There is a story that one of the nurses overheard him confess his guilt (possibly in front of his lawyers) but was not allowed to testify in court due to confidentiality. If this story involves your grandmother, that would be fascinating...

@@scottvance74 I chatted with her briefly about what she remembered from the experience, but she didn't mention anything about that. She said he was very quiet, quite shy. Didn't say much. But she did also say she was his personal nurse, and (according to her recollection) she was the only nurse allowed to see him. So if that happened, it probably would have happened to her. That said, I'm thinking it's probably just a rumor.

@@davidsnell2605 Thanks for asking. I just looked it up (pp 70-75 in "Salamander by Signature Books). It is unclear that she heard anything, but the lawyers were arguing over whether or not she could testify. At one point he asked to make a statement and she informed him of his right to a lawyer if the book is right. Evidently she was later allowed to testify (but may have not done so because the trial ended in a plea bargain). Sounds like a stressful couple of days with all of the police around and Hoffman being in somewhat critical condition.

@@scottvance74 Thanks for looking that up! Very interesting indeed. Yeah I don't think my grandmother ever testified in court (I imagine that would have been something she would have remembered) but fascinating nonetheless. Crazy times.

This is indeed a fun fact.

My pleasure!

Olan Rogers and Styx are both wonderful gifts to this planet haha.

Thanks for the idea!

They just did!

I wonder how much cool stuff we'd find if we just went door-knocking in Nauvoo and asked to sift through peoples' old basement boxes.

When someone makes a once-in-a-lifetime document discovery (unpublished Dickinson poem, Twain letter, Abe Lincoln, etc.) EVERY MONTH. Yeah, that is suspicious.

Yes...why didn't God let Isaac know he was not blessing Esau? Hmmm...

Mmmm, I don't think so, personaly I heard for 20 years all the leaders talk about how to live to have the spirit and how the spirit show you the true, and how they are living prophets with the priesthood keys and bla bla bla.

@@miguelsolares6520 Sounds like you have "bla bla bla"-ed yourself right out of the church.

What a great way to spin things.

But doesnt scripture say that the prophets have the power of discernment?

@@michaellopez4746 That doesn't mean they have the power to discern all things at all times. They can only discern what God sees fit for them to know. God allows us our agency, which means He often won't intervene when evil people do evil things.

@@amonk32 don't you think that's a bit convenient?

@@amonk32 also just like any lawyer you want the best representation right. Well I'd assume God would too and yet he seems to have hired a regular person with no supernatural gifts. You hear of all these specific types of miracles including ones done by prophets and yet the ones we have today are honestly full of crap. It's all bs. I literally sat in a class just a few months ago cause I support my LDS friends, and they were literally teaching an idea on anti church material and the method they taught was practically cognitive dissonance by definition. I was completely shocked that nobody realized what they were saying. Even the person talking likely had no clue. It's really sad. I had to leave but of course I didn't. Say anything. Leaving the church can be both liberating and hard because of the people that you leave behind which most won't stay in your life outside of trying to get you back.

D&C 10:37

Why didn't God let Isaac(a prophet) know that it was not Esau he was blessing? Mysterious ways...

Why would he take away the learning opportunity?

Ok y’all, to each their own. Thanks for your responses.

YESSSS

They just did!

Yes Joseph Smith totally was a master con man

If you believe Hoffman then you are gullible

@@noodle860 The motives which I propose for Hoffman are not something that I have come up with, but rather that of various reporters who investigated the matter for years. I recommend that you read "Salimander" by Sillitoe and Roberts. Indeed as you note, given what we know about Hoffman one would tend to discount anything which he said as more than likely false. This propensity for deception can be found in others as well.

George McBride Dallin H. Oaks believed it. He defended it in a talk or something titled “Reading Church History.” Do you think he’s gullible?

That is not the claim the LDS Church makes. The claim is that Heavenly Father gives them instructions at times, not that they have a 24 hour zoom connection.

@@jj18057 I do not think you understand the concept of a truth claim in logical syllogisms.

Just watched it. I loved it. Wasn’t really a slight to the Church

Jokes on you. They just reviewed it and liked it!

