There are a couple of versions of this story. I assume you are referring to the one where Celebrimbor distributed the two of the Elven Rings to Galadriel and Gil-galad after he made them. I have always imagined that it was a struggle for them to take the Rings off their fingers.

I’d love to see how Tolkien envisioned that visit going lol

Can you make that movie without glorifying suicide? Too many young people are killing themselves nowadays without giving them the message of victory via suicide.

@@Enerdhil I don’t think that Tolkien is glorifying suicide in this tale. An act that we all must prevent if it is within our capacities. In The children of Hurin the suicides are not a victory of men, but of Morgoth, leaving the children and their mother dead and the father a ruin while being on the right side. Turin will show up at the end of time to victor over Morgoth.

@@delichonnl7744 You should checkout Rainbow Dave's take on his Tolkien Untangled channel. I don't like his take but he also sees the suicides as being a way to escape from the Curse of Morgoth. Death frees the fëa from pain, misery, and suffering of the hröa. Thus they achieved victory in death. Isn't that a good reason to kill oneself?😞

I'd rather see the look on Lobelia's face as she grabs the gift spoons from Bilbo's hand. Pride and shame mixed together in a comic scene.

@@Enerdhil just more Lobelia. Or other Hobbits in general!

Yeah but it’s really vague what’s going on, and in any case I still think Jackson’s approach with the lightning is off.

It makes sense to have Gil-galad born in Eldamar because the High King of the Noldori should be a "high" Elf at least.

Especially Ecthelion vs. Gothmog.

I guess it depends on which version. The published Silmarillion just says they both fell. Which I guess I interpreted as him sacrificing himself unless there’s a version that states it clearly. I’m not sure if there’s a version that says the balrog grabbed his hair.

@@TolkienLorePodcast Found it. Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin (p. 194): Already the half had passed the perilous way and the falls of Thorn Sir, when that Balrog that was with the rearward foe leapt with great might on certain lofty rocks that stood into the path on the left side upon the lip of the chasm, and thence with a leap of fury he was past Glorfindel’s men and among the women and the sick in front, lashing with his whip of flame. Then Glorfindel leapt forward upon him and his golden armour gleamed strangely in the moon, and he hewed at that demon that it leapt again upon a great boulder and Glorfindel after. Now there was a deadly combat upon that high rock above the folk; and these, pressed behind and hindered ahead, were grown so close that well nigh all could see, yet was it over ere Glorfindel’s men could leap to his side. The ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point, and his mail fended him from its whip and claw. Now had he beaten a heavy swinge upon its iron helm, now hewn off the creature’s whip-arm at the elbow. Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of his pain and fear full at Glorfindel, who stabbed like a dart of a snake; but he found only a shoulder, and was grappled, and they swayed to a fall upon the crag-top. Then Glorfindel’s left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog’s belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel’s yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain fell into the abyss. I don't have the new Fall of Gondolin book, but I suspect that could be found there, too.

That is what I remember reading too.

I think he was right there. One of Tolkiens chief points is that the story *doesn*t* end with the victory on Mount Doom and the Morannon, plus three half-sentences about how they were all rescued, Aragorn became king and married Arwen, the Elves sailed West and Frodo went with them. No; there still follows (in the book) the Scourging of the Shire with the explicit statement that the War of the Ring ended. The War of the Ring; but not the book; Frodo still sets goes West. But the book pulls it off once more, *again* : it doesn't end, but Sam still goes home and says "well, I'm back". And *that* ends the book, at least its main stories. (Tolkien on purpose cut the Epilogue he had already written... still the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, in the Appendices, functions as a sort of Epilogue.) It is a pity (albeit understandable) that we got no Scourging of the Shire, in the movie, of course; but at least PJ does *not* deny the general spirit of the idea which is that the Dominion of Men (with Hobbits included) begins and people have to take care of their domestic problems (if we put it rather unpoetically). A detailed explicitification of that, which the Scourging of the Shire would have been, had to go, of course; it would have been 45 minutes of screentime. But PJ does not *reject* the idea. He leaves the the 2 or so minutes of Sam coming home in. I positively think that was rather nicely done.

Just rewatched. As someone who’s been reading Tolkien for 40 years, and have been personally involved in a armature filmmaking, PJ botched the end of the films. When I watched this several times in the theatre when it first came out, I noticed that if your audience is laughing and sighing at the 4 different false endings, you messed up.

The lighting would be tricky.

We do have Rankin Bass for that ;)

The lighting would be very tricky.🤔

My wishes were more simple, I wanted to see the awakening of the dwarves; elves travelling in the wilderness; dwarves and elves building beautiful items and structures; rangers patrolling Rhudaur; ents; Tom Bombadil and Goldberry; high elves and other elves we read about but never saw depicted, how did they live. Also, the Valar, their intentions, what they observed and how they acted. The world as it was during the Two Trees. Landscapes (New Zealand? 😋), beautiful geology and landscapes -- Middle-Earth, in other words. The film directors and producers, artists, demonstrating how they love the world, its beauty, make it real. Care.

I'll take "Tom and Goldberry: The Musical."🎵🎶

​@@PatriceBoivin How can you depict a world lit up by scattered faint stars in the sky. Remember, there is no moon or sun. Stars are the source of light. It would be impossible to not make the scene look eerie and creepy when it should look magnificent and heavenly.

That's a great question. I mean, Sauron could remake his body in multiple forms. His Fana died and he reembodied himself, without the Valar being involved as they are in Elven reembodiments.🤔

I don't trust Taurduin Studios to do either scene properly.

Remember Morgoth has them forging weapons well before in Valinor, so presumably they also practiced with them.

The Japanese have KENDO. Maybe Tulkas and Oromë taught the Elves the art of hand-to-hand combat just for sport and/or exercise.

Pretty sure it wasn’t possible for him to have been there.

@@TolkienLorePodcast Why not? He was in the area because he knew he'd soon be meeting Frodo and Sam in Bree.

The Hunt for the Ring says Aragorn was already on the East Road near Bree by 22nd Sept, the day of the Nazgul's attack. This is Bilbo's birthday, when Frodo was expected to set off from Bag End. In fact Aragorn ends up waiting a week, till the 29th. Anyway he definitely wasn't at Sarn Ford, which is about 100 miles from Bree. Sources: Unfinished Tales / Appendix B

@@pwmiles56 Thanks for the information.

I don’t think it’s depicting suicide as honorable at all. I think it’s just showing how utterly broken they both were when they did it.

@@TolkienLorePodcast So they were justified in killing themselves. Niniel was justified in killing her baby. All had good reasons to die. Do you see what I am upset about?

I see that you’re equating two things that aren’t equal. The fact that both of them are broken individuals doesn’t justify their actions.

@@TolkienLorePodcast What two things are not equal? Turin's vs. Niniel's suicides? Real world suicides vs. Legendarium suicides? (Edit) Or maybe you mean broken doesn't mean justified? Broken is a great excuse if you are suicidal.

Yes an excuse, but excuses are usually given precisely when there is no justification. The distinction is even present in law-justifiable homicide (where the homicide is “right” as in self defense) is fundamentally different than excused homicide (where it’s still wrong but the perpetrator is held not guilty on the grounds that it’s understandable anyway, eg a father does a hit job because his daughter is a hostage and will be murdered if he doesn’t.