Here's the thing: Literally no one thought of Courtney Love as riot grrl

i’m a poc riot grrrl and i do agree with you that riot grrrl was highly problematic and thank you for making a video about it bec it needed to be said. many people forget that poc women like tina bell were the mothers of riot grrrl/feminist grunge. however many modern riot grrrl bands do acknowledge poc and trans women and i think that’s fantastic!!

yeah i'm still waiting for the day we get ALL grrls to the front, including the crips 😤 (yes, i am disabled and use a wheelchair); not all riot grrrl concerts have been the safest or best experience, sadly.

In fairness to Kathleen Hanna and a lot of these riot grrrl bands that may have performed at TERFy events almost 30 years ago is that a lot of those concerts were the only feminist punk concerts available at the time. Also trans people and voices being even less seen and heard now and the concept of intersectionality still rather new (this reflects the broader scope of 2nd wave feminist ideas transitioning to the 3rd wave). Many of those bands have publicly regretted performing at such shows and have since expressed support for trans rights (like Hanna).

In my experience growing up in the 90’s and being involved in a local, west Texas punk scene I can only describe my experience and my perceptions of the punk subculture in general. I remember our scene being representative of the population of my town. We had a smattering of black folks, about 20 percent Latino and perhaps 2 percent LBGTQ. Girls were also welcome. In essence, If you were interested in Punk music and if you showed up you were in. I found the scene to be more diverse and inclusive than the mainstream culture of our town and also the national pop culture of the time. In Olympia Washington the population is primarily white and the riot girl scene represented it. As far as I know people of color and LBGTQ folks were not actively excluded, and they were not man haters. Riot Grrrrl was coined by a zine created in Olympia Washington and then slapped on every alternative band made up of women. It was really a bit much and no one enjoys being pigeon holed. In the 90s There were “girl bands” and bands. Some were political and some were Apolitical like L7 and Babes in Toyland. For the most part women in bands wrote songs about their experiences, often venting frustration and anger about being a woman or girl in a patriarchal society. I remember Lilith fair being very inclusive. I am not familiar with the festival you referenced in your video but I am thinking it was likely a more militant and niche group not representative of the whole. Tribe8 was a lesbian band that in no way fetishized lesbianism to attract the male gaze. The were what they were and unapologetic. Kathleen Hanna was a exotic dancer for a time and if I were to sum-up her particular brand of feminism I would say she believed that a woman had the choice of doing whatever suited her. She believed that women shouldn’t have to play 10 times better to be in a band and could be just as mediocre as a male band. She did not endorse a prescribed feminist way of being. In Her next band latigra she wrote songs about racism and LBGTQ topics. In contradiction to the riot girl ethos, Courtney love actively bated other female performing artists and once took an unprovoked potshot at Hanna back stage at Lallapalooza. She was attention seeking and truly wanted to be a pop star. She was generally not a favorite among the punk rock scene be it male or female. Sonic youth was not a “riot grrrl however bass guitarist and vocalist Kim Gordon was influential in her own right. Were the 90s perfect? Did we know everything there was to know about diversity and inclusivity? Absolutely not but in my opinion it was a step in the right direction.

I'm a Latin- south african goth girl and i always feel excluded in these scenes because there are no support whatsover. all the other alt girls talk or post about anti rascism however, when it comes into their scene its ignored. But anyways, you could not have explained this topic better!

I dated and lived with a girl younger than myself who was into the scene. She even played bass in a girl band. We went to quite a few shows , Batmobile (many times) Huggy Bear , L7 , Seven year bitch etc. A lot of the shows were a blast and yet there were some not so much and full of "MAN HATERs" Which was pretty hypocritical...oh and we both had enormous crushes on Allison Wolf.

I think Kathleen Hannah has always shown support for trans women. A direct nod to this was was the collaboration Le Tigre did with Paper Tiger for the official music video Keep On Living'. " In collaboration with Le Tigre, Paper Tiger Television organized a group of G/B/L/TS/T/Q youth in New York to produce a three minute video for the song “Keep On Livin'” that will be projected during the live performances of the song. This visual layer will foreground conceptual and theoretical ideas that might otherwise be lost in the rock club settings where the band often perform".

zOMG. Im just so happy you mentioned Poly Styrene. & don't know if Kathleen Hannah took inspiration from her to create her onstage persona/style of singing. But she did sound like her so so much.

I’m a guy who is in a riot grrrl band ( I do not consider myself a riot grrrl but I am an intersectional feminist) tbh there has been a lot of talk about the revival of the subculture and it is good to see in my local punk scene, but some people have told me that they feel excluded from our scene, because of some e kids posing as riot grrrls and punks saying that poc and skinheads can’t join in. These people I found out have also harassed one of my band members (who is trans fem) and told them to fuck off. There not punx or riot grrrls but just assholes. And our group of skinheads who are a part of our scene told us they were getting shit from these guys too. The funny thing is our punk and grunge scene too have banned these kids from shows so the people who want to join in can and make are scene a welcoming space for all. To keep the culture alive, we don’t need cancel culture, but instead spread information about intersectional feminism. Just do what you enjoy, that’s why we are all here. I understand your frustration though. Long live the punx :)

So what? Just like every other past feminist sub-movement, Riot Grrrl was a necessary precursor to greater inclusivity. Its value can be see if you zoom out and see it in its proper historical and teleological context. Was it completely inclusive? No. Did it pave the way for more inclusive movements? Yes.

riot grrrl is highly associated with the emergence of 3rd wave feminism, which was meant to address the issues of 2nd wave feminism, including the "criminalise s3x work", TERFs and racism, i.e. 3rd wave feminism brought us intersectionality, and i dont know if this racially problematic and TERFy behaviour was as much a feature back then, in the the scene broadly, because that would make no sense given the broader impact of this scene on feminism. We'd need a deeper dive because with this level of analysis every movement is problematic, because every movement has its issues or slip ups.

