Me: Sees video title. Me: "Oh, we're talking Children of Hurin today!" Have a Merry Christmas!

I’ve found some very beautiful yet gruesome sketches of Celebrimbor when he was made to be a living or half-dead war banner skewered upon a huge orc war pike type of thing. Now that deserves to be put in a super awesome and accurate adaptation to show the e peril and gravity of the malice to at is at large once again.

Good points for uncomfortable moments! I was wondering if you'd get into the whole situation with Aredhel and Eol . . . personally, nothing in the whole Silmarillion made me more uncomfortable and creeped out than that story - how he lured her in, trapped her there, isolated her and all the rules he forced her and Maeglin to follow. It definitely had some very heavy abusive implications :/

As a Christian, let's just say there's many reasons why I am a fan of JRR Tolkien and not GRRM, not saying GRRM is a bad writer, just saying I personally prefer more innocent and traditional values. Tolkien and Lewis are more my speed.

I was thinking of Beren, Finrod Felagund, et al. in Sauron's dungeon, with werewolves devouring Elves.

I imagine if they were to somehow visually portray the Morgoth & Luthien scene, they'd have to get into Morgoth's mind and visualize what he is thinking about, in a kind of dark fantasy kind of way... they wouldn't have to be explicit, but it could certainly consume his thoughts until he drifts off into the magical sleep while dreaming his dark dreamy dreams.

I appreciate the way Jackson’s return of the king movie handled the Frodo scene. It was kid friendly enough but it was obviously to understand he was stripped bare.

There’s a lot of really graphic and tragic violence that could be adapted into some very impactful and mature scenes like Gelmir getting killed in front of Gwindor or later on in the Nirnaeth when Fingon is killed by Gothmog and his corpse gets beaten and trampled. The kin slayings would also be pretty dark scenes to see on screen. The children of Hurin is just so full of really important scenes that are quite dark I think any adaptation would have to have a mature rating to do it justice.

1:03 So, if I get you right, this is the occasion to wish you Merry Christmas in time. Merry Christmas, in advance!

Celebrian's torture at the hands of the orcs in the mountain pass. I have heard speculation from others that she was raped.

Good art does not shy away from the difficult.

Melon Geek, you handle these scenes with true delicacy and wisdom. May your labors always be blessed. Namarie.

Turin and Nienor is like a clever inverted version of the Pyramus and Thisbe legend.

J. R. R. Tolkien was not only unafraid to show the tougher sides of human (well, mostly) existence, he was also well versed in mythology, especially the Norse, that came with his academic career in old languages. He must easily have known one - or more - versions of old legends such as that of Kullervo in the Finnish mythology. There, Kullervo, having been brought up away from his people, among the enemies, also develops into a complex personality wreaking harm upon himself and others, also seduces a newly-met girl just to find out her to be his long-lost sister, upon which discovery, being with his child, she too chooses suicide (not as drastic a way out among various heathen cultures as it is among modern humanity, religious or not). The pathetic (anti-)hero then also gets himself killed in a hopeless battle. Thus the whole concept, though interpreted by Tolkien is not at all alien to the sources from which he drew a lot of his inspiration. Just amazing how ideas and stories in our collective mythic memory resurface in new forms time and again!

Another would be Turin vengefully chasing a naked Saeros through the wilderness and stabbing him in the behind

Theres nudity in The Hobbit. They all strip down and bathe in a river.😂

If you don't want to see something, look away. I don't accept the argument that some things shouldn't be put to film because it will make some people uncomfortable. Everything makes someone uncomfortable.

Havn’t watched the video yet but Morgoth leering at Luthien is surely one, that horn dog. Also Grond🫣

Nudity, suicide, sexual aggression, a traumatic break-up... I like the randomness of the order. Anything concerning Eol and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad should also be disturbing

It's heartwarming watching *your* discomfort at discussing these discomforting scenes!

"Pops up on the screen"... I see what you did there...

Only remember when Frodo is stripped and the mythryl armor is taken but none of the other parts you mentioned. I think that one since he’s a Christlike character as Jesus clothes were taken when he was about to be crucified. The children if Hurin was a great book. I read it years ago when it came out. I read lotr a few months ago for the first time. Not relating but you look so much like a school friend I had growing up, he was a big lotr fan too.

10:01 Obviously this will be followed up by Húrin, his father, fretting over the suicide as yet another victory for his captor Morgoth ...

While I don't seek out shows and movies that are graphic, neither do I shy away from them. I'd be fine seeing all these scenes on film.

Something that a lot of people don't seem to comprehend whem it comes to "mature" comtent or subject matter in fiction is that presentation is not the same as promotion. This is obviously a Tolkien channel, but this idea is even better illustrated through the work of George R.R. Martin. For those who don't know, there's a lot of heimlus stuff that happens in A Song of Ice & Fire, not least of all a TON of incest amd a fair amount of torture, sexual abuse, and exploitation in general. Even just ignoring the author's own words on the matter, nobody can seriously read his story with any level of maturity and critical thinking and walk away with the understanding that Martin supports and promotes any of the terrible things being delicted in his fictional world of Westeros (Planetos, whatever). Speaking as a Christian in a Christian culture that generally believes this, by the logic that to present something bad is inherently the same as promoting it, you'd have to toss out the Bible. There is SO much heinous stuff that happens throughout the Bible, but that doesn't mean that the overarching narrative and its themses are trying to communicate that these are uktimately good things. Although all fiction carries with a particular perspective, good works of fiction are capable of presenting events, characters, and ideas in a manner that encourages the ahdience think critically about the story and engage with it on a deeper level without having to literally spell everytbing out.

