I am a fifth generation descendent of John D Lee. I was aware of mountain meadows as a teen as the book was in our house. My dad said it was controversial and the church denies it. This was in the 90s. I appreciate hearing more of the story and I apologize for the things my ancestors have done.

My ancestors were part of the wagon train that set out from Arkansas, the Harps and Francis Marion Poteet. Several small trains, including the Harps, decided to split off and continue on their original planned northern route. It is not known why the Harp party decided to break off from the Baker-Francher train, but it was certainly a good decision. Instead of being massacred, they continued on to California and lived a prosperous life....and I was born..

One of the best books I've read this year. Should be mandatory reading by every high school student in Utah. Richard and Barbara left no stone unturned and delivered an intellectually honest account of post MMM events.

Thanks for the great show on an important and fascinating subject. I noticed one comment from RFM in the live chat that scratched an itch that I was feeling when the topic of Brigham Young's role in encouraging cattle raids came up. RFM said: "Brigham ordered the stealing of cattle. He is criminally liable for any murders committed by the robbers." RFM's comment reminded me that the thing called the "felony murder rule" exists...something that I learned about a long time ago, which applies in many common-law jurisdictions and, IIRC, provides basically that all knowing participants in an inherently dangerous criminal activity (one in which death can be foreseen as a possible consequence one way or another -- something that would be foreseeable as a possibility when stealing cattle from people who may be inclined to not want their cattle stolen) can be charged with murder, even if they were not at the scene (including co-conspirators and accomplices). Cattle raids being encouraged by the top crime boss in Utah (aka, the Prophet Brigham Young) in communications to minions would seem to fall into that category. In such a case, even if Brigham Young expressly wanted them to avoid the spilling of blood when carrying out their cattle raids, he would still be criminally responsible for the deaths (murders) that occurred in the course of carrying out the raids.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”-Voltaire

My husband is a decendant of John D Lee. His family left the church a couple generations ago and my husband always heard it was because Brigham Young executed his great great grandfather. He had no idea why until I looked it up. Neither of us knew of the massacre and we live in a very Mormon area. Sobering.

Expressing regrets is not the same as apologizing

It is so interesting hearing about the decendants of the perpetrators discovery and feelings! I am from Germany, here most people in my generation assume as the default, that their ancestors were standing on the wrong side of two world wars and many committed horrific crimes. While looking back, we can also understand how they lived in a culture enabling it and that all humans are nuanced. Americans, Mormons or not, often just seem to assume that their ancestors were "good people", not focusing on the indigenous genocide, slavery and other crimes in US history.

I grew up in the church and never learned about this. This makes my heart ache. Its infuriating that this was and continues to be buried

Major Carleton's report from the massacre scene broke my shelf.

As a Black man, I get the same sick angry feelings when I think of the massacre and the strange fruit that use to hang from southern trees. The complete extent of the situation has been covered up. Thank you for this book.

As a combat Marine of the Vietnam War I relate to PTSD symptoms described by BJB! I am having a difficult time putting this book down. For far too long I have felt drawn to the sacred ground of Mountain Meadows, but have not been able to visit. I plan to visit during spring 2024. Thank you, Barbara!

Barbara is such a great storyteller. Heard of the MMM but never knew the details. Extremely interesting and great podcast. Thank you.

My husband is a descendant of the children who survived the massacre.

Love her story, love this podcast, and I came from a non religious family. Shocking for me to learn about mormonism . But every podcast fascinates me.

I’m a Southern Utahn whose Pioneer ancestory has a legend that was passed down from my Great Grandmother to Grandfather to me. The story goes that our great great great grandfather must have been somehow involved in the massacre because according to my GGma when her mother was a little girl she heard crying out in the barn. When she checked it out there were a bunch of children inside. I don’t know how it came to be understood that these were kids from the massacre but that’s the legend. I was too young when this story was told to me to ask more questions because I was just so stunned. My Grandfather has since passed and I have no way to get more info about it so it remains a legend. But I’ve been obsessed with this part of our history ever since and cannot wait to listen more and read this book!

