Gratham*****

@@pisto30 Hahaha, damn it. Now I look like an idiot

Bi or Pan, he made a direct reference earlier in the Season to kissing other boys at University

@@natasjarose1321 no, he said boys at boarding school tried to kiss him and he didn't make a fuss about it. Hes straight.

Char A As we all should be to our friends

Rachel Bringle not sure the aristocracy would have made this type statement in the 1920s

He's more than trying. Keep in mind it was the '20s, more people were like Alfred than Lord Grantham, and tbh his view is still more accepting than some present today.

@@passiveagressive4983 the aristocracy would have in fact been the most accepting, because of how educated they were in comparison.

A L W 🙄

@@passiveagressive4983 There were liberals in the 20s who were not supportive of criminalising homosexuality. It just wasn't discussed much in public etc.

Robert’s best line in the entire series.

DowntonPotterhead What is an arc? I know it's a curve but I am curious about the context.

@@mscott3918 It refers to how a person's character /story developed over the series.

Apart from the end. They made let have a happy end even if it was rushed or barely realistic and his was "Yay you get to work under the same circumstances that made you commit suicide again"

@@Alina28357 He attempted suicide because he had to leave the home he'd been in since he was a young boy because he was gay, which was something he'd never be able to change.

cant wait for his storyline in new Sept UK movie.... does he get his guy... ? - the BBC drama Man in the Orange Shirt is similar and excellent, it is on Prime and UT (in small parts)

I hated him at first, then there was a scene where he got caught crying in the dark. I forgot the reason, but my heart broke for him. From then on, I saw that his demeanor was mostly a facade. Plus, he was one of the truly loyal servants of the family.

You nailed it exactly. He went through life expecting to get kicked for his troubles and decided he’d be the first to do it. I think his altruism won out in the end though because he was the most pure with the kids, and he did right by saving Edith too, not to mention Jimmy.

Tiffany C he really loved the kids. That’s how you know he’s actually a good guy deep down after all.

@@bela516 YES! He was so good with all the kiddos.

What episode is this

I think that is why Thomas adored Sybil so much. He treated him with the kindness of a friend. Of course she was “above” him but she never acted like it. She was always kind to him when not many people were. She saw him. That’s why he clearly has a soft spot for Sybbie. He knows how much that little girl SHOULD have known her wonderful mother so he makes sure to pass on her kindness to her little girl.

YES! One of my favourite lines 🤣

so U R so wise u thought we all wanted to read it/see it again? Sh8t eater!~!~!~!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Lala lalala or closeted gay men in denial..... wait till their wife catches them... it always happens !

Yeah - like a gay man is the best judge of what straight men find sexy in women!

@@glamdolly30 You would be surprised.

And the two police inspectors seemed well aware that they were being fobbed off by a united household front.

@@zxbn4566 probably glad they didn’t have to do paperwork and expose themselves to litigation by folks that can afford attorneys to wipe them out, these folks own most of the village btw

Yes. They are disarmed by politeness, powerful property owners and nowadays by cameras

"Would you care to have some tea?" is British upper-class slang for "And that's it ; end of conversation!"

Breeding.

calihartley2010 sin in this case is broader than homosexual intercourses. He might refer to all the bad things he has ever done which is the humility to see your own sins. It could refer to him almost having an affair with the maid.

3:02

@@KoiYakultGreenTea Boer War, Aristocrat British officer. He'd done some sht...

@@nulnoh219 they didn’t view that as a sin what was done in war. It was an honour and privilege to fight for your country

With regards to the incident with Jane while Cora had influenza, truer words were never spoken.

When he protected little Sibbie from her nurse, I knew he wasn't the cold hearted person he tried to be.

One of the few moments I really liked him.

​@@katewelch79 i agree he is wonderful with the children and loves them equaly

I burst out laughing at that scene. XD

The look on Carson's face speaks volumes.

Raspberry Dove-Ali I honestly love him, his facial expressions are everything!

