The fact that the FIA can't ban rain is increasingly a problem in the modern era.

I used to get really excited about the prospect of rain in a race and how it would mix things up. Now I dread it, because it usually means huge delays (if the race hasn't started) or massively extended safety car periods. I honestly think F1 does not actually want to race in rain anymore, and should probably just say as much and adjust the calendar accordingly.

The primary reason is likely the modern F1 problem that the cars are just too big. The tyres are huge, the cars are huge, the downforce generated by the floor is huge. You can try and keep the spray lower but it doesn't make the amount of water these cars kick up any smaller.

I've always got the feeling that ever since Japan 2014 F1 has been far more hesitant to let cars race in heavy conditions, it's more us than the cars and/or mother nature being worse.

the information in this video was amazing. but in the end I think the point is being missed. like Danny-Rics said, it didn’t use to be this bad. it’s not about the tires, it’s about visibility in the rain, and these huge modern cars with full floor downforce packages is the issue. you can change tires all you want but if they can’t see it’s all moot. the reason the rain races have gotten worse is because of the visibility, so that should be the eventual message of this video. even with guards it seems like it’s the floor diffuser that is kicking up the most water so they’re already on the wrong step. the cars are just too big, the passing, the diffusers, the water, it all comes back to these cars being huge. the wheelbase got lengthened after 2011 and the cars are now 16 inches longer which is absurd. also when the cars were shorter the front wings never got damaged because they hung over the suspension instead of way out in front. the guys can’t pass without clipping someone, they can’t pass without drs, they can’t see above 4th gear in the rain. the problem is the wheelbase, go back to V10 and V8 era length and width specs but with modern safety and turbos for the plumbing. James Elson wrote a piece in Motorsport called “Why are F1 cars so big and heavy…”. it’s a good read, hopefully they realize the diffuser is too big and realize the cars are just too big, it’s very simple what the target is.

The difference between rain now and in the 80s 90s is that cars now are overwhelmingly aero dependent. Older cars relied on a lot of mechanical grip with relatively simple aero, allowing them to behave more predictably on the edge. Drivers like senna would routinely drive over the limit and catch the car, but try that in a modern F1 car and you'd be in the barriers. Combine that with the new floors and you basically have next level aquaplaning that makes rain races really dreadful.

The other issue is before 2003 and Parc Ferme conditions drivers could switch to a wet set up. Now they can't so if you set your car up for the dry that was what you had to race with - I believe you can adjust small things but not large things. We even had an acclimatisation practice that could also be useful if it rained after morning warm up but before the race. Again we don't have it anymore. Then there is the design of the tyres. In 1998 the Goodyear tyre flung out the water a further distance and this meant following a Goodyear runner was actually fine. You can see this in the 1998 Belgian GP when the two Jordan's and Jean Alesi were both fast and close together

I feel like the FIA still think about Belgium 2021. Last year in Singapore, they delayed the race a whole hour to start on the inters when they could have started the race on the wets. I like the concept the FIA is doing to disperse water and I hope it can work for next season

Its simple, ban Intermediate tires. Then its balancing slower Wets on a drying track vs Slicks on a damp track.

Is the visibility a separate issue though? That's the main reason that they don't run races when there's so much water, but then again that's exactly what the wet tyre is designed for

If you feel useless rembember that the FIA ask to have wet tyres to Barhain.

Either get rid of the WET tyre or the INTERMEDIATE tyre. Having both seems pointless now.

Introduce regulations to the rain and whether. If it's overcast, 10 second penalty to Ocon.

To reduce the spray, you will have to drastically alter the downforce/airflow. A huge compromise.

There's also the issue of trackside water drainage. Spa seems to suffer from this and improving it is a costly affair the circuit just can't invest in with such little certainty in terms of being on future F1 calendars.

Th problem in terms all goes back of visibilty can be traced back to the decision to go much higher downforce cars/wider tyres in 2017 . Since then racing in the wet has become more difficult.