My history teacher in St George was fired because he taught us about the mountain meadows massacre in 1963.

I found out a few years ago that my ancestors were among the perpetrators. None of my living (LDS) relatives knew about it until I told them. I wrote a letter of apology and left it at the memorial.

I'm exmo but very into genealogy and church history. This story broke my heart. My ancestors were in the area and one of my direct ancestors was part of the militia. I also found out that they took in one of the children after the massacre. It's horrible. I'm going to read her books.

Barbara Brown needs to do a book on the Bear River Massacre and what role the church played in it. Porter Rockwell was a scout for the Army that killed 450 Shoshone.

Finding a “replacement” for rituals seems redundant. Im happy to be free of most of them. My life is so much more simple now. Peace in just being “present”.

I worked for the Paiute Tribe from 2008-2011. They are still upset to this day that the Church blamed them for the massacre. The church needs to issue an official apology to them. I know when I worked there, the descendants always stopped by to look at the Paiute history records. Also John you need to do an episode on the how the Church treated the Natives in the region. Bear River Massacre (Porter Rockwell was a scout), Circleville Massacre, Kanosh Massacre etc........

I love that this women knows that reconciliation begins after the apology and doesn’t end with an apology. it’s just the start.

These books were hard reading, there is no excusing what happened. So sad to see that real justice was only experienced by one perpertrator. This is what happens when you live under a theocracy, and it's not that much different today.

Thank you for this very informative program....looking foward to parts two and three. Thankful, too, for the live chat that helped us feel connected together in our pain for all of the wagon train victims. The truth hurts but we have to know in order to be better.

One of the very best podcasts on MMM! Barbara, John, and Rebecca - thank you for the balanced reporting on this significant event in history, and for all of the work and research! Just purchased "Vengence is Mine".

One of my largest points of contention with the church having been raised in it since birth is that I didn't hear not a murmer about it at any point from the church. I felt like it was something that most of the people i went to church with were completely unaware and I would venture to say that to this day a large number of church members are unaware.. It was clear to me that if the church could get away with never having to talk about it or acknowledge it =if the perpetrators were correct that all of the spared children were to young to have any recollection and the efforts to maintain the mums the word in the valley were successful the church would be OK with it disappearing into history. In other words they only acknowledge it and have gotten involved in preservation under pressure and not because they are interested in full disclosure and acknowledging even the not so rosey aspects of its history because it's the right thing to do. If the church could have gotten away with it the descendants of the victims would not have received any sort of apology or recognition. They never claimed that anyone ever received revelation or inspiration that they needed to shine light on it and own it because it was the right thing to do. Also as mentioned in this episode there has been efforts to downplay or excuse or provide kind of justification or shift blame... Not sure if I am articulating this properly but the churches motivations and efforts to be transparent are not pure at heart and of their own free will

I'm going to have to come back and finish this episode because got so intrigued that I picked up the audiobook and haven't been able to stop listening!

Fascinating interview about something I knew nothing about. The book "Vengeance is Mine" sounds like a MUST READ! and I am so glad that it is on audible (just now downloaded it) as I often "read" books while driving or doing chores around the house.

Thank you for presenting your book the way you did. Your statement of read it and draw your own conclusions shows your a true historian that cares about truth and not pushing personal judgements. Such a sad event.

What a fascinating sad story of American history. Excellent interview!

Is she going to talk about how many documents and diaries were destroyed? At the express order of Brigham Young.

Thank you Barbara! This helped me understand the details of the MMM. I once asked a 7th grade Utah History teacher why this isn’t taught in the curriculum? He said he didn’t know or understand much about it. He was LDS. So important that we know our history both the good and bad.

