3:02 Hando, "My crew has doubled since the last time we met, Count!" Dooku, "Good. Twice the number, double the disadvantage."

The irony of Niman is that despite its target demographic being scholars, its true potential can only be brought out by a dedicated warrior.

Dooku was an outlier when it came to mastering form 2. Dooku also incorporated other techniques from other forms to compensate for form 2 weaknesses. Such as blaster deflection. Also when he had to handle multiple opponents it kind of reminds me how 'Shien' keeps them divided/separated while fighting them. Dooku was a pure form 2 master though. He didn't believe in completely combining multiple forms entirely. But he was practical and knew he had to borrow some techniques from other forms to be well rounded. Dooku was knowledgeable about several forms. He taught General Grievious multiple forms.

"If one is to understand 'the great mystery' one must study all it’s aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force."

Niman is a very misunderstood form. In theory, it didn't really need any strengths because it was all about outsmarting the opponent. In a way, it was like Juyo, except it didn't rely on scaring, or dominating the opponent.

I’m kinda surprised no one from Luke’s New Jedi Order studied or mastered the Vaapad variant of Form VII. Maybe records of the style were lost when the old Order fell.

Form III will always be my fav, I love being the tank and it helps balance me out since I'm a hothead, like Anakin

dooku is considered one of the best duelist of all timrs thanks to his mastery of makashi

I thought form 2 and form 5 'Shien' would compliment each other. 'Shien' would cover blaster bolt deflecting/aiming and multiple opponents. It uses 360 degrees while attacking. 'Shien' is inspired by form 3, so it's defensive . 'Shien' incorporates many of Form 3 strengths, including the use of solid blocks, parries, stronger counterattacks, ripostes. Form 2 would handle the one on one lightsaber fights and duels.

Ironic that the Jedi abandon Niman. When Banite Sith are required to master it. When a Sith masters Niman. He has a comprehensive understanding of the abilities of a Jedi. The only real threats then are the specialist.

In the end, it's not the technique, it's the practitioner that matters if a technique works or not.

I understand and respect how some lightsaber forms started seeing less use while Jedi were clamoring to put the other forms into action. It's kinda like how some of the classic martial arts are rarely seen now while the others are wildly popular. Case in point; Kuk Sool Won & Moo Duk Kwan aren't seen as much as Tae Kwon Do & Tang Soo Do outside of Korea.

My biggest hope from any new Star Wars movie(s) is that they spend more time with lightsabers. Their construction, training with them, and the different forms with strengths and weaknesses. I’d love that so much.

I mean Soresu just makes sense in the clone wars. Defend your clones and let them use blasters on opponents. Soresu is also meant to look for opening so it fits perfectly with the Jedi acting as more battle tacticians. Defend and look for weakness in your enemies then command your clones to exploit the weakness. Should have been any Jedi's go to.

"The Master of Defence is never in the place that is attacked. This can be achieved by moving the attack or moving yourself" ... in other words Soresu and Ataru

Yeah I would love to hear more on a different lightsaber forms

form 5 was also a major thing during the clone wars. it provided the edge of aggression yet provided defense. it provided good deflection and was good in lightsaber to lightsaber duels. Anakin used it so did several other jedi. form 1 was also a good choice as jedi we forced into using it but kit fisto brought it higher especially with underwater combat.

I thought Ahsoka was using 'Shien' to deflect the blaster bolts. She started out using "Shien' in the series and later incorporated form 4. 'Shien' used the reverse grip on the lightsaber. 'Shien' was inspired by form 3 and focused on blaster deflecting/aiming and more attack strikes then form 3. 'Shien' alone would have been useful during the Clone Wars. Blaster deflecting/aiming and good against multiple opponents. It uses 360 degrees while fighting opponents. More aggressive then form 3. What about form 5? Very effective in combat. It served Anakin Skywalker well. Both in duels and blaster fire. Also multiple opponents.

