God never commanded polygamy. All true scripture preaches against it. Joseph never practiced it. In fact, Joseph preached against it publicly often. To believe that he practiced it in secret while publicly denying it is to believe that he was a liar, fornicator, pedophile and duplicitous. I believe that Joseph was a true prophet and was framed by wolves in sheep's clothing pretending to be his friends - including Brigham Young, John Taylor, Willard Richards, Heber C. Kimball and other. Polygamy was Brigham's apostate invention. Study the provinance of D&C 132. Didn't show up until 8 years after Joseph was martyred. #132 wasn't canonized until 1876 when it replaced the original D&C 101, which commanded monogamy. So much evidence against polygamy.

I feel the exact same way.

So basically following your legalistic thinking is to just decide which side of the coin you like better and go with that 🤔.. good luck with that.

@@jlyman1942 Not at all. What I mean is that there are people who take any antagonistic source “with a grain of salt” while ignoring the similar biases of faithful sources. We need to look at both very carefully and since you can recognize patterns in many of both types of accounts, there is definitely some validity to even the antagonistic sources. Also, look, one of the reasons so many people leave the church over things like this is that most members have been given 2 narratives: 1. That either the individual is a false prophet or 2. That “when speaking as a prophet” they are always right. Interestingly, for many teachings we no longer accept, we have decided they simply weren’t speaking as prophets. However, to those prophets and everyone they were speaking to at the time, they WERE speaking as prophets. So when someone reads accounts of some extremely disturbing teachings and you have those 2 narratives, even one mistake means “he must not have been a prophet at all” and people leave the church. Either that, or they try really hard (and sometimes fail) to rationalize why God would command such a thing, often just throwing their hands up and declaring “we just weren’t meant to understand right now”. I don’t accept either narrative since I have seen both the good brought about and I can also recognize the bad. Like almost everything in life, including individuals and organizations like the church, we are neither all good nor all bad, but something fuzzy in between, and trying to become better each day. Almost nothing in church history is as black and white as we have generally been taught.

I am with you. I appreciate how you acknowledge both ends as possibilities and you still don't know which is the case. Its uncomfortable sitting in the grey area but so often a grey conclusion is all we can responsibly conclude. The more I learn about history, the gospel, and the world the more I realize how much I don't know and how much we as the human race don't know. I too have a strong faith in Jesus Christ and what I believe to be His restored Church. Thank you for your faith.

I agree. President Nelson and Oaks both currently have more than one wife. The practice was taken away because the Saints were not up to living it as a whole. The Lord could have allowed plural marriage to continue if he desired it. As we are working towards Zion, and Zion is built on celestial law, we can expect plural marriage to return. Do we want to be a part of Zion?

@@denaecoco400 the practice was stopped because the government was threatening to confiscate church property, particularly temples, and President Woodruff had to decide which was more important: continuing a cultural practice that was never historically an important “doctrine” even biblically but somehow rose to become the pinnacle exalting doctrine of the church, OR allow temple work to continue. I think he made a good call. Those who didn’t agree tended to start fundamentalist splinter groups, and understandably. It’s a hard thing to be told for decades how vital plural marriage is, only to be later told “we’re just going to stop doing this thing now.”

Exactly! This is one part as to why people have a problem with polygamy…bc it’s technically still practiced/endorsed for men. It still puts women in a lesser than position, and the Heavenly Parents I know don’t believe women are lesser than.

@@CarolineAnderson5678 In our culture and traditions, we have a hard time seeing plural marriage as God does. Through our eyes, it may appear only advantageous to men and not women. However, I know that Heavenly Father has a different perspective than us. His plan is giving us his fullness of glory if we are worthy, to include plural marriage. Because I know Heavenly Father loves me, I absolutely have faith that plural marriage exalts and is glorious for both men and women.

Being sealed to someone is not a "sentence" forever to it. Sealing is to unit the children of mankind. While there is an end to "giving in marriage" at the resurrection, previous to that, during the millennium, there is still choice. Even now, a child has to be sealed up. That is where the Links come from. Even if his parents were divorced. If there was another marriage, they can also be sealed in order to seal UP the children born to them. That tells me there is more to this than we know and understand. To me it is about the way it has to be Organized in an Order to unit ALL the children.