With respect to Brigham Young's role. In 1859, the Army's investigator, a Captain, interviewed two Paiute Indian chiefs when the Army sent him to Mountain Meadows. Both chiefs told him they received letters from Brigham Young to kill the Fancher group. One of the chiefs identified the letter carrier BY NAME. Any letter written after that that was attributed to Young instructing Mormons to let the Fancher party through unmolested is subterfuge to achieve plausible deniability. Young's inaction after the massacre illustrates his culpability just as much. The Fancher Party's possessions were confiscated by various Mormons, as was their money and their surviving children. No effort was made to repatriate possessions to the families of those killed. Seventeen children were kept by the Mormons for TWO years without any attempt to return them to their families. Young made no attempt as Territorial Governor to pursue justice, when he KNEW 120+ settlers were murdered AND that Mormons had taken part. After TWO years, skeletal remains were still strewn all around the massacre site, with virtually NO effort made to offer them a decent burial. It was the Army unit that came in 1859 that buried the majority of the remains and constructed the first monument to them. Young's Mormon had two years to do so and did nothing. John D. Lee was Young's sacrificial lamb and the ONLY Mormon participant (of an estimated 5-7 dozen) ever punished - when he was killed by firing squad in 1877. History can be read by what is absent just as much as by that which is present. Brigham Young's lack of moral action post-massacre points very much to his active participation in directing the massacre just as if there was a letter to Lee or Haight instructing them to kill the Fancher Party. Haight's and others' crocodile tears were THEIR effort to deflect responsibility. And the wholesale reluctance of the Mormon populace to identify others who participated is yet another indicator of Young's role in whitewashing history all the way down to the present as the LDS church continues to deny the real scope of Young's involvement . First, they blamed the Paiutes exclusively. Next they suggested only a few rogue Mormons were involved. When the Army Captain counted remains of 120+ settlers, he could not find a single skull that did not have a bullet hole in it. The Paiutes had almost NO firearms (3-5 at the time of the massacre). This means that Mormons were the ones holding the guns that executed the Fancher settlers. To conclude anything else is to place oneself in poppycock denial.

Interesting interview as always. I hope the live chat will be preserved for replay as I missed so many thoughtful discussions! Barbra seems to be a very smart person, but the complete confidence in her face & voice when she said she knows the church gave her 100% of the documents was a huge red flag for me. Sad to hear about the drop in funding. The nonprofit I work for (Between the Pages/Camp Half-Blood Austin) is also struggling to meet our fundraising goals to stay afloat. I wonder if there is a public shift against groups antithetical to Christianity! Or maybe everyone is in my current situation, penny pinching just for rent! Either way, love the work you do!

My LDS Story. I joined the church in 2019 (19yo) and left a few days ago. How can you be persuaded by LDS as a young person in the 21st century? I live in Poland, where there are 2,000 total church members. We have no temple, school or even whole families in the church, there is no mormon culture at all. Even in the largest commune in Poland, there are mainly people from abroad who are temporarily in Poland. There was ONE entire Polish family in our city. Their daughter is the only Polish woman older than me who was born in the church. I also know ONE Polish boy who was on a mission and studied at BYU. In Poland, it's just an ordinary church you go to on Sunday and from time to time there are other activities, e.g. sports on Saturday. The application and library in Polish is very limited. In 2019, there wasn't even the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrines and Covenants. No one told us that these were sacred, important books. We don't read this at all. When you enter the name of the church in Google, only sources about the FLDS will appear in Polish and maybe one article about there being some missionaries in our country. There are no accounts on sm of church members or ex members because they do not exist. Nobody cares about Mormons in Poland. bigger problem is Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. So yeah really peacefully life. I have heard some "scary" stories from ex-members abroad, but such stories can be found about every church. Btw It's funny, because I have never understood how one could become a Jehovah's Witness, it's a strange cult! But when I started watching your podcast or zelph on the shelf, cult to consciousness etc, I was like: are we and Jehovah's witnesses twins??? LDS in Utah and in Poland are two different churches! Poland is Catholic and conservative country. In the Catholic church there is confession, you have to pay for everything, there is a pope, so many things ins lds did not seem strange to me. What's more! In the Catholic Church, you cannot baptize a trans person and the greatest sin is using a condom and the contraceptive pill. Hormonal contraception is a "mini abortion" and it is difficult to obtain forgiveness of sins, so LDS seemed progressive compared to our law and church. That's why it was easy for me to become a member of the church, because it was nice, liberal and there were many things I simply didn't know and we still don't know because they don't exist here.

