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I did a frustrated KZfaq search and stumbled on this

It's important to note that licensed psychotherapist and psychologists from CACREP accredited schools are taught the exact opposite definitions. Empathy requires the counselor "feel with" a client without becoming enmired/enmeshed. It is like coming alongside a person in the water after a shipwreck. Empathy requires we throw them a rope and a life preserver and guide them in how to use these tools to get in the boat. Sympathy requires I get in the water and do it for them. This is the definition in the textbooks I have read while in Seminary obtaining my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling.

What they’re describing as unhealthy/“unbiblical” is empathy without boundaries. Empathy is an emotional, social, and interpersonal skill we learn as young children that allows us to see things from others’ perspectives. If we can’t individuate ourselves from others, this will lead to inappropriate empathy and acting out in ways that are self harming. But it is not bad to experience empathy. Sympathy/compassion stem from the experiences empathy allows us to have.

Doug & Joe are missing a key point: a person can empathize with another person's emotions while not agreeing with that second person's positions or decisions. Empathy is about connecting with another person's emotions because, as we are all humans, we all draw from the same array of human emotions, even though our personal situations differ. Empathy is not about taking on that person's perspective - that would be "identification" not empathy. Empathy is about connecting with other people's emotions, relating to them on the level of feeling, in order to better understand them. Empathy is important for any positions that seek to provide support (pastors, therapists, social workers, etc.) so that the person they are helping sees/hears that someone understands what their pain or sorrow can feel like, to an extent. Because we've all felt pain or sorrow. Or joy or anger or fear or contentment, etc. Compassion is the essence of both sympathy and empathy. I fear that in their efforts to be anti-woke, Doug & Joe are purposely missing this crucial point. Further, "sympathy" does not mean you are holding out a hand to a person in the mire, hoping to pull them out. The word for that is literally "help". Rather, sympathy is seeing that person in the mire and saying that you feel sorry for their situation. Empathy would be saying that they can understand the overwhelming feeling that person is having, sinking in mire. Empathy does not mean jumping into the mire with them because being empathetic does not mean a person is taking on that person's identity - it means that they understand that feeling of being overwhelmed because they've been overwhelmed too. That said, neither empathy nor sympathy alone are appropriate for this person in the mire because then no one is being pulled out of that mire. Help is what is required. That was a real fail as an analogy.

I'm so glad to see other biblical Christians seeing through this and speaking up.

Commenting for the algorithm.

As a Mental Health professional who works with therapist, psychiatrists and psychologists and as a Christian woman, I can see the importance of understanding this distinction. Thank you! Pastor Doug you never disappoint! You are a treasure to the body of Christ!

I am grateful for this interview!

It is clear that empathy is not understood by the Desiring God community.

Just discovered Mr Wilson and so glad I did. Love your enthusiasm for speaking to all sides and the patience you show is staggering. I used to be an ardent atheist but didn't like the arrogance that I started noticing from people like Dawkins. So much more to religion then I thought. Not quite a believer in the one true God but getting closer. I particularly liked your analogy of learning a language and that if you want to believe then you have to expose yourself to it more. And that's what I'm doing.

This is a redefinition of empathy, and either confuses or pushes people away. Empathy is rooted in our biology. The problem is if that empathy isn’t tethered to anything outside of the person (I.e. scripture, truth) or the person emphasizing loses their sense of self.

This is too good. I recently came across Doug and I can’t get enough of his wisdom.

If you can get 9mins in, you’ll push past the title of this and understand what they are talking about. Phenomenal job.

Joe Rigney's The Things of the Earth is an eye opener for me. What a book! Thank you Canon Press for releasing this Man Rampant episode for free on KZfaq! God bless.

Galatians 6:2 King James Version 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. One does not have to compromise ethics to empathize.

I have to think 🤔 atleast four times before I ask an apology to my wife....man this is wonderful!!!

They define Empathy and Sympathy the opposite of how I learned it. Joe defined it without a biblical reference. I am not saying he has none but I want to hear it.

Conversations like this are why I'm not a Protestant anymore. There is no "sin of empathy." Empathy is what we are called to as Christians, or at least it used to be before we became a Prosperity seminar, a Trump sign and a bowl of Chicken Soup.

One of the best talks I have ever heard on being a Christian man, husband and citizen. Biblical wisdom in "plain talk" that even a man listening while working in his shop can understand, apply and teach. Thank you guys.

If I get it right, in empathy reason acquiesces to emotion, whereas, in sympathy reason shepherds emotion.

