If Pageau & Vvk would like me to hold 6 camping slots each for their representatives, that'd be kinda cool :)

Instead of seeing Horizon (Abraham) and Home (Odysseus) as a polarity, I think we have to think them as identical opposites. We have to see Abraham as departing and Odysseus as arriving. Home and Horizon are the same thing. The whence and the whither are the same. John got close to this when saying Abraham is leaving toward a NEW home. But what is newness? Is it a wholly new and different home? To respond we have to invoke something like Maximus' ever-moving repose. We are ever departing home in order to return back home. Going toward the horizon, is not leaving home behind, is returning to the true home. Your ongoing discussion of telos and narrative or lack of telos and narrative is crucial to understand the whither of the horizon.

Good looking crew

Such a relatable topic! John Vervaeke's question, "Do we want a home?" Reminds me of Jesus' question, "Do you want to be healed?" The answer may seem obvious but it isn't really.

I grew up in Chino but moved away a long time ago. It is a little surreal that the conference is being held there. I think I'm going to have make my way home for this.

I wish I could make it to the west coast to see you all in person but unfortunately it's not possible right now. But I do resonate very deeply with the theme of Spiritual Homelessness. Growing up a JW, I was forced to assimilate into a spiritual home and threatened with shunning, banishment and eternal death if I ever deviated from that home. But I realized as a teenager that is not a home, it's a prison. A home is a place/people you choose voluntarily. You then align your physical, mental and imaginal being to that place and those people and it becomes your Home. This is true in both the physical and spiritual sense of that word. We cannot find our home if the imagined image of our future is clouded. When we do not know what tomorrow brings we are not at home; in that situation we are surviving in the wild. A home is not a place you can find on a map, it's the place where the divine imagination can touch reality through your being.

I love and am a huge fan of everyone here, but Kathryn's contribution and role in these events and how it shapes what they are cannot be overstated.

I'm listening to this and I get to the part where Van Donk says "There's gonna be ladies y'all" and my mind does this weird "they're bringing spiritual wombs on the quest for a spiritual home" thing - that the rest of my mind doesn't really want to look at too closely

56:45. Great point Katherine. The feminine aspect of the quest is being forgotten. In both women and men's psyches. Abram 'leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife'. Maintaining and re-instantiating home is important for making something to cling to... Idk... Martin Shaw talks of the 'prayer mat under our feet'. If I understand him correctly, it's about finding (masculine) and making (feminine) home wherever you are.

A question asked about meaning porn and a really great answer from the BoM Q&A on April 7th. Personally I thought it was worth repeating. “….a distracting falseness that is finally (ultimately) unfruitful….being attracted /addicted to insights but never actually making progress in your real life. Many of us are insight addicts but if they don’t produce fruit in your life they are of no purpose to you. The purpose of training in righteousness is righteous living….” PVK. 👊🏼

Can't wait to see you all! I attended the estuary with John Van Donk last month, and hopefully I can go next week again! Lots of raw, honest conversations, and I hope we can be deliberate about being spiritual homemakers

Y’all are going to have so much fun. I’m super jelly of everyone going, especially the ones camping or paint balling!

This brought to mind Chesterton's essay on the cosmopolitan attitude: "On Mr Rudyard Kipling and Making the world small"

“Lord you made us for yourself, our hearts are restless until we rest in thee.”Augustine:

Hard to not drift further into Luddite territory when I already feel like I do about AI and ChatGPT, and then I hear someone as brilliant as Vervaeke being as negative about ChatGPT as he was during this conversation. I’ve already given up all social media (other than KZfaq) for good, but I’m almost into the territory of going back to a flip phone and pencil and paper 😂

"Why do we leave? To return home." - Meister Eckhart

I so wish I could be a part of the event. The feeling of being a "spiritual hitchhiker" feels very much like what I've lived for awhile. Doesn't help that, over 8 years ago, I moved away from the only hometown I'd ever known for 30 years, 2000 miles away, and have lived in an apartment ever since. Many of the themes and messages from this teaser alone felt really like it was "right up my alley". But life demands I be somewhere else then, doing Life things. Hope I get a chance to watch things from this conference afterward.