I would love to see the hand to hand style of the mandalorians covered as they are some of the most prolific jedi killers in the galaxy with very few being even force sensitive and even fewer with a command of the force

Form 3 and 5 would be my go-to styles for this reason. But I also do like form 2

I want to point out that while what you said about Niman being a weak form of lightsaber combat during the clone wars was true in my mind, that is less to do with the form itself being unusable during war times. but more to that non of the practitioner that deployed it as their primary form was dedicated warriors since we see with the examples of Exar Kun and Darth maul that form six in the hand of a combat specialist is more than enough.

I would have thought Shien would resurge as well.

Exar Kun, one of the greatest duelists ever, used Niman. But the trick was that he used it as a starting point and would then start mixing in moves from other styles so as to confound his opponents.

Vaapad is very easy. Mace Windu in Canon and in Legends die at the end of the Clone Wars, so Vaapad extinct.

Details in Canon might be a lite different, now, but I figured the loss of all the Jedi also contributed to this; by the end of the Clone Wars, there were basically no Jedi left, and even many Vader went after were just surviving Younglings, who probably didn't have a form under their belt. We know Yoda wasn't strictly correct when he told Luke he'd be the last of the Jedi, but it sort of surprised me that, by his mentoring era, there was really anything of the Forms, as a tradition, left. Even Luke is a weird case. He didn't train with Kenobi long enough to pick up Soresu, and Yoda didn't really teach him lightsabers, such as Ataru, so there should have been next to nothing left for Luke to pass on, and then his own students were all destroyed, anyway. I mentioned "in canon" because Legends does sort of cover this. Luke had to find aged holocrons, to help him teach his new students, and even the knowledge of making holocrons had been lost for some time; they imply the Clone Wars Jedi didn't have this skill, which Tionne rediscovered, so Forms knowledge in them was old, and the Emperor had been very successful in rounding such things up, making them hard to find. Still, st least Legends Luke's students survived. Canon Luke seemed to lose all of them to Kylo Ren's emo betrayal, meaning thexForms mostly stayed dead.

The way Obi Wan's lightsaber looks like in the thumbnail almost looks like Zero's Z Saber

Form 6 is would be still be my focus in this era. I think it is the most flexible of the forms. I think jedi consulars just learn the basics of it or just become proficient at it. But we know if you master the form you can almost be unbeatable.

From much of the reading I’ve done, I found that Niman was not a dying form whatsoever. It was actually the most common form among the Jedi, and was highly encouraged because it could defeat opponents without excessive use of force. The problem was that many of the Jedi had grown lazy, and adopted the form because it was not as physically demanding as forms such as Djem So and Ataru. It’s a form that you get out of it what you put into it, and the vast majority of Jedi put nothing into it. True masters of the form such as Exar Kun were practically unstoppable. The reason the Jedi were getting slaughtered by the likes of General Grievous was because they were lazy when it came to training with the lightsaber.

Juyo was my favorite lightsaber form in the SW games although I don't quite consider myself a Sith.

I use a form that draws from several forms, but mostly draws on Soresu because of its' incredibly dense defense.

Form 2 could never go extinct imho, it is one that will always have a practical use in dueling powerful opponents, especially when 2 higher powered force users come into direct conflict and are quite skilled in the art of combat, even though we didnt see this between Yoda and Sidious, there were numerous instances in TCW where it was most apt to use. Form 6 being a jack of all trades, is reasonably defunct for reasons explained very adequately by TSW, Exar kun's use of it was the exception though, never the rule.