One of my earliest exposures to information on the MMM was reading about it in "Wife No. 19" (by Ann Eliza Webb Young). I recall that she put considerable emphasis on the story of Parley P. Pratt being gunned down in Arkansas as a primary motivator. In light of this discussion with Barbara, I would tend to believe that Ann Eliza was in that part of her book relying heavily on the reporting in California that Barbara mentioned. What Barbara says makes a lot of sense. It would be quite odd to think that a bunch of Mormons (however zealous and religiously deluded) in southern Utah would think that it was okay to massacre over a hundred men, women and children just because they were from Arkansas and there were rumors that they may have had some very loose connection to Pratt's killer. For one thing, TBH, I doubt that Parley P. Pratt was THAT popular and beloved. For another thing, a lot of the perpetrators likely wouldn't have been so dumb that they wouldn't have asked the obvious questions: "How do we know that they really had any connection to Parley's death?" and "Among all these people, how likely is it that all or even most of them would have had any significant responsibility for Parley's death?" Historically, it makes more sense that it was a cattle raid designed to be blamed on the "Indians" that went FUBAR when it became clear to the victims that the Mormons were in charge of it, so the Mormons prioritized damage control and cover-up actions (at least what they thought would be damage control) over basic decency, morality and any hesitation about becoming cold-blooded murderers. Interestingly (at least to me), I also recall that Ann Eliza mentioned how many people in SLC were quite aware of the MMM even to the point of recognizing horses being used in the city that were known to have belonged to the MMM victims.

Incredible story! Thank you.

My Great Grandfather came with the Martin Hancart Company as a teen. I was told he was the 1st Telgrapher in the Territory. Brigham Young dispatched him to Witness and Report by Telgraph the Execution of John D. Lee. My Father told me there were 2 pictures hanging in his home in Panguitch as a boy. The President of the United States (I think it was Harding) and the Picture of the Execution of John D. Lee. My Father told me that his Grandfather (the Telegrapher) told him that he "witnessed the Execution of John D. Lee. He was killed for being the Liar and Murder he was."

I consumed these two books. Wow! Thank you for bringing this topic up!

Thank you for all of your work. I am a descendant of Charles Hopkins, one of the members of the group who attacked and killed these people. I was also taught how great my pioneer ancestors were and did not know about this until I was an adult. I cried when I listened to this interview. I am ashamed to be related to this incident, but we must be honest about what happened and not try to hide it.

My many great grandfather's was John D Lee, I grew up with the tale that he was chosen by God to protect the church and his death would help end the persecutions of the church. I was told to be proud of being related to him, because he sacrificed him self for the whole. And also that because of execution his name would forever be tarnished on earth; but venerated in Heaven as God and the prophets knew the truth. But, my Grandmother (my father's mother, her maiden name was Lee) told me that growing up in Utah, sometimes members of the church would mistreat her for His actions. That did not scream 'he did something to protect the whole' , it also seemed to me to go against the articals of faith. The one about being accountable for our sins, and not Adams transgressions It's part of what cracked the illusion that the church was true. There are a lot of stories that have been warped to fit that church's narrative.

I’m not a Mormon but I think it’s so important to face the history of our country. We need to know how we all got here and why.

I may have missed it, however it seems that the Native Americans were also victimized and demonized. The whole thing is sad and disgusting. There was a movie made for TV a few years back and it laid blame on Brigham Young.

Brigham may not have ordered the massacre but he was without a doubt guilty. It was the culture that he fostered.

I just learned that one of my ancestors, John Menzies MacFarlane, was a part of the militia. I'm devastated!

wasn’t avenging joseph smith part of the temple ceremony?

I feel like the Church stopped at simply acknowledging the role of church members in this. Of the multiple points of failure that led to MMM, the one that most concerns me is the literal boots on the ground men who knew better, swallowed their consciences, and perpetrated the massacre. Absolute loyalty is still something the Church demands of its members, and it still results in hurting people.