This reminds me of that time when they had like 5 levels of soft tyres. I kept losing track as to which one was the softest tyre and basically no one ran mediums or hard´s.

This has been a problem for literally years! Why is it taking them this long to figure something out it’s embarrassing

I remember real racing on full wets and it made rain so interesting, the visibility is the issue.

They need to have multiple tyre manufacturers. Having only one is pointless and just allows Pirelli to produce subpar almost "shit tier" tires because there is zero competition.

They need to give Pirelli tires more time to test tyres in all conditions.

I remember the 07 Japanese gp in Fuji. That was a great gp

I like the Idea of the SI tires. Reduces what needs to be brought to the track instead of 2 sets of different wet tyres. Also means that Slick tires on a drying track is brought into strategy earlier.

My solution, since a few years back now, is to keep two types of wet tires but shift them both closer to the slicks. So a new "wet" tire, maybe around 20% "more wet" than the current inters, and a new inter in-between that and a slick. That way, the new inter would be very suitable for truly damp conditions when the track is just greasy and the slicks have trouble generating enough temperature to work. And the new wet would be capable of a little more water on track than the current inters, making them ideal for conditions that are wet - but still race-able. There is no need for a tire that can clear huge amounts of standing water, because of visibility. And I have very low expectations for any bolt-on spray-guards, physics simply won't allow it - there will always be spray when multiple heavily aerodynamic cars are running on track together.

I say again, the majority of the issue resides around getting the race started, as it has to be a monsoon for the cars to not lift it faster than it falls, thereby keeping the spray reasonable as it doesn't get "too wet". Therefore, run the runs using VSC instead of the safety car pre-race / pre-restart, with the cars evenly spaced around the track, allowing much higher speeds than the SC can manage and with enough space that the spray isn't dangerous. The speeds can be increased as the track dries up to the point where the SC comes out for a lap, brings the cars to the grid/bunched for rolling [re]start and away they go. This doesn't help with the full wet being a bad tyre, but it would help dry the track far quicker to enable proper racing (and less laps piddling around behind the SC and/or waiting for rain to stop/ease).

Tire tread is a very effective pump. The bottom of the tire is effectively stationary while the top is traveling at twice the vehicles speed. Water flows into the tread at the bottom and if flung out at the top, or at least on it's way to the top. The under-body and diffuser are effectively a vacuum cleaner, sucking up any water on the track and blowing it out the back. So even fully enveloping rain guards will be close to useless. So, how about narrower wheels and 'rain' tires with taller profiles. By raising the cars the vacuum cleaner effect must be diminished as will the be amount to water that will be flung into the air. Yes, the cars will be slower (perhaps) but racing in the rain is exciting at any speed.

I think if they got rid if the Inters, it would make the racing more exciting. Maybe they could bring the Wets closer to where the Inters are now, so they can remove the Inters, creating a bigger disparity between slicks and wets. That would help make racing more interesting

A large part of the increased safety cell weight is due to the need to keep beefing it up to deal with the greater impacts brought about by the increased weight of the heavier cars! Physics is a thing - you make something heavier - everything else needs to be heavier to keep up...

I think not wets are pointless - it seems they are not less driveable than previous suppliers' tyres. The spray also don't seem to be bigger than before. The mindset about racing in the rain changed after Suzuka 2014 and more fatalities played towards safety first. Open wheel racing will always produce spray, I hope FIA and its counterparts will bring some great solutions, because the current situation is killing one of the greateast excitement element of the sport.

I remember Monsoon tyres, they were great at clearing water off the track.

They need to go back to compounds of slicks and one wet weather tyre only. Then the only choice is when to go back to slicks or stick with wets. The last couple of seasons or so have been farcical in the rain.

The solution is absolutely the "super intermediate" tyre for both performance running, spray reduction AND sustainability.

