerous and lived in many different kingdoms & settlements across Middle-earth. However, many of these kingdoms were destroyed during the wars against Morgoth, the first Dark Lord. During the Second Age, the population of Elves began to decline as many Elves left Middle-earth to sail to the Undying Lands, a paradise-like realm across the sea. This was largely due to the influence of the Valar, the angelic beings who created the world, who offered the Elves a chance to escape the sorrows and limitations of mortal life in Middle-earth. By the time of the Third Age, the population of Elves in Middle-earth had greatly diminished. Many of the great Elven kingdoms had fallen, & the remaining Elves had scattered across Middle-earth in small, isolated settlements. This was partly due to the wars of the First Age and the destruction of many Elven kingdoms, as well as the gradual decline of the Elves' power & influence in Middle-earth. Overall, the population of Elves in Middle-earth declined over time, with many Elves leaving for the Undying Lands & many others being killed in wars and other conflicts. By the end of the Third Age, the Elves' numbers had greatly diminished, & they were a shadow of their former glory in Middle-earth. It’s been their fight for ages alone before Men came along and many of them befriended Men from the very beginning. They share the same fights/The same histories etc! Let’s just say it used to be a few million so imagine what Galadriel & her husband have seen regarding experiencing their entire race that still dwelled upon middle earth nearly being wiped out into extinction…

You should read the letters of JRR Tolkien. He added a lot of clarifications which are not in the histories or the completed works. He said very clearly in one of his letters that the Avari do not leave, and cannot leave. When they refused the initial summons from the Valar the choice was irrevocable. I assume the choice also applied to their children. Only Eldar can leave, but Eldar includes those who set out to leave but changed their minds. Legolas can leave because he's an Eldar, even though he never stepped foot in Valinor. Most of the Mirkwood elves are Avari, but they have an Eldar ruling class. Thranduil can leave if he wants but there's nothing in the lore to indicate that he ever does. My guess is he has something to do with the Wild Hunt in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. To understand where Tolkien was going you have to also look at his sources of inspiration.

Wonderful video. Your voice, the art, the content. I've always felt that some small remnant of elven kind still exists in our world.

What I always found strange was Arwen. I understand her grief, yet she had children who would live much longer than other mortal men, and grandchildren, great grandchildren etc. seeing them grow and live would have been a blessing, and of course a curse watching them die. But still, I can’t imagine leaving my children if I had the opportunity to watch them grow and live.

There is an interesting line about Arwen's "green grave" so you wonder who buried her. My thought is that she went back to Lothlorien though it was abandoned because it was there that she met Aragorn and they "plighted their troth" Cirdan, by the way, was waiting to take the last of those who would go.

It is entirely safe to assume that at some point during his life Aragorn visited the Havens and met Cirdan, and in any event Aragorn would have news of the events in a realm that neighbored his, if for no other reason than on account of the Elves who passed through his realms on the way there.

People forget that the elves are immortal. Their bodies can be slain but that would just vault their souls into the halls of Mandos (uncertain on spelling), which is in the undying lands. So even after they diminished their souls would travel to the undying lands as, unlike men, they were tied to the world itself.

I’ve always imagined that Arwen at LEAST stuck around until her children passed away and become a super beloved queen of the restored kingdoms of Arnor//Gondor and the free peoples as she has the great ancestors of both Elves & Men alike, The Houses Of The Edain, The Sindar elves, Ñoldor Elves, Vanyar Elves & so on! This is also why I feel we’ve grown over the years to have many different hair colours like them. Gold Vanyar, White Sindar, Brown/Black hair for Ñoldor, and whichever clan had red hair too etc.

Thank you for this wonderful video! Your videos are becoming huge favourites of mine!

The last elf is probably a surfer bum in California or a New Age Traveller in Cornwall. "Yeah, I have funny ears. What of it?"

Nicely done Sir! You earned my subscription!

Excellent analysis. Thank you.

300th like here, this was a very interesting video. Well thought out and thought inducing.

Many Green and Sylvan Elves stayed in Middle Earth they have no connection to the High Elves who did indeed cross over to the sea.

