This video makes me so excited for 11th edition spoilers!

The battleshock is actually most likely to occur during your own command phase before points are scored since the most common way is for being below half strength during your command phase. While certain units can force battleshock in other phases and turns, most battleshock will occur during the command phase and prevent points scoring.

I want Warhammer bass fishing right now.

GW acknowledged that 9th became bloated. This will no longer be the case. Codex bloat will never be a problem again. It will now be called 'embiggened'.

There are a lot of small changes that add up to a different experience. You said heavy weapons didnt really change, but they did. Now you can hit on 2's with a bonus, but in 10th they already have a bonus so they are stuck at 3's. Before, there was no downside for moving and shooting with a heavy weapon if the opponent already provided a penalty to hit, but now that penalty does apply so they will hit on 5's. Models being able to shoot while inside transports and considered vehicle weapons. So any bonuses applied to the vehicle are applied to their shots as well, double dipping.

The core rules of 9th Ed were never the issue. It was the stacks and stacks of stratagems, bolt on rules, and the fallout from a few codexes that were DRASTICALLY OP making it all the way to publication. I think 40K can be great with these core rules.

I think the impending codexes are going to be the make or break for people (like me) who left because of the rules bloat in 9th. To be fair, I am flirting with the idea of playing only "Indexhammer" - just the core rules with only the index army lists.

Yeah I was hoping for alternate activations or at least (free) reactions

I think, a tone down of 9th edition is exactly what was needed. that being said I am convinced, that the ONE AND ONLY purpose for this refreshing reset is to make room to start the layering and creeping of additional rules upon rules upon stat increases anew.

I might have been drinking different cool-aid but from what I saw it seemed like the gameplay would be about the same, but the main differences were the army rules simplified and datasheets rebalancing. Making it more likely for a new player to get a chance to actually play instead of having their opponent slap down a card and explain that with the characters they have that any character that you can target you can't damage them unless you roll 3 sets of double 6s and even then it does no damage if they roll a 1 or higher (maybe a little exaggerated)

10th edition it´s kinda like Stacy Malibu with a new hat. But the OPR style rules and the free army lists are a good thing however. In 9th i was expeting the arrival of my Death Guard codex for 9 months. Now i can grab the rules from the GW page without dying of old age. Not bad.

8:00 - Counterargument: Overwatch is a stratagem. A flamer unit got Battleshocked in the recent battle report and as a result had no defense when a melee unit swept in and wiped them. A FLAMER unit was unable to stop a charge.

The new edition may not have changed much but they sure did manage to destroy my precious death guard.

Basically 10 was needed to reset all books and give a reason to rebuy them as all datasheets had to be changed. For arbitrary reasons ...

Repackaged, reskinned. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

First of all, thank you for your videos. Keep up the good work. Secondly, as stated by War Cow in another comment, battle-shocked is mainly done in your Command Phase, which means it'll impact your entire turn until your next Command Phase, so it's much more impactful than you think - and a welcome change from the morale tests of 9th, which you pointed out were weird. That's already one major change from 9th to 10th that should make the game better and it seems like the changes in the core rules, though small in your opinion, will positively impact the game. Third, I agree that GW had a great opportunity to make the battle-rounds more interactive like Kill Team. Unfortunate, that they didn't. That's one lack of a change that could have made the game better.

Thank you for the update, I hate alpha strikes and was hoping that this would've resolved some of the obtuse rules, which it seems to be succeeding on the latter, but alpha strikes will remain :(

Its demonstrated some pros and cons. Some of the simplified elements I appreciate alot. But i agree with your take on battleshock, when the admech dettachment rule came out i said “how is this not useless?” And i have yet to see an example of it being useful

I'm not even waiting for the 10th. Since I discovered OPR, I already have the right rules. From GW I only take models.

Games Workshop has said many times that they are not a game company, They are a model company. If you buy the 10th edition set, You are not buying a game you are buying a Big Box of Miniatures. If you view it like that you will not be disappointed with a poor system.

I wonder if there is a good way to house rule some way to do alternating activations...

As someone that sees 40k from an events organisers perspective the core rules having some similarities to 9th edition is a good thing, the core rules were very cleanit was the codexs that broke the edition not the core rules With the biggest changes being number of CP, USR and battleshock i see it as an improvement I welcome any discussion on my opinion as i know it may be an unpopular one

Could you link where the leak is please?

All the old models Geedubs is getting rid of is just making me wanna hurry up on my Grim Dark Future army

I think the biggest change is that Rules As Written, Assault weapons work now. Also that the way Leadership works with lower being better means I'll get even more pushback to my suggested changes to unit coherency.

