The true top of the food chain: *Random Crits*

The actual TF2 food chain: Sandvich > Heavy

Medic: *is countered by everyone* _gets über_ "Oh how the turn tables"

Demoman can pose a soft counter to Heavy, as if he can quickly burst his massive health pool with 3 pills against an immobile class.

This all makes sense when you take “food chain” metaphorically but we all know in an ACTUAL food chain, Heavy would just eat everyone.

No one : TF2 Food chain : Let's bully the Engineer

I am shocked that you didn’t put pyro as a counter to demoknight. The fact that pyro can permanently keep demoknights out of melee range while dealing afterburn and burst damage to them is definitely a counter.

I'd like to point out that as a Heavy main with many many hours on him I believe that Demo counters Heavy completely. Assuming neither have a Medic and both are at an average, exact same skill level, all a Demo has to do is just hit Heavy three time with some pipes. And if he misses, usually his Stickies will finish him off in a heartbeat.

pyro hard counters demoknight (air blast)

I would say that Sniper counters other Snipers because who's better than a class that can literally kill you from across the map in one shot than another class that can literally kill you from across the map in one shot. Sniper still has that close range weakness but extremely skilled Snipers can instantly quickscope headshot you at very close range making his weakness almost negligible, especially if their team has a strong defence, so who's better countering him than with another Sniper.

The bottom of the TF2 food chain: Me

“Heavy Medic combo counters everyone” Sniper and Spy: Hold my jarate and cigarette

"heavy being pocketed by a medic counters everyone" -laughs in fully charged headshot and backstab

Okay I have to argue the fact that Heavy is infact a hard-counter to Pyro, since Heavy fires bullets instead of projectiles, that means that the Pyro cannot reflect anything. Heavy's huge damage ramp-up and his health will quickly dispatch a Pyro before it can kill him, and most Heavys with the sandvich will come out fine. Of course, flareguns are also an weapon for Pyros to have, but it is only a minor hinderance since Heavy can retreat and heal up.

Engi with sentry : looks strong but actually is weak Engi without sentry : looks weak but stronger that you think Engi with mini-sentry : looks weak but annoying and strong and high re-buildable thing is combined. It means *RUN*

Toofty: "Unless your a god at airblasting" LazyPurple as Pyro: "Hold my beer"

And Demopan counters every class

Heavy with medic counters everyone except teleporters. U can telephrag people with über

4:40 your eternal reward in a nutshell

ah yes, my favourite league of legends character, tjorbjorn

4:40 I just love seeing those little skits that you can witness in TF2, the innocence in both of the players and stuff

Uber medic counters everyone *except* for pyro. Pyro is a hard counter for Uber medic (except when using the Phlog).

I'd rather say spy is a soft-counter to engie Unless you get the engie when distracted (good engies spycheck 90% of the time), you cannot really fight him directly, since A) the shotgun outdamages the revolver (the amby fixes this but still) B) if you fight the engie he can simply unsap his sentry and the sentry will kill you C) smart engies don't get trickstabbed Spy can ruin the engie's life on certain situations (like when using the gunslinger) but for the most part is just a minor annoyance

Imo heavy is a strong counter to pyro, he melts the pyro and is in relatively good shape afterwards especially as he can just eat a sandvich and be at full health

No one: Medic mains: The ubersaw > Everyone

I know I'm late to the party. I main medic, and this video didn't have a lot to say about medic, so I'm going to throw in my two cents. It's true that every other class has more firepower than you, but some are more dangerous to you than others. A scout, sniper, pyro, and soldier are your biggest problems. They either have high mobility, or can kill you from far away, and all of them have the firepower to kill you easily. They're your biggest counter. Then there's demo and heavy. It's true that demo can sticky jump, but they deal so much damage to him that unless the demo is very good, he won't be able to do it a lot or at all. So those classes can kill you easily, but they're low mobility generally means that they won't surprise attack you. Spy and engie are usually the smallest problems for you. Because your medigun will heal your patient no matter where you look, you can constantly be checking your back, even in the middle of a fight. And engies are not usually a threat unless you're blundering into a sentry. But as a medic, your biggest friend is any of your power classes. Almost anybody of equal skill to you can gun you down if you're on your own. So, stick close to your teammates and run away like a lil bitch if they die.

random crits: counter every class vaccinator: counter random crits melee crits: counter vaccinator

1:11 Here we see the wild spy trying to flee a ferocious scout,as his last resort,he jumps down to the first floor,only to fall to a clumsy and painful death

Medic is the most powerful class so everyone in enemy Team want him dead.