Great video! I think though that you might have missed Arwen's reply to Aragorn when he stated the choices left to her after he would pass away: - "Nay dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the NUmenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scored them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar Say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." To me that indicates that Arwen believed that there was no actual prospect of her going to the Undying Lands now - perhaps Cirdan and the last of his kin had left by then. Any elves that might have remained were probably mostly from the Avari, who refused the initial summons. Legolas' group who settled Ithilien would have been largely Avari, since that was the population of his father's people in the Greenwood, a part of whom he took to Ithilien. I suspect these were among the very last elves in Middle Earth. There's also the unknown fate of Maglor, who threw his Silmaril into the sea when he could not hold it, and lingered by the shore for who knows how long? In the book, it stated he may have cast himself into the sea eventually, but he may not have done. But I think probably he would perish through weariness, a broken heart or a quenching of his spirit, much as his grandmother did on giving birth to his father.

Ive always imagined that Arwen waits until her son is well settled onto the throne and then leaves. Ive also imagined that Legolas and Gimli waited until after Aragorns death to pass into the west

Yeah just because the last ship sales doesn’t necessarily mean every last elf in ME was on board…

I don’t think Aragorn fully understood the doom of Arwen, and her brothers, that they had to leave with Elrond or accept the doom of men. That was cast at the end of the first age and start of the second, when the half eleven, (and part Maia), Elrond and Elros, had to chose humanity or eleven kind . I personally suspect the departure of the last of the Elves marked the end of the fourth age, along with the final disappearance of other thinking and speaking creatures like the Ents and Dwarves, leaving only humans, by which point, over many centuries, the descendants of Arwen and Aragon had multiplied and spread, until it was impossible for the line of Luthien and Beren to be destroyed, without it being an end of human kind too.

I always assumed some stayed and especially in places like Gondor and Arnor intermingled with the population

The images look stunning.

An interesting take, but I think it's incomplete in that it leaves out many of JRRT's writings from the History of Middle-Earth. There are intriguing "philosophical" writings on the nature of Elves. While never part of the works published in his lifetime, they do constitute the reams of thoughts going through his mind in the near 20 years of his life after publication of the LotR. Of especial note here is the "fact" that in mortal lands, sooner or later their Fëar (their spirit or soul) would burn out their physical bodies, leaving behind an insubstantial existence. Tolkien's way of segueing to the Fey, Sidhe, Fairies of later human stories, I can only presume. There is also, in the back of my mind - and I've been trying to find the quote again in the thousands of pages of HoME - something about Avari losing the right to go West! There was a cut-off, it seems, a veritable "you snooze, you lose"! How that would work when, while still corporeal, they could at worst physically end their lives and find themselves in the Halls of Mandos and thence be reborn? No idea! Perhaps it ended very sadly: losing their bodies, becoming pure Fëa, they could no longer physically die and so never even leave Middle-Earth. There was something about that turning them malicious and bitter, again linking to modern folk tales of the Unseelie? As for the short Last Ship: if we want to be nit-picky, Celeborn and Cirdan were not kings and were never referred to as such. So, who the 3 Elven kings were remains speculative. My reading of the brief story was always that it was focused on the fate of the mortal human stuck to remain rather than the literal "who" on that ship. How long did the Elven settlement in Ithilien last? That may be tied to how long the Elessarian Renaissance of the re-united Kingdom lasted: while agonisingly brief, we do get the impression that, unsurprisingly going by JRRT's Weltanschauung, a new shadow arrived far too soon, in the lifetime of Elessar's son or grand-son. As is typical of humans. In the blink of an eye for Elves. They may have carried on a bit longer after Legolas, but if Gondorian kids started playing at being Orcs and some new cult arising, they would have gone back to be beings of suspicion and fear. Legolas building his own boat and leaving from Belfalas may have just been convenience (or because Gimli was too old for a journey through Eregion) and continuing a tradition going back to Amroth's days. Fun speculation, though I've tried to stick to "I bloody *know* I read that, but it's all a jumble from the info overload that is HoME".

This was an excellent telling

Cirdan did not have golden hair. But was gray haired and bearded. One of the very first , perhaps THE first elf to awake

Great job!