My minivan is creating a spray going 60mph just because its boxy and have some low pressure behind. Good luck fixing that on something 3 times faster and designed to create low pressure towards the actual water.

Its all very well to have something bolted to the car to reduce spray but it needs to be able to be fitted and removed quickly as required. If you have a downpour mid race you're back to same solution. Red flag until inters can be used. It needs to be quick fit, and fitted whenever a full wet is. A similar system to what locks the front wing down, for example. Maybe it can be integrated into the wheel cover, redesign the cover on wets to have a free spinning component, and interact with the brow when fitted to be fixed.

I don't understand why only now this issue gets raised. In my opinion the problems with the wet tire were already apparent last year if no even earlier.

i use to love rain in F1 races but safety issues as of late have me never wanting a wet track again. it’s not exciting anymore, im hoping they’ll stick to the 3 tire rotation for quali, makes for a more interesting race

Let them run "sucker" cars like the Chaparral 2J or the Reb Bull cars on Gran Turismo. The fans and vents used to create the downforce/ground effect can be angled to blow water in a particular direction. The track gets cleared, spray is limited and we get to keep the ground effect! Btw this isn't a serious suggestion, but it would be pretty cool to see.

4:46 OMG! I love that camera angle so much. F1 should include more camera angles along with the traditional ones.

F1 has been going this way since the mid 90's and the problem is the level of reliance on aerodynamics. They need to move the cars back toward mechanical grip and make them smaller. Keep the over car aero rules as they are now, spec part the floor and diffuser. Revert back to all ICE engines (but using 100% synthetic fuel) and reduce the dimensions of the cars. That solves all of f1's biggest problems, including racing in the wet and it will be bucket loads cheaper.

What about Monaco 2022? In that race it was wet conditions, but they still ran the race (after waiting a while) on the wet tyres and people didn't pit immediately for inters. They ran a good number of laps before they believed the inters were the best tyre to be on. This rose strategies, some people pit onto the inters early to hop to get the undercut, and some stayed on the wet all the way until the slicks were ready to use. Why was that situation different than the Spa sprint race in 2023 where they ran 4 formation laps and pit immediately to inters? Why didn't they just let them go on wets for the sprint race after the first formation lap?

I love your channel, thanks for the content. Priceless 👍🏻😁

the visibility and aquaplaning/hydroplaning issue can be mitigated somewhat with lighter cars that have smaller hybrid batteries.

Im sure that all the teams would happily send out last years cars with reserve drivers to a track for tyre testing in the "artificial wet" like the tracks mentioned. Just need to make sure that teams dont collect data they can use for the current season (unless its tyre related) and isnt part of the cost cap due to any damages or issues etc. Also not exactly sure how it would work but i feel like they need to make the wet tyres bigger without having to change the car which could then lead to less aquaplaning similar to the extreme wets but that is just tread - i mean like the whole tyre itself could definetly be improved in that aspect

Might as well ask them to bring a road car for the race 🤦🏾‍♂️

Something that never get’s mentioned but I remember reading in a 1990s f1 book is that they used to be able to have complete freedom to have very hard suspension settings for the springs in the dry back then and then change them to very soft for the wet conditions …back then … I’m sure now there is a rule introduced a few seasons ago that it has to a single setting now for the whole weekend (?) if that’s correct I support the rule if it’s a fully dry weekend but it needs to be dropped for weekends when it’s half dry half wet and for fully wet weekends when wet levels can still change a bit …… because I’m sure since then teams just run their traditional hard dry spring settings ( with maybe a touch towards softer) which means no difference in the dry but in the wet it’s far from the ideal settings which is what the 1990s f1 had over the modern cars in the wet and remember they were going full throttle on the Indy banked corner in the wet ! Also if true remember that the hard dry spring settings from a few seasons ago should have only off likely got harder since with the move back to non flat underfloor downforce being legal again … am I right? Would also explain why in “inters” conditions it’s so so much less off a problem as well … personally I would happily trade a losing a bit off speed from the dry f1 cars if it meant we regained a bit off green flag full wet tires racing back … yes sometimes you have to throw a red or yellow flag because it’s too wet or unsafe ( see Australian gp 1991) but we all fed up with almost no wet tire green flag racing laps … as motor racing on off the few sports that can sometimes be better in the rain!

