I'm not telling you what to do.

I’m not a gatekeeper. I summoned for a few bosses during my first run of Dark Souls back in the day. But I have never seen a souls game like Elden Ring where so many players I invade have absolutely no concept of how to dodge an attack or have less than 500hp at the end of the game. This is the first time I’ve seen players in such massive amounts get carried by an overleveled phantom since level restrictions were removed. Phantoms used to feel like part of the world, where a chance encounter from a player converged on your world in a time of need, yet now co-op has turned into guides, carries, and secondary markets for overpowered early game weapons. I understand the appeal of multiplayer, though I can’t help but feel something has been lost in the process.

I was staunchly anti-summon my first playthrough, but after using them and testing different spirits on mini-dungeon bosses and overworld encounters that don't feel that rewarding to solo, I had so much fun. Highly reccommend interacting with the mechanic in that way.

Feels like most commenters didn't even watch the video. He is not telling you guys to not use whatever you deem to be fun, and he's not shaming you for using summons. So why is every single top comment about that.

i find summons way more fun to use when i'm fighting multiple enemies, but i prefer fighting single enemies solo to get into that soulsy dance and flow state that summons kinda interrupt

I think it's undeniable that the game expects you to use them against double boss fights. That's how i used them on my first run. The double Crucible Knight is infinitely more fun with a summon, turning the fight into a 2v2. There are plenty more examples, that's just the first that came to my mind.

I think the accessibility and volume of ashes says a lot about From Software’s intent with the mechanic. They are intended to be used as a tool by players that are so inclined to use them (where allowed), or need to use them to progress. I think a lot of players really struggle with the difficulty of the game, and ashes alleviate a lot of this trouble. They’re also just fun - the variety of them, the upgrade paths, the designs.

The nuance here that Ratatoskr briefly alludes to near the end-but which I think is actually super important-is that there are so many different spirit ashes, as well as 10 levels of upgrades of each. That’s 64 types X 10 power levels. You could theoretically rank them from #1 most powerful (probably a fully upgraded Mimic Tear) to #640 (a level #1 rat ash or something). I suspect a lot of “no ash” purists will try a level 10 Mimic Tear to see what all the fuss is about, and then rightfully conclude that summon completely trivialized the boss. But many of the other 639 options do far less. In many cases, a spirit ash might live 20 seconds, and becomes a tool to get in one free heal or one free buff before it dies.

I'd argue there are areas where the intended experience IS using a spirit ash. Like shown, in Godricks Courtyard or in some Multi-Enemy Fights like Watcher + Gargoyles adds.

I did not use spirit summons for most of my first playthrough because I played blind and never got back to church to get the bell from Ranni. Still I find that especially duo and trio bosses were originally made to be fought against with summons because they attacked you together. Then they changed it for other to wait on background to please those who refuse to use summons.

I've done playthroughs with and without spirit ashes and it's sometimes easier and sometimes not. Their health goes down faster but the bosses can feel unpredictable and chaotic. They can turn on a dime from attacking your ash to attacking you. There's a bit of a give and take with ashes.

I started playing on launch and for most of my first playthrough my character was pretty much a jack of all trades master of none. I experimented with all the different mechanics -- magic, skills, spirit ashes, crafting, etc and if an NPC summon was available I would summon them because in DkS2 and one time in DkS3 there were rewards associated with this and I wanted to be as thorough as I could. I wanted to experience everything the game had to offer. Then for my second playthrough I did a level 1 run using only melee. I guess what I'm saying is that personally I think it's more important to get to know the game in its' entirety before you set yourself a difficult challenge. I know several streamers that only ever do speedruns of ER and yet know _nothing_ else about it, which I find a lot sadder than someone relying on help to get through it.

Worth noting that you can actually use both NPC summons and spirit ashes at the same time. Spirit ashes are only exclusive with player summons, not NPC summons.

I think there’s a line between people who use mechanics in a game to engage with it in a sincere way and those who don’t. I definitely know people who used cheese and ashes to undermine parts of their experience intentionally. I felt like this originated from a notion that the game was designed to be malicious and therefore nothing was off the table. Maybe that was fun for them? I think this is very different from someone using ashes or co-op to simply enjoy the mechanic. Some of my favorite memories come from solo fights and co-op shenanigans I think because no matter how I was playing I was engaging with the game sincerely.

I actually wish Spirit Ashes was a spell school rather than an area limited consumable. Though if they were to do this, the ashes would have to be readjusted appropriately.

Tbh at first I was like. “Why tf do we have these” Now I’m like. “Omg I hope the dlc has more of them so I can do cool combos and fight along side amazing looking allies.”

I went in blind and didn't roomba, as those were Miyazaki's two pieces of advice. I used spirit ashes because when I found them I thought they were dope and didn't know about this online discourse lol. Had an absolute blast.