Don't forget, it says in Appendix B of return of the king that Sam boarded the last ship after Rosie's death.

I like to think Maglor was still hovering around somewhere all Solitary playing his music even during the book times and after...

I believe the first born who remained in Middle Earth existed for some time, likely deep into the 4th age. Many would have experienced heartbreak, some reduced to near/madness and reduced in wisdom and heartiness. Yes, some would have built ships and sailed West. Others, I believe, passed to the Halls of Mandos as I believe did Arwen. Perhaps the firstborn who remained behind devolved into what our cultural stories became "cryptids," such as Leprechauns.

consider that Cirdan wouldn't allow Gimli to sail west thus Legolas said he would build his own ship and sail with Gimli

Very enjoyable!

Great video! Subscribed. Have to check out your other videos :) Maybe both versions are true. Maybe Legolas had to build his own ship, because some of the Elves of Ithilien decided to stay in Middle-earth and the others who wished to go to Aman had already left when Elessar passed away. And I can't remember if Tolkien said that the Avari were even aware that they would fade if they stayed in Middle-earth. Did they even now that? And what about Daeron, Elrohir and Elladan?

The video is great in many aspects, so thanks and congratulations :) Still, some Elves remained in Middle-earth (our world according to Tolkien) in later ages. But they lost their ancient greatness.

I would love to hear you do your own readings of the books 🧐🤩

I love listening LOTR lore in the background.

Whatever the reason or which elf clan they belong to, as stated in the prophecy of Mandos, the elves who choose to stay in Middle-earth are doomed to fade away faster than the rest of the Arda Marred.

Good job!

A very interesting video - thank you. The fires have called and I have answered. ;) But there is a question lingering in my mind, given all those uncertainties in Tolkiens work. Would it be feasible and 'wise'/acceptable to continue his work and expand the world of Middle-Earth with new stories, myths and histories? Not in the form of fan fiction, but in a way that these works would be considered as part of the canon?

I feel like a very quiet backdrop soundtrack would make these more soothing to listen to.

Thank you for keeping Middle Earth alive🤗🥰🌎

That’s the greatest image of Arwen I’ve EVER seen.

Solid presentation, I liked your video. However it has a few small errors which compound as you analyse and come to your conclusions. 1. There is no singular 'Last Ship' except by happenstance. Any ship built to make the one way journey to Valinor is called a Last Ship. The finality is based on the nature of the journey, not the order of departure. There logically would indeed be a last-to-depart Last Ship, probably crewed by 'rustic elves' in a latter age. It's import might not even be remarked upon in Valionr at its arrival if other elves yet lingered and never made the journey, 2. Elves do not have any urge to remain in Middle Earth per se, they have instead a lack of urge to depart for Valinor, cultivated by living deep inland in isolated and semi-wild places. The urge is triggered by proximity to the sea. Whether the western ocean triggers this or any sea is uncertain. When Galadriel sent tidings to the Fellowship she included a warning to Legolas to avoid the shores, or the sound of gulls. Legolas had to risk this by following Aragorn to confront the Corsairs. Since that time he was doomed to leave Middle Earth, but remained while Ellesar was alive. It is likely that Gimli also grounded him enough to dampen the call. For the record the grey ship Legolas made which he used to Gimli to travel to Valinor is a Last Ship. 3. Cirdan left with Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf as ring bearers of the three Elven Rings. So his departure was early in King Elessar's reign. This Last Ship was the Ringbearers ship and was an important portent. It should be noted that Cirdan dwelt in the Grey Havens for many millenia. How did he achieve this? By building the Last Ship he was to depart on slowly over the course of centuries. He worked on it to keep the hunger of departure at bay and keep his peace, yet tarried so he could remain in Middle Earth. So. Cirdan, a ringbearer, did not depart with Thranduil. The Last Ship poem most likely refers to the Ringbearers Last Ship. Perhaps the most important of its kind due to its significance in Valinor and to us as it is the ship Merry and Pippin saw depart. The three crowned heads are Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel. However this is conjecture and it is possible that it refers to another Last Ship carrying royalty. Perhaps Thranduil's ship, perhaps an earlier ship built when the exile of the Noldor ended after the war of Wrath.