I'm not really familiar with LDS lore. At the beginning of the documentary I was so confused if the freakout with the letter was that there was a salamander or that it was white. The whole thing would be hilarious if Hoffman didn't kill people to try to cover his forgeries up....

@@KittyKraftStudio The freak out was more that the details in the salamander letter seemed to contradict details of the origin of the church as recorded and taught by the founder/first prophet, Joseph Smith. I also agree - it's unfortunate he resorted to murder.

It's possible. After all, we are talking about information from the creator of the universe. On the other hand, it's probably not that often it happens. For an instance, it wasn't untill a couple of millenia from when it was written that it was revealed through Joseph that the song of Solomon is "not inspired". Why does it happen? I don't know but I certain that it has higher spiritual benefits for us in one way or the other

Durante Angelo: what does it mean for a document to be “inspired?”

@@seans5289 it means given by divine guidance

Durante Angelo: So, you’re saying the Song of Solomon wasn’t given by divine guidance, and Joseph Smith was able to discern this by divine guidance. Are other books of scripture also not given by divine guidance?

@@seans5289 I think the Twilight series is a good candidate ;).

Well, it helps when they say, "Thus saithe the Lord..." Revelation from the days of Joseph until now has followed a clear pattern. It has never been every stray comment. It is no different than Joseph being mislead by John Bennet. We can claim they talk for God without believing they are His sock puppets.

Why does a doctor always suggest getting a second opinion if he's an expert? What's the point of trusting a doctor if you can never be sure if he's making the right call for you? Because you work with what you've got; that's a principle the Lord wants us to learn. Speaking of uncertainty and second opinions, that's essentially what Gordon B Hinckley said; he said something like "the documents are probably real, but we still don't know 100% for sure." The Lord didn't see fit to reveal the hoax yet because experts were going to discover it anyway. (That's how the Lord works; he leaves many, many things to mankind to work out for themselves so they can learn and grow.) Hinckley basically said "they're real, but don't quote me on that" because he knew the belief that the documents were real was from an imperfect scientific process, not from the Lord. If he said, in so many words, "don't quote me on this", let's do him a favor and not quote him on it.

Glad it was helpful!

😀

They just made a video responding to the documentary!

U worship a transgender named Odin

I think the "white salamander" had connections to folk magic while the talking snake is just a poor translation and understanding of ancient Hebrew.

You make an excellent point, Mark. Definitely begs the question about how many doccuments that are currently believed to be authentic are not. And subsequentally how many people now hold fervent belief systems based upon them.

Do you feel the same about the FBI and Smithsonian Institute who were also fooled? They were not tricked easily, but by arguably the greatest document forger in the history of the United States.

@@brettmajeske3525 I expect the FBI, Smithsonian, AJ Miller (the Australian “Jesus”), Catholics, Muslims, etc. to be wrong just as often as nonreligious people. The difference is that Mormons claim to be the one and only true church of God. I was taught for years that the reason Mormonism is so great is because they have prophets and continuing revelation who have a direct line to god. I no longer believe in Mormon woo woo, so it makes perfect sense to me that the bombings couldn't be stopped or Mormons leaders can be fooled. See the book, “Mormonism and the Majic World View.”

@@quacks2much Well you are adding to what the LDS claims concerning Prophecy and Revelation actually are. Both the Doctrine and Covenants and the various teachings of the Presidents of Church make very clear that Prophets have the same direct line as every other member. Everyone who is worthy and faithful has the identical right to revelation as the Prophet. The Prophet still needs to pray, fast, and study out the matter before receiving revelation. It is not a superpower used to fight crime, which seems to be the assumption. You act like the LDS claim is that the Prophet has a divine earbud with God providing a 24/7 commentary. That is not, and has never been the claim. Angels and visions are rare, they communicate doctrine and expound the gospel. The Hoffman papers were a matter of historical curiosity. While the First Presidency did authorize the spending of funds, they did based on the recommendations of the Church's History Department. After purchase, they spent more time and money investigating claims. The whole time it was treated as a scholastic endeavor not a religious one.

