How did the Late Roman Empire deal with Barbarians? | Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Burgundians, & Franks

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The Historian's Craft

The Historian's Craft

Жыл бұрын

The Late Roman Empire, infamously perhaps, had to deal with groups of barbarians such as the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Vandals, and Franks crossing over into Roman territory. What these movements looked like varied from large-scale migrations to smaller elite transfers, to cultural diffusion based around the Roma army. Many of those barbarian groups, or at least portions of them, were eventually settled in Roman territory via the Hospitalitas system. The sources for that settlement mention that these groups were granted "thirds", but "thirds" of what? The old idea was that they were granted bits of land, hence why we don't really read too much about barbarians taking over Roman land by force, at least not until the mid-fifth century. However, the work of scholars like Walter Goffart have put forward an interesting, and generally accepted argument, that these "thirds" refer not to land but to tax shares, and that the method of settlement then was initially a tax system to pay the barbarians working in in the late Roman military. Eventually, this system of hospitalitas enabled the successor kingdoms of early medieval europe to form out of the settlements of the late roman army.
SOURCES:
Barbarian Migrations & the Roman West, Halsall
The Inheritance of Rome, Wickham
barbarian Tides, Goffart
barbarians & Romans, Goffart
Empires & Barbarians, Heather
Early Medieval Europe, Collins