Some or many stayed I think. Cirdan, I think deserves a vacation in Valinor.

If memory serves, all those elves that witnessed the trees in Valinor, along with their descendants, had the light of creation in them and would hear the call of the sea and leave for Valinor, while those that chose to stay in Middle Earth did not.

Cirdan the Inept if he built a ship with the sail behind the shrouds and backstays. 1.42

Nice video, It's a sa d thought that all Elves departed although the offspring of the elf/man unions remained but this sadness runs through all Tolkien's tales concerning Middle Earth. One small criticism and it is a very small one, Cirdan ought to be pronounced with the letter R trilled. This isn't normal for an Englishman I know but Tolkien would have liked it that way. If you listen to interviews with him he nearly always did that.

Thanks!

A lot of ghost and phantoms we feel today are probably faded elves that stayed middle earth

Thanks so much

"The Last Ship" was, Tolkien told us, a tale of Firiel, a woman who was a long-ago ancestor of Aragorn. I have always read it as noting a change in the departure point for the Elves sailing to Valinor -- the ships to the West no longer sailed "down the seven rivers", but rather thereafter set off from the Grey Havens, under the watchful eye of Cirdan. Who the three kings were, I have no idea; although your interpretation is an interesting one. Perhaps the poem is one that blends history with prediction? The fact remains that the poem was ancient before the Ring was destroyed.

That quote about Elves living during the time of the kings refers to the Kings or Arnor and Gondor earlier in the third age.

I think the three elven lords in the poem did not include Thranduil, because i cant picture him giving up his kingdom in his pride. But cant imagine who else it may be. Glorfindel, maybe? I dont think JRRt specified when he returned.

I like to think that many magical beings that were left slowy disappeared throughout Middle Earth after the last ship left for Valinor. These beings, including Elves, Dwarves, Fairies and Gnomes, were sometimes spotted by the Celts and other groups of people, and inspired the fairytales of Europe and England.

Nowadays one cannot trust anything digital being free from AI anymore. But if this is your real voice, it it beautiful and I could listen to it night and day.

I agree with your conclusion: that after the departure of Celeborn, Thranduil, Cirdan, and Legolas, in FA 120, it seems likely that several thousand Silvan elves remained in Ithilien, Lindon, the Falas, and in Thranduil's lands in northern Mirkwood. Another aspect of Middle Earth that we have no knowledge of, is the overall distribution of Elven-kind in the first centuries after their awakening at Cuiviénen. This place was in the far east, on the inland Sea of Helcar, and who's to say that all of the Avari migrated westward toward Eriador and Beleriand? Might some groups of Avari headed south, and ended up in Far Harad, or further East, along the east coast of the continent, far, far beyond the limits of any maps held in Gondor, Numenor, or Imladris? As mentioned in other sources, Allatar and Pallando never returned to report on their journeys into the far east and south, and who can say what they might have discovered about the people they met? Tolkien limited his stories to the areas mapped in LOTR and The Silmarillion, and after the War of Wrath, much of the world was radically altered - the maps in The Silmarillion no longer applied (Beleriand was mostly inundated), and after the Akallabeth, the world was not even flat - it was now a sphere and the Undying Lands were completely removed to a different plane of existance. Tolkien made it clear in his later writings that "the world" is "our" world, which implies that The Shire, Gondor, Rohan, Rhovanion, and Rhun are all on the Eurasian continent. Far Harad is probably Africa, and somewhere far to the west of the Grey Havens, lie the lands that would one day be known as the Americas, while seven thousand miles to the east of The Shire, one would come to the western coast of the Pacific Ocean in China and the Russian Far East. Could it be that groups of the Avari ended up there, completely beyond the scope of even the furthest known travels of anyone we know of from LOTR and The Silmarillion, except possibly Alatar and Pallando (and Ulmo, of course, the Lord of all waters in Arda). Could there have been Elves in the America's, blown there by storms in ships sailing from Middle Earth after the Akallabeth? Tolkien never expanded his writing to explore such possibilities, but he did state in his letters that Middle Earth is on "our" planet Earth, just very far removed from us in the remote past. So it's not impossible that "in-universe", Elves could have migrated to all of the Eurasian landmass, Africa, and possibly the Americas. Those Elves would likely have been completely unaware of the War of the Ring and the downfall of Sauron, and simply gone on about their lives. And who's to deny the possibility that some of the Entwives might still survive in some forest in the Far East; I'd like to think so. Tolkien never specifies "how many" ships per year Cirdan was building, or "how many" individual elves were departing during the last years of the third age and the first century of the fourth. But I have read somewhere that when Cirdan built the Last Ship, he was aware, either through his own senses, or perhaps as a intuition granted him by the Valar, that all of the elves who wished to move to the Undying Lands would be aboard when the time came for departure, and that he would not need to worry that he would leave anyone behind.