@@brettmajeske3525 Quite simply, you don't know what the Mormon prophets have taught. The church teaches much more woo woo than you are claiming. I am one of those gluttons for punishment who read the Four Standard Works a few times, and grew up as a Mormon and I was taught way different than you in seminary and priesthood meeting. I rarely even missed a church meeting. We were taught things like we should never turn down a calling because church leaders (”the Lord’s annointed”) are inspired of god. We were taught to follow the prophet because he (it's always a he) will never lead us astray (there are conflicting teachings both ways). We were taught that Mormon prophets actually meet with Jesus in the Temples. Further, the Mormons are so inconsistent that it's easy to pick and choose almost anything you want to believe. For example, I was taught, and it is in the Book of Mormon, that Native Americans’ skin would turn white and their personalities would become “delightsome.” The church has tampered with the Book of Mormon, so that Native Americans will now supposedly become “pure and delightsome.” I was actually taught in a priesthood meeting (before the first moon landing) that the Mormon prophet said we would never go to the moon, and I read it in the priesthood manual of the day (I’m a dummy, I read my dad’s priesthood manuals). My dad taught me that Adam was god from Brigham Young teachings in the Journal of Discources, but later refuted by the church. My dad taught me things like blood atonement and a hate for blacks who dared marry one of his 7 children. I’m fortunate that the area where I lived (Tacoma, Washington and Quincy, Washington), the public schools taught me how bad racism is, and racism thus didn’t stick. As for personal revelation, members only get that alleged revelation for themselves and their family. A Mormon prophet supposedly gets it for the whole church. My patriarchal blessing actually had a “prophecy” about me. It failed spectacularly. I will post it someday, to show the kinds of woo woo the Mormon church engages in. It is on paper about 50 years old, typed on an old, manual typwriter that had a fading ribbon. It threatened my early literal death, a much unappreciated prophecy for a 15 year old kid. I didn't think much of it at that age because I thought I would be a Mormon all my life, but as I started realizing the Mormon church was a fraud, it worried me some until I realized I was fully convinced the Mormon church is an abusive cult-type religion, especially for some people (for example, gays). I recommend listening to Radio Free Mormon’s podcast. He is a former Mormon missionary and a lawyer who knows his stuff.