1:07 Dr McGilchrist and Dougald Hine make this very point of anchoring in the ruins in their recent KZfaq on Channel McGilchrist. Dr McGilchrist would be such a welcome addition to this conversation, imho.

So excited to be joining this!

Congrats! Sounds like a great event

What a teaser! I can't be there but hope and pray for a beautiful time for everyone attending.

Thanks everyone!

The instrument is not the note The orchestra is not the symphony The wires are not the electricity The brain is not the mind The universe is not the math

Home is where you invite the barnyard animals in to help heat the place when it is cold.

Yo

What a wonderful conversation! I am stuck in Crete/Greece and won't be able to make it to Chino. However, my ELSNET host John Van Donk is going to be there, so in spirit I will be there, too. God bless you all.

*eating breakfast listening to this getting suddenly freaked out by John V*

I wish you guys could do a conference with Rafe Kelley spearheading the Paintball for Jesus events.

The idea of the attachment being necessary to explore is very interesting. Perhaps Orthodoxy has remained so close to its roots because Christ remains a mystery. The freedom afforded to reformers has allowed them to expand what it means to be a Christian much farther (though we are struggling with limits and boundaries at times)

Really wish I could make it! Will be hoping for remarkable success that requires another conference closer to Michigan! :)

Vandonk!

At 8:00 when JVV starts taking about ‘home’ apart from a dwelling chorus to Homeward Bound sprang to mind: “Homeward bound I wish I was Homeward bound Home where my thought's escapin' Home where my music's playin' Home where my love lies waitin' Silently for me”

36:14 seems to me when you grow up moving as a kid you get hit with chronic liminal home sickness that’s never able to be healed because you go back to all these places and they aren’t ever really home…

This conversation made me wish I could go. Also made me think of the movie “up in the air”. Which fits nicely with the theme. A good watch.

How profound this conversation was. And how much more so that weekend will be.

Re: Home, would be great to put this stuff in dialogue with Miroslav Volf with new book on the Home of God.

❤

Bring Kathryn back! She’s wonderful!

Six degrees of séparation.❤😊

Home is a mode of being in the world, the Kingdom of God is within you (also you forgot an important myth relating to this theme: The Grail).

Blessings Paul! I was wondering if any of you have read Edith Stein’s “The Problem of Empathy”? It touches consciousness, agency, soul, spirit and so forth, which I see relates to these topics you love to discuss specially with Vervaeke 👌🏼

I can't wait!

AC/DC Vanderklay

It's difficult not to feel like a fraud when Christ says that He has no place to lay His head because we're hardly as courageous as Him. Dare we follow Him? Truly? Leave everything behind? There's a very real problem with being able to actually go to the extreme. I do think He can rest. But that is because He is rest. He can rest and work at the same time... we mere humans, we're not as competent. I thought I was brave, turns out I'm not.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph made home. Jesus and the Father coming to live with the believer makes home. The devil and his minions make family and home their principle target for attack.

I am worried... these cats flying down from Canada to the Ontario CA airport... you may just end up flying in circles, or end up back in the Federation :) Double... no, triple-check with the gate agent :)

Boy would I love to be in on these conversations... Rootlessness is one angle, (Paul's mention near the end) I think this is a slight miss... it's often a discarding of the particular/regional in favor of a rooting to the deeper and universal (at least aspirationally).

Looking forward to f2f in Chino! Q: Will Vervaeke’s “horizonal” involve the perceptual horizon made evident by Douglas Harding’s “Supra’s-phenomenological” experiments? (This is Karl, holder of the Chino logistics spreadsheet and I want to talk with anyone interested about Douglas Harding’s Headless Way. It seems to give me a way to stay anchored and to move forward at the same time; to find the Grail, yet not lose the search for it; to conquer nihilism by means of the perception of “nothing”. This probably sounds like nonsense… because, in a way, it is.🤔)

Bravo!

Home is central to the new Lord of the Rings series. The nomad people sing this song: "The sun is fast fallin' Beneath trees of stone The light in the tower No longer my home Past eyes of pale fire Black sand for my bed I trade all I've known For the unknown ahead Call to me Call to me Lands far away For I must now wander This wandering day Away I must wander This wandering day... Sing to me Sing to me Lands far away Oh, rise up and guide me This wandering day Please promise to find me This wandering day... Not all those who wonder or wander are lost."