My definition of Empathy is simply putting yourself in one's shoes. You don't have to feel the same way, like be depressed or angry towards the person who wronged your friend. For example, you can still empathize with someone who lost a parent even if you haven't experience it. You simply need to imagine how it feels to lose a parent. Most times its hard to even empathize when you don't share the same experience, this is where 'sympathy' is more applicable. You can at least try to imagine how your friend feels though. You can empathize if if you actually lost a parent. Get it? Compassion on the other hand is simply empathy/sympathy + action (a desire to help). Empathy is NOT a sin brothers and sisters. Too much empathy IS, i guess.

I can't remember the last time i heard 2 men talk sense together. Thank you

I found this conversation to be fantastically supported and so well laid out. Wonderful episode. As the wife of a Christian man and the mother of a young boy who we are raising according to the Bible, I find myself listening to things like Man Rampant because I value the views and insights they provide. Thank you for speaking the truth in love and being strong men. Christian women really do want to see strong Christian men, both as husbands and as our brothers in our communities.

loved listening to this!

Just because some people take "empathy" too far doesn't mean empathy in every case is a sin. You could've instead called this "The Sin of Too Much Empathy". Surely you don't believe that trying to understand someone else's thoughts and experiences is sinful! But in most people's minds, that's what empathy refers to. It's imprudent to label "empathy" as a sin, because in many people's minds it refers to something that is truly virtuous. This episode created controversy because it redefines "empathy" in order to label it a sin, which causes confusion for those who are still using the default definition.

I love listening to this

Doug is a great interviewer and very discerning, he hit the bulls eye with laser specific questions. We need more spiritually discerning men in the body of Christ.🙏🏾

People without empathy are sociopaths. Are you (rampant man) a sociopath? A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can't understand others' feelings. The point of empathy is being able to understand others feeling.

This makes so much more sense to me than J.Peterson's blabbing 😅

They’re conflating things that have nothing to do with sympathy or empathy. Rigney equates empathy with a failure to ask probing questions and understand the truth of a situation. Failure or inability to properly ask probing questions is simply a sign of a bad counselor, and has nothing to do with empathy. I’m beginning to wonder if he coined this “sin of empathy” term to be provocative and get views.

I've enjoyed listening to this episode again. The claim, of the sin of empathy, is well qualified, explained, and worked through. They are definitely parts where, to paraphrase Voddie, "if I can't say amen, I ought to say ouch."

The golden rule "“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”" is exactly what empathy is. So let's not redefine empathy to mean something entirely different from what it is commonly understood to be.

This was such an eye opening and healing conversation. Thank you Lord!!

What a great witt combined with truth!

That was really good!!!

Started watching just because of the name!

I find it interesting and telling that Pastor Doug Wilson went immediately to an example of someone lying about sexual abuse. Like honestly does that happen so often. I would think more often you would have to curtail your empathy when dealing with regular interpersonal misunderstandings. Sexual abuse is pretty clear cut and I don't think a lot of people lie about that and fabricate it.

Yes, empathy can be dangerous. You can get sucked in & worn out.

I don't want to disagree in this forum. As a minister it's not my place to step in even if I don't agree. However, from what source are you getting your definition of sympathy and empathy? Honest question not trying to be flippant or dismissive.

I'm so grateful that God delivered me out of this type of environment and these type of men. You have managed to twist empathy into a sin with word salad. You throw around the feminist word likes it's dirty. To hear you say as a pastor that you keep abreast of what's happening but you don't want to ....you are not interested in what's happening across the country....what are you talking about.....keeping your head in the sand....must be nice to be able to do that. It's possible to stay informed about your neighbor and see what is right and wrong, what is inhumane and what's inhumane. You can be in the world and not of the world.

Something they touched on in the beginning but didn't unpack too well; is the idea of jumping in with both feet, even if all the facts being presented are true, and all the emotions are justified; if you become depressed because they are depressed or enraged because they are enraged, then someone needs to now save you both from your depression or rage.

You're rapidly becoming my favorite voice in the reformed church, I am not reformed but there's simply something about every lesson that's so incredibly Pastoral and deeply thought out.... Thank you Rev. Wilson, you're A sword 🗡️ of the kingdom cutting away at bad ideas

So good.

So I "love" the redefinition of empathy here - where you separate out the core of empathy (feeling with someone) assign it to sympathy and then brutalize whatever is left. Very reminiscent of John Piper's redefinition of complimentarianism. Empathy is relating to another person (I would say this is very much "feeling with"). Jesus is the architect of empathy, being himself devine he took on flesh to relate and restore humanity. Grace comes from empathy. Mercy comes from sympathy. Both are necessary.

Joe Rigney is making sense to me.

Well done. Thank you

Daniel Goldman's book on emotional intelligence (EQ) states that one of the pillars of EQ is empathy... would you substitute empathy with compassion or sympathy? Because it seems to me that the main driver behind being more empathetic is being a better leader and increasing EQ when dealing with people.

WOW, just WOW.