@@pan-opticon That raised, thick, dark, black eyebrow speaks volumes. Even the King and Queen shutter when it happens. 😁

Wot 😂😂😂

@Ber P. You really have it in for Thomas, his character and his sexuality, don't you? Yes, I have seen good acting, and the scene in Thomas' chambers held enough authenticity given the time that this is represented. Criminals are capable of reform, and given that era of excess and extravagance his character fits the period succinctly. I would suggest a little more understanding over the judgement of a character as solely good or bad, criminal or law-abiding are not so black and white in the World. The 1920's in the UK was an Era of Excess, and if you were eager to attain the respectability of a aspirational Servant at that time it was a dog-eat-dog time. I've met many people with criminal backgrounds that have redeeming qualities and I believe that someone can sort themselves out through a time of outrageous Class and Wealth Disparity. And perhaps you should take such struggles with consideration and a positive aspiration as one does in today's Society.

Ber P. Thomas ‘evil’ behaviors have more to do with his upbringing. He had an abusive type for a father, and he acts like a child who has been abused. He builds a wall up to keep people from hurting him and he strikes first so they don’t have a chance to do so. He softens up, esp. after Sybil was nice to him and with her child, with all the kids. He loves them, and protected them from the bad nanny.

Ber P. They talked about his poor relationship with his father and alluded to the abuse. Pay attention.

what did he mean by "you know why" ??

v because in an earlier episode Thomas tries to kiss jimmy so he definitely has feelings for him. So I guess he still has feelings at this point and doesn’t want to see him get hurt

Mika Steinitz Yes! I can’t wait to see how Thomas is handling Downton next month and he better happy!

Rhiannon Rowe I was a bit dissapointed that we didn’t really get to see him in full butler mode, but his charecter arc was good and he’s still the butler by the end!!!

Totally. At the beginning my favourite was Matthew (still is), but Thomas really has a place in my heart too now! Best character development, by far!

im gonna be honest i loved him from the 1st episode. After the whole "duke" debacle, i could tell he would be a very 3 dimensional character. I found myself rooting for his well being all throughout the show.

I dont think this is a shocking confession. Your not supposed to like him in season one (as a person, as a character is a whole different story, people love antagonists and bad guys).

Michael T actually he handle it poorly in the beginning it was until Thomas saved him that he saw he only wanted his best interest ... It's funny how straight men feel treatened my gay men but gay men feel the opposite when a woman likes them... Why is that ?

yes not with physical violence but with trying to get him fired from his job and reporting him to the police where he would have been arrested, never been able to get a job again and possibly tortured with 'cures' while he was in prison -_-

Michael T that wasn't a proposition it was an assault

@@FloridaManVal overstepping through being lied to... "its very difficult to know, 'cos no-one speaks of it, you have to try and read the signals"..... a little before Grindr !! it was a kiss on the cheek it was invading personal space it was the very lowest level of an 'assault' ...when winding the clock and that closeness (I think they touched hands) Barrow should have read the closed signals, but when you on heat, you on heat !

@@FloridaManVal While I agree that it was assault, that doesn't change the point @Michael T was making about how to handle these situations in general(for cases where it is just a proposition and nothing more). Also, @We're-all- Human makes some good points as well.

I hated Carson. He was a snob and a homophopbe.

@Lala lalala I agree with you👍certainly there are at least two sides.. its no ones buisness who I date. Its private. to the gibberjabber who lays their personal life out. any of these are not wrong. people have a right to privacy of their own making.

@Lala lalala regarding informing about sexuality. There are situations where thats warranted. again personal choice.

RJC did so well as Thomas, and he also did several things throughout the series to fight for his character

@Ber P. not necessarily. We know such examples existed at the time, Oscar Wilde comes to mind of course. To assume that sticking to one's truth was only prevalent among the posh and well-known might be a classist assumption.

His truth and integrity? He was a complete shit, make no mistake. Then, he tries and fails to kill himself, and that event somehow changes him from scheming dictator to best pal and advice giver? Jfc, give me a break.

@@annabodhi38 I agree - Downton writer Julian Fellowes took unbelievable liberties with the credibility of Thomas. He got away with turning him from an out and out villain to a saint, purely by making the character gay. Because in the PC world of TV drama, a gay character can't possibly be evil. PC nonsense gone mad!

annabodhi38 I don’t know, I think it is possible for people to change ( not talking about becoming straight) but his interaction with people, the way he was behaving, with all the plotting and such, Wasn’t working, there were characters on the show that wanted to be his friend but he wouldn’t allow it. Maybe it took him being at his lowest to make him see the error of his ways.

