Based Tag and Bink fan

@@shahzebhasan9995 Who?

@@gigastrike2 famous Star Wars parody comic that makes a similar joke (the comic is really good, so much so that the characters (though not their full story) of Tag and Bink were made canon in the Solo: A Star Wars Story Novelisation)

I know I'm the one who asked, but I decided to Google it, and it turns out Manny Bothans is the cousin of Dustin Echoes. The more you know.

A sadly martyred character in an alt-universe comedy comic that needs a long lasting Colbert Bump nowadays.

I think it actually works fine, especially when it later brings up the ethics of genocide

I'm also mixed on the sudden revelation that there are, presumably, at least two lifeless, dead, turbolaser-glassed rocks in the galaxy not too far from Bothawi that were once the homeworlds of intelligent species who warred with the Bothans so hard that the Bothans declared genocide *nessecary for the survival of their species*, and they went through with it. Granted, I *like* that this is something messy and messed up that I have mixed feelings about, it feels true to real-life history in some ways because of that, but that's a hell of a thing to just throw in without foreshadowing. Feels like there could've been an entire, dedicated NJO book entirely about Bothan characters, on Bothauwi, trying to push Bothan Politics in the direction to support the Republic that could have set this up, acknowledged the past before it became plot-relevant, and made an interesting depiction of the whole mess.

@@parkerdixon-word6295 Yeah I mean, wouldn't someone have known about them genociding two entire planets and brought it up at some point sooner??

Yes and no, they did seem pretty inclined to play both sides. Till Yoda showed them what was up.

@@DIEGhostfish I'd see that less as them being inclined to play both sides, and more their leader being unwilling to sacrifice his people for the sake of a government he didn't believe in and also having a lot of faith in his good friend Master Yoda. You could even see the whole "if Yoda can defeat an army, we're on his side; if not, we're on yours" thing as "if the Jedi are powerful enough to protect us, then the Republic is still worth fighting for; if not, Separatists for the win." But that's my interpretation, and there's not much evidence to back up any interpretation.

Or Fail-ya, I had always read it as "Feh-lee-ya" until I heard it for the first time in X-Wing Alliance and nearly died laughing.

KZfaq auto captions sometimes show his name as "borscht failure"

Maybe we finally will with the upcoming Thrawn stories.

I sent there a bothsn x wing pilot in force awakens?

@@vitsajfrt6108 Nah, another species apparently. It looks like in canon we don't even know if Bothans are a species or an organisation of spies.

Hey Shannon.

Another one I like is Eddey Be'ray. He’s a bit obscure, but he’s basically smart and sneaky like a Bothan, but he’s also more than that. Around strangers, he’s silent and observing, mentally taking notes to catch someone in a lie. But around friends he’s jovial and snarky, and often one of the more emotionally mature people in the room.

I'm largely focusing on characters that were explicitly used for/worked into commentary on Bothans as a whole, or which influenced the way Bothans were used going forward. Koth is the only one fitting into the former bunch, but not in a way other stories really continue on or run with in an appreciable way. Other examples tend to fit into the milieu set up by the different periods talked about in this video (Grinder was competent, but also had limited time for characterization which included letting Tyria take the fall for his report falsification offer) and the argument here isn't that they're actively malevolent or incompetent per se. And really you don't get to join Wraith Squadron without being a little bit sus. Farfalla was created in 2001, but his species wasn't retconned into being half-Bothan until 2012, at which point there wasn't much to be done with him, and you can't really retroactively factor that into how Bothans characters were handled.

Scourge (aside from naming the Bothans Horsey McHorseface) similarly came out quite late, after the Bothans stuff had mostly been sorted out following the surprise ar'krai and LotF dealing with that.

I just read Wraith squadron. Really liked Grinder, sad that he had to die :(

But they are incredibly good at intelligence work or running intelligence networks. .. I seem to remember in the clone wars , ( novels), general grievous lead an assault on botawi, bail organa said it would be a disaster for the republic, thankfully anakin skywalker. Defeated him

I’d imagine that it was his dissenting opinions that got him on the council as I can see Mothma not wanting to be entirely surrounded by yes men like Palpatine was. Was probably not an incompetent peacetime administrator either when he was in power but as NJO showed he was probably the worst option for a wartime leader. He only really showed the spine he should have shown from the start when he chewed out Nom Anor in the senate and during the fall of coruscant when things couldn’t really get worse and he was finished as a politician alive or dead.