Sometimes i miss the old way of how units would be forced to run away in 40k ie pre 8th ed.

Obviously dark eldar would be op in warhammer 40k bass fishing with all those hooks.

So have you heard about One Page Rules? Now is a great time to learn more.

How are Alphstrikes possible? I don't understand this point, reserves still can't come in turn 1

What's the release date planned for warhammer bass fishing? (fish blood for the fish blood god)

they have released them officially a few hours before this video dropped... :D Also don't you take the standard battle shock tests in your command phase, not the enemys turn? (unless they have used something to cause it)

I think the big issues with 9th revolved around the individual army rules. Particularly with how many rules were stacked in each army. Along with their individual secondaries, partucularly with the non-interactive secondaries.

This is probably the first time in my life where I've felt the levels of apathy that I currently do toward a new edition of 40k. I've followed things fairly closely and finally concluded that 40k is just fundamentally not a game I will ever be able to enjoy. The focus of the game is just entirely on everything I don't care about. I love the lore and many of the models, but the game itself just is just the antithesis of fun for me. There are some fantastic indie rulesets out there on wargamevault that are actually really fun and let you do everything you wanted to do in 40k. Bonus, many of them are solo/coop. If you want a fun set of rules to use with your Warhammer models, get a buddy and start a 5 Parsecs from home campaign, but set it in the 40k universe. Build a rogue trader crew that's trying to rebuild their dynasty. Or play a bunch of chaos cultists trying to spread the embrace of the dark gods. Tweak the rules where you have to. Maybe make your own table of crew events/enemies/weapons. I've spent too many of my gaming years being disappointed by Games Workshop games that didn't live up to the lore and models. Turns out you can have all of it, fun games, great models (you're not even restricted to ones made by GW) and whatever lore you like.

To be fair most edition changes from 3-7 were really only slight tweaks from one to the next, so 10 being slight tweaks of 9th isn't surprising but fair call on how the hype build up seems to imply we'll be entering a new utopia of 40k.

Hi Chaps. How do I send a message to the good lady?

I'm looking foward to 10th still

Really don’t understand their strong stance against alternating activations.

The removel of the psychic phase is pretty big for me as a thousand sons player

Played 9th, thought I was rubbish, returned to 2nd edition and had loads of fun!

Wild guess: the changes are mostly unremarkable because "the risk is too great"

I honestly don't think GW knows how to "fundamentally change" their game. They've only ever done the small tweeks, such as the -1 BS for moving vs +1 BS for standing still, like you said. They did it ages ago when they moved from the S/T chart to the "if the difference is double or more, it's a 3+". I remember players being all excited how this made the game so much easier but veteran players (who were good at math) realized that nothing had changed. At it's heart, the game will always be the same.

Note on 10th Heavy weapons: They're actually a nerf disguised as a buff compared to 9th Heavy weapons Say Marines have a BS of 3+ Marines moving with heavy weapons hit on 4s, because of the -1 modifier when moving with heavy weapons Even if they shoot at a target with stacking -1 debuffs (eg. a T'au Stealth suit in Dense Cover), the worst they can hit on is 4s, because you can't modify a unit's hit roll by more or less than one (you can't hit on 5s with a BS of 3+, because that's modifying the hit roll by 2) Fast forward to 10th: Marine Heavy weapons get a BS of 4+ now, but a +1 when stationary Achieves the same effect, right? Wrong. Because the BS is lower, and you're giving a +1 modifier, the Marine is now susceptible to two different -1 modifiers; one to cancel his bonus, and another to actually make him hit worse So in 10th, that same T'au Stealth Suit in the same Dense Cover, being shot at by the same Marine, will now only be hit on 5s, because of the Marine's lower BS with the heavy weapon What's even worse is 3+ is the BEST the Marine can hit on now, because the same works in reverse; the Marine is already getting a +1 from being stationary, meaning he can't get any other +1 modifiers unless it is to counteract a -1 modifier Fuck 10th edition; I'm glad my friends and I decided to stick to 9th

Flyers do move diagonally over terrain. And can move over enemy units doing it.