I feel like form 6 would be more popular if used to the full extent it should have. IE: use the aspects of one form exclusively then switch to gain advantage of surprise over an opponent

It is my understanding that most Jedi Initiates are mentored in nearly all the classical forms with a predominant emphasis on Form I Shii - Cho; any other forms would usually be adopted once the Jedi Initiate graduated to Padawanhood and was apprenticed to a Jedi Knight or Master. Also given the nature of the Clone Wars conflict I could see the widespread adoption of Forms III Soresu, IV Ataru, and V Shien/Djem So. Following the execution of Order 66, and the commencement of the Jedi Purge; most of the remaining Jedi would have been practitioners of those forms which would technically leave many of them at an even greater disadvantage against Vader and the Imperial Inquisitorius (Though based on their documented duels in the Canon, it appears the lot of them utilize a hybridized combination of Forms I Shii - Cho, IV Ataru, and V Shien/Djem So, with a particular emphasis on the offensive principle over defense; the only exception to this rule was the Grand Inquisitor who did incorporate elements of Form II Makashi into his lightsaber sequences)

I would learn the basics of each form and I would master four lightsaber forms fully and those who both variants of form five, form 6, form three, and form 4

What really suprises me is that Jedi didn't start incorporating more secondary weapons/tools during the Clone Wars. If they carried around wrist mounted energy shields like the Mandalorian Royal Guard of the era-- though preferably a bit bigger than the ones they used-- for defence and used Form I's wide slashing movements for offense they'd be a steller frontal attack unit.

Form7 vaapad went extinct. Personally, i would love to master form 2 makashi and 5 shien/djem so, with 3 soresu as a third option.

Nothing on djem so/shien, I'm shocked, as a non acrobatic, I would certainly choose both form five variants.

I imagine Shien also rose in popularity among Jedi of the Clone Wars for similar reasons to Soresu. There's a reason Anakin trained Ahsoka in the form after all.

I would still pick form 6, however, I would work on its weakness which was form 2. While its strengths you could say was form 3 and 4.

This was an excellent video, and I really enjoyed learning more about the lightsaber forms.

If I had to choose between all forms I would go for a similar approach like plo kloon. Shien as my main form, but instead of Ataru as an offense, I would study Juyo. Overwhelm you opponents with relentless aggression while being a master of a defensive yet more offensive form than souresu. Sounds quite good to me…

I like Form 2 and 3 because of the energy efficiency. I like Form 5 when things are time critical, and Form 4 for when traversal is needed. Relying on patience and skill, though, seem to be the ideal Jedi way, and generally, not wearing oneself out with fancy moves seems practical. Though I do see the appeal of Form 1, and just giving yourself over to the Force. But then, why not try and get so good at Forms 2 and 3 you can do it in your sleep. Then you can do it in a Force trance, too, right?

I feel like if Dooku was at least a decade younger, he could have possibly met Anakin more effectively one-on-one. It's not that the Count couldn't duel anymore;As shown of him defeating both Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode II, and Obi-Wan again in episode III, while having effectively held off both Kenobi and Skywalker momentarily before knocking the Soresu master out cold, and then epically going on the defensive before ultimately losing the duel, his hands, his head, and his life to the Chosen One. Karma's a pain, I tell you. Plus, Anakin had just gotten so much stronger in the three years between he and the Count's prior duel, and Dooku wasn't exactly a young man anymore. Still a bad-ass duelist to the very end. RIP.

That duel with Johun happened in rule of two, not during path of destruction

It would've been cool if Luke became a practitioner of form 2 combat. He already had great connection with the force but if he invested time in a form to best other light saber wielders, he could've been so much stronger and badass

we know for one ashoka reverse grip i was told from other channels that it was disrespect form too use but i like starkiller and ashoka fighting form rare special form no one else used as much before during or after the clone war beside starkiller who used duel reverse grip like ashoka

As long as holocrons exist lightsaber forms can't truly go extinct.

Did Sidious use Form 4 against Windu? And what did he use against Yoda?

1:20 3:46 6:08 8:25

before watching the video i wanna say Form 2 Makashi is definitely one of them

Form 2 + Form 3 + Situational Awareness and General Mobility = Unstoppable.

So, I could see form 2 being well complimented by form 1 which focuses on fighting multiple opponents in large groups. Additionally, one might mix form 2 with form 3 or form 4 which are effective against blaster fire and boast incredible speed respectively.

