The Religiosity of Protest and the Meta-political w/ Jonathan Pageau - Voices with Vervaeke

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John Vervaeke

John Vervaeke

3 жыл бұрын

I am joined in dialogos with Jonathan Pageau, author of the Symbolic world, to talk about the latent religiosity of the current wave of protests.
The Symbolic World: / pageaujonathan
Two relevant videos by Jonathan:
• Why The Protests Look ...
• Casting Down Images
This is part of my series Voices with Vervaeke: Science, Spirituality, and the Meaning Crisis.
You can support my work on Patreon, with the proceeds going into the research I do at the University of Toronto on the Meaning Crisis and the cultivation of wisdom here: / johnvervaeke
Join the Discord Server to discuss and reflect upon my work: / discord

Пікірлер: 62
@michaelparsons3007
@michaelparsons3007 3 жыл бұрын
I see Jonathan Pageau I click.
@lisaonthemargins
@lisaonthemargins 3 жыл бұрын
Jonny P and Jonny V
@thevulgarhegelian4676
@thevulgarhegelian4676 3 жыл бұрын
Both of you masterfully handle such sensitive topices with such great art, both of you pulling and embodying ancient wisdom into todays language is so greatly needed. John your work is inspiring reaching out with the greatest of humanity inspiring me to do the same. Thank you as well for ongoing daily meditation you live what you preach and it is a thing of Beauty much need for us these days
@matfar100
@matfar100 3 жыл бұрын
Well said Andrew p
@MatthewJohnCrittenden
@MatthewJohnCrittenden 3 жыл бұрын
The best bit is between 0:00 and 1:28:01. Bring the follow up 3 way conversation on!
@daNihilism
@daNihilism 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for that conclusion. I have been eagerly awaiting the PVK / Vervaeke / Pageua talk. And I feel that in time, Anderson Todd will turn this into a harmonious quartet.
@alisaruddell3484
@alisaruddell3484 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you, John, for being open about the hurts of your past religious experience, and being willing to bring that into the dialogue. Like you and Jonathon, I experienced some similar things, and I’m a subscriber to both of your channels because you both help me move forward into charity and wisdom (and away from bitterness and premature closure). Many thanks to you both! This was such a fruitful and insightful conversation. Hope to see many more in the future.
@shari6063
@shari6063 3 жыл бұрын
Always a learning experience for me when you two get together. Thank you for the ideas and thoughts but, more so, thank you for modelling respectful conversation.
@dannyjquinn880
@dannyjquinn880 3 жыл бұрын
I love when you two converse.
@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994
@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994 3 жыл бұрын
This is a wonderfully edifying and insightful dialog. Looking forward to the upcoming conversation with both of you and PVK. Thank you.
@logoimotions
@logoimotions 3 жыл бұрын
This was a useful deepening of the discussion. Helping us explore deeper. Thanks men
@GRIFFIN1238
@GRIFFIN1238 3 жыл бұрын
A fantastic conversation.
@kimartella7670
@kimartella7670 3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely fantastic guys, what a home run discussion.
@julesjgreig
@julesjgreig 3 жыл бұрын
Best dialogos of 2020. Thanks gentlemen.
@ddod7236
@ddod7236 3 жыл бұрын
Boy do I love it when these 2 get together. One of the very best things about it, is the modeling of respectfulness and how to have an actual conversation.
@glircom
@glircom 3 жыл бұрын
For anyone else who couldn't quite catch it, René Girard is the philosopher that Jonathon mentions at 1:13:32. I couldn't understand myself what he was saying, but I found him by googling the "infinite victimhood" quote.
@AexisRai
@AexisRai 2 жыл бұрын
The example, around 56:00, of "getting rid of sleep", is seemingly presented as a _reductio ad absurdum,_ essentially to suggest that it is simply _obvious_ that the human has patterns of being that cannot ever truly be excised from it. I understand that JP has no reason to try to argue this rigorously to JV in this friendly context. But the true opposition in question is precisely those who are willing to _bite the whole bullet_ of that denial of nature, indeed right down to eliminating the need to sleep. EDIT: JV does somewhat address this at 59:00.