I think we need to acknowledge that Elden Ring is the type of game you can enjoy even if you don't engage with the boss fight mechanic and use cheese , there is still the feeling of exploration, the feeling of becoming stronger and beating boss with the items that you found in the world, the lore, the intricate level design.

Considering what you can do to any boss yourself if you are willing to properly prepare, use all the summons you like. 90% of the summons you receive will only be good for pulling a bit of agro before they pop. Some are quite strong, but you get them later. The people saying otherwise either ignored them all from the beginning, or they don't want you to have any backup when their failed arena fighter ass shows up in your world to R2 spam at you. If you're not planning on PVPing, ignore every last one of these people. Play with your friends. Summon your favorite spirits and empower them to their fullest. Explore the map, and enjoy the world. There's as much to the exploration and sight-seeing in this game than there is combat.

My favorite way to use Spirit Ashes is when I do a second, third etc playthrough of the game and I decide to have "flavor" company while doing so. Like, for example, I would only use Spirit Ashes that are thematically connected to the theme of the build I am using. It's cool to enhance the roleplay aspect of this game even further. Also, I like to use them sometimes on duo fights, or for an encounter with a boss type I've already defeated more than once in my playthrough, like the Ulcerated Tree Spirits. I didn't use them much on my first playthrough, not for bosses for sure, but I like them as a mechanic.

Before Elden Ring released, I had played dark souls 3 for a ridiculous amount of time. Truly, I had to have clocked 10000 hours in that game. I played it so much that I hated it and never wanted to see or hear from it ever again. I can still see the layout of every map in my minds eye, I could draw a map for you of every level and how they connect. So, with that being said, I was pretty confident that I would not have trouble with Elden Ring. I was sure that it would be easier for me than most people even if I was a little rusty. I was wrong. WAY WAY off wrong. I struggled to fight even basic enemies, I didn't know their attack patterns or any of their moves yet. I spent at least half of the game using the starting straight sword the mage gets because for some reason I couldn't find any weapons. I swear I went into dungeons and fought all sorts of enemies but nothing ever dropped a new weapon my character could use! Every tough boss fight boiled down to me scrounging together as many advantages as I could just to barely scrape by and get to the next area. Oh and you know when I got that mimic tear I brought that dude to EVERY boss. any time they would let me summon him he was coming out. With all that being said, Even as an experienced player, Playing Elden Ring was like playing my first dark souls all over again. It's important to remember that new players are not going to understand how leveling up and upgrades work. They very well may have one 300 damage magic infused straight sword for half the game. And about 30 vigor? We didn't know how much we'd need back then. Especially towards the end of the game holy geez Maliketh hits hard. Just remember that for a new player, things like steering their character and leveling can seem incredibly difficult. I do not blame anyone for leaning on Omen killer Rollo for the whole game, as I did. That's how I beat Malenia, Rollo squashed her and I spammed sword of night and flame AoWs at her. And you know what? I still felt accomplished and celebrated when I beat her.

My memory is famously poor but I do remember there being an interview with Miyazaki or some other dev saying that they went out of their way to include more aoe attacks on bosses to balance them around ashes. You can see this best in the first major boss godfrey who is almost all aoe. It’s literally all over the bosses in this game. You can argue that maybe fromsoft didn’t do a good enough job at balancing for ashes but I think it’s disingenuous to say that there was no accounting for ashes. In my first play through I used mostly wolf ashes( because I’m a degenerate furry) and they were so frail I more often than not went out of my way to get back Agro from the boss so that they could last longer. It was a challenge all on its own to beat a boss with even one wolf alive. The fun of hunting with the wolves is better than worrying about the lost purity of the one on one dance when most ashes can’t last a whole boss fight anyway. Of course I know most ashes are stronger than the wolf ashes and I would agree with you in telling people to save legendary ashes like mimic tear or the headless mausoleum ash for a second playthrough. Normal ashes though I do not believe warp the fight enough to warrent treating them like mimic ashes.

I was more or less brand new to souls games when I played Elden Ring, and so I had few reservations about using spirit summons. For me they seemed to function like a crowd control ability, often I’d meet a boss where there were several enemies in the boss arena, or just a particularly difficult boss for my build to deal with, this is when I would use summons. I saw it as a way to get some heat of my back at the start of a fight so I could better find my footing and understand how the boss worked. I didn’t really have a good understanding of how to fight bosses properly, so I think without a lot of these tools, I would have struggled to actually finish the game and all the bosses. Maybe some people think that players like how I was back then doesn’t deserve to beat the game and experience it in my own way, but I love Elden ring, and if I didn’t fall in love with it playing it like that, I might have never understood how older fans enjoy the game, and I can now enter the DLC with the same mindset as them to challenge myself.

My first playthrough I tried to not use summons but that first game is so tough. Even as someone who played other games it felt incredibly different so I started using summons and I enjoyed the game way more. I don’t understand why people feel the need to bash people for their play style

I'd like to add that spirit ashes actually have a tangible HP/FP cost, unlike cooperators. You can also only summon spirit ashes once if they die, unlike co-op which can just go on endlessly without a meaningful cooldown.