"Pocketed heavy counters everyone in the world" Spy&Sniper: Say hello to me little friend!

Pyro counter's demoknight Reason: they can airblast them back

8:04 "I feel like i can just run away from the demoknight" **Gets killed by demoknight**

I would add. Scout soft counters pyro. Heavy soft counters soldier. And the biggest one demo counters heavy. But the real issue here is that some classes excel 1v1 some in groups. Some classes excel in the open some in close spaces. These traits are often much stronger than class vs class dynamics. Also pyro is kinda a special class who acts more like medic in the sense that they provide utility and special plays more than counters.

I know this was months ago but I can't believe you missed the fact that pyro hard counters demoknight.

Sniper: *laughs in 150 dmg quickscope shot at 2 feet away from a scout* all your heads look 12 feet tall

As for demoknight and his counters in general, I'd say he hard counters spy, trolldier, and Vaccinator medics. He also soft counters scout and demoMAN. He is absolutely hard countered, and by that I mean completley shut down by heavy, sentry guns, and Pyro (if he can airblast properly.) He's also soft countered by sniper, scout, and Soldier. Demoknight needs to get in melee range of his opponent, that is his primary weakness. His shield charge, resistances, and increased melee range help compensate for that weakness. Any class that can nullify those advantages by either outdamaging Demoknight at melee range (Heavy, sentries, Scout.) or by making it impossible for him to get in range in the first place (Heavy, sentries, scout, sniper, pyro, soldier.) can effectively shut him down if they know what they are doing. However, if he gets in melee range it's only a matter of time before he kills you.

A heavy with medic counters everyone in the game A phlog pyro with medic breathes heavily in the corner

With those "situational" counters like scout vs demoknight and pyro vs sniper, couldn't you say that they both soft-counter each other? So they both have transparant sculls against each other on the diagram. Because they can both exploit the other's weakness.

You're right about demoman mainly countering engineer, but demoman also counters every class near doors, corners, or the payload.

Where’s medic? I guess everyone knows he counters everyone. Syringe gun is definitely the best weapon in the game

Wait though, in my experience, Pyro counters Demo and Demoknight pretty hard. Because Demo lacks any kind of hitscan weapon, Pyro can not only reflect all of his projectiles, but also keep a charging demo out of arms reach (which isn't very hard to see coming sense Demo screams at the top of his lungs to announce to the world that he's making a charge.) If a Demoknight comes to Pyro, Pyro can simply puff him away if he gets to close and burn/shoot him from medium distance. and sense it'll always be a uphill fight for the Demo, Demo either has to run away or wait for a teammate to come in order to have even a chance at surviving (unless Pyro uses a backburner or dragon's fury) and before you say, Yes Ik targe has strong fire resistance, but that doesn't make them resistant to air blast, that just means they're going to die slightly slower.

5:03 Red medic heals blu soldier. Toofty: wait that’s illegal

Here I was hoping you were going to give us tasty recipes for how to cook each class

2 parts got a chuckle out of me that were in the background gameplay 4:42 a pyro taunts then gets backstabbed by a spy with the thing that makes you turn into whoever you backstab during the brief turn around 8:15 Someone wants a melee fight of honor

I think tf2 doesn't have as much counters as you think it does. Sure, engie obviously > scout, but for things like sniper > pyro the line becomes blurry and is best described as 8:00 Sniper does not have anything that specifically counters pyro other than his range which can apply to anyone when their far away from him. This can also be twisted in the opposite, if the pyro is close to the sniper, does that make pyro the counter to sniper? I think it is more like this: A class can counter ANYONE if the situation is in their favour. For example, spy can theoretically be a counter to pyro if the pyro has no reason to believe there's a spy near him hence being an easy target for spy. This is because stealth is spys strength

Here’s a dumb little story of me playing “Sentry Heavy” Once on Upward, I was using the brass beast and sitting next to a levels one dispenser and shooting people. It was fun until I heard “I am fully charged!” on the other team. Then, I saw an Uber Pyro with his pocket medic coming right towards me. Since I was having fun role playing as a sentry gun, I just continued to shoot at the Uber Pyro. He then pulled out her melee and started wacking me. Their Uber ran out so I murdered The Pyro and the medic just ran for his life. After that, I thought of calling my friend on discord and getting him to play engie and build a dispenser for me to be “Sentry Heavy” again.