Sitting in the MMM National Historic Landmark parking lot listening to this podcast again. 26 degrees, nobody else here.

I’m astonished that she didn’t know of the massacre while growing up. A lot of my family from a great uncle are mormon as was many of my classmates. I grew up in western Montana. We weren’t taught the story in school but passed it around.

Simply heartbreaking

So sad. I'm glad she put in details. Details are the teacher's. Details make us uncomfortable, which hopefully we'll lead us to change.

As an Indigenous person this is my fav mormon stories ever

I like the beard John. Looks great. Thank you for always bringing people on to tell the truth of history no matter it is.

Brigham young is my 3rd great grandpa. I used to think it was really cool and was proud when it came up at church. I grew up on capital hill right by the lion house and had apostles in my ward so it kinda cemented how lucky i was to be descendant. Man there is SOOO much i dont know. i would love to be pointed in the right direction for some books/articles or podcasts that can help me learn more about gramps.. his true history without the puff and bullshit.

Years ago i read Under the banner of heaven. So meticulously describes this . Insane!!!!! A very amazing author. I dont feel the need to watch the hillywood version but i kept my eye on the movie rights. Ron Howard sat on the movie rights firs many many years. This part of the book blew my mind.

I'm a standup comedian (never mormon),every time I'm perform at Cafe, library or comedy night in Utah someone ask me if I know about the Mountain Meadow massacre, Interesting, now I do.

Question: A similar incident happened to pioneer settlers headed West in the vicinity of American Falls Idaho. The massacre has become known as the City of Rocks massacre and was blamed on the Shoshone Indians. Does Barbara Brown have any information as to the veracity of this massacre? Who was responsible and why?

Well I'm not a Mormon but some of my best friends are lol... And I wish I could send you money but poverty has struck ... But I love all of you ... Have learned so much about high demand religions... I'm. 2 time cult survivor and you all have bn so helpful in my journey... Also John ...I love your wife so much and can't remember her name ... Deepest RESPECT

I wish I had a copy of that book whilst working on my censorship within mormonism paper. While I had a limited amount of resources, I did find a record from the Library of Congress on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I first heard about this in the mid 80's on PBS they never (that i remember) gave any "why" it happened, i just figured it was from the channel 7 PBS (U of U) not the channel 11 PBS (BYU) was the only reason it got out, i was in Austin Texas when I saw it.

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

Has the LDS formally apologized or provided monetary compensation to the relatives?

When I was young, I recall the church denying that it even happened, and that if it did happen, it was just committed by native americans. The fact the church is owning up to it is at least some progress.... though I do expect this is more to do with the fact that with the internet, they're losing control of the narrative, and less because of any real remorse

When I hear blood atonement being discussed, the Lafferty Brothers come to mind 😢

My grandma had her jet black hair till her death at age 86 (she had a few silver strands maybe qr strands throughout no concentration at temples just random)

Brigham young either knew or was complicit. He had the ability to act and punish Lee and the others immediately and he didn't. They blamed local natives, blamed the government, blamed to wagon train. As I said, the leadership knew or was complicit

Blood atonement wasn't just for murder or adultery. Brigham Young, Jedidiah M. Grant and others listed far less crimes, such as stealing horses, as needing blood atonement for perpetrators.

I just got it and I'm Excited to listen to it

Amazing session and so intense! Helped me so much! I’m getting the book!Thank you!🤍

Both of the Turley books are part of the cover-up. It is the church's attempt to fight Bagley's book and they have spent millions of dollars doing it. Also, the church has a special relationship with Oxford books. Oxford basically publishes some of the church's apologetics.

I know personally the man who made the beautiful wood box especially made for internment of bones for the victims that the Church commissioned in 2007.