Where do these illustrations come from? They are amazing.

I'm late to the show, sadly. I was distracted by some Elven friends in whose compa'ny time passes... well, oddly. So I can confirm, they're are still here. And they're pretty nice guys.

I recall the tools of Cirdan were left at Grey Havens so that other elves could use them to build their ships that could go to the Undying Lands. The Sylvan/Sinda Elves had never seen the lands of the Valinor and were not as inclined to go as the Noldo and so, at least according to the Tolkien Bestiary, the remained and faded into myth. Kinda makes sense. But not sure about the canonical nature of that book. 🤷‍♂️

I learned a lot

CIrdan wasnt a "king"; if it was 3 kings it was probably Celeborn who according to the appendices stayed behind for quite awhile after Galadriel left

Firstly and importantly all children of the union of a half elf and human are half elves, they have the choice to become mortal or remain an immortal elf and all that comes with that including the right to travel to Valinor. Arwen was a Half Elven as her father Elrond was a Half Elf who had chosen to be an Elf his brother Elros had chosen mortality and was the first king of Numenor. Even if the Half Elf parent has chosen mortality his or her children are born with the choice that is awarded to all Half Elves and all their descendants. So all of Arwen and Aragorns children will be Half Elven and we know they had three daughters and one son, so four half elves are living in the fourth age and if they choose as Elrond did they will be immortal and can go to Valinor, we have no imformation on this though. Also this applies to all the children of these four and their children and on. So technically we can be confident in saying there will certainly be Elves in Middle Earth who can go to Valinor as long as the line of Arwen and Aragorn continues. Many would have stayed, the 'Moriquendi' was a term used by the Elves to describe those who had never seen the light of Valinor, ie never been there. This included the Sindar and Nandor these groups were huge races of the Elves not just a few, they did not feel the pull of the sea in the way Elves from other groups did. For example the wood Elves ruled by Thranduil were Sindar although Thranduil himself was Sindarin. We know that in the fourth age Thranduil and Celeborn cleansed Mirkwood of evil, returning it to Greenwood and they lived peacefully for many years. We know Celeborn went to Valinor and Lothlorien was empty when Arwen went there on Aragorns death but know nothing of Thranduils people. Legolas eventually did sail to Valinor with Gimli and Tolkien heavily hints Sam did too after Rosie died. So 'The Last Ship' isn't literal, but refers to the last ship taking the specific group of Elves with important leaders and characters at the end of the 3rd age. There was no restriction on any Elf building a ship and going to Valinor at any time so we can be sure Elves stayed in Middle Earth for many thousands of years. The only reasons Elves left for Valinor is they felt a strong pull to do so, they got sad and depressed from the continual cycle of birth and death in ME and could die from sadness (and then they go to the Halls of Mandos and eventually end up back in Valinor) or they fade. This means there bodies finally were almost burnt out by their spirits or 'Thea' if the didn't return to Valinor but this takes many, many years - we're talking thousands. Cirdan was between eight and ten thousand years old, we also know a Valian year is about 10 solar or human years, so we're talking a long long time. The One Ring enabled Galadriels, Elronds and Gandalfs ring to much lessen the sadness Elves could experience in ME, particularly Galdriels - it enabled her to make wherever she lived, ie Loth Lorien much like Valinor. So this power was removed when the one ring was destroyed, so that was a big reason many elves left at this time. But again the Wood Elves etc never lived under the power of any rings of power, they had no experience of life like this or life in Valinor. Basically we can be sure Elves continued to live in Middle Earth for thousands more years but steadily declining in numbers. Some would have sailed away to Valinor, those who did not get depressed or feel a pull would live for thousands of years until they faded. So there could still be pockets of Elves living secretly on Earth today, and some faded Elves too. But we can certainly be sure Elves were still around throughout the Fourth Age, and ages following that right up to today just in smaller and smaller numbers - but this was gradual particularly in the eyes of men whose lives were a blink of an eyes compared to Elves. Also the whole entire point of the existence of Elves as designed by Eru Ilivatar (the god in Tolkiens mythology of ME) was to make ME ready for Men to take over and live in - we clearly need help today in doing that as weve managed to make a complete mess of it!