Thomas is evil do to Mrs. O'Brien. When she disappeared he was lost without her. He tried to keep up his evilness but couldn't because he realized that he's not that type of person. He's a lost soul that became a hero to the family with the fire and also he loved the children. He rated out the nanny to Mrs. Crawley.

I've really appreciated your insights on these Downton videos, do you have a blog or anything where you share more of your thoughts?

@@lollylula6399 Thank you for the compliment. 😊🙂 No. I don't. But you've Encouraged me to Seriously Consider the idea. #MyInnerLadyEdith

Well its possible it could have been realistic, even when homosexuality was deemed wrong there were some who didn't appose it.

I think a lot had to do with his time in the army durin7 the Boer War

Considering Great Britain's cruel law punishing "sodomist" during that period, Lord Grantham attitude was quite progressive.

@@seentheah3562 True but a man like Lord Grantham could not have it known that a servant, specially a long serving servant was gay. It would start rumors that could damage his own reputation and that of his house. Protecting Thomas would not be the main issue as it would be to protect his own reputation.

Yeah I have to believe there were goodhearted people even in high places, long before their time came.

You can't win something that doesn't exist

😶😁

Agreed!! Love Thomas!

You probably like abusive and catty men

Yup true that😊

K G-T other than Mr. Bates, who can be equally as dark.

*downton

Yes and you know his bad traits have developed out of genuine pain.

Well, Thomas did kiss Jimmy without his consent. That could have landed Thomas in jail. Except Jimmy chose not to press charges and at least said they could be friends. And Thomas doesn't have any friends. So he has every right to be relieved and grateful.

@Kelaiah01 Yes, but it was over a year ago. A year during which Jimmy treated Thomas like shit while Thomas was trying to be friendly. Of course what Thomas did was wrong and he did apologize but Jimmy never did for his actions.

@@lonelyratgirl3688 I often forget this show runs on a wonky timeline. XD Perhaps the writer forgot about this aspect?

@Kelaiah01 Yeah, it's not always easy to keep track of time in this show 😅 And really I never meant to say Thomas shouldn't feel relief and gratitude, it's just the magnitude of those feelings in Thomas' face and tone that bothers me for the reasons I explained above.

I think he just wanted a friend, and that's why he was grateful. Though I have always thought that Thomas did much more for Jimmy than Jimmy did for him.

Carson is probably the most authentic and true-to-life character in the entire drama - he's certainly miles more believable than Satan-to-saint Thomas!

@@tideoftime Wow! That's one helluva long and involved essay in response to my one liner about a fictitious character in a TV drama! It's obvious you love this show. I love Downton too, and as a professional writer I'm fascinated by its construction. I don't feel Thomas' narrative arc was terribly convincing, but I recognise why the writer did it. Moreover, 'Downton Abbey' is fiction, and as such there must be some poetic licence and suspension of disbelief by viewers. Rob James Collier gave a fantastic performance, and it's a measure of his talent that viewers accepted Thomas' transformation from panto villain to superhero. The moments of political correctness, when historic prejudices and values were presented through the writer's modern, knowing eyes, were many - and I'm not the first to pick up on this. Ultimately writer Julian Fellowes didn't dare make Thomas an out-and-out villain because he is a gay character. Thomas had to have his journey to sainthood because in these PC times, presenting a gay character as unrelentingly evil (as Thomas totally was in early episodes) breaks modern day rules. I long for the day when writers are free to create all kinds of diverse characters, gay, straight, black, white, with all kinds of character traits, good and bad. Because that would reflect real life! I felt the 'softening' of Thomas was pretty patronising to gay people, and in my experience didn't reflect real life. Because an out and out bastard like Thomas - as he was presented at the start - doesn't change and go from ruthless and self serving, to warm and fuzzy. If Julian Fellowes had stayed true to Thomas' character, then no one watching would have cared a fig when he attempted suicide! And that would never do.

