Exactly!!!

It also matters greatly where the apex of the edge is. For example: All DW drums have the same bearing edge... a single 45 degree cut where the apex is at the outer most part of the shell. This is done to minimize the contribution from the shell to the overall sound of the drum. This is why all DW drums sound the same and only SUCKAZ buy expensive DW drums with fancy wood types... because DW Drums are made on purpose to all sound the same no matter what... which is great if you like that sound. You always know you're going to get it, even if you buy their crappiest bottom of the barrel kit. Having the apex of the bearing edge in the middle of the shell maximizes shell contribution, which is great if you have great wood, thats well-manufactured, and the edges have been resurfaced by hand by a professional.

respectfully disagree. from my experience it will make a difference if the bearing edge sits at the very edge of the drum like so many snares because it will press against the underside of the head's collar and slightly diminish the resonance of the head. As long as it's "off the collar" the head will resonate as unrestricted as possible but (from my experience) it doesn't matter if it's slightliy off the collar or cut as close to the center of the shell as possible. the sharpness/roundness of the edge and whether or not the collar of the head is seated directly on the edge is what makes the only difference in sound@@BeatsAndMeats

@@ghiblinerd6196 Similar to how Sonar makes their shells slightly undersized so the shell always contacts the flat part of the head! But iconic snares like the OG Tama Bell Brass have oversized shells, which are actually quite difficult to tune, but it’s the best sounding snare ever… so maybe the best answer is “it depends“?

there are always exceptions to the rule@@BeatsAndMeats

Thanks a lot! I hope we get more subs in the future :)

hahaha thanks for encouraging 🤣🍻

*looking.

1) Well I think Remos production-process is as even and professional as it gets in drumheads. If you got heads with a natural material it's a different story. The plastic material and aluminum rims are pretty even as they are massproduced. 2) You can hear in the video that even with our amount of care that there are small pitch differences. There is a difference between pitch and frequency response. You can clearly hear how the overtones and the sustain of the fundamental notes change independend of the slight pitch differences. Obviously it's easier to match the pitch on 4 toms standing right next to each other instead of using one head on 4 shells, one after the other. 3) We used the same model of mic so I think that's still a pretty close match. You have to imagine how bad and uneven those mics have to be in order to really falsify the results THAT bad. And if they did, they could never falsify the sustain but only the frequency content. But just imagine how different they have to be in order to falsify those results. Why do engineers like certain models of mics more than others? Because they know what they can get out of them and they know what they sound like. If you ask engineers who worked in lots of different studios, they will tell you the same thing. 4) The room is treated and the mics were placed very close to the drums. If you just record in an untreated room at home, you might place the tom in the wrong spot an catch a room mode. In a professional studio the rooms are treated to avoid these kinds of modes and problems. And again - try to imagine how bad the room has to be in order to falsify the results so much that our results would be not valid. And after all of this you could think about what the results really tell us: They´re not contrary to the believes most of the drum makers were telling people all those years. The assumption most people had was: a steeper edge will make more overtones and more high frequencies. And that's exactely what our results pointed out. If all of the factors you named falsified the tests as much, then the results should have been contrary to the assumptions- don't you think? I think our viewers see that we don't wear lab coats in the video and a human being is playing the toms instead of a standardizes robot. But still I think our results and the whole test are pretty valid. If you published a similar test before, we were not aware of it and we did not want to devalue your test in any way. I have seen some videos that people did in bearing edges, but I haven't seen a test like this, otherwise I wouldn't have claimed it in the video.

@@stdrumsgmbh as a drum maker who has built a few thousand drums and fitted even more heads on even more drums, i can tell you that yes, most same drum heads sound the same, until you get one that does not :) The problem with heads is not always obvious, but even when the material is the same, age and shape has a huge influence. I quite often throw away heads when they are brand new but have a bad shape, and do not sit even on the drum. I first check the bearing edges, but if they are perfect, it is the head. Does not happen often, but it happens. Anyhow, i am just saying that sameness of heads and mikes were not tested and proven, so it has to be assumed.