When are the missionaries gonna teach this to investigators? I'm not serious. I know the missionaries would only be sent out to teach the polished, fantasized, cartoonishly sweet version of the revised history of the Mormon church the church wants out there. Basically, lies lies lies. That's what I now know the missionaries taught to me, and what I then taught on my mission. I had no idea of any of this Mountain Meadow stuff on my mission, and didn't hear about it until after I had left the church. It is clear that the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, including because the church has bought all that land around where it happened to preserve it. I wonder how many bones are in that burial pit they made surrounded by rocks. There are so many sick and disgusting things in the history of the church. When you think you've heard it all... there is more to learn. Sex trafficking, human trafficking, rapes, pedophelia, ephebophilia, blood oath stuff, protecting child molesters, global grifting, hiding tens of billions from the government, continual and neverending deception, etc. Sorry I joined the church, and went on a mission to bring in more tithe payers living under the deception that any of it is true. Thank you for this episode.

Just bought the book !

I must admit as you describe this, I wonder whether BY hadn't heard something on the grapevine about what happened and made sure the historian was there to witness it, to force the lie cover up to be done by someone else close to it, so as he could feel he wasn't involved... despite we know from his reaction, BY did feel responsible....

Is Barbara a member of the church? And why wasn't this mentioned?

I want any news on ruby and Jodie glad they still locked up ♥️🇬🇧

Very informative episode, and clearly, well researched.

If you can be talked into believing absurdities, you can be talked into committing atrocities.

Thanks

44:30 Is there any Mormon story that doesn't involve polygamy, young girls or familial relations?

I have letters from my 4th great-grandfather who was there. He cleaned the scene

Let's just acknowledge the fact that this live podcast is exactly 2:00:00 in lenght. Who ever produced this I am awestruck and humbled by such dedication to meaningless detail. 😃

Diggin the new look

There needs to be a wider scope of what all was going on at that time and that includes the Parley Pratt connection . How would it make any sense that Joseph Smith was killed by that wagon train when he died in 1844 and Mountain Meadow massacre was on 9/11 / 1857 ?

Commenting to help.

Always fun to see who is in my family tree. I have the Smith family and the Romney line in mine. Only thing I enjoyed from being a member. Not an active one anymore.

Bought the audio book. I had heard about the tradegy but not in depth. All history is imporant.

My 3x great grandpa is John D Lee and there’s still a lot of controversy in the family about what to think about him and the massacre in general. Excited to get some facts straight. Edit: ancestry is through Rachel Andora Lee for my relative homies I’m seeing here in the comments.

🤔 intersecting thing I've learned studying history is that people can be presented with the same facts and yet their thoughts, biases etc almost can't help being reflected in their final analysis. Although interesting, we have differing conclusions regarding Brigham Young and others involvement. Very sad incident and my heart goes out to all who suffered this tragic event.

My deceased wife was a direct descendant of John Lee. Her branch of the family said that he was the best of men. Her branch of the John D. Lee was totally homeless, living in a cave in the aftermath. My wife read the book that came out 15 years ago. She was significantly disappointed in her ancestor after reading the book. She did not like Lee's poor character that he manifested in years prior to the massacre. She felt that he was a wannabe hero of the LDS movement.

Sorry but in my case my ancestors were friends with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It’s interesting to me to read their journals from Davis County and Cedar City from this time period. I am part of the Haight family. Those journals give me a broader perspective. A couple of months ago Isaac Haights body was reburied in Cedar City

The story keeps changing, everytime eye look it up. Have you seen the netflix series godless?

I am remembering President Hinkley placing or ribbon cutting a monument at MMM…

Did she mention the name "Philo Farnsworth"? Quite interesting.

I have some BIG information on the mountain meadow massacre. It has to do with family actually I would . I would love to share with you

I am grateful for Forgiveness I am grateful for change Everybody is responsible for their own action, if something happens to someone and they are apart of the church, it doesn't mean the church was at fault the person made that choice. Bad things happen all over the world to not just with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints. Remember there are still a lot of good people in the church, who are truly innocent and there are good innocent people outside of the church. Everyone will be judge accordingly to their thoughts and actions on the last day.