You did a hella great job pal'. Keep doing vid's like that one))

I like how you added demoknight as another class

I think these diagrams are fairly accurate, however in competitive play it changes a bit. Pyro is rarely run since skilled scouts completely shut him down from a distance, making him less viable.

Pyro vs Demoknight is possibly the biggest mismatch in the game. Unlike Heavy where you can at least get a hit in before dying, a somewhat competent Pyro is *completely* invulnerable to a Demoknight (unless he's using the Phlog)

Pyro for sure counters Demoknight because of the airblast which can corner him while he's on fire, this is extremely difficult to get out of if you have 2 pyros constantly airblasting you into a corner, or one airblasting you, and the other constantly dosing you in flame.

The demo knight vs scout comparison is a tricky one, for example a freshly spawned eye-lander demo can be an easy pick for a scout, but one with max heads can out-run a scout making him an easy pick, other influencing factors like shield choice and melee choice can really mix that up even more, tide turner charge focused demoknights/hybrid knights tend to do best out of the gate

I was honestly waiting for someone to make this video. Idk who, but someone. And you did it! Thanks dude!

Medic: exists ToofyTV: *I'll pretend I didn't see that*

I haven’t been playing for too long, maybe about two weeks up to this point, but your Pyro vs. Sniper point kinda makes sense. I managed to find a Scorch Shot and I’ve worked on the aim enough to be able to hit Snipers across 2Fort with it

How do you only have 50k, your channel is epic af

1:10 that spy's ragdoll reminded me of the vine "we back at it a gain at Krispy Kreme

The higher level of play you are in, The more the counter relies on skill rather than the class itself.

blutsager battle medic has worked out for me way more than it shouldve

Whenever I think of making a table, I always make the medic slot how well he synergizes with the class for example Starting the match scout is a great pocket giving you a faster rollout while building Uber On the point on defense a heavy is a great heal target because he just won't die with good awareness As a medic main I use every medigun except for vacc and when I use kritz pyros are good on defense and decent on offense You can have a pocket soldier or demo to screw over engineers Spy uhhhhhhhhhhhhh....... Overheal snipers so they can survive a quick scope headshot Healing engineers gives them the capability to survive rocket spam towards there sentry guns and ubering them while they carry the gun is an invincible sentry Healing other medics give them similar benefits but instead of rockets and a sentry it's whoever they're pocketing so they can stay with their pocket for longer periods Just easy to give info like this is how I'd graph medic

From my Pyro experience: Scout: good against Pyro, but is very likely to die, if he enters the flamethrower's range. Soldier: same as in the video. Pyro: shotgun for the win. Demoman: I often find Demo as a counter to Pyro. His grenade launcher has lower attack interval than the airblast and the stickies are the only reflectable projectiles, that don't get neutralized by airblast. Heavy: good against Pyro, but very likely to die, if he gets ambushed. Engineer: yes, Pyro sucks against sentries by himself, but he can reflect its rockets to kill the Engie. He can also use the Panic Attack to quickly destroy mini-sentries, that the Engineer puts down when he retreats. Medic: Pyro counters stock uber and crit-boosted Soldiers and Demos, but gets shut down by the Quick-fix. He is fairly good against Vaccinator, since he can use both fire and bullets and has a strong arsenal of melee weapons. Sniper: same as in the video. Spy: toast.

If you like info graphics... Then you’re INFO a treat XD XD XD XD XD XDXDXDSXXASX end me

When you put the counters for demoknight I thought "hey what about scout", but you're right that it seems to vary a lot depending on the situation

3:58 I think the person who wrote that was talking about a ‘counter’, as in counterattack or a response to an attack. The soft counter I think you are talking about is something that partially nullifies or is somewhat good against something else, like you said pyros air blast and soldier.

“Heavy pocketed by a medic hard counters everyone” Me: Demoman pocketed by a medic destroys them, demoman without a medic can still probably 1v2 them. Sniper counters them. Spy counters them. Soldier can at least drop the medic. Heavy doesn’t output enough damage to take down a sentry if the engineer is skilled with the wrangler.