Given the mention of battleshcok and pinning, I feel at the risk of tooting my own horn, I should point at Maneouvre Group (and its free scifi expansion, wot I wrote) have a much more innovative round sequence. They make you drive your tanks, turn your tank turrets and also have a system of suppression and reactions, so it's hardly just Bolt Action. (Actually, MG predates Bolt Action by about four years...) You can theorhetically play at any scale, but the primary scales are 25mm (etc) and 144th (10 or 12mm). That said, MG is an entirely different sort of game. MG itself is WW2 to 2010, and is what I like to call a tactics simulator, in that you actually have to use real-world tactics. (The authors regularly get schooled by an ex-platoon commander of their acquintaince who basially doen't know the rules, but knows the tactics.) It is, then, not the sort of game you play a couple of times, so is probably not the sort of cup of tea for everyone. I liken it to the equivalent of a Paradox Grand Strategy game. MG is a game you play with your models, not a set of models that you get to maybe play the attached rules with, if you follow me? But on this channel of all places, I feel it's worth mentioning. MG Sci-fI Expansion (which, again, full disclosure, I wrote) is available free on Wargames Vault, which has extra stuff for sci-fi stuff like shields and whatnot, if anyone is remotely interested in having a look. It's not the entire game, but between that and the free MG QR sheets and stuff and the Bulletins should give people some idea of what its like. (I won't include links unless Discourse says its okay, since, like, it's her channel!)

After playing the short demo at warhammer fest the small changes in 10th are what makes it more fun. It did not feel like 9th.

What about the removal of psychic powers and the psychic phase? I'm gonna miss my disciplines but I'll be looking forward to seeing how the new system works

I dunno it looks a tiny bit more streamlined and simplified. I'll have to wait until the datasheets are out - then give it a go.

Hi, I'll be your Community Notes for this video. You need a brighter foundation or more diffused lighting on your face. The reason the LoS change is notable is that aircraft become a bit more viable, enabling full on "if you can shoot me, I can shoot you" which is especially important for knight armies. Dense cover/woods no longer gives -1 to hit, it's just cover, and you can't toe your model into woods and gain the benefit, it also has to actually be partially obscured from the observing model's point of view or be fully within the footprint. So that's meaningfully clarified from 9th where you could park a milimeter of the butt of a tank into woods and be -1 to be hit. The Heavy keyword has added granularity as not all models have had their BS increased, meaning for some units it's a buff. The 'I go you go' system is as antiquated as having a motorized vehicle. Something being an old concept does not mean it's inherently worse. Alternating activations bog down games with many units, which is why it's great for Malifaux and not that great for 40k which has much heavier unit rules than for example Legion. You can play with this system yourself and see if you like it, in fact you are more than welcome to use your own house rules in open play. What *has* changed from 9th to 10th is that there are more reactive methods, such as unit abilities that move out of turn or the just revealed Eldar 'Phantasm' that for 1 CP can move any Eldar unit 7" after their opponent player's movement turn. The point being, it's no longer non-interactive and a true 'I go you go' system. There was never any claim of 10th being radically different, only that it'd be simplified in some ways, which it has. It is like a website that changes its background one shade of white brighter every day for a year, it's gradually changing into something more mainstream and becoming the same as everything else that is available. For some this makes the game more palatable and for others it removes something unique. Battle Shock is, in context, meant to remove Objective Control values in a game that is meant to be a little more fast paced and a lot more aggressive - GW wants players to be on objectives and not sit in their corners and fight over the middle. The big change is that once you're reduced below half (not half and under), be it models or wounds, you will have to roll battle shock for the unit every round for the rest of the game. At the beginning of your game after receiving Command Points, you roll battle shock and then score, meaning you can be deprived of points due to your opponent's actions. "The right direction towards Accessibility" is entirely subjective, there is no inherent value in including as many people as possible. While you might make more revenue you also risk changing the product to the point where it's no longer attractive or fun to play. There was no bait and switch from Games Workshop promising no codex', they have repeated the Index system that was at the start of 8th because it was an overhaul and so is 10th. Simultaneous codex releases have their benefits and downsides, one being that the game becomes uninteresting half a year into its launch and has 2½ years of its lifetime left where very little is released. This has been the system for over 30 years. There are no surprises here. Games Workshop has not acknowledged that 9th was "too bloated", they admitted that having rules from too many different sources was not in anyone's interest. Rather than being "bloated" 9th was a player balanced framework system that allowed a huge variety of customization and playstyles, which in 10th will be replaced with pigeon holed detachments and no variety, inevitably making it feel significantly less balanced for newcomers and more akin to a 'rock paper scissors' system. Veterans will barely notice. Finally the biggest issue 40k faces is player mentality and attitude. People come in expecting a video game and rather than accepting that something isn't for them, they assume the position that it should change on their behalf. Not everything is for everyone. It's entirely okay to go do something else. 10th is a compromise system which is unlikely to make more people happy than before. My personal feeling is that it is pointlessly mainstreamed. As for being "better than 9th" this will entirely depend on what your priorities are.