Ashes are in such a weird place. Fundamentally they are a handicap, no doubt... and potentially such a powerful one as to utterly trivialize some content. On the other hand, they also fundamentally change "the dance" to such a degree (when not outright removed) that it enables new strategies. Get a beefy summon to play support if you'd like... or maybe spec tank with a ranged summon. That's a totally different experience and I'm glad it's not limited to co-op or NPCs anymore. Opening up the player for not only cooperative strategies but also *specialized* strategies is great. Otherwise in every fight every solo player MUST be tank & dps & support. Imagine raid level content lmfao

As a mimic main to solo beating the whole game my take is that The game will hand your ass to you on a platter while your +10 mimic watches in horror. It doesn't save you from being bad at the game So I don't view summons as any more helpful or putting the game on easy mode anymore than broken bleed builds. They'll carry you sure, but only so far. You still have to learn the game. RL1 wretch club looks easy by Ongbal. But id have a hard time. Likewise there's people stuck on malenia right now with their ROB and Mimic combo. Because they just never got good summons and OP weapons are like a car, they'll get you home faster than walking but if it dies, you better hope your legs work I think new players that feel helpless to advance should use EVERYTHING to enjoy this game, I think players who need a challenge have plenty of options available. And I'm glad fromsoft made it this way.

Love how the day progresses in the scene with Church of Elleh as you come closer to the end of the video, nice touch!

My problem with spirit summons, just as NPC summons in older games, is that they mostly just turn the boss fights into an unpredictable and chaotic mess. Unless we get more control over them, I don't think I'll ever understand their appeal as a gameplay mechanic.

Elden ring was my first time playing a souls like, I used summons throughout the game and didn’t use a guide and it still took me like 175hrs, it also got me used to the mechanics of the game, like training wheels, now on my second play through without and still recommend summons to people new to the game bc of its crazy learning curve

The gate keeping nerds in this fandom crack me up. Play the game however you want. It's not that serious.

I used spirit ashes on my first playthrough when I hit a wall against Malenia, I then got lazy and used it against Mohg and Elden Beast too. The victories against them didn't feel that satisfying so I played through the game a second time without any spirit ashes or npc summons, me against the world. That felt right to me.

My suggestion to friends for a first playthrough is that spirit ashes are 100% on the table and even encouraged, but only use them when you're really, really struggling. If you use them all the time, you never get that one-on-one experience you need to understand the timing and hitboxes of bosses. As for co-op, I always recommend people do their first playthroughs alone and then co-op and invade as much as they want afterwards. It's very easy to have your PVE experience tainted by some cheeseball nonsense otherwise, usually a cooperator using some level 700 build or just straight-up cheating with exploits. Having one good playthrough that lets you experience the intended story and immersion is always worth it. P.S. While I do recommend using spirit ashes as a way to help when someone hits a wall, I actually recommend simply leaving and coming back later first. Elden Ring is an open world game, and there's no reason to get yourself stuck (unless it's Malenia lol).

The melee combat choreography in Elden Ring is really well-designed and fascinating. It's incredible how nearly every move can kill you in a matter of seconds, but nearly every move can also be used as a window for aggression. That's not something you'll be able to enjoy fully if you have spirit ashes / co-op. Perhaps the loss of this enjoyment is worth it for some players as a tradeoff for getting through the game faster, but I simply think it's not worth it for most.

In my first playthrough, i used a summon every fight and the strongest weapons in the game and every cheese under the sun. . . and I BARELY finished the game in 100+ HOURS! Every fight was hours of dying because i didn't know anything about levels or rolling or dancing or anything. I finished the game underleveled and skipped every unnecessary boss to save time which made it harder for me to find runes and get stronger😂 After a couple more playthroughs, i tried to solo every boss and it didn't even take as much time now that i have a lot of experience to fall back on and I certainly enjoyed my solo playthrough more because of it. My point is, a noob may have problems an experienced player won't even know/remember exist, so they don't have the same needs or wants😂

The peak of co-op was fighting with Siegward and Anri against Yhorm and Aldrich, as well as Burnt Ivory King. There was at least a thematic meaning, character meaning, buildup to those. There was a meaning for those fights being co-op and that made them special. Quality over quantity imo from a thematic perspective. Would also be cool to have invaders invade during boss fights a la looking glass knight.

I can't believe Miyazaki keeps accidentally putting magic and summons into every single one of his games, even though you're not supposed to use the features that have always been a part of the game! Why is it that people can't just play a video game?

Sunbro here. Rata lumped in looking everything up on fextra to co-op. Often the players that need the most help are struggling because they looked stuff up, but can’t distinguish between good and terrible advice. Common noob set up: Radagon sorseal, powerstanced rivers with moonveil, heavy armor (at the cost of fat rolling). I’ve even seen people use carian retaliation on the bell long after the damage was patched. There’s a certain brand of noob that need sunbros for endgame. Am I going to use ashes in the dlc? No. Am I going to carry people that can’t dance? Yes.