Thank you for your perspective as a single woman. I know that through plural marriage all righteous men and women will have the opportunity at the highest degree of the celestial kingdom and have the blessings of an eternal family. Yes, President Nelson and Oaks are both sealed to two women, as are many others.

And do not forget to pay tithing to the multi billion dollar enterprise.

Of course men are in favor of it. Funny thing...a man commanded it and still to this day continue to support it. 🙄

God didn't command any such thing. They are perpetuating lies that you WANT to believe.

Well said.

I agree that it was difficult for the prophet to implement and he had to even have his life threatened by angels to get him to do so. We always mention how the women, the 1st wives, may have felt initially but perhaps when they prayed to receive confirmation they realized it was just as much of a test for their husbands as well since husbands would not be able to practice this out of lust and I'm sure that was a temptation for some of the men even if it was never recorded in their journals for us to read about.

This is a humbling idea for me to consider..

I think in coming days you will have more opportunities for Abrahamic tests in your life. The reinstatement of celestial law, to include plural marriage, as we build Zion will be a huge test for many members. As President Nelson counseled, strengthen your spiritual foundation now so you will be able to withstand the tests.

I think all of your sacrifices are worthy, but personally I would never seek to be “blessed” with an Abrahamic sacrifice. You would essentially be asking, “Which of Your commandments would You like to ask me to break to prove my utmost devotion?”

@@richardmanwaring5786 I personally do not feel I would need to break any commandments to prove myself. Instead, I feel its more like what is the most difficult if not almost impossible act/behavior for me to give willingly to Him that's above and beyond what I already do.

@@leslieshelton1835 I actually completely agree with that first sentence. I think we’re just getting hung up on how we each define Abrahamic sacrifice. I am simply looking at the original example of Abraham himself, and if something doesn’t meet the same conditions, I don’t consider it “Abrahamic”. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, going against what God had specifically commanded people not to do. He was asked to break/contradict one of God’s own laws to prove that he would do whatever God asked. I believe any sacrifice we make for the Lord is appreciated by Him, and a willingness to sacrifice the things we cherish for His sake when asked, is indeed noble, as I think the second part of your reply touches on. But I just don’t know about desiring this type of scenario of “Hey you know how evil it was that your dad almost sacrificed you and I told you all not to do that? I now want you to do that to your own son to see if you’ll do whatever I ask.” Also, Abraham didn’t have to go through with it. So a true Abrahamic sacrifice would also not require someone to even break the commandment…which makes it a stretch to me to apply it to plural marriage, except when Joseph asked for Heber Kimball’s wife but then didn’t go through with it at the last minute. Of course he later married Heber’s 14 year old daughter so that part I wouldn’t consider Abrahamic, just wrong.

I agree. It just doesn't add up. I understand reverence for sacred things, but it doesn't feel right how Joseph Smith & the early members had to practice polygamy it in such secrecy. If it's truly a commandment, why would the Prophet swear people to secrecy? Probably because at the time, there were laws against bigamy and they were technically all breaking the law. But wait--Joseph Smith writes the 12 Articles of Faith (that reference honoring and sustaining the law), meanwhile at that very time breaking the law by practicing polygamy. 🤔

Have you ever lied to your spouse because you took loyalty to your parents instead?

I’m totally with you. The harsh, but clear explanation of all this is that Joseph did not, in fact, ever practice polygamy. He never condoned it. It was a conspiracy within some leaders of the church and they spent the coming years after his death trying to weave these stories into church history and pin it on him. There is no contemporary evidence to back up the fact that he did it. Only hearsay 3rd hand stories from decades later. If this seems entirely out of Jospeh’s character, that’s because it is! He is innocent! And the JS Papers project has brought this to light.

Good question. I think it is possible but until we receive more enlightenment on the subject I wouldn't put much money on it. Definitely a fun one to wrestle.

Agreed.