It’s worrying that the fia seemed to be surprised that the spray guards didn’t tackle the spray thrown up by the diffuser

Would spray be less if tyres were narrower? Would grip be reduced much if the pressure of the contact area onto the track increased as a result of the same downward force being excerted over a smaller area?

damn 8 sec lmao i have no life

Way more interesting to watch MotoGP in a wet race than F1, once you hear the track is wet, it's a snooze fest with delays and waiting for the track to clear. The irony that those racing on two wheels are less affected by those racing on four wheels. If visibility is a problem, then the drivers need to practice caution on their own to reduce risk, let the bolder one take more risk for more rewards, that's more exciting. Nobody is forcing them to drive blindly if they don't dare to. That's what we want to see.

The biggest problem is the new floor tunnels. The areo is so massive it turns the water into a micro droplet mist cloud, that makes it very hard to see. The old cars didn’t do this

Wet tires over 20 years ago had grooves about twice as deep as what we have now. Also, they where narrower. Wet and intermediate tires need to be narrower. Narrower tires = Less water to evacuate at a given speed = Less aquaplaning = Less projection.

I can’t wait for Will Buxton to make rain the main villain for drive to survive season 6

we need to just have lighter and smaller cars. in 80s when the cars were 100kg plus lighter, visibilty was less of a problem and aquaplanning is less likely to occur meaning the superintermediate tyre is more viable.

Visibility problem is a product of combination wide tyres keeping that monstrous monoposts on the track and huge suction effect of the floor that creates that huge spray of water behind the monoposts. SO if you want to reduce it to provide better visibility, just change the rules od aerodynamics components and bring back those small compact light monoposts that dont need these huge tyres. Plus to keep racing during the rain you need tyres, that are capable to do their job. So you need to kick the Pirelli out and bring back someone, who knows, how to design and produce tyres for F1.

Ive always wondered whether there is a way to use rhe diffuser airflow to kick the spray out to the sides, instead of upwards. Like if you could get the air flowing out from the diffuser to split in a V shape and thus kick the spray out to the sides, which would improve visibility behind.

I mean if they can fix the spray issue with extra bodywork. Then wouldn’t the current tire options be fine?

The easiest solution would be for the next gen of F1 rules to make the cars smaller like they were in 2016 and before that, with narrower tyres. Less tyre to fling the water and less aero surface to do the same. Yes the cars may become slower but smaller cars would allow for other positives, like allowing more than 1 car to fit through a corner without having the drivers stressing about losing their dining room table of a front wing. With the cars being slower, that brings safety benefits, and if we want to at least reduce some of the lap time loses. Blown diffusers could be a good solution. The active aero ideas are unnecessarily complex and would add weight and another point of possible failure

The solution against spray in The Netherlands is open graded asfalt concrete. There is almost no spray here when it rains.. I wonder if it's even remotely possible to use that stuff on a track. The track would probably require regular repairs, rubbering in might clog the porous asfalt. But hey, if it works..😅

I just fail to understand how pretty much all of these problems have suddenly materialized in the past few years, whereas having races significantly disrupted due to rain was pretty rare in years past.

Isn't it possible to use higher luminosity rear lights? And add lights on the halo and on the side like in Formula E, that way you can see cars behind in the mirrors and also if they're spinning.

“F1” did a test with Ferrari in the late nineties with a wet weather surface which was a more porous tarmac that allowed water to drain away significantly reducing spray - but the surface wasn’t strong enough to take the braking and cornering loads…. I wonder if there has been improvements here? Resurfacing an entire circuit would be mega bucks but it would negate the need for wet weather tyres with inters being the only requirement

I like what F2 do and have full wets or dries, no in-between.