Good video! I'd like to add that there are some (not many) bosses that seem to be balanced around summons, namely Radahn and Godskin duo. Plentiful npc summons are provided with Radahn so that you can face him at lower level than otherwise, and Godskin duo doesn't seem to work very well together, making playing with spirit ashes feel a lot more natural at least to me.

I don't use the Ashes because i think it ruins the sense of accomplishment for me personally. Same think with DS and Bloodborne. I would never shame a player that decides to use them though...

Sometimes I wonder why is this so heated topic. Obviously its important game mechanic given you by game developers and therefore use it as you want. The argument against spirit ashes most likely coming from veteran Dark souls players who want to get the Dark souls feeling and have The Dance with bosses. If you want to focus more on the exploration and lore and don't get stuck on every boss for hours, go for it and its perfectly fine. And remember, if someone tells you something like: "You have to go solo to have proper Elden ring experience." it usually mean: "You are not having MY dark souls nostalgia enhanced experience and I don't like it".

I always play solo on a first playthrough, however in Elden Ring you can't get organically invaded as a solo player so co-op is my only option. it's a shame but it's the only way I can get the Fromsoft experience I want. so therefore I like to explore in co-op and then do the bosses solo first time.

This is worded so perfectly. People get way too offended when you tell them the game isnt meant to be played with summons

Excellent video and well articulated points.

In the original Dark Souls summoned phantoms couldn't heal using the estus flask(healing flask). They could only be healed if the host used his own flask to heal. I think this was a good mechanic to prevent summuns to play in a carefree way because they actually had to avoid getting hit by enemies. You also had less maximum hp than usual as a summon. All that is missing in Elden Ring if you ask me. Coop would be suffering by introducing these mechanics but that would be a sacrifice worth for a better single player experience, which this game is at heart.

Yes. Use them if you need help. That's what they are there for.

Everyone should give themselves a chance to solo bosses. It’s always easier than it seems - what feels like total domination is often just a matter of calming down and noticing/fixing few big mistakes. The mindfulness and patience necessary for this approach seems to be rare though. Once you’re in this habit though, spirit ashes can be an extremely fun way to approach replays, adding a ton of spice and variety. Try out different ones, find favorites, buff and support them, etc. One fun activity is to try and keep your Miranda Sprouts alive lol

You make a lot of great points. My issue with summons and spirit Ashe it just makes the game too easy but for the 2v1 fights it even outs the odds especially the gargoyle boys. I have the same stance as you for the first playthrough you should def not use co op summons but I’m more open to spirit ash being used in a 2v1 situation. It just makes it too easy you will steam roll through all 1v1 boss fights the whole reason the series is famous is for the difficulty. The high you get after beating a tough boss is the best.the game is not designed around a co op system like you said it’s a single player game with co op added on.

I hope that in future games they'll give bosses additional fighting styles to specifically use if you bring summons, like switching up the AI to use more/new AOEs or something.

I don't think every Elden Ring boss fight is an example of exemplary from soft standards. As someone who's solo'd all of them, I like having the option to trivialize some of the more annoying or gank-ass fights you can stumble into in this game. In some cases it makes the fights more enjoyable. One example is the boss fight before the Lord of Blood's Exaltation talisman. Brother F' those dogs and F' that reduvia nerd. I'm going to summon my 3 boys, the lone wolves, and they're gonna bite some ankles.

Something else I wanna add about spirit ashes is that why are there some bosses you CANNOT use spirit ashes for? Unless I miscounted but there are 16 unique bosses in elden ring you can’t use your spirit ashes with. You’d think that maybe from software wanted to leave some really challenging bosses where you can ONLY solo them. However most of the bosses (evergauls) you can’t summon for are way easier than any of the main story bosses solo. My theory is that fromsoftware balanced the game around solo areas, as well as areas if you choose you can use a spirit ash. Which makes me truly feel that ashes were designed to be a core part of the game. I beat orphan of kos on my 2nd try, and I find many of the main story bosses in Elden Ring way harder than anything in the previous games. It sucks because I think that the game cranked up the difficulty too much solo, but spirit ashes makes it too easy lol. So I’ve been trying different spirit ashes that are maybe less effective than the meta ones. With all this said, it’s clear that fromsoft made Elden Ring from the ground up with spirit ashes in mind. Weather bosses were made with ashes from the ground up is up to debate. Regardless, me and my ash boys will be ready for the dlc lol

Co-op Mod was the best thing that happened for the co-op side of things for this game.

It’s already in the game, so people are free to use them. BUT just because the dev put something in the game, doesn’t mean it is above all criticisms, from a design standpoint. Much like how we criticise features in other games, I think it’s okay, healthy even, that we discuss how game design can be improved, even by a goated developer like FromSoft.