@ShannonBoschy
@ShannonBoschy 3 жыл бұрын
Loved this connection to “Original Sin.” Brilliant. How do we ritualistically and symbolically find a way to draw a line in time that means forgiveness of the past so that we can all move forward in constructive ways instead of being driven by this puritanism?
@Keeronin
@Keeronin 3 жыл бұрын
That’s Christ.
@ShannonBoschy
@ShannonBoschy 3 жыл бұрын
Keenan it was Christ 2000 years ago, but in a globally connected world, in a secular society, with a group of people (the cancel cult) who have no charity or forgiveness, who will terrorize anyone who suggests the oppressive patriarchal structure of Christianity, I don’t think putting Christ forward is the solution to this problem. From a purely archetypal perspective, maybe this implies the necessity of a second coming, but this would require that this figure bring an entirely different model/map; a new narrative psycho-technology. (Not associated with Christianity or patriarchal religion
@johnv1176
@johnv1176 3 жыл бұрын
@@ShannonBoschy My answer is astrologically focused. I think purity in the past was symbolised by baptism by holy water, water that is not lacking, and without sin. I think a transition to a next age is underway and has been for a while. if there's a next jesus I don't believe they will be a "Christ", meaning they won't be an anointed one. I believe we are doing better than the party tricks of christ that are now moving to the background, and christ said something like that himself. "Baptism" if we must use the word is now of air/spirit on an individual and global level. Individually we're doing deep breathing meditations as an example rather than opting for the holy water. Globally there will be less reliance on oil/coal and more on energy production without fumes. Aquarius is first saturnian (teacher), then uranian (freedom from habits). Piscean age saw two fish in opposing directions, good and evil. With Virgo opposing as the virgin (purity and service). Aquarian age has Leo the Lion as polarity (courage, everyone as a royal gift in progressing), and we will see Aquarius (integration and individuation, greater attainment of self and collective wisdom through science, freedom from clockwork and bad habits. The lifting of humanity from suffering, venturing to other planets, and more.)
@ShannonBoschy
@ShannonBoschy 3 жыл бұрын
elnombre sambal A fellow student of Astrology. Nice to meet you. My thoughts here are simple in their respects. The unconscious mind loves ritual. A sacred ritual, as opposed to a profane one, marks something in time. Draws a line. How do we observe and mark the transition from one stage to another as a society, when looking at the brutality and injustice of our past? How do we demonstrate to ourselves and to others that we orient ourselves towards meaning in a compassionate way? In theory, even convicted criminals who pay their debt to society, can achieve a state of forgiveness. The SJW woke mobs don’t extend to the “oppressors”m such a dignity. How do we ritualize this forgiveness at an individual level and how do we set a benchmark for others to meet to demonstrate their shift into a new way of being in the world? How do we release the white guilt we are told to feel for ourselves if we feel a sense of shame and guilt; and as a society I think all of the things you remind us of are important.
@johnv1176
@johnv1176 3 жыл бұрын
@@ShannonBoschy Hi Shannon, nice to meet you too. I think we should acknowledge the negative but focus on the positive we have achieved and are further wanting to achieve. We strengthen relationships by having positive experiences together. The joy outshines the suffering. As individuals we shouldn't focus on guilt, rather we should focus on what we want to create and keep experimenting with what will work. If there's a line or ritual that we abide by most, it's our calendar. We can acknowledge and celebrate more days on our calendar, like actually celebrate them, have major festivals, take days off. Or perhaps we can reconsider how our calendar is laid out altogether.
@ckahlquist2129
@ckahlquist2129 3 жыл бұрын
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Amen. What a great conversation.