@@quacks2much “Quite simply, you don't know what the Mormon prophets have taught.” I am fairly conversant with many of the controversies. The issue is how one defines “the Church”. There are many personal opinions and cultural traditions floating around, often mutually exclusive from each other. I know a Gospel Doctrine teacher who preferred using McConkie’s ‘Mormon Doctrine’ instead of the official materials, was he teaching what ‘the Church’ instructed him to? Obviously not. It bothers me when ex-members claim ‘the Church’ taught X, Y, or Z because that is what their parents or some teacher taught them, even when it contradicts official policy and canon doctrine. I have never understood why people trust books written and published years before someone was ordained an Apostle more than what that same person taught after becoming an Apostle or Prophet. “The church teaches much more woo woo than you are claiming. I am one of those gluttons for punishment who read the Four Standard Works a few times, and grew up as a Mormon and I was taught way different than you in seminary and priesthood meeting.” So if I understand you correctly, you are claiming you recognize what you were taught by teachers in your ward did not agree with the Doctrines contained in the Standard Works? I can understand why the would be disconcerting. Not everyone experienced that. “We were taught things like we should never turn down a calling because church leaders (”the Lord’s annointed”) are inspired of god.” Well I was taught we should follow Joseph’s instructions and pray for confirmation with every calling. The default would be to accept certainly, but that it is always appropriate to share concerns with the person extending the call. Both my parents were born and raised in Michigan, and were both converts. Before I was born my Dad was offered a job in Idaho. My mother was extended a calling as Chorister for the Primary. She could neither read music notation, play the piano, or was familiar with any of the songs. She was blessed that her mother-in-law had been a professional singer and Choir Director (even after my Grandmother joined the Church she was still conducting a choir at another church down the street for several years). Jump 10 years later, my parents had returned to Michigan and my Father was serving as in a bishopric. He extended a call to be a pianist. The person accepted the call without mentioning they didn’t know how to play the piano. An issue that could have been resolved was not because of fear of speaking out. He shared with us children the importance of humility and honesty. Several times he had been inspired to offer callings to people unqualified for the position. By the time he was called as a Bishop himself, he had learned that the inspiration to call someone was often more about the contact than the calling. Talking with people about their concerns for one Calling who lead to more inspiration on how to help them. Such was in complete consistency with the Handbook of Instructions. In the years since my mother was extended that first Calling, she has grown to love the primary songs and music in general. All of her children learned the basics of piano. As frustrating as it was to depend on others to help her through, she learned and grew. “We were taught that Mormon prophets actually meet with Jesus in the Temples.” You make it sound like it is a privilege only available to the Prophet? The Keys of the Ministering of Angels belong to the Office of Deacon. The historical records of the Church indicate that Angelic visits occur more often than Divine. Joseph Smith only recorded five instances of seeing the Savior. Most of his instruction was from Angels. In the records since his time that pattern seems to have held true. I certainly admit that the culture of the Church implies all Revelation is accompanied by Theophany, in spite of the teachings of the Prophets themselves. Both in Scripture, and in the teachings of the Presidents themselves is a different message. Communion with the Savior does not require His physical presence. Sometimes faith is rewarded with such a witness, but it is just a likely to be a humble Nursery Leader as an Apostle or Prophet. Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F Smith, David O McKay, Spencer W Kimball, all recorded experiences of miraculous manifestations. Kimball wrote extensively on receiving Revelation and the importance of humility in doing so. When asked if he talked with God, his answer was, “Yes, every night when I kneel down to pray.” He was insistent that everyone could have the same relationship with Jesus that he did. “Further, the Mormons are so inconsistent that it's easy to pick and choose almost anything you want to believe.” There are a lot of inconsistent traditions and interpretations. Most of which were never official. The Journal of Discourses was never a Church publication. George Watts owned the copyright, and recent evidence shows he often made changes to the sermons he published. McConkie published Mormon Doctrine over a decade before becoming an Apostle. “I was actually taught in a priesthood meeting (before the first moon landing) that the Mormon prophet said we would never go to the moon, and I read it in the priesthood manual of the day (I’m a dummy, I read my dad’s priesthood manuals).” I would be very interested in the exact quote. I have heard others make that claim, without ever providing a true citation. My father’s library only goes back to 1970. I have done internet searches looking for the quote, but none come up. “My dad taught me that Adam was god from Brigham Young teachings in the Journal of Discourses, but later refuted by the church.” That refutation happened during the Presidency of John Taylor, the third Prophet. George Watt’s, the editor and publisher of the Journal, was excommunicated. Unlike urban legend, he was never a personal secretary to Brigham Young, although he was a friend. Watt was a reporter for the publication that became the Salt Lake Tribune. The Journal was published independently from the Church and Watt earned all the profits from its sale. Taylor, Woodruff, and Snow would all go on to claim that the Journal misunderstood Young’s teachings. Even during the days of Brighm Young it was never an official publication. Yet even though many of the Journal’s teachings were refuted by every Prophet after Young, for some strange reason it persisted. Your father was not the only one who chose to treat George Watt as more reliable than the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price, or even General Conference talks from living Prophets. That would be on your father’s head, not the Church. “As for personal revelation, members only get that alleged revelation for themselves and their family. A Mormon prophet supposedly gets it for the whole church.” Yes that is the only difference described in Scripture. Both still need to seek Revelation through study, fasting, and prayer. The D&C specifically states that Revelation doesn’t just come, and that was specifically dealing with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

@@stelladavis7832 exmo got to exmo

@@stelladavis7832 I'd love to have your source on those documents being bought with tithing money. I hadn't heard that before and would be quite surprised if that were actually the case.