I love this style of video, it's well structured, you state the arguments that support your claim clearly (so there's no room for needless interpretation). It's a shame that people still seem to miss the point, and are responding to what they think you actually said

I always look back at my first playthrough of ds3, it was launch and all my friends bought it and we played through it together as summons, while yes i had a great time with my friends, I really do regret not beating the bosses solo (at least i got to be SoC solo), i feel as if i was stripped from having the true experience for that game and i can never get the chance to do it ever again, of course i never thought this at the time, it took years for me to look back on it, but it makes me wonder how many people are going to have similar experiences with elden ring.

The one thing that always made me feel like the game was in some way balanced around ashes is the dmg/hp values. In ER dmg values seem off the charts, both you and bosses deal extremely high damage, and have relatively small hp pools. Er bosses can sometimes feel like glass canon battles. Ashes on the other hand have STUPID high hp, to the point where some max level ashes can survive multiple waterfowls where a player struggles to tank even 1. This can been seen as early as margit vs jellyfish. Only way these values make sense to me is if the values were made with ashes in mind as an “easy mode”. If ur struggling against a boss, u can hire a bullet sponge to tank some of the hits for you.

I used them my first play through. It was the best time I ever had playing a game. On subsequent play throughs I don’t use them anymore. I say play how it feels right to you. There is no right or wrong way to enjoy a game

Me and my friend did our first playthroughs along side each other. Elden Ring's coop system was one of the most frustrating things we had to deal with. I really hope Fromsoft updates their multiplayer for the foreseeable future, because when SOTE comes out, im already seeing me and my friend connecting/disconnecting just so we can explore the game The multiplayer mod on PC is the greatest thing to come out of for Elden Ring

I feel like monster hunter handles co op beautifully. The monsters are built for handling two players at least, and function decently with three and four. What would you think about in future fromsoft games, if they have bosses specific AI for when there are multiple players? Benefit? Unnecessary?

Spirit summons act the same as coop phantoms in bosses in that they split aggro and take that dance away from you and the boss.

This is a hard one for me. In the past two weeks I have beaten the game 3 times to prep a few characters for the dlc (game isn't that long if you know where to go). I don't personally like to use ash summons but I will occasionally use an NPC summon. For example, I usually npc summon on Radahn not because he is a hard fight but because I love the spectacle of the army of characters I like fighting him. Or Melina with Morgott because she is my favorite npc. I have also done a RL1 no summon run (which was miserable). I always find myself having a blast up until around mountaintop of the giants, and its because I think right around there you can tell that the game starts to become really balanced around the idea of you having high level summons as companions. Specifically with bosses like Godskin duo, Mohg, and Malenia who are really oppressive and have some cheap gimmicks. They also just have a metric ton of health and if you aren't over leveled or using a specific build it takes forever to chip them down without summons. I feel like right around that point in the game I lose the "souls dance" style of combat where you have this great interaction of dodging and weaving, learning mechanics, learning when to trade hits, etc., and instead it becomes a "I sure hope she doesn't waterfowl at point blank" or "Man it sure would be nice if Mohg stopped surrounding his entire body with bloodfire so my melee build could hit him." Bosses at end game have very strong and fast attacks that have almost no punishable window afterwards. You never really get "your turn." This in my opinion was made this way because they just assumed everyone would have a spirit summon to back them up, do damage, take hits, and distract the boss. The problem for me though is then that the solo player loses out on exceptional fight design because bosses aren't designed to be fought solo. So every time I think to myself "Man I really don't think Malenia is a well designed boss" I have to stop myself and remember it wasn't designed to be fought solo like I want to. It can be done and it can even be mastered, but as a whole it doesn't feel nearly as "souls-like" as a lot of the other bosses from the game or series. And that's the reason I would never put someone down for using ashes, they were designed to be a something the game was balanced around. The old-head stubborn souls players like myself are the ones who just don't want to change.

I think in this discussion a really important factor is lost, it's not just exploration and overcomong challanges that are extremely valuable in Elden Ring (and all the souls games for that matter). My first Fromsoft game is ER, and my first character took 120 hour to play through the game, but i started (on patch 1.08 i might add) because i wanted to experience the world after watching other people's videos and lore explorations, i had less interest in thr "challenge". Since then i have more than 800 hours in the game, i finished the game (all great runes, plus whatever i feel like or i need for my build) with every weapon class, without summons/multiplayer, and i learned the rythm of the combat, and i think it's a masterpiece, but that's not what got me to play this game. I think this is the first title where the degree of freedom for the players enjoyment is higher than ever before, you are granted the tools to choose your own adventure, even on the rpice of it being less curated. In this sense i think these comparisions are pointless, because ER gives more way to enjoy it with less restrictions, even if some of the DS games can provide a better experience in some of those fields, ER is the only one that is this diverse, and i would say it gives a decent experience in all it's aspects. My poont is, let people enjoy their game how they want, and encourage them to try improve and learn as well, in hopes of them seeing the true masterpiece