Regarding the heavy keyword, i think heavy weapons got quite nerfed now, at least the ones that git their WS wirsed by one to account fir the plus 1 standing still. Like before it was possible to have a heavy bolter hit on 2+ modified when stationary, now it cant get better then 3+

Battle shock sounds like broken morale ( lite) in Advanced Squad Leader. It's pretty new, came out in the 1970s. Huh.

Can someone develop the lore for Bass Fishing 40k please?

idk can’t say i was expecting big changes mostly just refining what 9th had. main thing i really care about is the new army building stuff

Okay, tell me the SM on the "Leviathan" book cover does NOT look 3D printed. I am not kidding, I know it is drawn that way or an art filter, but those seriously look like layer lines on the model.

I'm kind of excited for the psychic phase going away and psychic abilities being baked into the datasheet.

Speaking of GW, there's also Middle Earth SBG, a game they keep on life support most of the time, with a couple of updates every year at best. I believe MESBG is their best game for a variety a reason, but mostly because: -at its highest competitive point level a game is still faster than 40k - you can explain your whole army to your opponent in a minute, two if it is complicated. -players alternate phases. You move and charge, I move and charge, you shoot, I shoot, WE fight. There's not a moment where you aren't actively involved in the game. Additionally, the fact that you don't know who will move first the following turn adds a lot of tactical depth.

I haven't played a game of 40K since 7th edition. What has recently put me off the 40K setting entirely is literally not being able to buy any new products at all. If a company wants to sell me something they need to actually want to sell me something. Can't really do that when I check your website to buy something and there is no stock of anything that I want.

I am going to miss playing Ultramarines and starting off with 11 CPs and spending 9 of them before the battle and regenerating them all battle. But I'm not going to miss my side table collapsing under the weight of the rule books we have to have for reference to play a game. At least for awhile.

Can't wait for your thoughts on the Leviathan release,, I'm jonesing for my douse of Discourse!!! lol

My hope is that the Boarding Actions mode gets a 10th edition refresher because that one has all that I want from 40K: Small games, smaller rosters, nice terrain, solid line of sight rules, limited number of special rules.

For me its not the change of the core rules - its a change up to the missions and overhaul of the rules for the armies.

I'm waiting until we see a codex to say there won't be sub factions - I would be very surprised if they're just not in the indices, but will come back once each faction is fully fleshed out with their codex

I don’t often comment on these videos anymore, however, I DEMAND WARHAMMER BASS FISHING NOW! I will forgive everything in the last 3 editions if I can just pretend to catch fish on a table top game, instead of literally going fishing in the ocean outside my house.

The video dropped kind of at the wrong time... WarCom released the rules officially about 13 hours ago. This video released about 1hr after?

Im hoping they make the 500 point game system work well.

I hope you somehow address the current issue with lack of attribution for the rulebook (this is the first edition of 40k credited solely to the "Warhammer design studio". :S

I'll try it, but I lost enthusiasm after 7th ed. (Having started with 2nd Ed and done the tourney scene for a couple decades...) Been hiding in Kill Team and Necromunda ever since.

There was a pinning system in Epic and I believe in Space Hulk too

Hey @discourseminiatures why are you using pictures of my games room as a thumbnail?

I think the fact that the Codexes will be downloadable for free means they will be pretty slim, I guess they will definitely have new detachments. Also GW released the new Core Rules online yesterday.

“Change very little but act like you’ve changed a lot”

( 3:51 ) heavy adds 1 to the hit roll, not to the BS, and since bonuses to the hit roll are not stackable, you will never benefit from any other rules that give you +1 to hit (unless your opponent also happens to have a -1 to hit)

No psychic phase, leader ability, much less deadly weapons... That's no change?

Well, I am glad I made the move to OPR a while back.

I almost feel like pulling out my 3rd edition rules........almost

I desperately want a Warhammer Bass Fishing Switch game now!

Ha Ha I just finished reading 8th edition ! By the time I finish painting something and finish the book holy smolly something new !

I love making models, but every time I think about learning the actual gameplay (outside the basics), I look at the rules and "why bother" pops into my head. As I know it will just change soon enough anyway... It totally kills any motivation I muster to actually play.

Codices really needed before many of my armies are going to be usable..... and there's still a lot of bloat that could be sorted out... mainly in the number of entries that could be compressed into single ones with wargear options... don't need several varieties of primaris troops, primaris heavy troops etc. Would be far better to simply have Marines... with wargear options for the troop role, and add the option to upgrade to primaris and take alternate wagear (even put the weapons in tables on another page and say units/charts may select x choices from them like older editions)... 1 page entry for what covers several pages now, gives non primaris players less searching through the stuff they don't want. All in all much less hassle to build an army and might just be able to bring back some of the sadly lost variety in unit options that has been disappearing from the game. (looking at last CSM codex especially...)