@williamjmccartan8879
@williamjmccartan8879 2 жыл бұрын
Maybe a conversation with John Woods Jr,, linguist John McWhorter, Thomas Sowell, Coleman Hughes, Daniel Schmachtenberger, Lex Fridman, there are lots of other talented thinkers out there, expaind the conversation. Great discussion
@matthewparlato5626
@matthewparlato5626 Жыл бұрын
Lex or D.S. or Coleman would be epic!!
@leedufour
@leedufour 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Jonathan and John.
@johnvervaeke
@johnvervaeke 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Lee.
@WhiteStoneName
@WhiteStoneName 3 жыл бұрын
1:01:00 Pageau brings up holiness and Sabbath and rest in relation to Rationalism/Reason and the New Atheists (I would say rationalist, foundationanlist Christians also): Reason is a patterning system. And can never be complete. You have go leave something out. You can't close the edges. "It can't encompass everything." It's a totalizing system. "It's the sin of Satan. Pride." I would say that you cannot close the fringe in *in an articulable way*. This is why mysticism and iconography are so important. I emphasize: *There is a way of seeing and knowing, which is not based in epistemology, or consciously articulable Intellect.* I would argue that this is what Karl Rahner meant by "The Christian of the future will be a mystic or not at all." We need to stop intellectually scapegoating the New Atheists for their worship of Reason as a totalizing system. They learned it from the Christian West.
@robertva7511
@robertva7511 3 жыл бұрын
Reading through Ecclesiastes lately. "Remember God, remember death," very apropos.
@misael8200
@misael8200 3 жыл бұрын
Wow, indeed
@Secretname951
@Secretname951 Жыл бұрын
It’s not always easy to catch the names of the thinkers mentioned if one isn’t already familiar with their names and sometimes even if one is!
@weltraumaffe4155
@weltraumaffe4155 3 жыл бұрын
JV, you nailed what I've been feeling as well. It's like reliving the Original Sin kid thing. "But I didn't do anything!" It's not just for Protestants. The nuns at Catholic school pushed an unspoken version of Original Sin that boys were stained with but girls were not.
@socraticsceptic8047
@socraticsceptic8047 3 жыл бұрын
Great thanks...
@tracywilliamsliterature
@tracywilliamsliterature 3 жыл бұрын
Such a helpful discussion in view of our current global situation... it really helped clear up my reactions to Floyd, covid and personal aspirations... Mr Pageau may have invited a new respect in me for Christianity.
@FabioFerrari8
@FabioFerrari8 3 жыл бұрын
I loved the message of hope about how things go from one extreme to the other extreme. Is there a way to have cultivation of wisdom back as a virtue as soon as possible?
@Keeezzz
@Keeezzz 3 жыл бұрын
This is so interesting
@dsuleyma
@dsuleyma 3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant. So this will be like a weekly thing you guys do now right??
@WhiteStoneName
@WhiteStoneName 3 жыл бұрын
Most simply, in Western Christianity, sin is the enemy. In Eastern, death is the enemy (problem). Differentiating between sin and death is important. Exactly. “Sin brings forth death.” & “For all have sinned”. We’re all in the same boat. “No man is good. No one seeks God.” But we’ve been reconciled in Christ. Which leads us out of endless sacrifice and scapegoating of the “sinners”.
@hakayma7560
@hakayma7560 3 жыл бұрын
bravo
@weltraumaffe4155
@weltraumaffe4155 3 жыл бұрын
At 45:30 JV starts talking about a Greek idea that goes with justice, but I can't make out the words. Anyone, what is the word he is saying. The closed caption says Sophism, but that can't be right.
@AexisRai
@AexisRai 2 жыл бұрын
it's "Sophrosyne".
@matthewparlato5626
@matthewparlato5626 Жыл бұрын
@@AexisRai thx
@socraticsceptic8047
@socraticsceptic8047 3 жыл бұрын
In regard to the interesting concept of death and mortality brought up in this conversation... have been reflecting on the often noted (but not fully explained) characterisation of the modern world as involving a rejection of death or really just ignoring it. If death is destruction and life a form of generation or maintenance, and we can also say that Becoming is Generation, then we see that we don't have a concept of de-Becoming! What is the opposite of Becoming? Not Being surely ... why don't we have the equivalent world to relate Destruction to Being... e.g the move from non-Being to Being is Becoming, but what is the move from Being to non-Being called?... so does this highlight even further our ignore-ance of death?