Dooku was proficient in all forms. It's not fair to compare him to the average Makashi master.

I like to Headcanon that form 6 is the base form of my Sith inquisitor in swtor, since he ends up fighting so many different types of foe, in countless different environments, it's just better to be adaptable, and typically I find myself needing to go defensive and aggressive in roughly equal measure, so it's good to be adept at both. I double down on double bladed sabers being superior, I disagree with Darth Bane's opinion of them. I did a little martial arts irl and Bostaffs can be pretty damn hard to fight, even for a skilled swordsman. Plus, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from designing a polesaber that can split into two individual lightsabers, for maximum adaptability, so even then you can do some jar'kai or just use one blade for something more conventional anyway. Stay mobile, stay adaptable, look intimidating and most importantly, Have fun. I guess you could say elements of Juyo are in my style too, the edge lord attire is necessary I assure you.

absolute banger video

Not casting a puff of smoke is a good thing thinks I 😂

I like Makashi, Soresu, and Djem So as my top 3 lightsaber forms, with Niman being 4th and Shi-Cho 5th. I guess Juyo and Ataru are my least favorite. But I would have studied all of them. If you ask me, the Diplomats form should be Soresu as it is so defensive and would be better for a Jedi Consular from what I've seen in one of my games. A hybrid of Niman bolstered with more moves of Soresu would likely give them strong defense and they can use their force powers to create openings. A true Niman master is a master of four of the seven lightsaber forms at least (as Makashi is excluded in it).

Hey, have you seen the newest episode of the Bad Batch yet? I feel like you should talk about it and how it shows a little more on why the storm troopers replaced the Clones.

People sleep on Niman, Exar Kun is the greatest duelist ever and he was a Niman practitioner. In my opinion, the thing is the user must be very cunning and tactical or the form is useless. It really takes mastery of every technique and building something that is prepared for any and every challenge. I would say Palpatine could be considered Niman based off of how he utilized all the 7 forms as they were needed. He switched between them when confronted by 4 highly respected Jedi masters. And they were everything but ready for it, except Mace Windu of course.

Yes do more!

Funny that three of the Deadliest Sith Lords, all former Jedi, were Form VI Niman Masters...I speak of Exar Kun, Darth Krayt and Darth Revan....two of them, Krayt and Revan, used this Form in open War, and were nearly undefeatable (Krayt when he was still known as A´Sharad Hett in the Clone Wars and Revan during the Mandalorian Wars...both against many Blaster wielding Enemies^^)

Where is the form 1 ?

So, Form II, that was hyper-specialized for an entirely different battlefield, suffered. So did Form VI, which has little in the way of specialization at all and doesn't excel in any way until you're a complete master of it. This makes a lot of sense, though I wonder why Form VII is not on this list. It's high-energy and draining, while not having particularly relevant specialties to the Clone Wars battlefield. Form I would also seem too generalist, but is also too fundamental to actually lose. Form III, as discussed, is perfect for this kind of battlefield. Form IV has mobility advantages, which is always welcome. Form V has two variants, one of which has similar advantages to Form III, the other would just cut a swathe right through the battlefield.

I just love your videos so much they are so cool

My jiujitsu is a combination of primarily Soresu, mixed with Ataru.

My two favorite styles

RICK LONG CANBERR NERDS INC ! LOVES YOU !

Form 5 was also used in the Clone Wars

Damn lol I was so close I got 3 out of the 4 I missed the Ataru style and thought you’d say Shii-cho

Niman is amazing if you can use it with a bit of knowledge of how to fight smartly

Form 6 if mastered would make you almost invulnerable like exar kun. My chosen forms of i was a jedi would be form 5 and 6 with defensive elements of form 3.