Amen! There’s is too much evidence out there now that he fought against it publicly and privately! Please stop speaking evil of the Lords anointed by teaching that he was an adulterer. Please stop perverting the eternal nature of women. Please stop perverting the eternal nature of our Heavenly Parents by teaching this is of God. It is not. The Book of Mormon is clear on polygamy. It stinks the church’s curriculum dept can’t revise this subject. Too many Mormons KNOW that Joseph, Hyrum and Emma spoke the truth about polygamy! We should believe then!

@@ToddCellaUtah I add my Amen! Evidence that the church has, for whatever reason has kept secret.

I love your testimony! I challenge you to extend your testimony to include plural marriage, as it is an eternal and celestial principle. I know you can gain one of it as you have of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.

Oh, but it is required of you. By your login name, I'm guessing you are female. If you're married and sealed to your current husband, and you die, and he remarries, he can be sealed to this new wife. You are now a polygamist wife. If he dies and you remarry, you don't have the same option. The Church still practices polygamy. Don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise. It is still "our revelation". Only it's serial polygamy, not the parallel polygamy as introduced by Brigham Young and Heber Kimball, et al.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's what the key of knowledge is. I don't think the Prophet controls/governs the Holy Ghost, the 3rd member of the godhead. But for sure we are limited in our knowledge both because those involved are dead and pretty much all historical records are ambiguous to varying degrees.

Abraham was stopped from killing Isaac. I see no one stopping anyone from practicing polygamy. Stupid analogy. God requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That's the New sacrifice unless you didn't get the memo.

Wait, whaat? It is going to come back in this life? How do you know this?

I think so...

My understanding of baptism in African countries is that men culturally married to more than one woman are not allowed to be baptized into the church. It was more openly discussed then, but now I haven't heard anything addressing the dilemma that these families are put under to join the church and be baptized or even take on them temple covenants and ordinances.

​@@jum5238 This is why gay marriage and plural marriage are in the same boat. Neither is from God. Just because the African nation want to be plygs doesn't mean God will change his mind about polygamy and Gay marriage to accommodate their lifestyle. God is unchanging. Monogamy is the marriage system of God. a careful study of Church history and the restoration of the gospel does not allow for abomination.

Or the girl who was not complying with polygamy..............

He had an affair with the maid Fanny Alger before the First Vision. Plural marriage was created to justify his extramarital affairs and to coax women in.

@@charlesmendeley9823 The Fanny Alger event never happened. It was fabricated, along with all the false documents of his polygamy, after he was dead, in order to make it right for those who were practicing polygamy.

Marriage is not a commandment either.

Most of them were essentially divvied up between Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball (and a few others) as their wives for time but were sealed to Joseph for eternity. At that time to be sealed to someone dead for eternity meant whoever stood in as proxy became your husband for “time”. We don’t have definitive knowledge of any births/pregnancies during Joseph Smith’s life though there are some references to suggest it happened

After watching another video, I learned that DNA has proven that there's only 1 possible child of Joseph's from polygamy but it can't be proved with current technology. If I'm explaining it right, the living descendant also had other Smith heritage so they couldn't tell if the DNA match came Joseph Smith or from the other Smith's that married into that line.

I think it was harder on the women. Don’t forget, one the U. S. started to enforce the illegality of polygamy, second and third wives were driven “underground” keeping their marriage hidden. Most of these women had very little support and lived very poor without public support from their husbands. They also had to live with the knowledge of a shared sexual relationship of their husbands without fully knowing what was happening.

@@jdrobinson4865 yeah, I think the biggest thing was those hidden wives raising families as single moms. That would have been so hard!

Yes, some of the first-hand accounts are gut wrenching. So terribly hard for these women and children. Many were destitute. The church would have been far better off and even scientifically would have produce more offspring in better better family conditions without polygamy.

You avoid the fact that you have been fooled by a conman.

Plural marriage was required of a minority of members from the timeframe Anthony mentioned. It was never obligatory (By the man or the woman). Outside of that timeframe, the churches stance is that a marriage is consists between 1 man and 1 woman. In the year 1998, a previous prophet and president (Gordon Hinckley) stated: "“If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose.".

Plural or celestial marriage as it was called at the time was obligatory in a sense because it was required to reach the highest level in the celestial kingdom. This was a doctrine that use to be taught more…that there’s three levels in the celestial kingdom: 1) for non-married, 2) for monogamous marriages, and 3) for polygamous or celestial marriages. Polygamy started with Joseph, but by the time it ended was practiced throughout almost the entire church.