@@glamdolly30 See, though, that's where I again have to disagree with you: I don't perceive, and I don't think many fans do either, that Thomas turned from a villain to a superhero. All he did was as I noted -- he gradually evolved over a period of years (15 in-narrative years as of the movie) into being less of a bastard than he had been. The narratives were pretty consistent about that per his usually doing things for his own reasons/interests and only mellowing over time and after a particularly hard turn hitting rock bottom. And of course it's all fiction... but it's contextually very credible in the sense of being recognizable as "real people", as it were. With the exception of the occasional narrative conceit of "well, yes -- of course "x" amount of drama has to happen this episode or else we don't have a show...", the timing/arcs of the various characters are perfectly credible given the relative events and amount of in-narrative time that passes. (That is, to again example, it wouldn't have been credible for Thomas to have become an *actual* "hero", relative to the audience's "god perspective" of seeing things as they actually occurred vs how most characters in the story _perceived_ things to have happened with him; but *because* it occurred over a course of many years and through various rough patches/instances it does come across as credible/believable.) I'm not sure when/where you derive his becoming a "hero", proper, from the stories as *we*, the audience, saw things play out. (In-narratively? -- oh, sure. There's multiple instances where he's perceived as a "hero" by a number of the characters... but *we*, the audience, "know better": he shot his own hand to get out of the army/war; he was the one who hid Isis in order to "find her"; he saved Jimmy because he had feelings for him; etc...) And again, even at the end, he's still not a saint by any general standard. Fellows did the right thing by *not* having him be the "villainous servant" simply because the character was gay (that is, having it be that "well, as he's gay that's already a degree of character "burden" -- if I make him a villain, then people will accuse me of stereotyping..."), but rather he's a "villainous servant" who just _happens_ to be gay (though with the period-appropriate baggage that comes with that, of course). When/where do we see Thomas become a "saint" or "hero", proper? -- we don't. For the clear majority of all Thomas' actions, we the audience "know better" because we're privy to the character's real/underlying motivations, which are most often far from saintly. By the end, he's simply now less the villain and more a "troubled soul trying to do some better good..."... but still far from a hero. And I hardly see my initial response, nor this one, as being an "essay", lol. It's just more so a sad commentary that in an age of Twitter-esque truncated responses, someone giving a proper, multi-paragraph response is seen as "an essay"... naa -- I was just raised right and believe in giving examples and good explanations for citations. (As a writer, I'm sure you can appreciate that... ;) ) I do like Downton, for sure, but I'm hardly a staunch fan; it's more so that I've seen several videos about certain characters (Thomas, in this particular case) when/where I read certain posts/responses and go "...were we even watching the same show...?". Anyone who sees/perceives this albeit fictional character as having gone from villain-to-hero, in truth, is somehow skipping over or ignoring quite a bit in terms of salient details involved in "x" scenes and story-arcs.) Plus, it literally only takes a few moments to type out a handful of proper paragraphs, so it really isn't that big a deal. (Now, if I was using voice-to-screen... well... *then* you might in fact be getting an essay... lol )

@@tideoftime No disrespect meant, but life really is too short for these long drawn out, serious discussions about a fictitious drama and characters who never actually existed! I've made my points, you see it differently - that's fine. Art is entirely subjective, everyone views it in their own way and takes different things from it. I won't repeat myself, I look at 'Downton' primarily in terms of the writing and I totally get why Julian Fellowes handled the gay character the way he did. In today's woke climate he'd have been crucified for developing Thomas any other way. His journey was entirely predictable! That people like you feel so passionately about people and situations that a writer invented out of thin air, gives me hope for the future of TV drama, so thank you. Oftentimes, people like me despair that reality TV will take over the world!

you are awful

Ber P, you demonstrate your lack of understanding about story structure in your comments on this thread. In the earlier seasons, Barrow was reprehensible in many of his machinations and alliances. Over the course of the tv series, we witness the world as Barrow experiences it, in terms of his self hatred and yet there are glimpses of the man he could be. The lack of understanding prevalent in that era regarding the spectrum of sexual behavior (it’s not black and white, Ber P, is it?) manifested itself in Barrow’s antisocial behavior. He even puts himself in harms way to be “normal”, when he succumbs to the charlatans peddling a physically harmful conversion cure. By focusing on one of his worst acts, which causes Lady Grantham to lose her baby, you dismiss the subtle gradations of character development Barrow experieriences throughout the series. He’s an easy target. But by the tv series conclusion, Barrow is made Head Butler, an honorific that speaks to his demonstrated strength of character and superior ability. Ben P, are you in a glass house, causing you to throw so many stones? Just askin’...