Would love to attend one of these conferences in the future! Maybe Denver, Phoenix, or Dallas (though Santa Fe, New Mexico, would be perfect :) )

Paul, I suggest that you watch a video entitled - Mark Zuckerberg Leaves Atheists SPEECHLESS (Powerful Message about God!) - where David Wood (Apologetics Roadshow) discusses Zuckerberg's understanding of the Biblical claim, in Genesis 1, that human beings are created in the image of God.

Cool chat. I wish you all the best for this next meetup. I don’t really get JVK’s point about the anger from living at home. In my experience this has more to do with the total social breakdown of family roles and the family unit than whatever society was telling us. I never got the message from society that he was arguing. It’s really a huge battle-of-the-sexes thing. Men don’t really lose any attraction to a woman if he finds out she’s still in her late twenties and lives at home. However women are more attracted to a man who’s left the nest since it’s a sign of independence on his part.

37:30 this is a huge bit of contributing. I’ve thought of this for a long time. Migration into the frontier is a huge breaking pattern. Again with Bruce Springsteen. And also something to do with Peter Pan. Notice Wendy in the song. Baby we were born to run. In the day we sweat it out on the streets Of a runaway American dream At night we ride through the mansions of glory In suicide machines Sprung from cages on Highway 9 Chrome wheeled, fuel injected, and steppin' out over the line Oh, baby this town rips the bones from your back It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap We gotta get out while we're young 'Cause tramps like us, baby, we were born to run Yes, girl, we were Wendy, let me in, I wanna be your friend I wanna guard your dreams and visions Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims And strap your hands 'cross my engines Together we could break this trap We'll run 'til we drop, baby, we'll never go back Oh, will you walk with me out on the wire? 'Cause, baby, I'm just a scared and lonely rider But I gotta know how it feels I want to know if love is wild Babe, I want to know if love is real Oh, can you show me Beyond the Palace, hemi-powered drones Scream down the boulevard Girls comb their hair in rearview mirrors And the boys try to look so hard The amusement park rises bold and stark Kids are huddled on the beach in the mist I wanna die with you, Wendy, on the street tonight In an everlasting kiss The highway's jammed with broken heroes On a last chance power drive Everybody's out on the run tonight But there's no place left to hide Together, Wendy, we can live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul Oh, someday, girl, I don't know when We're gonna get to that place Where we really wanna go and we'll walk in the sun But 'til then, tramps like us Baby, we were born to run Oh honey, tramps like us Baby, we were born to run Come on with me, tramps like us Baby, we were born to run

"Our journey has to be about each moment as well as the destination" Our entertainment seems to have reoriented towards long story arcs and away from episodic content. Cause? Effect? Irrelevant?

'The Quest for a Spiritual Home' might benefit from the flow of history & consciousness as Owen Barfield explicates it (i.e Original participation --> Idolatry --> Final Participation). The flow is micro-scaled in the Jonah and Abram and Pinocchio stories too... Something about Jonah being vomited out involuntarily, and Abram's call to voluntarily leave Haran and 'leave his father and mother and cling to his wife' feels like the death of original participation... Idolatry is risked until join your father in the belly of the whale. And something about 'rescuing your father from the belly of the whale' is like final participation (a return home). Father, Abba, are deeply homesick calls. I recently finished reading 'Saving the Appearances' so this is all fresh on the mind obviously...

Good convo, how does the Hobbit relate to the other mythologies about home? I've often thought of it as the great modern myth of the British nation in that it embodies the Anglo tendencies for both domesticity and restlessness.

the nones denomination

St. Andrew’s is a big space

Could you add another Jonathan, a Joan, and a Jean to make the names more varied?

How to say this. . . Can the mailing list be informed of OTHER people coming, so I can study up on their views if posted on KZfaq or other platforms? The variety of those coming covers a lot of thought based traditions!

I'm noticing a proliferation of owls in the background

22:30 what happened 4 weeks ago?

The “class” thing is a big deal Paul. The blue collar wants something to DO with all of this

You couldn’t pay me to go back to CA even for a conference like this lol. The only reason I’ll go back is to move my mother out of there. Will you be recording the conference and posting it online? I’ve just been too traumatized by the totalitarianism in LA. I don’t want to go back. It’s irrational but my husband also agrees with me. Maybe one day I will stop being so disturbed by what happened.