It was a trap in every sense of the word. For all of the Bothan Spynet's merits, the fact that the contribution they choose to boast about the most was orchestrated by Sidious paints them as very susceptible to manipulation and makes them a joke. What's funny is that, had Luke revealed the truth about the true nature of the Bothans' contribution from the start, it would've made them realize how unwarranted their arrogance was for a victory they didn't earn on their own but was instead granted to them through the enemy's machinations, and would've spared them garnering such an obnoxious reputation in galactic society due to that arrogance. So, from a certain point of view, it's Luke's fault that Bothans are as they are.

@CouncilCape897 you have a point there but I can't picture Luke or any of our heroes, including han and leia condemning an entire race who was on the rebel side, even if they did hedge their bets and play both sides. When reading all of the post endor novels, every single time feylea or another Bothan gets arrogant to the extreme and starts talking about how integral they were to rebellion it just makes my blood boil because feylea at one point acknowledges this, tho I don't remember which book, because he gets called out. The thing about them is that we will never really know how much of the info gained from their spying was actually gained from Bothan talent, or just a manipulation from the other side. They actually do make me dislike bothans right up until asyr. The post endor legends books are honestly probably my favorite treasure in my personal library. Idk why I love em so much but I have them on display more than the rest of my library. I'm not going to say I don't like the new canon novels disney has put out, because there are quite a few that I truly love and that I think are great books, but there was nothing like having all my star wars curiosities answered by those legends books about what came after episode 4 5 6. I devoured those books more than I have any other series

@@whitlocktherevanchist5236 Oh, I know it's not in their character. Their experiences have repeatedly reminded them to judge people as individuals rather than condemn them for the actions of their cultures or institutions, and showed them that anyone is capable of redemption and worthy of second chances if they work for it. Han and Leia don't wish the Yuuzhan Vong's extinction despite never being able to fully forgive them for everything the Vong took away from them on a personal level and the irreparable damage they inflicted upon the entire galaxy. And I share your love for the post-Endor era of storytelling. Granted, I might be biased because I'm generally more interested in exploring a saga moving forward rather than revisiting the past (although the prequel trilogy era is a massive exception). But I love seeing our heroes continually discovering a universe of endless possibilities, while learning from the mistakes of the past to unify the galaxy in ways never possible before and guide it towards a hopeful and brighter tomorrow. And I don't mean to undermine the Disney Canon in its entirety, because it does have its hidden gems. But 1 of the biggest reasons I don't enjoy it nearly as much as Legends is because most stories outside of the movies and shows either play it so safe that they're practically watered down and boring copies of Legends material, or feel inconsequential in the grand scheme of things because of the shows taking so much favoritism to the point of contradicting its own continuity and rendering other media pointless. Every story in Legends, however loved or hated by the fandom, had something to contribute to the mythos and felt like important events in galactic history and challenges the heroes had to face to grow as people. And the fact that the sequel trilogy was set in a separate continuity allowed Legends to maintain the element of the unknown, which authors made the most of by taking risks with innovative ideas that kept their stories fresh. But because the sequel trilogy was among the first stories released in the Disney Canon before explaining the context that lead to its events, and played it so safe that the story moved backwards instead of forward, the 30-year gap between trilogies is severely restricted on a creative level because we know where all roads have to lead in order for the canon to make sense. Which kills many of us' investment, especially when a lot of post-Endor stories feel like little more than damage control to explain plot holes and inconsistencies caused by the movies. Personally, the only era that I find innovative in the Disney Canon is The High Republic saga, which I'm enjoying a lot.