Several general authorities are sealed to two wives.

PA p

We are talking about a rebranding here. Nelson wants to get rid of "Mormonism" exactly because it is connotative with polygamy.

Hi Pathfinder! I can understand why you feel as you do. From a woman's perspective, polygamy in general and polyandry in particular are just plain strange and hard to deal with. I'm grateful, firstly, that Christ is the Center of my faith, and He does away with unrealistic expectations for His servants, such as presentism and perfectionism. Our faith, our focus and our foundation must be in Christ and in Him alone (Helaman 5:12). But when we face difficult questions and issues with Christ at our side, we grow spiritually whether we get the answers we want or not. I recommend this video for further information from a faithful source. She happens to be a woman so I find her perspective particularly compelling and empathetic. I hope you enjoy it and that your faith in Christ brings you peace in this, His restored Church. I witness that He lives and that this Church has always been and will ever be in His hands. :) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/icVkm7WInZuok58.html

It never happened. Joseph and Hyrum both fought against it. Only after Joseph was dead and could not defend himself did all the allegations come forth against him.

Saints Unscripted has a video on this subject where they dive into the historical evidence of polygamous physical relationships (consummation) taking place. Its a great video, I recommend you check it out. It shows facts and references instead of gossip and hearsay.

In support of the dynastic marriage concept, I believe Joseph was sealed to other men as well.

There is no positive mention in the Book of Mormon, only negative... If the BoM is the cornerstone of the LDS, Polygamy should never have happened.

@@charlesmendeley9823 are you referring to Ezra Taft Benson?

@@cpt.moroni3092 Jacob 2:24-,26

@@charlesmendeley9823 do you understand the context of what was happening with the Nephites? I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of god. I don’t believe he was doing what the Nephites where doing. Aka committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon.

@@cpt.moroni3092 I know the context, but from what I have read, I am rather inclined to believe that polygamy was not of God but that Joseph Smith invented it for pleasure. His affair with Fanny Alger predated even his First Vision, so any claim of a plural marriage to her is an attempt to backdate things as an excuse for Emma.

What he means by "this isn't our revelation" is that God commands some things to some people and other things to others. Plural marriage was forbidden to the Nephites -- that was their revelation -- but commanded, or at least allowed, to the early Latter-day Saints -- that was their revelation -- and then once again not allowed after the Manifesto. Whatever God commands is right for its time and place. Saying "this isn't our revelation" is not running from the problem; it is acknowledging that there are things we don't understand because we were not of others' times and places or because God has not revealed them to us personally or to the Church collectively. It is trusting that all things will be revealed in their time and in their place and in God's way. Even though the Manifesto ended the practice officially, it continued because it took time for people to accept that what they had sacrificed so much to obey was no longer allowed. It takes time for people, especially as they grow older, to adjust to new commandments and practices. The Lord knows this and is patient with us in our weakness. The bottom line is this: What has the Lord commanded each of us both through His servants and through the Spirit? On judgment day, everyone will be accountable to God individually. What each of us believes and what each of us does is a matter of individual responsibility. And each of us will be judged as mercifully as we have judged others.

I have done much research and I now believe Joseph Smith was not a polygamist so he wasn't apedophile either.

@icecreamladydriver1606 the Gospel Topics Essays (put out by the church) admit to polygamy and polyandry. So I am not sure what research you've done, but it is clearly not enough. The only reason given for polygamy in DC 132 and Jacob 4 is to raise a righteous seed. So sex was a factor. Why wad Helen Mar Kimball not allowed to go to dances with boys her age?

@@SloanTSmart I am not sure what you are talking about in Jacob 4 as that talks about Christ and things other than polygamy. Jacob 2 sternly speaks against it and you can back that up in Jacob 3. Yes there was polygamy but what they left out was all the information about Joseph, Hyrum and Emma fighting against it. There was much adultry taking place by the "brethren" and Joseph was trying to stamp it all out. You don['t need polygamy to raise up righteous seed. Adam, Noah and his sons, Lehi and his sons all proved that. 132 was handed to Brigham Young and was very changed from the actual content of what Joseph supposedly said. Helen Mar Kimball event didn't happen and neither did Fanny Alger. Why the leaders choose to accept the lies, I don't know.