And oddly. The way was paved by a homeless man

I hope I get the opportunity to ask you to pull my finger in person soon

+

1:04 “Murderous resentment”. Yep.

“Where Corn Don’t Grow” is another Country song (several artists do good versions) all about the home, quest for greener pasture, and missing what you have/had.

Will we have a silent auction for fund raising?

“For wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them.”

John and Jonathan keep saying things that match on a physical concordance level with Ukraine. Home falling apart while being told by Christ "This day toy will be with me in paradise." The idea of orienting toward the horizon...........they are constantly surveying the horizon for incoming missiles. Jonathan P at 51:55, " There 's an explosion happening before our very eyes." And if JBP pointed these things out people would be talking about his mind-blowing insights, but from a non-clone they get dismissed as....ho-hum, nothing to see here. And whose home is Kiev, the Dunbas, Crimea, etc? Home, home, home. Is it the Ukrainians home or home to a Greater Russia and Holy Mother Church and Greater Russian Truth ( Dugin and his dead daughter ) ? Explosions before our very eyes, tell that to Mr. Dugin. Would he trade God for his dead daughter if he had to emigrate to a ...........new home............in Sacramento next to Living Stones and the homeless crowd around the Church?

1. What was the function of the protein that was first coded by RNA or DNA from which a selection could be made? 2. If the fewest genes that a cell can have to sustain life is around 400 but it has to have additional DNA to have reproductive function how can RNA or DNA have primacy ? 3. If a flatworm can be multiploidy and maintain function and morphology how does DNA have primacy? 4. How is it that a cockroach and rats can reproduce, after nuclear radiation,with mutations such that they become multi ploidy in order to maintain morphology and function and RNA or DNA have primacy or a selective function? 5. Why are a dog and a Tasmanian wolf or completely different genetic plants nearly identical? To what are they “converging “?

I'm looking forward to the 2024 Consciousness and Conscience Conference in Kiev, Ukraine: Is Orthodoxy Eating Itself? .......Does Anyone Care?.........Bring Your Own Body-Armour and Gas-mask............Be There Or Be In A Safe-Space!

"Au" (metaphors are nice)

Well, well, well, if it isn't HI THIS IS PAUL

@1:01:41, where Katheryn is talking culture, fruit away from tree, etc, if you forgive the twangy genre, song by Eric Church “Homeboy” hits on this theme of true self wayward brother tries isn’t bringing him life: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rd5dl7ikzZyzhGw.html

Jonathan'a children are immersed, drawn to what? He was unintelligible at that moment. 51:28

Time is fractal and seen by some as references of the reflections of the past, present and future together. We live as it were in the garden of Eden. To eat from the tree of knowledge is death. Which is why: Until Consilience phronesis. When Consilience only phronesis. We learn from our history that we destroy ourselves by our knowledge when the knowledge is the truth claim over wisdom. Love and wisdom. The wisdom to love. The wisdom to stand strong against the destruction we harness, we restrain, bridle, in ourselves to ourselves and all life. The song of self reverberates in the minimal surfaces of the grandest of surfaces, temporarily generated by an instrument perceiving as a finite one but entangled ( unbounded Mandelbrot) with the unbounded ♾ one. The heavens or hells we create in this shell are the heavens and hells we relflex on ourselves. The light is infinite and eternal. Relativity - at the speed of light time is one and entangled with light. Light is a thing moving as fast as such a thing can move and subsequently time for light relative to other things is timeless. Conversely time to non light is effectively ( relatively to light) eternally long. Hell is remembering the wrongs Resonance of matrices Beyond all time Beginnings Beyond all beginnings Endings Beyond Never-nothing Ever -something Beyond all complexity Reiterating Beyond all structure Fractals Beyond all matter Substance Beyond all substance Resonance Beyond all resonance Vibration Beyond all darkness Light Beyond all knowing Awareness Beyond all language Communication Beyond all communication Life Beyond all existing Experience Beyond all consciousness Resonant matrices

john you look different! hope you got GOD in your life,because everything else is just bullshit!

I really appreciate this conversation. Will this event be accessible on line?

I have redacted this comment of mine for possibly being in bad form