Awesome video! I agree it's important to examine subcultures such as this one and make sure discrimination isn't hiding within it 👍

I think it's interesting than Japan and the far east, portrayed in the west as being way behind in terms of female equality, has an absolute ton of female bands, playing the same sweaty clubs the male bands play, and nobody bats an eyelid. The lack of female presence in western rock really goes back even further than male gatekeepers not wanting women 'diluting' their scene*, but right back to the fact that women just aren't encouraged to learn to play instruments when they are young. Women in the west are really just seen as singers and dancers, and the few bands who seem to get attention are either those rocker types who are 'more like the men than the men' or feminist bands. There's nothing wrong with either of those, but it shows female bands are still a novelty. * these are a real problem though, although it does appear to be more of an American thing. I love a tiny Korean female punk band called Rumkicks and they get a lot of abuse from American punks making incorrect assumptions about them, because any punk band that isn't a male American hardcore anarchist type band, living in a crust of their own filth, singing about hate, watched by people who think punching people in the pit is a geat night out, isn't real punk. In England, in contrast, they were loved at the Rebellion Festival, and will get to play the main stage this year.

Sonic Youth is brilliant. I think of them as noise rock, not riot girl.

I think this ignores many things

i must admit alot of this went over my head, but im glad i learned some of the history.

Good basic, super surface start.....keep digging, you will blown away..xo

the music rules

Good video. Also Le Tigre owes its entire existence to ESG!

From what I've seen, she has been more supportive of trans people in the past several years, though through all myriad interviews she's given in the past 20 years, I have not found any expression of remorse for supporting the TERF institution that is Mich Fest by playing it twice, long after it was well known that they were trans exclusionary. The story of a trans woman being kicked out in the middle of the night without warning 7 years before LeTigre's first appearance was well known, so no excuse for them to play again a few years later. She wasn't alone of course --many acts kept coming back, even as they disavowed the "Womyn-Born-Womyn" policy. But many have at least acknowledged it was wrong. Edit: I originally had written here about the inherent misogyny of excluding trans women and not trans men (because they are seen as women), but that's a larger subject. Despite her including pro-trans ideas in tweets, etc., I can't tell what she really feels about trans women specifically. As a trans woman who used to like Riot Grrl, I can't say I trust that she is really pro-trans women and not just saying what she thinks people want to hear.

omg so i know u havent posted in so long but can you do a video about the riot grrrls who started the movement/poc riot grrrls please and thx

This video is a must! Like, honestly. Bikini Kill is my favorite band since 2016 and I guess, as a human, I kind of idolized them. I literally posted "Blood One" from their "P*ssy Whipped" Album in my Stories yesterday. I would never know about this case and would never think of the racial part of it. At least not so clearly

Thank you so much for shedding light on this topic🙏🏾

Excellent video, thank you

wait how is sonic youth terfy?? /gen

How do we feel about still referring to ourselves as riot grrrls? I have mixed feelings like would it be seen as a supporter of the band and veiws or the grrrl esk music

Coolio!

Just wanted to say your disclaimer about quality at the top of the video was really unnecessary. I think the writing, video content, and audio quality are all great. You have a unique perspective and an original point of view. Keep doing what you’re doing by sparking thoughts, ideas, and discussions.

I just found your channel and love it ! You’re so articulated and funny 😊 I recommend the podcast Starting a Riot by Fabi Reyna, a queer poc that talks about the riot grrrl mouvement

Don't feel so bad about yourself.

you brought up good points and some stuff i didn't know before. I haven't been a riot grrrl in years or even a feminist. I want nothing to do with white feminism. I think riot grrrl shouldn't make a comeback it was a 90s thing. If anything if these musicians want to continue form new bands or at least tour with various acts that include trans people and woc.

Even Kurt Cobain himself said in one of his journals that he grew to hate Riot Grrrl

Cool video bruh🤘, punk is more than an esthetic or a genere and, as such, should be more inclusive! It always suks hearing stories like these.

I didn't know biki kill played terf festivals. This got me fucked up. Most of my friends are trans

can anyone recomend me some non problematic riot grrl/feminist punk bands? ive been trying 2 get in2 xray spex so if u have any reccs by them thatd be great 2

Thank you for making this video! Things like transphobia, racism, and classism are definitely still prevalent to this day in some self-proclaimed feminist and punk spaces. I'm happy that the punk scene (at least where i live) is an example of how scenes can become more welcoming and change for the better.

I had the time of my life in the 90s. I didn't even know this was a thing. It just seems like a lot of women and Lesbians that hate men.

i hate communities, theyre like a union. A UNION. jk

The main problem is the music was godawful. So many previous female bands and members in Punk before this movement who put out really amazing music. No need to celebrate mediocrity.

Hey! Since yesterday i tried to take an interest about riot grrrl and its movement in general. I really enjoyed it. Yet, i was as bummed as you when i discovered that they were many transphobic and racist people in it. Regardless, i know it doesn’t concern all riot grrrl groups and every riot grrrl but i absolutely don’t want to listen to problematic people or songs. So i wonder where can i find safe riot grrrl groups to listen to…. If you have some suggestions, please answer me 💓 thank you ❤️