Personal revisions: Demo can counter heavy pretty easily whenever there's an ounce of cover to hide behind (even with a medic). Heavy hard counters pyro, pyro cant approach a revved up heavy easily (at all) and even if you catch him unrevved he can still rev up, kill you, and be left with enough time to eat a sandwich. Pyro has at best an even matchup with soldier if the soldier has a shotgun. Not even a soft counter at that point. Spy is too easy to consistently play around to be considered a significant counter to anything. Heavy is not countered by spy and has at worst an even matchup, at best heavy is doing the countering being the second best spychecker in the game. The mere existence of the razorback gives a sniper or his team enough time to react and kill a spy. I'll concede that Engie is soft countered by spy but only in the sense that he can disable a sentry long enough for a demo/soldier to kill it. Heavy counters scout harder than many people want to admit. Sniper counters himself. Pyro counters demoknight.

Honestly, I'd say that Pyro is a fairly decent counter to Demoknight as well. Considering how it relies on getting into melee range, a competent pyro who knows how to time his airblasts is able to basically keep a demoknight at bay on their own.

Instead of having semi transparent icons id have prefered to have just a different color, like red for a full counter and orange of yellow for a soft counter Anyone its well done , great job on the video !

0/10 didn't put pyro at the top of the food chain

Skill is the ability to bolster your class' strengths and overcome its weaknesses in order to fulfill its role. A Sniper is a long-range class that prioritizes killing small health targets at a distance or cripple bigger health targets to help his team deal with them. The Sniper's secondary is the opposite : dish out small damage to a single close quarters enemy quickly to lower their health and give him a chance to escape. It's also used to finish off enemies on low health. If a Sniper is on the front lines, he'll most certainly die (weakness), or simply won't be as efficient. If a Sniper practices his aiming, then he can dish out his instant crippling damage on enemies more often, and help the team tremendously (strength). If he has a different secondary weapon (i.e. Cozy Camper) then he might be at a disadvantage when ambushed (weakness). However, if his aiming and reflexes are excellent, he can deal headshots on closer enemies too (overcame weakness). So he could technically counter any class under or equal to 150 HP, no matter the distance. But game-wise, he should be vulnerable to any ambush (or other Snipers) or under fire. If two enemies jump on him, he's a goner! Even a Soldier shooting rockets at him from a distance could put the Sniper at bay. It prevents the Sniper from doing his job since he cannot cripple down the enemy team. And I think that's what the counters should be evaluated on. Not the classes, since they are extremely versatile, but their jobs. Scout : it's a short-range class that prioritizes distracting the enemy team or playing the objective. Soldier : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes dealing great damage to or provide pressure to the enemy team. Pyro : it's a short-range class that prioritizes ambushing the enemy team or protecting his team from enemy ambushes (hence why the compression blast wasn't a thing for Pyro at the time). Demo : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes dealing heavy damage to the enemy team or pushing the enemy team back to allow his team to advance (basically, secure the front lines). Heavy : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes killing enemies breaching the front lines or assist in crippling down enemies at the front lines. Engy : it's a short to medium-range class that prioritizes punishing enemies going behind his team and provide his team the means to maintain the front lines. Medic : it's a short-range class that prioritizes negating the enemy's work (might be better worded) and helping his teammates fulfill their roles. Spy : it's a short-range class that prioritizes wearing down the enemy team and alleviate the work of his teammates. Based on these definitions (or mindset at least), most if not all tools and play styles allows these roles to be fulfilled. Demoknights can dish out heavy damage on a single target (swords are around 195 dmg on crit charge if I remember), and killing Snipers, Soldiers or Demos helps his team in slowing pushing through the front lines, for example. Snipers have an easier job taking out Scouts, Engies, Medics, Snipers, and Spies. The Scouts are fast, so it's a bit harder, and Spies are mostly invisible, so it's extremely hard to take care of them. Pyroes can be easily crippled down, Demos and Soldiers are harder to deal with, and a Heavy is a very easy target as long as the Sniper isn't under his fire. So Sniper counters Heavies, Engies, Medics, and Snipers, since that's what his role is best at. Scouts, Pyroes, and Spies are harder to deal with, since they are mostly ambushing, taking cover, basically not being on the front lines where the Sniper can see them. Soldiers and Demos are more of a neutral state, since they excel in pressuring their enemies, and can easily cancel the Sniper's role. But when they aren't, then the Sniper has the advantage. Which is why those two are counters to the Sniper, as well as Scouts (distracting the Sniper), Spies (taking out the Sniper), other Snipers (dealing with small health targets at a distance), and Pyroes (ambushing the Sniper). For Medics, since their role is to negate the enemy's work (be it an uber to break their defense or healing teammates to patch up the damage they received), they are a counter to every class, including enemy Medics. However, since their role is to negate the enemy's work, they can be countered by any class as well, since they too can negate what the Medic negated (in other words, dealing the damage patched up by the Medic or ruining a push thanks to a Pyro for example). It still doesn't simplify the graph, but at least it includes every possible variants, since we compare the classes on a more abstract level, without skill levels needed to be considered (no matter what your skill level is, a Sniper will always be better at taking down classes that are farther away and to cripple the enemy team).