There's also a third option which I recommend. Play solo and don't use summons until you get really frustrated. The game is meant to be challenging but also fun yet even annoying at times. If the challenge becomes so annoying that it puts you off continuing, that means you've reached a point where frustration overcomes the fun you experience and here is where I'd use a spirit ash. Also for double bosses, fuck double bosses

I will say there is a huge difference between weak and strong summons as well. I think your average player would have a pretty good experience regardless of summons if they were summoning jellyfish, or clay men, or giant rats who would have a small impact on most boss fights. Even medium strength summons like Lattenna, imps, most of the soldiers, etc would certainly effect a playthrough, but not hugely. But most players I talk to who use summons pretty much use mimic tear, often after having been guided to it, or maybe another top ash like Lhuthel or Tiche. These strongest summons often play the game for you, and of my friends who have played Elden Ring, the ones who enjoyed the game the least were those who played with these strong summons. While I'm a no summoning purist for myself, the only thing I'd really recommend not using is top summons like Mimic Tear. When I played DS1 for the first time, I didn't have xbox live so I couldn't play online, and was forced to grind through the game alone. Frankly, I would have probably summoned given the opportunity and I doubt I would have fallen in love with the series in the way I did. When I try and steer players away from summons, its not pretention or gatekeeping; I'm trying to introduce them to why I love the games.

As a DS veteran, using co-op and ashes is a way to make a hard game more enjoyable, which could give the player the opportunity to try challenging their skill on their own later on. It wasn't until I completed the game with my mates that I did a whole run on my own and I got it done 100%, it's really cool. Besides, ashes can be a co-op for people who play offline or have no one else available.

The problem is, in my opinion, that some bosses are balanced with ashes in mind and some aren’t.

I enjoy them when they're thematically congruent with a build versus whatever the best summon is. Example; I love my Jar themed barbarian, aka the Jarbarian, so I love using Jar Warriors ashes because they fit even though they objectively suck

I feel there’s an inherent problem with people assuming that every single person is going to enjoy the game in the same manner. Saying that, “You will have the most fun by not using summons.”, is treating human beings like they’re identical creatures that all share the same thoughts, the same feelings, and hold the same values toward certain ideas. To me, it would be no different than if I were to say to you, “You shouldn’t look up any lore videos. You will have the most fun playing Elden Ring if you collect all the items, complete all the NPCs quest lines, and piece the story together yourself.” Maybe that is the case for some people, but it doesn’t mean that everybody is going to like doing that. The mere fact that there are those who don’t like Elden Ring at all is proof itself that there’s no one-size-fits-all playstyle that’ll make the game appealing to everyone. If someone doesn’t end up enjoying the game as much as others, I think that’s perfectly okay. I myself have run into that scenario before, where I played a game that lots of people said was amazing and one of their favorite games, and I ended up just seeing it as “okay”.

There IS no argument. They're there to be used. Use if you want. Don't use if you don't want. Those who use them don't care about people who don't. It's the people who are against them who are screaming and acting like fools.

Here's the thing. It makes the game easier, arguably trivial in many circumstances, summoning can legitimately be nigh the equivalent of handing the controller to your older brother if you want it to be (Let Me Solo Her got famous over it.). Then there are other bosses like the twin crucible knights, gargoyles and godskins that feel like they are balanced around ashes (or just not balanced at all really). It absolutely makes the game significantly easier. People shouldn't rag on others for using summons (lest it be playful banter) but neither should summoners be disingenuous and act like there is no difference at all between the experiences and many will recommend trying it solo because of that.

I'd say it's fine in the overworld but it definitely trivializes bosses

Hot take but for most boss fights you don't get that feeling of a dance at all. There is only a few bosses where their move set was good enough that I want to go in solo and experience the "dance".

I don't care if you use spirit ash summons because I myself use them in some niche situations, I just find it funny that people try to pretend that it's not a totally different experience and even worse calling you a toxic elitist, not for shaming them for using summons but solely because you pointed it how different the game is with them which is ironic because they treat anyone who dosen't use them as a tryhard elitist which is just as toxic Actually taking your time to learn the meticulously crafted boss encounters is now seeing as way for "losers" to prove themselves because of some inferiority complex and not at all because they simply find it more fun This more than anything they do in game is the negative effect of spirit ashes on the community

I never understood why this became an argument in the first place. Summons are an optional feature, so why people started getting mad at that is beyond me.