How about letting teams cut their own tread like they used to do in rallying so they can get the exact right pattern/depth for the conditions of the race?

The visibility problem is virtually unsolvable. A car designer back in the early days of the 3 litre F1 era was watching his car go round in the wet and estimated that the rooster tails were costing the car 100 bhp. The aerodynamics of how to contain the rooster tails is especially difficult as you are having to deal with 3 forces, the movement of the air, the movement of the water and the movement affecting both due to the centrifugal force of the wheels. We all know the problems of driving behind large HGV in the wet and some of it has been partially nullified by using specially designed liners inside the wheel housings, essentially artificial grass pads mounted to stop the spray but the volume of water eventually overwhelms them and it just dumps it all in front of following traffic. I don't know how many people watched the recent Group 3 sports car race held at the Nurbergring but even with enclosed bodies on the cars, the spray was as bad as that in F1.

The cars are also bigger than ever, disturbing more and more water. They have more load mass on the tyres due to the wait, disturbing more water. They are also obtaining their downloaded from ground effect, likely also increasing the spray as the air flicks up after the cars. Spa is on the calendar at the wrong time of year, I think that's very clear.

They really should just get rid of the inter and force the extreme wet as the only wet tire. It’ll slow down the pace in wet conditions and it’ll add a bit more strategy before switching to slicks.

Spa 2023, there was a low, frontal shot of one of the Ferrari's (I think Sainz) coming out of a corner and accelerating. At one point, you could see the floor starting to suck up water from the track. I replayed that sequence a few times. Can't find it online though to share, pity...

At Spa the visibility is a problem, but it wasn't the case at Zandvoort where we had strong wind to dissipate the spay, and yet we still had a red flag.

The FIA should also look at the tracks. Tracks can improve drainage to flow of the track and keep the track from standing water spots.

Super inters would be much better: they'd be a bit slower so there's more risk/reward to go back to slicks and they would match the sustainability path for F1 since less tires would be brought to events. Big W

The keel/floorboard aero along with the diffuser contribute to more than half of the spray produced...

Don't know technologically when this could be possible, but it doesn't feel like this is that far away from being possible: So the flashing lights on the back of the cars were initially put there to improve visibility in wet conditions right - could they do a modern equivalent of this? Augmented reality on the visor, in real time, highlighting where other cars are, the track limits, and maybe braking markers? If technologically possible to reliably implement this, I think it works? Obviously reducing spray is the best option, but if not possible and visibility is the limiting factor on wet races, it could help?

Groundfloor cars throw the air up so close racing is possible. With a wet track it throws also water up creating more spray then non-groundeffect cars. Fixing the tires therefore does not fix the problem of visibility.

What if the answer was helmet technology similar to that used in the military, IR and thermal imaging, image enhancement, and all that. Cameras and sensors around the car and track could enhance what the driver can see in the wet or dry. You could even see through the halo.

Ditch the wet design, call the current intermediates wet tyres, and make grooved slicks the inters

The huge tail of spray produced by each car on a wet track is doubtless exacerbated by the aerodynamic efficiency of modern F1 cars. The vortices that are formed as air flows over a car - and that the designers exploit to control airflow on and around the car - are probably responsible for lifting into and keeping in the air quite a bit of that water cleared by the tyres from the track.

Spray guards will only do a small amount of work. The amount of water that gets sucked up by the floor's diffuser is now way more than the pre-ground effect cars. They might have worked on previous cars, but I don't see them solving the issue with these.

The issue isnt the tyre , the issue is when the track is wet enough for wets , unlike years gone by where they would still race they call it off now because its too wet 😅 again years past they put on a full wet it cleared the track and so you switch tyres to inters etc as the race went on , this current f1 really isn't very good.

I'm not an expert on aerodynamics but it seems exceedingly unlikely that the FIA will be able to create a bolt-on standardized spray guard kit that wouldn't disproportionately effect some cars more than others.