I think it's rather telling that both these forms seemed to be very powerful in Old Republic days, but after 1,000 years of peace fell off. Dueling was super important when there was dozens of Sith and considering even Exar Kun used Niman clearly it CAN work in pretty brutal conditions in open war. But by the time of the Clone Wars their wasn't many people to duel and the strength of Niman seems to have just been lost.

I have to say that on the PSN Jedi Academy game I use all the forms. Makashi is good on one on one vs. Sith acolytes. But in the beginning I had to use form 3 because I didn't understand the acrobatics, but I used the force push and pull a lot. Later in the game I used form 4 when faced versus many acolytes, but it was easier with dual wielded sabers. Once I reached Taspir 3 I was using Vaapad or should I say vaders trick saber form. The timing is key and it's difficult to pull off, but doable.

Why Darth Sidious HATED Vader's Stinky Robo Farts.

Hmm...with this in mind, I'd probably master Makashi, Soresu and Shien...maybe a lil Niman too, just for form-transition sequences and force intergration

I thought ahsoka used shien as her form as well as ataru, djemso and niman more than soresu. Notice the reversed grip.

Niman is a jack of all traits but master of none

I read the title as why forms that use 2 lightsabers went extinct.

...NNNNNNOOOOOOO

it is unwise to think any of them should be obsolete, they all have their own useful attributes

Babe, wake up. Stupendous Wave just a dropped a 10 minute video that could have been condensed to around 10 sentences.

6:41 Is that a rakata Jedi?

Niman was misunderstood. It took a minimum of 10 years to properly master. The example with Jedi sent after Darth Bane is a poor example. He was out of practice (which the book even says) and had not had time to actually master the form. He wasn't included in the strike team due to his abilities, but rather for arguably political reasons. First, his former master was the one who led a group of jedi who volunteered to be trapped by the Sith Mind Bomb. He was also the one who brought the news of the continued existence of the Sith to the Jedi Council. It's also worth noting that the entire Jedi strike team was killed quickly after the Jedi Battle Meditation was interrupted.

Very cool topic for an interesting and informative video in especially reviewing forms 2 and 6. Form 6 should just be retired.

The Forms that flourished were Shii Cho Soresu Ataru Shein/Djem So Juyo/Vaapad

Can we see one dedicated to all forms and witch are stronger and weaker with one another

I'm not sure I agree a lot with the form 6 analysis. Many form 6 users were usually much better at survival in war than other style users. However Form 6 is highly dependent on the originality of the user. Since Jedi in this era of Star Wars were not prepared for neither Sith or blasters on the early stages, I see Niman users neglecting the aspects of Makashi and Soresu within their saber work. So it's not a fault of the style itself.

What about Djem-So?

Without even watching the video yet ill say its probably the forms that excel at saber vs saber combat considering the jedi assumed the sith to be extinct.

Why did forms go extinct? Hmm...something to do with Jedi dying might play a part

I still prefer Form II the best. It is elegant, yet forceful. The only other Form I like is Soresu. It is like the othe side of the coin to Markashi. Fluid, yet unmoved.

Anything on lord Vader father king lord plagues Luke skywalker grandfather lives he behind everything not palpatine

Technically neither went “extinct”, at least not among everyone. No Jedi used these forms but Dooku uses form II and Savage Opress used form VI (you can tell by seeing it).

ok thats not true about form 2 Dooku wasnt the only master as a matter of fact there was one other master that mastered it and she was a council member and thats Jedi master Shaak Ti and as far as Niman that too isnt true about it cause a true master of it could dominate and outsmart anyone case in point Exar Kun

And to think form 7 would not be used because it leads to the Dark Side..

Even if it was a dying form I would still pick niman

Dooku was a master of makashi but let's not be fooled and think that he wasn't proficiently knowledgeable in all seven forms which he was, like in episode 2 he clearly was mocking anakin and copying his style and aggressive movements...

Day 11 of asking for a part 3 of what if anakin was trained by qui gon

You missed from 5

Emporer Palpatine mastered every variant of lightsaber combat. So, it was never extinct.