Пікірлер: 57
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
So I was looking for a map of the seventh century, so I typed in “Europe in the 600s” and I kid you not the first result google returned was “the stock value of Europe in the 600s was zero” lmao what
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
@@luciuspaullus1948 thank you!
@Boric78
@Boric78 Жыл бұрын
@@luciuspaullus1948 nice maps - thanks
@PhiloLogos777
@PhiloLogos777 Жыл бұрын
Why don’t you ever tell us what you think? Take an opinion and make an argument for it. Just my advice as a consumer of your content
@_robustus_
@_robustus_ Жыл бұрын
It’s one of those times in capitalism where they only strive to be incrementally less shitty than the competition.
@Rokaize
@Rokaize Жыл бұрын
@@PhiloLogos777 That would be interesting to see him basically try to prove an opinion as correct.
@tonlito22
@tonlito22 Жыл бұрын
Conceiving of the barbarians of Late Rome as Roman Armies made up of barbarian units definitely helps make sense if the actions taken both by the Roman leaders and the barbarians themselves.
@kevinbrown6286
@kevinbrown6286 Жыл бұрын
You wendigoon and mr ballen are the goat KZfaqrs so fuckin happy when any of u guys post anything
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@Boric78
@Boric78 Жыл бұрын
Very good to be fair - saw the old one and whilst it made sense this helps understanding what happened - especially the Thirds thing.
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Thanks I’m glad you think it was an improvement
@robbabcock_
@robbabcock_ Жыл бұрын
Terrific video!
@jakegarvin7634
@jakegarvin7634 Жыл бұрын
I suspect that whole Alaric as king thing was probably a Roman smear...I love those guys but they were always accusing people they didn't like of trying to be kings...kinda got played out after the first few times
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Maybe. But then again, it would appear that Alaric and Athaulf claimed the title for specific reasons, as did later barbarians within the Roman Empire
@jakegarvin7634
@jakegarvin7634 Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome Damn, I've never had a creator reply before! Thanks! I am fermiliar with a person needing to be able to justify their rule to those they govern, it just seemed fishy to me that it didn't appear in the contemporary records
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
@@jakegarvin7634 hey no problem! Yeah it is fishy it doesn’t show up in contemporary records. There’s a recent biography of Alaric that I haven’t gotten around to reading yet but I’m curious as to what it would say on the subject
@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl
@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Жыл бұрын
I would say that anglo saxons and franks are by far the groups that fit the stereotypes of barbarians just conquering romans
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
The Anglo-Saxons might, but the Franks are a bit more complex. If you want, I’d recommend Guy Halsall’s “Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West” for a good overview
@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl
@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome thanks
@danielchequer5842
@danielchequer5842 Жыл бұрын
I think the franks were the most "benevolent" barbarians and maybe the only ones to sucessfully merge with the local population
@dragasinbrankovic
@dragasinbrankovic Жыл бұрын
tons of nice info, but also awesome nightingale, I play your long video on low volume and sleep like a lamb
@interdictr3657
@interdictr3657 Жыл бұрын
thanks!
@LucidFL
@LucidFL Жыл бұрын
Do you know how Germanic and Romanized settled barbarians were? Were they Latin speaking, Christianized citizens or more like Germanic people living on Roman soil?
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
It was a mix of both. The Roman army spoke a version of Latin heavily spiced with Germanic loanwords, eventually in some places the language of the army just became Frankish or Gothic. They were most likely all Christian
@LucidFL
@LucidFL Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome Thank you.
@nazeem8680
@nazeem8680 10 ай бұрын
i would argue that the bulk of them were germanic speaking well into the the 5th century, and the christianization was superficial, especially amongst the laymen barbarians. We have reports and archaeological evidence of pagan practices and symbolism amongst the Suebi, Goths and vandals and officially they were Arian, which set them apart from the local chalcedonian Romans. After the western roman empire was split into barbarian kingdoms, the real romanization progress would kick off as they converted to catholicism, and many of the Germanic laws that distinguished barbarians from the romans were repealed. By the early 6th century, most vandals in africa would be bilingual or only speaking vulgar latin (despite still caliing themselves "Vandals" and having vandalic names. By the time of the muslim invasion of Spain, most visigoths were speaking ibero-romance, but their identity as goths survived, but was more like a proof of aristocratic lineage, rather than an ethnic identity per se.
@daycentchunage5341
@daycentchunage5341 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video - I always enjoy indepth analysis of barbarian integration vs conflict. I'm curious, btw, what your knowledge of languages of antiquity is - did you study Latin and Greek as part of your academic training? I heard once a long time back, when I was interested in grad school for Byzantine Studies, that you shouldn't even consider applying unless you have at least one, and preferably two languages under your belt (e.g. classical Latin and koine Greek, or Middle Persian). What's your take on this and personal experience?
@gunarsmiezis9321
@gunarsmiezis9321 Жыл бұрын