If you want to reduce the water trail spray, just make the tyre tread pattern so they only filter water towards the outside of the tyre instead of both outside and inside. Simple.

I don't understand why they are starting with tini tiny spray guards and working their way up to wheel covers. Just put on some wheel covers, lets see if that works and start chopping off material/introduce aero tricks from there.

They really need 3 wet weather tyres. They need a monsoon tyre. A wet tyre that would be like a current inter but with a bit more tread. And then an intermediate that has no tread or very minimal tread that is specifically designed to work on a drying track

But what happens when the track dries out during a race? Do you continue to drive around with these rain guards bolted to the car?

Doesn’t the spray suppression negate the clearance of water from the track?

Has anyone thought about the inters being too powerful yet? Because of the new cars the visibility with extremes is so bad that after 4 laps behind the safety car (Belgium) the inters are already better. So why not nerf the inters and wets together, as we cannot drive in full wet conditions anyway (unless extra spoilers are made behind the wheels)?

Come race in Austin early.. we haven't had rain in 5 weeks

I do wonder if the issue is also that the Inter is just too good. Works in wetter conditions than it should and can wear down into a slick if it’s drying

I think FIA can implement whenever on wet tyre they should mount a tyre covers to stop the spray. They should have to come with that if not just refund the tickets if grand prix is wet.

Keep Ground Effect but significantly reduce the footprint of the cars, like go back to 1998-2004 era sized cars. Critically assess the relevance of the numerous safety additions added over the years and add bolt on wet weather packages

if the cars can’t race is the conditions that full wets call for, either push the wet closer to an inter and then maybe the inter closer to a slick or like you said just make the inter more like a wet and scrap the wet. i love the strategy of 2 wet weather tyres so i prefer the first option but right now the wet is pointless anyways

5:42 ‘impenetrable grey Merc.’ Nice work, editing team.

Just ditch the wet tires and make the intermediates slightly more siped. Also the FIA/Stewards need a muzzle put on them. Pirelli can 1000% develop such a tire, remember that F1 tires are deliberately designed to fail in a way that creates good broadcasts.

Getting rid of the intermediates and just having a single Wet tyre that provides a good level of grip and water movement like road tyres like they do in F2 and other championships is my preferred option. Would make racing slower but that's not necessarily a bad thing in the rain.

They need to design a mesh for the diffuser that allows air to pass but causes water to fall.

Easy solution. Bin the inters and incorporate AR into visors to highlight the track and back of cars in a HUD by putting beacons on the apex and 100m boards so drivers know where they are and where others are. Big crossover range from dry to wets with a big potential time loss getting it wrong either way

Rather than remove the water from the drivers view, why not use technology to enable a driver to see through it. They wear a helmet anyway, why not implement some sort of AR. It could also be used to provide drivers with information, such as rear view (as the mirrors on an f1 car are pointless) which would help backmarkers move out of the way, distance to next driver, when to come in to pits, penalties etc.

I think diffuser rules should be adjusted to reduce the spray it produces.

Isn't it easier to divert the water away to the sides? At high speeds the cars could aerodynamically divert (a large amount of) water to the side, so that the center remains relatively dry, improving visibility. It would also improve the track conditions more quickly, since the water would be removed from the track by each subsequent passing vehicle. Diverting water down does not work, since the airflow underneath the f1 vehicles is too strong. So diverting water down eventually means that it will bounce up again, with the unfortunate consequence of terrible visibility.

I'm surprised there's no one saying the obvious: that the wheel-covers are useless because the increased spray problem comes from the ground effect rules with the whole car being designed to push air upwards. We keep discussing that the FIA are researching and bla bla bla... it's going to account for a small portion of the spray like it showed, rendering it basically useless.

Tires and fenders don't matter with all the ground affect pick up. Almost better with the old flat floor formula for 🌧️.