@CouncilCape897 I don't think I can disagree with any point you made. As much as I enjoy some of the Disney books, it does feel like most of them are made with kids gloves on. As if they are over edited by Disney editors. Not to mention I felt like legends stories, especially post endor, felt like there was a much larger story being told somewhere that you were just always a few details away from figuring out. I don't get that in the Canon books. Like even tho they didn't release in chronological order, I feel like the legends books from the prequel area, to the xwing novels, and then all the way through new jedi order were all connected into one giant story. Disney just hasn't wrapped me up in it that way. But I am with you on the high republic, which I think they are trying to do all of that with. I think maybe they recognized that so they grabbed a time period they could start over with. Post endor legends novels just had such rich story telling and character depth that you find yourself finishing a book and demanding that you had to move to the next because you had to know where the galaxy goes from here. Disney canon feels like it ends at the end of most stories, if that makes sense. They also don't connect many characters between book series either. Like we don't really see much of like alphabet squadron showing up as characters in other books or something like that for example. Like corran horn is all over the place. Kip Durron. Etc. Ya know? Idk there's just a lot of room to grow hopefully

@CouncilCape897 also, have you noticed Disney post endor doesn't really have a lot on the future of the jedi or the force for that matter when compared to legends. They left such massive gaps of important information that you almost can't connect characters from point A to point E because they aren't the same person and you don't know why. Movie wise the mistake was not having one person make all 3 and they didn't have all 3 of them planned out before they started. My stance on the sequels is that those movies were good.... movies when compared to just movies in general. Sure I enjoyed them. And bad star wars movies is better than no star wars content at all. So while I wasn't happy with the way they were done, I am happy that it somewhat revived the franchise and has given me something to dive into. I'm hoping they are going to stop disneying up the content which seems to be happening somewhat now that they've moved to filone and crew. Idk I'm excited for more but I still personally live mentally in the legends universe as a fan. If that makes sense

Canon doing away with Legends staples, inverting them, or minimizing them is normal thing. They don't like being compared to Legends.

Yes, that's why I mention him getting more of the Kre'fey role following it.

The Ar'krai is why every gangster doesn't have some former vong slaves growing him Ooglith Masquers and Vonduun Crabs, flooding the underworld with perfect disguises and effective saber+blaster resistant armor.

I said he gets "more of the Kre'fey role" following that, ie, he gets used in the reasonable military leader character slot that Kre'fey originally was. I in no way meant to suggest it ended his career.

I mean, in the end Kre'fey absolutely followed orders and did not engage in the revenge Genocide his people demanded.

Yep, there's a dedicated animated break down on the channel with that as well.

He grew up basically the *only* human family he ever saw. Because by NJO everyone was ignoring the EotH as a separate entity from the Ascendancy, so humans and all the other races they'd integrated in were basically written out other than the Fels. So the idea he'd dislike *Bothans* when the Chiss never met them would be very odd

@@DIEGhostfish I’m criticizing it as a story beat just in general. It was a really dumb scene. Not because it didn’t make sense for Fel to feel that way, but because the political implication is silly and extremely ham-fisted, depicts the bothans in a stupid light that is relevant to this video and written so poorly that it was basically self-parody. I like the book a lot, but that scene is stinky.

@@blaineishere3851 Don't really see how. I mean, Borsk backsliding from having at least partly leaned his lesson in the Hand Duology is a bit disappointing, but it was never truly clear he fully learned it to begin with.

Yeah, kriff that fool. May we get confirmation of his books and the rest of its tie-ins as Legends apocrypha someday.

Sure but there's a long way between "here's an alien species with a distinct culture," "here's a bunch of aliens where the distinct culture is that they're all just dicks" and then further down that road to "here's an alien species meant to stand in for a real world culture and their mistreatment but to make this species I've give them the traits of every stereotype about that culture"

​@@CoreysDatapad What culture are the bothans meant to be? Or are they option b of "Just dicks?"

We don't see their home planet, TCW has a habit of turning terrestrial planets into gas giants and forcing EU to make up Minor/Major/Prime/whatever fuckery to unfuck the planets. That honestly seems like trolling. Bad Batch recently made Canderous Ordo's planet into gas giant. Filoni groupies really hate EU here.