"did you study Latin and Greek as part of your academic training?" His lack of pronounciation skill seems to suggest not. Ive been studdying latin for 2 months at university now (Why the Hell does the course on BALTIC filology include latin when we never had anything to do with the Roman Empire?!?) and we where right away taught how to pronounce words in the first 2 weeks and have been doing conjugations since. "I heard once a long time back, when I was interested in grad school for Byzantine Studies, that you shouldn't even consider applying unless you have at least one, and preferably two languages under your belt (e.g. classical Latin and koine Greek, or Middle Persian). What's your take on this and personal experience?" Id agree with this if you wish to study the original sources. How ever you should be tought these languages during your education before you get to reaserch stuff so apply without them should be fine.
@fiddleriddlediddlediddle
@fiddleriddlediddlediddle Жыл бұрын
Several segments of the map disappear, namely Sicily, Scandinavia and Scotland. Why?
@krushnaji4940
@krushnaji4940 Жыл бұрын
I am Maratha when my ancestors defeated Mughals they gain rights to tax provinces with promises to defend other Mughal provinces we call those taxes ( chauthi)it literally means quarter. So chauthi and one-third given to the Goths sounds similar .
@tengrispirit353
@tengrispirit353 Жыл бұрын
Hello guys great video I’m from Yugoslavia and I have Hunic and Gothic ancestry mixed with Illyrian.
@geraldbrefka1145
@geraldbrefka1145 5 ай бұрын
They always forget about my ancient tribe the Sarmatians and Amazon warrior women
@FutureBoyWonder
@FutureBoyWonder Жыл бұрын
I listen to all you content while working i love your work on rome. Lately i became particularly enamored with the series involving the "cannibal french village" and your presentation of the French world at the time, any plans of continuation?
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Yeah I plan on continuing it soon actually. I had to start packing to move and I packed up that book first. I’d really recommend it! It’s only about 130 pages or something along those lines
@FutureBoyWonder
@FutureBoyWonder Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome next payday I'll order it
@ManiusCuriusDenatus
@ManiusCuriusDenatus Жыл бұрын
Towards the end..not very well. Especially after Aetius.
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Especially not after Aetius, no. Although really I think a strong case could be made for many problems stemming from Theodosius I’s choice of heirs. His two sons were still children. He probably should’ve know better but of course, that’s easy for us to say
@ManiusCuriusDenatus
@ManiusCuriusDenatus Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome Agreed. Honorius was a train wreck and the fact he survived his reign was a miracle. Thodosius' probably had no choice though. Had he chose someone outside the imperial family some courtiers would rally around the snubbed princes and voila: cvil war. Just conjecture, but that is what I see happening. Thoughts?
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
@@ManiusCuriusDenatus probably, yeah. I’ve mentioned in other videos that one of the main things historians have noticed about the late empire is that, despite issues, the whole thing was fairly stable provided, ya know, kids weren’t in charge. A ten year old isn’t going to react to problems the same was a thirty year old will
@gunarsmiezis9321
@gunarsmiezis9321 Жыл бұрын
When the latins write ae the sound they are encoding is ai. I know weird propablly in early latin it was actually ae, but in classical latin it is deffinetly ai. Eddit: and yes foederati is pronounced foiderati, oe -> oi.
@m.streicher8286
@m.streicher8286 Жыл бұрын
Not well, I assume
@SkyFly19853
@SkyFly19853 Жыл бұрын
With the help of Huns?... like giving them some incentives... 🤔😏
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
MERCENARIES!
@SkyFly19853
@SkyFly19853 Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome Yeah! No money No honey! No money No Hun! 😏
@8bitorgy
@8bitorgy Жыл бұрын
No way the Romans would give them money... They barely had enough to pay their own soldiers
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
The Visigoths *were* the soldiers
@8bitorgy
@8bitorgy Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome I'd like to add that Illyricum, Germany, British isles proved to be very challenging to the classic Roman army because the geography wasn't suitable their large formation style. And I think this was done out of desperation and necessity. "Non est osta pax, sed pactio servitutis" All I'm saying is that land was far easier to give out than money. Alaric infamously DEMANDED 4000 lbs of gold. It really sounds like he didn't really want the land and just wanted to get paid.
@docholiday7975
@docholiday7975 Жыл бұрын
@@8bitorgy The thing to consider with Alaric, is that as effectively a rogue general leading Romanised troops, they expected to be paid. Very few soldiers are willing to serve long term without pay, even warbands from over the Rhine Danube centred on a warlord let alone soldiers who'd been in Roman service for some 20 years, especially when there are competing powers such as the usurper Constantine III in Gaul who could. Alaric gaining a formal post would enable a steady flow of tax goods and money that would alleviate the need to demand money in bulk in order to provide back and future pay.
@8bitorgy
@8bitorgy Жыл бұрын
@@docholiday7975 this is why I believe the "thirds" refers to land, not money. Otherwise they wouldn't complain about being paid in the first place.
@Boric78
@Boric78 Жыл бұрын
1st
@TheFallofRome
@TheFallofRome Жыл бұрын
Second! :)
@Boric78
@Boric78 Жыл бұрын
@@TheFallofRome Too slow - spellchecking your next work ? Its all about speed and focus when it comes to winning youtube comments.
@kennethkloby2726
@kennethkloby2726 Жыл бұрын
You need to better organize your videos into playlists, you have interesting content but it's strewn all over the place as to be useless.
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