@@davidsnell2605 I haven't read it in a while, but the book "Salamander" written by some of the reporter who covered the story for the SLC tribune is a pretty good and factual account. The documents were acquired in at least two ways: 1) direct purchase and 2) through intermediaries under the direction of Hinckley and Pinegar. Hoffman was given money by the LDS church both directly and through intermediaries who were instructed by Mormon leaders to purchase the said documents. I believe strongly that attempts were made to acquire documents indirectly to allow for plausible deniability. The church had been burned in the past including at least one incident in the 1970s with someone who claimed to have some ancient plates. In some cases during the 1983-1985 period the church did deny that they had the said documents. Keep in mind, this was after Arrington was shut down as the church historian and sent packing to BYU. It was also after Bushman's first book was rejected by several apostles and they had to cancel the new history publications slated for the early 80s. Bushman would go on to publish this with a scholarly press. Anyhow, this was a period of closing the vaults, possibly as a reaction to the relatively open period between 1972 -1982. According to a private source, in about 1990 the church would acquire the green seer stone via a donation made by Hinckley's private lawyer at his request. That seer stone still hasn't seen the light of day, so the practice of purchasing and burring artifacts continues to go on it seems. On the other hand, the JS papers project is awesome and a sign of openness.

S Vance: You’re killing it in all of these comments, dude.

book of mormon even shows the nephites had hardened their hearts when being taught by sons of mosiah more than the lamanites

I do not understand this comment. If not normal than what?

Money is harder to forge than documents.

That is not how revelation works, read the D&C.

Exactly. He was crazy.

Just like Noah and Moses and just about every other prophet.....people never thought they were crazy.

Really. LDS Doctrine is that they are ordinary men, with extraordinary callings. A Prophet has the same right to Revelation as a Nursery Leader, just a broader range of responsibilities. In the D&C Joseph Smith is constantly being called to repentance because of his weakness. I talk to my father about once a month, that doesn't mean he tells me what to do about every single activity I engage in.

At the time the "authentic truth" was that Joseph translated the plates via the Urim and Thummim which were glasses attached to a breast plate. This "authentic truth" is a lie. The Book of Mormon was created using a seer stone in a hat. The forgeries were intended to get people to look into church history, and in this they were largely a failure. It took the internet and another 30 years before the church would openly talk about the seer stone (2013). And yes - claiming to have the "authentic truth" while lying through your teeth is in fact why the church has so many enemies.

I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

@@brettmajeske3525 yeah, pretty hard to comprehend.

@@brettmajeske3525 yeah, pretty hard to comprehend.

I thought so too!!!

Two thumbs up? I think it’s brilliant.

Anyone knows that you are bearing false witness at this point.

That is a a false dichotomy. Prophets have always been regular people, but that doesn't mean they are not also following the the directions of Christ. Just because a police officer is a regular person doesn't not mean there is not also a Police Chief directing them. The fact that there is a Police Chief doesn't mean that every action taken by every police officer is perfectly line with the will of that Chief. The President of the United States appoints Cabinet Secretaries, but they still have free will and moral agency to lead their respective organizations. When a player on a football makes a mistake, we do not blame the Principal who hired the coach who appointed the team captain. Not do we say, "That player made a mistake, their school must not have a Principal. See, the Coach is just an ordinary person." The LDS Church has never claimed infallibility for the Prophet or any of its leaders. We believe the Lord can use the weak things of the world to accomplish his purposes. We can Claim that Christ is the Head, without believing He is a micro-manager unwilling to let us make mistake so we can learn from them. Indeed, in LDS Doctrine, that was Satan's plan. The Atonement of Jesus Christ exists so we can make mistakes and then repent. The Lord give his servants general directives, and then lets utilize their own agency to figure out the best way to do so.

@@brettmajeske3525 Are you seriously comparing the mistake a regular person can make and the consequences of it, with the mistake a Prophet who talks in the name of God can make and the consequenses which that mistake may bring over all members of a Church. If the Leader of the Church can make any mistake even if He is not talking about irrelevant issues, what is the point of having a Prophet who receive direct rebelation from God? It is true that ancient prophets made mistakes, like David or Salomon by example, however those mistakes did not afect Gods purpose with his People.

@@albertjgv17 I do not understand your complaint. You admit that ancient Prophets were imperfect, then question what good is an imperfect modern Prophet? Prophets are normal people, the Lord asks everyone to be a Prophet in their own home. The US Ambassador to China is in regular contact with the US State Department, that doesn't mean the Ambassador con not make a mistake, and if grave enough be removed. It also doesn't mean if they are not removed after an error, that the President does not exist. You clearly do not understand what we mean by the word Prophet. The LDS Church has never claimed that level of perfection for its leaders.

Lol. Bruh hate to burst your bubble but the Bible is just as fake....