7:41 Exactly. The double suicide here is the crime of Glaurung, much as the suicide of Iocaste (and self blinding of Oedipus) is the crime of Apollo of Delphi.

There's also the part of Turin's story where he makes that annoying elf run naked through the woods for trying to murder him. And really that's the start of everything going wrong for Turin. I would also say that probably people of Tolkien's generation had a bit more of a permissive attitude towards nudity in a same-sex setting - they'd almost all been in the military and whatnot where such things would be common. So we shouldn't read this as Turin being overly sadistic or anything, but it is still true that his imaginative revenge scheme is where things start going wrong for him.

So....not the human sacrifice happening in Numenor under the influence of Sauron? Or you do know that Beren would be considered a stalker by today's standards?

What was that bit also in the audiobooks of children of hurin or fall of Gondolin where Tuor or Tùrin finds those two elvish dudes in that pond who were like bathing and chilling out or some such thing? What page was that. I forget. But it was in this awesome ambient audiobook on Spotify and KZfaq

1:13 I think youtube may have a feature blogger has, you can make a post beforehand, edit it while waiting (which may be harder on footages), and have it preprogrammed to appear on a certain date, hour and minute.

This is great. When you approached the topic..' I immediately thought of Turin Turinbar and his doom .

I'm surprised that how Eol "obtained" Aredhel didn't make this list.

I don't recall reading much about the mother of Legolas in the books. Did she have a name in the books? I would suggest her situation, as presented in The Hobbit movies, and Celebrian's story as additional items for your list. The reactions of Thranduil and Legolas told me a lot about Legolas' mother's time with the orcs...the silence, the avoidance of the topic, and the despair in their faces. Reactions like theirs come from especially difficult and very personal experiences or traumas. This reminded me of the story of Celebrian and the "poisoned wound" that was described from her time with the orcs. She had great fear afterwards and chose to leave Middle Earth. The hints are very subtle for both characters, but all too familiar to some readers.

Thank you for your very poignant analysis of Tolkien's work.

Tolkien Geek, I had an interesting question, thought it’s unrelated to this video I’m wondering if you could comment… Why do you think the Sackville-Baginses never ran into any trouble as the infamous last name is so present in their names as well? If black riders and searching the shire for Baggins it makes sense to me that the sackvilles would be in imminent danger or that it would be have atleast crossed Frodo or Gandalf’s mind as a concern. Thoughts?

Yes. Edain-ic state is how I see it. ❤

Túrin was cursed, it's not relly his fault for bad decisions. Also, Saeros being a bully is not in any way Túrins fault.

Gandalf torturing/coercing Gollum. ("put the fear of fire on him".

Aldarion lived by TRoP catch phrase, "The sea is always right."🙄

wasn't there a time Morgoth tried to force himself on the Miar that is the sun and got quite literally burnt by her? Also the question of where orcs come from, what do they do with prisoners...

Americans are weird when it comes to nudity. In Germany nude bathing is quite accepted, especially in the east. Nothing sexy about it.

I appreciate the video as I have young kids and even though I’m reading the Lord of the Rings to them there is much I need to skip. The Hobbits great but Tolkien’s other works of Middle Earth I am going wait awhile to introduce.

@Tolkien Lore Personally, I think that, if Turin’s story were to be put on screen, most people wouldn’t care that Nienor’s unborn child would die because they think that it’s not human.

So little nsfw canon yet so much Gimli/Legolas fan fiction.

"And here of need thou shalt remain now, Lúthien, in joy or pain- or pain, the fitting doom for all, for rebel, thief, and upstart thrall. Why should ye not in our fate share of woe and travail? Or should I spare to slender limb and body frail breaking torment? Of what avail here dost thou deem thy babbling song and foolish laughter? Minstrels strong are at my call. Yet I will give a respite brief, a while to live,​ a little while, though purchased dear,​ to Lúthien the fair and clear,​ a pretty toy for idle hour.​ In slothful gardens many a flower​ like thee the amorous gods are used​ honey-sweet to kiss, and cast then bruised their fragrance loosing, under feet.​ But here we seldom find such sweet​ amid our labours long and hard,​ from godlike idleness debarred.​ And who would not taste the honey-sweet​ lying to lips, or crush with feet​ the soft cool tissue of pale flowers,​ easing like gods the dragging hours?​ A! curse the Gods! O hunger dire,​ O blinding thirst's unending fire!​ One moment shall ye cease, and slake​ your sting with morsel I here take!" - Morgoth before attempting to rape Lúthien

Gwindor’s brother….

I'm completely fine with adult content, but I feel like Tolkien should be for everyone.

Nudity scene missed: Crickhollow bathing scene Morgoth lusting for Luthien: Morgoth's jaw is on the floor with acidic drool pooling upon the floor. Missed scene for honorable mention: Maeglin lusting after Idril.

"If you're a guy who's ever had any problem with relationships"... So: "If you're a **guy** "

I’ll definitely buy those.

Everyone, As requested by Tolkien, please try not to lay direct Christian allegory onto Tolkien’s works. We have lots of Christian influences and inspiration but no direct allegory. There are plenty of unspeakable and terrible acts implied by Tolkien. Thinking too deep about Orc reproduction will lead you to terrible places quick. Tolkien described this as evils worst acts. To be frank, Tolkien had no issues with an honorable suicide. Riding into a doomed battle, Numenorian kings giving up their own life in old age, and even Turin & sister should not be judged by the Christian understanding of consciously giving up the ghost. Aragon technically committed suicide, so I wouldn’t say glorify, but honorable, and certainly not a punishable sin to god. Let’s not forget Eru very intentionally created evil in the world as part of the original music and death is not a punishment but a gift. A challenging but fascinating topic!

First.