@@ericb2296 bear P mentions in another comment that he's never actually watched much of this show... Most of his opinions seem to come after reading another rather scathing commenter earlier...

@@ericb2296 (Just jumping in) -- Barrow's actions in earlier seasons didn't cause Lady Grantham to lose her baby... that was O'Brien's doing, of which Barrow (at some point) became aware of at a later time after the fact. Just clarifying for attribution's sake...

love him dearly xx

Ber P. You seem a bit unhappy ;)

Ber P. um

Loved that line

Golden Rose. Did jimmy leave ?

Jimmy's an asshole and I'm glad he leave Downton.

Though later he developed a wonderful friendship with Baxter

@@AlexS-oj8qf Jimmy honestly wasn't that bad... he was arrogant but he was pretty much a tamer, straight version of Thomas. I disliked Carson (tho normally i love him), O'Briene and Alfred more for how they acted in season 3.

I know. Pretty much one of thomas’ only friends and it was sad to see someone Thomas really was close with leave forever. Atleast they parted as good friends and not enemies.. 😅😢

Ber P. How so? I haven’t actually watched it but now I’m curious

Ber P. I agree with that. Again, I haven’t seen the show so I can’t say how accurate that is or judge the character, but that does make sense. To me, I dislike it when gay characters are only defined as being that: gay. You know it’s a bad character when that’s the only thing you like about them, and shows try to put poorly written gay characters into those shows all the time just for the sake of getting diversity points-same with any other minority.

Ber P. Wasn’t it O‘Brian with the unborn Baby?🤔

I think he might, in the trailer it alludes to some relationship, so here's hoping he gets the love I feel he deserves.

Ber P. Well he quite redeems himself in the last season don’t you think?

lmao I'm in that position but i would never do such thing no matter how tempting it was because it was wrong and you didn't respect him as human or friends. (the tempting one wasn't really that i want to kiss them while they were asleep but more like they peed without closing the door 😂 who isn't tempted to peek in even if you don't like them lmao)

That speaks to your character....and his! Cheers!

Well, the happy end perhaps happens in the attic. Attic is a place for hidden things.....

Downton Abbey took place in a different kind of society, i hope they keep show US how the people behave with each other back in that period of time

@Flibbertigibbet6 It was not illegal in France. It was not legal either as there is no soecific law that rule out homosexuality. But as with other illegal activities, it happens eventually, behind a closed doors.

@Ber P. fuck off dumbass

@Ber P. Maybe you should be more respectful

You're not. He's been my favourite character the whole time too, was always rooting for him.

I loved him from the start as well!

Love him or hate him, he definitely is the most complex character.

I agree. It's especially difficult for him to have a relationship not just because it's the 1920s in England but because he's now/then the Head Butler, which would leave very little time for even a discreet relationship as so much of his time would taken up with the house as well as his position/"business" being so readily known in the village. However, a clandestine one with perhaps another servant (in the house or from an estate not too far away) could be interesting. But, again, given that it's only a movie vs another season, there really isn't much time for that unfortunately.

I don't think they're was too much realism bending, there were plenty of happy gay couples living together in the 1920’s, disguised as maids and mistresses, or simply friends living together. Just because they were under the radar doesn't mean they weren't there and prospering. I do agree that considering Thomas’ position a relationship would be difficult, but I'd like to think that the family and other servants are in tune enough to their butler’s ways to know what it means when the kings handsome valet keeps visiting, and I think they would all support him. I think after everything that happened in season six most of them truly do want him to be happy. I think I would have been more surprised if the movie hadn't ended with Thomas in a relationship

In Edwardian England? Are you serious? They may have to move someplace else.

@Ber P. Yes. Because every gay man in England went to jail. God...

@Ber P. You don't have to project your cynicism on a show....

@@mgeek1 In fairness, this is post-Edwardian England (particularly as it's after The Great War, when social structures of the Victorian and Edwardian eras began to unravel, if only in measured ways), so it *is* possible for him to potentially have a man in his life... as long as he keeps it very discreet. (A number of men and women were able to maintain same-sex relationships even during the prior eras, they again just had to be very on the down low about it.) However, equally in fairness, it isn't exactly credible for him to be able to have such a relationship while being the Head Butler by the end of the series at such a house -- it would generally attract too much attention unless his "gentleman friend" lived outside of the village, which would likely put some strain on the relationship as being HB is quite time consuming and he'd rarely have much time for a non-in-house relationship... Poor Barrow...