I think there is a fundamental difference between the "cost" of using summons for areas vs. summons for bosses. The solo experience of an area is a limited commodity, so to speak. The feeling of encountering new enemies, trying to anticipate and deal with unexpected ambushes, and managing one's resources to reach the next shortcut or rest spot can only be fully experienced on a first, blind playthrough. Summoning help that trivializes these aspects ensures that one never has a chance to have that full experience for the area in question (and it's part of why I prefer not to be summoned to clear areas). For bosses, on the other hand, there is always an opportunity to revisit them on another playthrough and fight them solo for the "intended" experience when one is good and ready to. It is not limited in any capacity since the experience is contingent only on the boss and the player's willingness to engage with it rather than on the player's lack of knowledge. It's exactly why challenge runs are so appealing - they call for players to learn bosses on a deeper level and allow one to experience that "dance" all over again, even having fought the boss normally before. This is why spirit ashes are such a well-realized mechanic; they let struggling players seek help against key foes without robbing them of what could be an enjoyable experience of traversing an area blind.

imagine caring what other people think

Yes. You can do anything if you want to, or not. It’s your game to experience how you wish to

Hey man, i understand different levels of play. But having summons that can complete do a boss for you on your first play through cheapens the experience. People say twin bosses that gank you sucks and are some of the worse bosses. But then turn around and do the same thing with the mimic tear or tishe. Play how you wanna play and beat it with summons if you want but hiding in a corner while the mimic face makes every fight into the a gank session

7:01 I like how hosts just give up as soon as their phantoms die🤣

I've been one of these complainers, and have admittedly tried to prove that my view of a game is better than another person's. More than a few times. For a while now, though, I've been doing my best to drop this attitude, because I started developing my own games. The developers have an impossible task, truly, and they're still expected to deliver an overall satisfying experience to the casual player, the hardcore player, and the individual that is the player. That and so much more. FromSoftware has to please publishers. They have deadlines. The scope of a game like Elden Ring is enormous, but the resources behind a development studio are finite. They really did their best to tackle that impossible task, like many devs do. Elitists in the community are disrespecting that effort with arguments like these. They're using the game as a basis to go after other individuals because we humans just love hating each other - spoken from experience. Claiming that one way of playing is intended or superior is not worth the time you're investing into doing so. Go find another streamer to watch. Go develop your perfect version of Elden Ring. Do literally anything other than become a blight to your game's community, please. So my favorite way to play Sekiro is without using prayer beads, memories, or kuro charm. On top of that, I stopped doing stealth deathblows on mini-bosses and bosses (barring those where it makes no difference). I think it's the most satisfying and most well-balanced form of hard mode. Playing this way helped me engage a lot more with the items, skills, combat arts, and various other mechanics and systems in the game. And by further engaging with all these systems in a way that felt right to me, it really deepened my connection to the game's world. Sure, it's a little unsatisfying watching people play Sekiro any other way, but I don't fault anyone for playing the game the way the developers allow you to. My way of playing it feels more satisfying to me, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to play the same way. Own your individuality, and the responsibility that comes with it. And finally, give the developers their due credit for creating these diverging paths that cater to so many different individual players. Stop grandstanding on a foundation built by the efforts of others.

Elden Ring has bad single player balance. OP weapons. Bosses with low stagger thresholds who are easily kited. Ashes of War that give 200-800 poise with 300+ motion values. Items that trivialise encounters. And buff mechanics where you can reach ng+7 damage during the mid game of ng. Elden Ring's main challenge lies in acquiring the knowledge of how its system work.

My current MO is that I only summon for Godskin Duo and Gideon, because if Fromsoft doesn't put any effort into a boss, neither will I.

Amazing video! I always found it puzzling whenever I hear that "ER's bosses are designed with spirit ashes in mind" because this is an absolutely Schizo take, I mean summons have always existed in previous Souls entries, you could invite other players to help you in your world, but now they made it easier, Ludwig from BB had 3 summons very close to his fog gate, does that mean he was made with those in mind or that "the game expects you to use them?" No, absolutely not, it's optional, like any build or any magic/melee weapons or any OP consumable (like Beast Blood Pellets) the game throws at you, most of what I see are those who call themselves "Souls vets" their egos were hurt so they convinced themselves that the game expects you or demands you to use them to play it "the intended way" whatever that means...

I think theres also an element of fun for the RP aspect of some Spirit Ashes, For example when Latenna asks to come with you. summoning her as your main summon can make it feel like she is really accompanying you to the haligtree. Or if your doing a Blaidd cosplay the wolf summons can compliment the RP of your build, Finlay can compliment a Malenia or Cleanrot knight build, or the Redmane soldiers compliment the Radahn build. Theres so many examples of certain ashes just feeling so immersive when played with a matching build or playstyle

Remember folks, if the devs put a mechanic in their game, it's a feature that CAN be used. But if you installed an easy mode mod, then you're NOT playing how the devs intended.

For me, spirit ashes making the game harder because they make bosses unpredictable. I'm the type of player who studies and learns bosses movements, so most of the time o predict the bosses actions. However, with spirit ashes it is different. Bosses are acting totally unpredictable.

I think it's worth mentioning that the game is filled with mini dungeons and re-used mini bosses, especially gank encounters, that a dozen or so hours in, the spirit ashes become a no brainer :D, and strategizing what set of spirits to use in certain scenarios freshes things up. Now for legacy rememberance bosses and most of the game, I'm staunchly no co-op / spirit ashes type of guy

My personal issue with summons is that it fundamentally changes how the bosses play. The very thing I find enjoyable, which is engaging the boss head on, is gone. You can, for the most part, simply ignore learning the actual fight itself. Another gripe is players not understanding this fact and wonderding why we think ER bosses are the hardest. No, Malenia isn't easy.