❤❤❤popr frumos intelegent si elegant

Also gotta ask what “percent” of elven blood did Prince Imrahel have? I have been thinking about this for a long time. Since there are only 3 recognized unions of high elves and mankind, where did this other population come from?

What about the sons of Elrond? I know they stayed after their father left but was under the impression they planned to go to Valinor eventually.

When finally the fea, the spirit, of elves that remained overcomed their hroa, the body, they lost their autonomy, and become directly subservient to the Valar. Then the Valar just whispered "Come".

I have a story for you similar to the Gandalf vs Smaug one that you are welcome to add graphics to like you did here with these videos. ❤

Elves have pain in their hearts. Maybe the reason why some stayed and some set sail to Valinor.

Can I ask why this didn't make mention of Elledan and Elrohir? There is a line in LOTR that says of the possibility of them leaving "of that journey, no tale tells". I am probably wrong, but I always took that to mean they were among those that stayed and either died or diminished.

This was a lovely episode. I especially appreciated the only time I have seen nearly *all* the representations of the elves *without* those infernal pointed ears. Can someone *please* confirm with me that, nowhere in the entire world of Arda, has there ever been word of any of Ilúvatar's children having pointed ears (including hobbits and dwarves). I'm pretty sure that it continues in paintings and artistic representations only as a trope. Am I wrong?

Hence, legends and stories of diminished Elvenkind came down to the time of Tolkien himself...

You'd think Arwen would have gone straight to the undying lands. There her grief would cease to exist.

I like the artwork on these videos. How does he do it?

I never could understand why Tolkien said both that Arwen couldn't change her mind because there was no boat to take her and that Legolas made his own boat. Arwen was way older than Legolas, she would probably have the knowledge to be able to make a boat, or could find it, if she wanted to. She wouldn't have, because she'd made her choice. I just don't understand why Tolkien wrote it that way. Why not just emphasize that she stuck with her choice and did not change her mind?

Imladris, home of Elrond and his sons, Elladan and Elrohir seems to have been missed. Plus Glorfindel would also be staying there beyond the departure of Elrond, then Celeborn.

If the Elven lords left, that means either they abandoned their people, or the people were already gone.

I would suggest that the reason that Legolas built his own ship, was to not to risk the wrath of the Valar, on his people, should his life-friend Gimli, not be accepted into the Undying Lands. He would only be risking his own and Gimli's lives and not those of the people he led in Ithilien.

Wasn't the straight road reserved only for the Elves that saw the light of the trees, including the Sindar? But the Green elves and the refusers never settled in Beleriand, and thus never saw the light, even in the twilight. This would mean, that while the road is open to them, they would never feel the call. Nor long for something they never had to begin with. This would translate to these elves eventually becoming the fey spirits of old, that Tolkien associated with tree and bush, spring and lake. And they eventually faded into oblivion, becoming more spirits and memories then actual living matter.

At least one elf would definitely remain...Maglor was not allowed to return after the Oath and the Doom of Mandos. He supposedly still wanders the shores or the world lamenting what happened.

Is there any info about what happened to Arwen's 2 brothers that stayed in MiddleEarth?

One thing that has always bugged me: The children of Elrond Halfelven were supposed to leave Middle-Earth when he did or stay there forever. That is why Arwen was "condemned" to remain even after Aragorn died. But we are told (in the introduction) that Elrond's sons "long remained" at Rivendell. So did they die or fade or were they allowed to leave?