@@adorodrums This is going to be our last statement in this discussion: How can you claim we did not test the heads just because it's not shown in the video? After we build the drums and put the heads on them, Andreas recieved the Toms from us, removed all of the heads and put them back on again. With his level of expertise I am certain he would have realised any differences in the heads. Also you can listen to the results closely and ask yourself if a faulty drumhead would have falsified the results that much, to make the results not valuable. Listen closely to the changes in frequency and sustain and ask yourself if those changes would only be caused by a faulty drumhead. (by the way age is not a factor - all of them were brand new from the same delivery) Regarding the mics: We interviewed 4 people in the video to give their subjective experience. all of them individually tested the drums live. 2 of them even tested the drums in other rooms too. And we even put the toms in our showroom so all of our customers can play and listen with their own ears to them live aswell. So even if the mics made such a big difference, why did the participants get the same results with their subjective hearing? (Again: they did not just listen in the controlroom - they tested them in the recording room.) If you have your own take on bearing edges, please make a video on the topic and show your results and let's see if they are any different. I think it would help the whole drum community to get the most objective results on the topic. But please don't keep writing more and more arguments under this video. Our comment section is not the place to advertise your business, you got your own channel for that. You've put forward your claims (which is totally fine) and we responded to every single one, let us not turn this into an endless discussion. We wish you a nice week! :)

@@stdrumsgmbh sorry, did not intent to bother you. I was just pointing out the many variables that there are. When it comes to sonic differences of bearing edges, and we supported a student who wrote his bachelor about it, you have to eliminate every possible variable. And most people do not realize that even a similar head, mike and tuning can have a huge impact.

@@stdrumsgmbh I think its perfectly fine for someone to point out that your test is far from being carried out under controlled conditions. There is too many variables, for example; for conclusive results this test would have to be carried out several times using several heads, swapping mics and using the exact amount of force and contact with the head, then having a list of results in which to draw averages from. Attacking someone for saying your experiment sucks and the results are garbage.

The Older Gretsch had what they called Tone Controls (Muffles) that could be adjusted to suit the ring/overtones the drummer wanted. Due to the mounting requirements of the vintage Gretsch 12x8 toms you could not remove the lower head. My dad actually took the resonant head cut the head leaving about 2 inches all around and mounted them. No loss in sound quality/volume, but made a difference in the overtones. It also simplified the tone adjustment to 1 head instead of having to adjust both when playing live.

Vielen Dank für das nette Feedback! 😁

Thanks for the comment! yes there are lots of interesting parameters yet to compare and to measure. I hope we will be able to make more videos like this to explore how these parameters shape the sound

In the video he explains how much he has studied bearing edges and that there is actually only One type of edge that is perfect for use with modern plastic shells and that the old drums had different bearing edge types because they were being used with calf skin heads that can basically confirm to any drum and take a time, that’s why when people bring him drums to be surfaced and re edges he only offers one option

Hi, wir haben versucht die Stimmung so gut wie möglich identisch zu halten (abgesehen vom Ende, wo die runde und 60° Trommel umgestimmt wird). Ich finde auch, dass unterschiedliche Tonhöhen im Direktvergleich immer vom Sound ablenken, allerdings habe ich nicht das Gefühl, dass die Stimmungen hörbar krass auseinanderliegen. Aber klar auch da gibt es immer noch feinere Ohren - das will ich dir nicht absprechen :) Wenn man sich auf das Sustainverhalten von Grundton und die "Härte" vom Fellsound konzentriert kann man aber trotz Stimmunterschieden die Auswirkung der Gratung ganz gut raushören. Die Toms stehen in unserem Showroom und können gerne auch vor Ort angespielt und umgestimmt werden! (Ich dachte: "Bier"ing Etsch 🍻 )🤣

@@stdrumsgmbh Ich bin da ganz bei @flocore. Vielen Dank für die Mühen! Mit einem TuneBot und Aufhängung der Trommeln auf RIMS hättet Ihr viele Variablen rausnehmen können. Ausserdem stand das 45-Grad-Tom nur teilweise über Teppich, alle anderen über Teppich und das kann einen riesigen Unterschied machen.