Seventeen minutes in and so far, what they want therapists to do is what any good therapist would do. Obviously there are loads of bad therapists, but challenging the client is commonly understood to be the therapists role.

needed this

Everything wrong in today's Christianity in one video?

I don't always agree with what Doug Wilson says, but this was rather excellent, and I thank the Lord for men like him.

EMPATHY IS NOT A SIN

Oh this is exactly what I needed to hear

He trying to chang the word to fit his definition that fits with his argument. Though I agree with his argument for “unhealthy” empathy I found it annoying listening to him trying to restrict the word’s meaning as though he is lobbying to change the Webster’s dictionary.

@ 4:04 "He went to Nazareth High" BWAGAHHAAHAHAHAHAAa!! That seriously made me roll. Oh man....I love Douglas Wilson. Just the tone of his voice when he said that. Thanks for that Doug.

This discussion puts so much on the clear. The modern "social justice" ideology is almost entirely based on empathy. Don't worry about absolute standards or even God's law, but focus on "my experience" and "what offended me". Remove the offense of the Law, and all that's left is the standards of the offended party, therefore you must conform to them to atone for your "sin".

Great discussion…. Thank you.

This is great. Soaking it in.

In current psychological language the word he is using for empathy is identification. The idea with empathy is a partial-identification a connection with a distance, a spacious connection.

God bless you Doug keep speaking church now is not the time for shrinking faith but glorious proclamation praise Jesus

I am so happy i came across your channel

One minute in and he says "we are very important" and I'm already out. No one actually worth a damn declares themselves important like that.

I myself being highly empathetic find it more of a curse mostly. My fallen nature revels in distortion and I need to remember this. What good does it really do within the Kingdom to be able to “feel” what others feel? These are broken feelings we all deal with day in and day out, some in varying degrees. The greatest enemy of an empath is a narcissist because we can be taken advantage of, I know from experience. But we were once ALL enemies of God until Jesus came. LORD please deliver me from myself.

Really curious why the marketing is very much directed toward men.

This is an excellent discussion. Thanks so much for your desire to be balanced in your appreciation of dynamics of healing from a Reformed perspective. As a Christian who for over 30 years and who utilizes Bowen Systems theory; the one whose shoulders upon whom Edwin Friedman stands to articulate his view on empathy, one important point needs to be made. Empathy a human characteristic in itself is neither good or bad. It’s relative benefit or liability lies in how it is implemented. In Bowen theory one major way of understanding when a characteristic is not useful is whether it’s expression is organized out of the state of fusion or differentiation. If empathy is expressed out of a fused state, it’s sinful. If it’s expressed out of a differentiated state it’s helpful and appropriate.

I had been prepared to not like this video based on some negative press. This made me interested to watch! I was surprised that I agreed with the hard-hitting analysis of it about 85% of the time. What was given was both logical and Christlike advice for the most part but I think it’s very hard for them to keep their own proclivity to an authoritarian model in check. I’m happy to report that I am married to an evolved male and pray more of my Christian brothers (and sisters) were like this… able to cut the marrow from the bone. Respect is to be earned!

Good stuff.

Many here are still confounding the terms empathy and sympathy . Sympathy for Jesus' friends, Mary and Martha for the death of their brother, and his friend, Lazarus, is shown by his weeping. Empathizing (at least by the definition being used here) would be to join a sense of dispair over the idea of him not coming back.

59:57 "find an external enemy" yep, and that would be the church. I'm praying for a revival first, but expecting a wholesale persecution of the church from w/in her own ranks. The religious had Jesus put to death, the religious killed the prophets, and throughout the centuries the religious persecuted the church. Matthew 10:36 "a man's enemies will be those of his own household".

GOD IS GOOD

Lots of good points. Especially about relativism in counseling. My concern is that as lovers of self, we are fighting against our own selfishness. And we don't love others as ourselves. Proverbs encourages being quick to listen and slow to speak. It also says a fool takes no pleasure in listening, but only in expressing his opinion. But still good stuff.

It strikes me that this entire conversation is built around a clear equivocation of what empathy means, and most likely it appears that they are guilty of the etymological fallacy. A lot of what they say is true, but no one defines empathy as they have, not even secular academics. So it's a long conversation based on an incorrect definition. It's not really helpful, and the claim "empathy is sinful" actually should mean "empathy that excludes God from the conversation, dehumanizes the other person, assumes the individual is faultless, blameless and completely honest, has their own reality in their head, and acts as an uncritical advocate for that person while sinning with them without offering any help or way out based on their owne experience, is sinful Well yes. Obviously. No one disagrees with that.

Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Rom 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. Rom 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

"You can't export what you don't have." Excellent!