I believe any ubered class vs pyro is two options: a soft or hard counter. This depends on map and positioning. If they aren’t near any Instant death areas, than all pyro can do is survive and stall out the Uber, thus making a soft counter. If they are near an insta-death area, pyro can air blast them off the map and kill the Uber and the players, thus making a hard counter.

Was lookin for dis

How to hard counter demoknight: right click with your primary weapon as pyro.

4:39 This is so sad, can we get an F in the chat

I definitely don't think the wheel is overly complicated; I think it's a nice way to look at it

This shows how good and complex the balancing of this game is

5:00 That kinda reminded me of the "Good night girl, see ya tomorow" meme Also a few seconds before he said "Raining down death"

*[Hear Charging scream at the distance]* >Screen shakes >Crit sound You are ded, not big soup rice. Demonight is a light counter to everything except Engie, Heavy and some experienced Pyros in my opinion.

I'd love to see a part 2 to this, including all the different sub-classes. Maybe you could do it for a 150k sub special or something. Or just keep it in your back pocket for when you need to make a video & don't know what to make it on.

I think that pyro is a hard counter to demo knight because of the combination of air last and fire damage

The TF2 Food Chain but Everytime Toofty says "counter" you take a shot.

I've always loved your inforgraphics

the knight versus scout dillemma is probably based off of the map. with scout, you can easily escape a knight if there's plenty of space, but as a knight, if there's very little space, you can charge through and demolish a scout.

I am a spy main, and i can say that engineers are not easy options, if they are not busy. They morely stay in their nest, means that they are more spy-aware. Also sometimes they cooparate with pyros.

For me, a class is overpowered when his only counter is himself(*coughs* sniper) med is different. med is the only real heal class. tbh it counters everything with a team but alone yeah, he cant really do stuff except surfing

What makes Soldier deadly is not that he is super effective against every other class, rather that he has no major exploitable weakness.

I think for the iffy situational counters , you could use mini - counters , which are just too situational to always work out , but can work when they do

A better use of the hard and soft counter terms I have found is direct vs indirect; the Darwin's Danger Shield is a hard counter to pyros as its primary purpose is to directly counter pyros, whereas Demoman is a soft counter Heavy as his high DPS is just happens to matter a ton against Heavy.

Engie has so many counters because the Sentry can rip a team apart if they aren't focused.

Toofty: Make video about class counter Spy main: Class counter?, never heard about that.

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. Perhaps if you were ever thinking of doing a more comprehensive look at dynamics between classes, you could try interviewing players who main (and have much experience on) each class, because I think that would help to remove considering weapon loadouts even in the complex look. My thinking is that someone who plays so much of a class can see another class more generally, considering the wider scope of play outside a loadout.

I think a good way of distinguishing hard and soft counters is by comparing them to counters and checks in competitive Pokemon. A counter is something that can switch in and get the kill, while a check can only do so when not having to switch in first. In TF2, a counter would therefore be a class, that can always reliably kill another one, wheras checks only have the upper hand when setting up an engagement on their own terms.

I think heavy is good against all, but sniper and spy. 10:30 👌

TF2 food chain: exist Pro players: I'm going to end this man whole career

9:04, pyro heavy dynamic depends on if the pyro knows his movement and if he has the panic attack degreaser combo

If you factor in the stock syringe gun with medic you would have a good counter to scout in most cases. Their is even an achievement for kill a scout 500 with the DPS of a needle gun.

Swipez be like Spy eats everything

So, my opinion on this: When it comes to the food chain, you should remove Demoknight if you say "only stock" ,because Demoknight is made out of alternative weapons and you can't say what "Stock Demoknight " should be (that's why you have troubles choosing Scout as counter or not) Medic should be seperated into 2 states: ubered and normal. (normal gets counterd by everyone and ubered counters everyone)

A better soft counter example would be a scout with mad milk VS a pyro, the scout takes some fire damage but can use the mad milk to either extinguish himself or try to douse the pyro and counter attack

Demoknight vs scout is interesting. Who counters who i feel is largely based on how the scout reacts to it.