Great question about the concert Toms. I think in general it might also affect the higher frequencies but I think I would go for a sharper edge if you tend to tune them very low. For higher tuning I would make it less sharp.

@stdrumsgmbh I have a set of Pearl Fiberglass drums. Many sizes so fat, but only a few concert toms. Once I acquire a few more, I will be rewraping them all to match. Will probably have all the edges gone over, especially the concert toms. I have (2) 24 and 1 22" kick. Looking for a 20" now if possible. 10,12,13 rack toms, 15,16,18 floor toms, 8,10 concerts. Wanting to find 12,13,14,15 concerts too. 😀

Danke für den Kommentar und das nette Feedback! Wir haben die Trommeln vorher (und nachher) auch an anderen Orten angespielt und das Ergebnis im Video deckt sich mit der subjektiven Erfahrung, wenn man die Trommeln vor sich hört. Deshalb bin ich zuversichtlich, dass das Video recht aussagekräftig ist. Ich denke bei einer so nahen Mikrophonierung und im akustisch behandelten Raum sollte der Klang schon relativ objektiv sein - aber klar: besser und genauer geht immer, da hast du recht ;)

yes it's possible, but you may loose a couple milimeters of the height of the shell - but not significantly

I think with larger drums there is a similar conclusion: for a punchy sound with articulate attack, you should probable use a sharper angle and a thicker stiffer shell and for a mellow vintage/jazzy type sound, you should use a round edge or a flatter angle and if possible a thinner shell.

@@stdrumsgmbh Im thinking for the cocktail kick/floor tom, it would be interesting to use eg 60 deg for the kick side (and min round) and a 30 or 45 on the top side. Not sure the natural fundamental is but the shell height is 605mm. Likely will need an emad or something light on the tom/top side. Im making a 10" snare for it...hmm that raises more questions..Vielen Dank!

old MD421, which those are, can sound way different!! Absolutly right!!

I think they all sounded the same

He didn’t party as hard

thanks for the nice feedback! We tried to focus on testing the shapes we do for our customers the most. Of course the video should be interesting for everybody, but in this case it will help them to decide which version to choose.

Using snare stands was just the easiest way for the purpose of the test - as they stand all on snare stands, the effect should be equal on all the toms. We didn't want the greatest possible sound, but just test the difference between the bearing edges

@@stdrumsgmbh I understand, but the difference in a proper stands (or little butty shakers installed on snare stands) would be much bigger between them.

Yes, because of our famous german national drink ;)

*45 degree, use the space.

So dreist ist das gar nicht 😁 ich glaube du hast da recht. Meistens ergibt sich aber aus einem steileren Winkel weniger Fellkontakt zum Holz. Theoretisch könnte man (um mal einen Extremfall zu beschreiben) am Kesselrand ganz vorne und ganz hinten 1mm mit 60° abfräsen und dann die Mitte flach lassen - diese Kombination würde wohl trotz 60° Winkel mehr abdämpfen als die Runde Gratung 🙂 Also "nur" am Winkel liegt es sicher nicht.

@@stdrumsgmbh Na ja ich bau seit 1991 Djembe und da hab ich schon so manchen Grat gefeilt, ganz unbelastet bin ich also nicht, und genau das war mir eben aufgefallen an Eurer Grafik.. ;-).

Maybe we can test some rooms next time ;) I think you missed the point of the video: This video is not about what has the biggest effect on a recording process. This video is about bearing edges on drums - we just shot it in a recording studio in order to get high quality recording that would make the frequency content clear. I don't know your background but I would love to see your video on the topic. It's easy to sit back and say "bearing edges and shell material don't matter at all" but proving your point with tests like we did in our video is the way to backup claims like that. We are confident in our results and we display those four toms in our showroom for everybody who comes in to test them. If you don't hear a difference that's ok to me, but if other people do hear a difference you might have to accept that there might be a difference. We included not only the original recorded sounds in the video but also 4 individual people describing what they heared subjectively. I can't do more to prove our point.