Good morning 😂 happy hopeful ☺️ blessings 🙌 🙏 Saturday 🎉 😊blessings 🙌 🙏 sounds like some good 📚 📖 📙 📘 🎒 to read 📚 for readers 😊

I haven’t read the book but it looks like it’s better than the part 1 book that Turley and BJB worked on. Barbara certainly admitted to things that Church has avoided saying for more than a century. That said I found her telling things aimed at still defending Brigham Young and the LDS Church despite some really problematic facts Several raids “and only one of them led to a massacre…when something went awry…” I wonder if any of the other raids resulted in deaths or injury. If not then I would say the BY was lucky- except that a massacre of 100+/- men women and children is nothing to brag about. The claim that this is just about running off the cattle with MMM attack feels like a weak argument. Why on earth would the 2 Mormons heading back to Cedar City fire on the two Fancher stragglers if this all was just about running off the cattle? It makes no sense. The goal was to attack trains and have the news reach the East and CA. Mission accomplished. The actions suggest other motivations IMO…either actually stealing the cattle and belongings of the train AND/OR a vendetta of some sort. It’s hard to believe there wasn’t more at play here. Also the fig leaf that’s offered as an excuse for blood atonement, namely that those killed offered themselves to be killed, doesn’t work because they doctrine itself came from these ‘prophets, seers and revelators’ to begin with. Mormons believed these men spoke for God and so, of course, some would agree to be killed in order to cleanse serious sins and secure exaltation. The fact they offered themselves up, as it were, in no way makes the practice or teaching it OK. The idea of saving kids because they were innocent blood likely informed the actions at MMM even if it wasn’t said at the time. Sure as Barbara said the goal was to kill those that could talk but the idea of young kids being innocent of sins (innocent blood) certainly was in mind. “Young thinks maybe his strategy led to this…” You think? Young knew his strategy had blown up on him and that he now might be held responsible. Also I find the idea that BY thought cattle raids on wagon trains wouldn’t get anyone killed hard to swallow. He certainly had to know that it was possible that the wagon trains would fight to keep their property and that things could turn deadly. My suspicion is that he thought the body count would likely be low and he could accept that. He never imagined that 100+ would be massacred. It’s pretty telling that BJB says focuses on non-Mormons "politicizing the prosecution" of John D. Lee but brushes aside the theocracy that keeps non-Mormons from being able win office to begin with. Early UT was not kind at all to non-Mormons and accounts of violence and murder aimed at "Gentiles" and apostates support that. I guess though Barbara sees the real issue how the poor Mormons were targeted because of polygamy. The Andrew Jenson 1892 interview letter is telling in that it said that they want the truth about MMM but that it wouldn’t be revealed until the “time is right”. This shows again and determination to protect perpetrators until they have died or are no longer at legal risk. Pretty much destroys the LDS idea of “Do What is Right Let the Consequence Follow.” I was disappointed that Barbara brushed over the story destruction of the monument as well ….”that’s a whole other story...anyway...” What she chose to quickly skip over I think belies a desire to defend Brigham Young and present an apologetic narrative. Wilford Woodruff recorded in 1861 how BY essentially had people tear the cairn down while visiting the site. She suggested Young in troubled when he learned about the massacre in SLC in 1857 but apparently by 1861 he had enough contempt for the Fancher party to justify the killing as vengeance from God AND to direct his people to destroy the monument. The author discounts the role that revenge or anger Mormons had for the US and non-Mormons but in July 1864 Lorenzo Brown passing the Monument saw the words ‘“Remember Haun's Mill and Carthage Jail" just below the biblical passage on the cross.’ If nothing else it shows that after the MMM some people were more than happy to justify the killing. Lastly if the Church loses control of the MMM site, they in no way lose the ability to tell their side of the story, merely to absolutely control the narrative at the site. Personally I think the Church and it's supporters have lied so much about what happened and did so much to protect the perpetrators that they shouldn’t have control of the site.

The letter from Brigham Young that conveniently arrived too late very obviously implicates him. "The Indians will do as they please," he said. "The Indians" were the Mormons, the whole plan was to frame the Indians for what happened. This proves that Young was very much in on the plan.