This hit me hard and was really excellent. I am so encouraged when men of God talk this way and help people like me see the Gospel even clearer. Keep spreading the good news, brothers!

This is interesting. The other day I was considering choosing to say "sympathy" or "empathy" on a specific point and I chose "sympathy" because I discerned that "empathy" would not be a rightful response.

Super eye opening. I need more teaching like this. So rooted in absolute truth

I LOVE DOUG WILSON! I feel so proper watching this. I think I might make a hot tea and soak in a bathtub while finishing it up. Haha. God bless you all at Canon Press!

The speakers are making a case against a particular understanding of the word "empathy". I'm missing the rationale for how it is that the word "empathy" is by definition a bad word. I've not heard of this way of defining the term before in such an exclusive way.

Yes.

By the way, the description of empathy as a tribal element is not empathy at all. It is simply affirmation with or without any knowledge of what is actually happening. One can affirm without knowing anything about the contents of another's thoughts, emotions, and pursuits. One can just assume that because someone is pursuing transgenderism that the goal is clear, however it is not. Our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful above all things, even our own intentions are often hidden from our eyes. And one's emotions and internal workings are not at the exclusion of another. When I have empathy for someone, I also have empathy for God's pursuits. We are to take care not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and it would be good for us to know why in our hearts not just our minds. The lies that ensnare those possessed by the spirit of this age are seen in respect to the love of God that is honest towards them. But this is just one level. There is a covenantal/contractual level with God which supersedes our subjective struggling and God's desire to show us mercy. God desires that we are all saved, but we have other plans... This is tragedy.

What's the fancy theological term for when people are too lazy to think so they go to ridiculous extremes? Is it the same as for when people want over-simplistic rules and laws, so that they can avoid being actually engaged in Truth seeking on a regular basis?

Solid show and a must watch!!! so informative

Great talk helped put into perspective as a husband I don’t put my wife or myself. ie (doing what’s comfortable) first but Christ! Then my wife and family, am I doing and thinking rightfully before Christ? Or just taking the side of loved one without checking if they are right in actions before God?

Fascinating

While I get what you are after here, I think taking one piece of empathy just because that could be "sinful" if you somehow seem to join in or affirm someone in their sins, still sounds like a redefinition of the whole thing. If it's a more modern term than sympathy, does that mean it's more problematic? You can be sympathetic and be sinful in ways just the same. I just don't see this as super clear or helpful for people focused on the term first as an emotion, like anger for instance, that is not sinful itself, but in practice it's how you respond. I love Doctrine and Truth as well and tend to lean more to the "Reformed" or "Calvinist" worldview. Like anything, the danger to me is extreme Orthodoxy with diminishing Orthopraxy can be the temptation on this side -- just as the extreme Orthopraxy can be on the other side.

This is excellent! Really glad I found you guys!

“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭ Christ could not empathize in our weaknesses because He did not sin.

*Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep* Rom 12:15

Empathy is just knowing the contents of the vessel from within. It's like the lamp that lights and searches the souls of men. We're going to give an account for everything because it's personal to God. Adding the extra step of agreement and affirmation of sin as a requirement of empathy is misleading. One can know another's emotions and judgments and know that they are clearly wrong. I think the anxiety over touching the unclean is what drives the assumption that empathy is sin. We are to take care lest we fall in the sin. And if someone's anxiety is going to threaten their faith or cause them to sin, they should avoid it. But they shouldn't go around teaching others how to make a sin out of what is not sinful.

In the fight between good vs evil, this is message is Evil! Compassion and empathy are good. How have you strayed so far?

I have to disagree on just one thing: the use of the word empathy. I don't think that what you're arguing against is usually considered empathy. I think using "empathy" in this way only confuses people and honestly feels a bit click baity. Most people would not define empathy in this way, but I do see where your coming from.

What concerns me the most is not the changing of the meaning of empathy to suit the position of the proponents. Nor is it the danger of Christians only offering "thoughts and prayers" and disengaging with the lost and hurting. But the framing of empathy as sin because Jesus had empathy and under this statement empathy is sinful the authors, perhaps unintentionally are saying Jesus sinned.

First time seeing this format, I really appreciate the discussion taking place here. Subscribed!

I’ve seen it stated in this thread that the message title is communicating is: facts don’t care about your feelings. That statement is far more political than it is Biblical. In John 11 Jesus comes to both Martha and then Mary. They essentially say the same thing to him: had you been here my brother would not be dead. Jesus says to Martha “I am the resurrection and the life.” And to Mary, he weeps. Christians need both truth and tears. Jesus cares about how we feel, even if we are misguided (also read the entire book of job).

Brilliant analysis, as usual!

Help and insightful and biblical. Thanks for doing this at a time like this.

Excellent and masterful!!! What do I need to read to expand on your shared ideas?????