🤣 This comment is garbage. The point of the video is to compare the effect of different bearing edges on drums. Take a rounded edge Ludwig from the 60s and a modern edge DW from the mid 90s into the same room in a recording studio and tell me "it doesn't make a difference". How an instrument sounds at the source has an enormous impact on what it sounds like *in a room* and in turn the recording decisions in order to get a good sound. Which mics to use, which heads to use, muffling, and on and on.

@@cymatic83 Thanks for adding some context to your original post.. My point is that in all the variables that one takes into account when recording a sound, bearing edge has the least impact of them all.. which is why we have a million bearing edge solutions to a problem we never had. Unless you can find me a producer who believes otherwise?

On on some level and a different times in a long history of playing music we all agree with you but that’s not the point here. Buddy rich once said you don’t tune a drum you just tighten it actually he said you don’t tune a drum you tighten it: but that didn’t stop him and probably wouldn’t stop you from visiting the Zildjian factory if you were given a tour by Mr. Zildjian. Your comment seems to reflect your mood and let’s forgive that rare artist who does it labor over mixing his colors the way van Gogh did. Would we still love van Gogh would van Gogh if you could say that if he could just order his colors at Amazon and have it delivered the next day? I was reprimanded at RCA studios by some older colleagues when I was a young beginner in New York for bringing my own favorite drum and cymbals And traps to a gig That included Frank Sinatra and Enough luminaries to keep us rehearsing for 10 days and Recording for pre-records and dance rehearsals. The other percussionist were Dave Carrey and George Devens and they scolded me rightfully saying to just use whatever the rental company brought to the gig and not bring my own stuff. All things considered and the nature of the commercial music industry and the expectation for the musician to make it happen regardless of the equipment is now well understood by me and many others. But let’s consider the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas when he said that wherever there is a frame there is sacred space. Within that sacred space we are next inclined to harmonize. And if --this is a big if and occurs only rarely we can go to the next step then we would be expected to be able to illuminate that sacred space within that frame in which an object is harmonized. So if we as musicians are using sound to reflect exactly the emotion that we are feeling, then we just us and the artist might be forgiven for obsessing the same way Van Gogh obsessed over ‘yellow’ or Red. Even to the point of spending money he didn’t have his material. Sorry for any mistakes in the writing but I hope you get my drift. Sincerely, Michael Hinton percussionist. Just one of an inexhaustible definitions for genius is the ability to articulate your self 100%.

@@michaeljhintonpiano too long to read dude, you have way too much time on your hands

thanks for the comment! it is very tough to say exactely what the result will be. In general a flatter bearing edge with more contact will have a dampening effect on the drumheads which means the higher overtones will be reduced and ring shorter, but also the dampening will shorten the sustain of the fundamental a bit aswell. We also sell acrylic shell and use them pretty frequently, but we haven't dont a test with them similar to this video to get a deeper look on the behaviour with a flatter edge. I don't think you would be able to make them sound as warm as wood, but it still should sound different compared to a sharper edge. In theory the sustain should get shorter and the attack might be less "clicky" but because it's acrylic I guess it might still have plenty of punch anyways

​@@stdrumsgmbh Thank you for your response. I'm going to have to think about that.

My Pearl fiberglass concert toms from the 70s & 80s have round edges, I wondered why when I got them, but dampening overtones and increasing bottom end would make sense.

@@markuschakra yes, I guess the fiberglass shells are harder and would naturally have a higher overtone content compared to softer materials like wood. I think the round edges balance that out a bit.

thanks for the comment! The toms in the video are 12x8". I am not 100% sure that I can identify the buzz you mean but I will have to listen again on better speakers. Did you experiment with different clear heads?

@@stdrumsgmbh No I didn't but I did try coated emperors and ambassadors.

Try another brand. I notice it with remo a lot