Boltaction is a but more my style, but I'm considering trying one page rules

So it's basically 9th with new shoes

Your vidéo goes out : official pdf released

Oh well, if I was cynical I would say 10th was just an excuse to totally invalidate the old Codexis and sell you new ones again. It will start light and fill with bloat again... ah the start of 3rd edition those where the days :)

We've had morale and pinning systems in wargaming since the 1970s (at least). They are not new.

2 things tabletop players don't like; -when the ruleset changes -when the ruleset stays the same :D Maybe 10th is just a polished 9th edition. That's still pretty good, though ;)

The way the Battleshock rules are worded, it strongly implies you have to make a battleshock test for a unit under half strength for each of your turns. "In this step, you must take a Battle-shock test for each of your units on the battlefield that is Below Half-strength (pg 12). To do so, roll 2D6: if the result is greater than or equal to the best Leadership characteristic in that unit, the test is passed; otherwise, the test is failed and, until the start of your next Command phase, that unit is Battle-shocked." I could be wrong but that's what I got from that

As a narrative wargamer I actually am very concerned about simplified army construction rules. Whenever I build a force for a wargame I start not with the models but with a story for that force/commander, then I choose models to suit that narrative and rules that make me feel like I am playing out that narrative for my force on the table top. Gutting the army customization system takes me entirely out of it....I feel like I am the only individual who has disliked basically everything we have learned about army construction in 10th so far despite that being what the rest of the community is excited about...😢

Gonna be great waiting abother 5 years for a codex and then having the new edition dropped immediately afterwards. Yay.

I'm liking towering on my knights, no more getting shot at by stuff that I can't shoot back at

WHERE IS MY WARP-BASS FISHING SIMULATOR

the core of 40K hasnt changed in over 20 years since I last played. none of the editions really change the game, they never have. if you didnt like it before you wont like it now, I dont think anyone expects that. however small changes can make a big deal in the experience. even small changes in the presentation, with no rules changes, is an improvement to the experience. With the battleshock system you are claiming you can recover at the beginning of your command phase before you score, but remember you can also fail a battleshock right before you score as well. also rather than making a test as certain conditions happen, you must continue to test as long as the condition is in effect. this means far more tests being taken, even without special rules. your going to fail some. which ones is going to matter. will it be hugely impactful? no. will it have an impact? yes.

Nice balanced review, the Core rules changes are minor. I didn't think about the battleshocked unit having a chance to recover before scoring objectives. When you include the command point reroll that means that a unit has to fail up to four tests to not claim an objective they are sitting on. The big changes are in the faction rules, but as you said we haven't seen much of them. I know looking at my armies they are changing most from the faction rules. 10th edition is very much a tweak to 9th edition. Being so successful GW didn't want to rock the boat. The main game being so complicated has been helped by GW actually spending attention on smaller games, and encouraging playing Combat Patrol. Its an important point and one I feel was one of the main reasons Warhammer Fantasy died.

I have decided to wait and let the dust settle especially after yesterday's migration of HH units to legends, instead i dropped a few sheckles with Warlord Games at UKGE, didn't see you there 😂

I miss 5th ed... Not the best, but it was phenomenal.

Battleshock HAPPENS in your command phase.

Personally I feel like the 3 year life cycle of editions that GW has chosen to go with, combined with having more than 3 games is simply stupid from a customer point of view. Between WH40K, Kill Team, AoS, Warcry, HorusHeresy and the many specialists games there is simply too much for most players to keep up with more than an army or two. Nevermind multiple armies in multiple systems. I mean I'm interested in a couple of things from Necromunda and AoS, but the added cost to my hobby budget is simply impossible for me to handle.

I really want to love Warhammer again, but GW make it so hard.

A leak, ...... oh my ....... how surprising........

I thought the same thing when I read through them!

Morale/Battleshock is kind of the eternal conundrum 'i'n'i't? On the one hand for a war game, it feel very natural that losing troops should affect your guys somehow, on the other.....this is 40k imperial guard are realistically the only army that should feel any kind of shell shock on a regular basis but, that'd be lame on the table top if only guard had to take morale tests

As I beginner I think 10th edition is actually perfect for beginners. Especially with Combat and Boarder Patrol. A army in a box with simplified datasheets. Because they are heavily promoting combat patrol especially with the launch edition box.