“We don’t want people to look things up” makes the most obscure, unhelpful and terrible quests in any video game.

There's so many bad bosses in this game I usually use them in most dungeons just to get through them quicker, and hold back from summoning for the good bosses.

I barely beat the game even with the ashes. And without them, I would’ve 100% had to look up guides and spoiled myself. I thought that’s what Miyazaki intended with his quote and adding an optional way to help when the game gets really tough. And I thought that what the co-op aspect was to. Both are really only supposed to be used when you run up against a wall so tough that it’s either look up guides or quit.

here's my thoughts I've seen Malenia criticized as "a sekiro boss but you dont have sekiro tools". my response? "sure, but you have ELDEN RING tools". spirit ashes are one of those tools. same with perfumes (the bubble one that absorbs a hit is very nice while you are learning a bosses patterns). same with using throwing items to prevent a mobile boss' posture damage from recovering. That last one in particular is fascinating; I see so many people wanting to live out the Guts fantasy of "big sword go clang"... but then they miss out on how Guts has ranged weapons too. They stick to big sword only and then complain they cant stagger the more mobile boss' because they can only get 1 hit in and then there is a bunch of downtime. My response to them? Idk dude... be resourceful like Guts actually is? Jesus... But back to the topic of spirit ashes... I dont see them as an easy mode, though they have the potential to be as a reward for exploring to get all the upgrade materials. There is no shame in using them. They are a tool in your arsenal. To carte blanche reject ever using them because of some hardcore Gamer™ego shenanigans is silly.

People can play how they want but it absolutely an optional easy mode.

I'll summon whoever I want, whatever I want, whenever I want, I'm living and playing peacefully on my own this is coming from someone that has been playing the soulsgame for a long time from the start..

For the co-op experience in Elden ring, I will say this - in many ways it feels like an afterthought, which is kind of a shame. Fromsoft seems adamant to continue adding mediocre co-op modes in their games, but never iterating on hem in any meaningful way ( always needing to jump through hoops just to join a friend`s lobby, completely non-sensical restrictions on where you can and can`t go in co-op, the fact that even just 1 more person can make some encounters so easy it`s laughable since game doesn`t properly scale up enemy HP/Def values, etc. ) In fact, I still remember how miserable my co-op experience was during those first few months - constant disconnects, certain areas just being arbitrarily inaccessible because you decided to try and have fun playing with a friend and many other issues. And then something interesting happened - Seamless Coop mod for Elden Ring, which when my friends and I set it up, basically added an extra 100 or so hours of just going through the game, unabated and unrestricted , but guess what? It was perhaps the best time I spent playing that game ( save for the first playthrough of course ). Now, you can argue that , 'why should I have to seek out an external tool to make the base product improved, in some way?' , which is a fair point and in no way do I think that you *need* Seamless Co-op to enjoy Elden Ring, whatever enjoyment might mean for any given person since everyone finds value in different things when it concerns entertainment. However, there are many more people that enjoy and want good co-op experiences - such as with the Remnant series is or hell, even the fact that something like Seamless co-op is one of the most downloaded mods, if not THE most downloaded mod ( according to what metrics on Nexus mods say, anyway ). I guess my point is, if you are going to continue have something like co-op in your game but have it be so neutered in comparison to not just other games with better co-op modes, but even just free mods for your game that , in my honest , add a much better experience for cooperative play, why even have co-op at all?

So far there was not a word about spirit ashes in the dlc. Miyazaki said there weill be new weapons, armors, spells, ashes of war but he didnt mention spirit ashes. There is a possibility their use will be limited.

I respect ratatoskr's arguments. But I'm still gonna do a run with the bois because jolly cooperation.

Absolutely incredible how some people here typed a comment not 5 minutes after the video released about their stance on this topic. Even bringing up arguments and logic that are being addressed or even entirely denied by the video and thus should make you think if you came into this in good faith. Because they didn't watch and came into this with their mind already set in stone. Sad that we can't have this discussion like normal and maybe come to a better conclusion than the both horrible extremes that dominate the discourse.

I think this is the fairest description of the spirit summons/co-op situation in Elden ring that I've heard so far.

My personal policy about Spirit Ashes is that I don't use them if it's a 1v1 Boss Fight. However, if it's a 1v2 or 1v3, then the Ashes are coming out. In Souls, take Ornstein and Smough for example, there's cover and differences in how the two move and attack that makes it a fair fight. Elden Ring, however, you get matchups like Godskin Duo where both come at you aggressively nonstop with tons of overlap in their attacks. Since Elden Ring handles 1v2s and 1v3s poorly compared to Souls, I think using Ashes is fair play.