@icecreamladydriver1606 explain the Happiness Letter. Besides, Joe did bang Fanny Alger. Oliver Cowdry said so. He cheated on and lied to Emma. He tried to get with Nancy Rigden, and wrote her the Happiness Letter. Prophets and Apostles, and even BYU professors quoted it, including professor Sweat here, and ascribe it to Joe, bit without the context of the letter.

@@SloanTSmart Prophets and apostles say lots of things. Remember the infamous letter encouraging members to take a toxic jab and called it safe and effective? Do you know the date that Oliver Cowdry's statement was disclosed? A whole lot of things were said after Joseph was dead. Including the Happiness letter. I don't really care what people who are on the church payroll say and BYU is pretty much under scrutiny so I wouldn't put too much faith in them.

Go to the channel called 132 problems. Michelle stone has done very extensive work on this. Hemlock knots is another channel where you will find a lot of truth unveiled. The Book of Mormon is true and Joseph was a real prophet.

Yes go watch 132 problems. You will learn stuff you never considered because the church doesn't teach it. Even though they have access to the records in the Joseph Smith Papers and other sources they won't release like the rest of William Clayton's journals. There is a completely different narrative to consider in if you are interested in getting to the bottom of the truth

Right, plural marriage is an eternal principle, and the foundation of the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

I was engaged to a woman who accepted that if polygamy was commanded by the Lord, she would do so. I marveled that she would give up so much (in my eyes) to be faithful to the Lord. As a man I was willing to do so as well, but not strictly for sexual purposes, but to support women who might not otherwise have companionship or a helpmeet. (I would anticipate intimacy as it related to fulfilling needs or desiring children.) I didn't marry her, though I believe (for other reasons) that my cohesion with a friend and spouse would have been much better with her. I married another woman who is even now enduring a crisis of faith over this element of the gospel, and has stated she wants no part of it. I also have had to explain to her that if she were to try to put herself between me and the Lord (and she has in church or temple attendance, or fulfilling my calling as a ministering brother, particularly to females assigned to me and my companion, etc), she would not prevail. I put the Lord first. It's been a difficult marriage. I felt I received revelation regarding these two women that spoke to my ability to get to the Celestial Kingdom, but that it would be a much more difficult path with my wife (than with the other woman, who I greatly admire for many aspects of her spiritual nature.) It would have been an easier path with the woman I was engaged to previously. It's a struggle I deal with often in my choice, because of the difficulty of the path I'm on. I endure for a number of reasons, but especially because I was told I'd make it to the celestial kingdom. It's difficult in that I have not been sealed to my wife despite my desires, and it's been difficult enough to where I struggle with the possibility that she may change her mind at some point. It's been a bit of a living hell.... she doesn't share the same spiritual priorities, and she's so very judgemental and presumptuous about how she believes I should live my life, and even presumes to know what I'm thinking and why, assuming the worst of me. I find it difficult to even be a friend at times.

Agency is eternal. Children will be able to choose which parent they want to be sealed to in the next life, when their parents are married to other people.

Nope. My brother took forever to be sealed to his second wife because he had to first cancel the sealing to his first wife. It took months. Same thing happened to my relief society pres husband. It took longer to cancel his sealing than hers. But both had to be done

Sir, it is with an open heart zi say this. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and your interpretation of events as is each one of us. Peace

A lot of people like to say that in the bible those men were commanded, (not saying that is what you are saying), by God when in reality Abraham and Jacob were commanded only by their wife at the time, to take their slaves and use them to produce children for themselves as was the custom of the culture. As for all the others it was just uncontrolled testosterone. God didn't send Hagar and Ismael away, Sarah did that. Then God saved Hagar and Ishmael from dying of lack of water and food. And Joseph Smith never did practice nor preach polygamy. It was all a lie after he was dead.

It never happened so there is nothing to worry about. A lot of our history has been changed from Brigham Young onward.