Honestly, SAME! I'm burning down that theater if he doesn't get a happy ending lol

I remember that! I always avoid spoilers-even avoiding the names of guest stars- so when she showed up I was shocked and yelled "OMG! MRS. PATMORE!!!" while bouncing up and down in my seat. LOL

And she played a kind lady-in- waiting on Once Upon A Time. Broke my heart that the kind and sweet she portrayed was killed.

It is important to understand and remmeber just how horrible it was to be a homosexual in England at that time. Homosexuals were considered the lowest of the low, in society...not even socially acceptable to talk about them. And yet, today there are STILL countries were the hate nad bigotry exists. Very rarely did life grant a happy life to gay men, at that ime and place in history.

@Lala lalala Get off your soap box. I never said anything about other groups NOT being discriminated against. If you missed the subject of the clip; it was about Thomas (a gay man). The comments are in reference to the clip and him. All the other people you mentioned in your tirade, have nothing to do with the subject at hand, so why would they be part of the conversation? You haven't the slightest inkling as to my views and stand on the other groups you mentioned and therefor you went way over the line by calling me "hypocritical" As far as Pride Parades go, if you are so offended by them, don't go or watch them. Pride Parades are not exclusive to gay men. They represent a broad spectrum of oppressed and people discriminated against. It truly sounded like you just needed someone to go-off on, so you chose me. Stop trolling for people to berate on KZfaq, and get a life.

Lala lalala well a celibate is someone who chooses to abstain, and asexuals are included in pride parades and the LGBTQIA community

Lala lalala people with disabilities now fight for their own rights even if they don’t choose to have parades

@@Skyebright1 Do you actually have a point?

Hear hear!♥️

Most certainly 😂😍

The beautiful bromance between Rob and Allen is stronger than any role ! Lol

Possibly! I like to think they are friendly because of their mutual memories of Sybil? But I like their smiling scene ask the same

We're-all- Human| there is meant to be a second one google it apparently they are meant to be writing the script rn. But google it

@Lala lalala you my dear have a giant chip on your shoulder ....its also just a show no need to get uppity

@Lala lalala For most people yes, one of the few ways to be happy is in a relationship. You do realize there's more to being gay than having sex, right?

It's that "OMG they were roommates" historians are fond off.

NotContinuum He’s always been forward thinking. Him and Sybil are one in the same only the difference was Sybil was in a different position in the sense that she was never set to inherit and so could express her views he ran downton and if it was know he was supporting a gay man his house would lose respect so he had to keep his opinions to himself. When he found out about Carson’s past and the man black mailing him he still kept Carson even though he did steal (given the circumstances it was ok) and he allowed Bates with his poor leg even though that would ruin his reputation because they were in war together.

In addition to this he had an emotional side that was rarely shown, he thought Thomas is gay therefore he already is at a disadvantage and Carson tried discriminating against Thomas as is correct for the time I think he was sort of his own kind of revolutionary (I’m sorry if this sounds shitty, it’s really isn’t supposed to be. I just think deeply about this kind of stuff and love the opportunity to express my opinions)

Homosexuality was pretty common in that time too. Just not accepted by the law. There is a dialogue in the episode where Lord Grantham says that he'd had a lot of boys try and kiss him during his time in Eton (his school). So it's not exactly a big shock. And like everyone else said, he was a kind man.

To play cricket. Really

He'll be too old for that one. Let's hope George survives!

@@SK28th Look up Adria Carton de Wiart. Tell him he's too old.

@@georgeprchal3924 I'm not saying he can't enlist if he wants to. Be he won't be conscripted by the state as he'll be too old. And considering how he dishonorably left this time it's unlikely he'll be in the next war.

@@SK28th After Dunkirk the British were conscripting left and right. I imagine Thomas being on the beach at Dunkirk and Master George being one of those RAF pilots patrolling the beach.

@@georgeprchal3924 aw. That would be cute :)