@mariannemoroney2922
@mariannemoroney2922 3 жыл бұрын
The societal solution, at the beginning most definitely would have been beneficial had the political leaders lead with outrage and empathy. I believe the rioting was a vomiting up of repressed anger, real or imagined, but it manifested instantaneous because the correct response to the series of injustices were always cloaked in victim shaming instead of outrage for the evil, ignorant and racial acts that were perpetrated.
@amal-ti2zz
@amal-ti2zz 3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting talk John you said "Cartesian well" at one point- did you mean an artestian well, which is a common misspelling, or are you referring to a well of thought equivalent to the realm of abstraction Descartes was in when he bore "I think therefore I am?"
@landscapesforlearning82
@landscapesforlearning82 3 жыл бұрын
studying trauma and reading Tibetan book of the living and the dead....and this video. The internet obviously led me here
@daNihilism
@daNihilism 3 жыл бұрын
That Terry Crews interview on Lemon was brutal...
@KiraKroger
@KiraKroger 3 жыл бұрын
I'm having trouble understanding the concept of soferson (sp?) justice. My Google searches aren't finding anything relevant so I'm wondering if my spelling is way off. Thanks!
@johnmartin2813
@johnmartin2813 3 жыл бұрын
Sophrosine.
@Adaerus
@Adaerus 3 жыл бұрын
56:52 I wonder what the commentary would be in light of the Capitol riot. How come religion did not save the right from behaving just like the revolutions aforementioned?
@Adaerus
@Adaerus 3 жыл бұрын
"[T]he left remembers faith and forgets virtue when the right remembers virtue and forgets faith". Please allow me this variation: "the left acts faith and proclaims virtue and the right acts virtue and proclaims faith". The extremes are manifesting in the failure to match one's actions with one's claims.
@AexisRai
@AexisRai 2 жыл бұрын
Listen again from 44:10 . John isn't saying "faith", he's saying "fate". "[The left is really sensitive to the fact that] human beings are really subject to fate. That there is just shitty things that happen to human beings because they're finite and they're limited, and the world is an overwhelming machine, and there's historical forces and material forces - you might even say powers and principalities at work, right? And people are just subject."
@Adaerus
@Adaerus 2 жыл бұрын
@@AexisRai It's ambiguous, but sure it can be "fate" not "faith". Either way I still want to make the point exactly how I made it.
@ellerydonald8755
@ellerydonald8755 3 жыл бұрын
I don’t think it’s really equating to original sin. I think it’s more of an acknowledgment that we DO in fact benefit from a system that actively oppresses people of colour.
@really-._.-
@really-._.- 3 жыл бұрын
They want the realization of God on earth. They are repulsed by the burden of truth seekers. They demand a tyrant, even if that means the subjugation of their fellow men. The righteous expression of god must not be poisoned. When I say they, I am referring to those woke zealots. When I say God, I am referring to their "rational" God, the State.
@ellerydonald8755
@ellerydonald8755 3 жыл бұрын
also “trans inclusive” isn’t that hard of a concept to grasp. it’s...... being inclusive to trans people.
@MattFRox
@MattFRox 3 жыл бұрын
I would agree with Pageau that secular religiosity is a real thing and a real problem but his solution of leaning into it with rites and ritual is absurd. To combat it, there needs to be a recommitment to true liberal (classical not political definition) first principles and methodology, the most important of which is the market place of ideas.
@jstanley011
@jstanley011 3 жыл бұрын
What the hell church did Vervaeke go to? Assuming that all evangelical churches, much less all Protestant churches, are that extreme would be incorrect. You're not going to be doing yourselves any favors by constructing a straw man.
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