Tones? In MY Indo-European language?

Рет қаралды 6,027

Күн бұрын

In this video, Zzineohp discusses Pitch Accent, a fascinating feature of Proto-Indo-European (and many other languages), and how tonogenesis can be achieved, in a sick, epic, and frankly, sick way. Along the way, he discusses some of PIE's wacky inflection patterns, the loanwords that occur in Chinese-adjacent languages, and the limited vocabulary present in Proto-Indo-European. Not gonna lie, Zzineohp is pretty daddy. Okay! Your move, Chris.
The Virhomenian Codex is available Here:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
And some helpful Hanzi (as well as the Prosian phonology) are Here:
docs.google.com/document/d/10...
0:00 Introduction
0:14 Tonogenesis
0:39 Features of Stress
1:00 Stress-Timed Languages
1:23 Reduction
1:43 Pitch Accent
2:01 Tone-sian
2:52 Precedents
3:22 The Virhomenian Languages
5:03 Determiners (the)
5:28 River
5:53 Downwards
6:43 Mountain
7:17 Flows
8:07 Towards
8:42 Me
9:38 Genitive Particle
10:04 Little
11:05 House

Пікірлер: 86

@TheBigGuyBillyBob Ай бұрын

I like this, but these names are NOT it.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

I entertained Throwsian instead of Growsisn, but I couldn't see that consonant cluster developing

@spcxplrr Ай бұрын

as the guy who complained about loan words last time, i'd like to thank you for including loan words this time

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Thank you for giving me the idea!

@merrymerryjerry6736 Ай бұрын

"in the words of doja cat, let me be a wu mao" bruh

@malechex611 Ай бұрын

Youre killing me with the names man

@GraemeMarkNI Ай бұрын

There are several IE languages with tones: Panjabi, Swedish, Croatian-and I’m sure there are more.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Singlish

@dafyddroff8084 Ай бұрын

Limburgs

@jasminekaram880 Ай бұрын

@@andeve3 Elfdalian has tonal distinction.

@jasminekaram880 Ай бұрын

Lithuanian, Latvian and Limburg as well. :)

@crusatyr1452 Ай бұрын

Afrikaans is undergoing tonogenesis to my understanding. Rhea's Language Academy talks about it.

@JustLooking Ай бұрын

With a basic word like "house" NOT being a native term in the Virhomenian family, I'm guessing that in your world Han culture influenced how Virhomenian-speaking groups _built_ houses. Many architectural terms would derive from Old/Middle Chinese; the equivalent words with proto-Virhomenian roots would refer to obsolete structures, or develop new meanings through figurative use. (Consider how English "beam" gained the "ray of light" meaning, if you need a real-world parallel.) Am I on the right track here?

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

I'm just kind of winging it. But they were nomadic before settling in China, I could definitely see that.

@chrysolite2842 Ай бұрын

3:40 this graph was so unexpected yet the connection is so obvious that I'm questioning why haven't I seen me or anyone else make it 😭 just peak comedy👌

@I_Love_Learning Ай бұрын

What graph? The map?

@chrysolite2842 Ай бұрын

@@I_Love_Learning ye, the mandarin

@I_Love_Learning Ай бұрын

@@chrysolite2842 Ah, yeah.

@LanceAbrams Ай бұрын

"I didn't have to add tones, they were already there. Proto-Indoeuropean IS a tonal language!" -Eleanor Shellstrop, probably

@scurly0792 Ай бұрын

This name sounds familiar but I don't know where from

@girlinblack5361 Ай бұрын

@@scurly0792she’s a character from the good place

@scurly0792 Ай бұрын

@@girlinblack5361 AHA THAT'S WHERE

@LanceAbrams Ай бұрын

@@scurly0792 She's the main character in "The Good Place"

@socialistrepublicofvietnam1500 28 күн бұрын

Imagine developing a language for an entire month and naming it "Nosian"

@currypuddin6902 Ай бұрын

sticking out your kyat for the conlang

@crusatyr1452 Ай бұрын

I'm happy someone's brain made this stretch lmao

@charlesoconnor4053 Ай бұрын

camera framerate is approaching 1 fps as the videos go by

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

It really is a problem though, I think it's happening because I have to process it twice to boost the volume to acceptable levels. Maybe I just need to include all the animated stuff after I process it 🤔

@charlesoconnor4053 Ай бұрын

@@zzineohp I think you should deliberately make the problem worse, it's got character

@briank326 27 күн бұрын

From now on I'll never say "goodbye" anymore, only "smeö6 yä4"

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

4:09 Uh, we have a word for that? It's called THE REAL WORLD! LOL! edit: never mind, you actually mentioned that :P

@WynnofThule Ай бұрын

Dude, perfect timing. I've been working on a conlect of Ancient Greek and just learned that it was a tonal language and felt overwhelmed.

@pawel198812 Ай бұрын

Greek had pitch accent rather than tones. The only IE tonal languages in existence are located in South Asia, where it's a relatively recent innovation

@WynnofThule Ай бұрын

@@pawel198812 I thought that counted though

@pawel198812 Ай бұрын

@@WynnofThule Is a moraic language with pitch accent the same as a tonal language with two level tones (L&H) and possibly two-moraic contour tones?

@WynnofThule Ай бұрын

@@pawel198812 uhh...good question. But I also recently learned that apparently Mycenean wasn't like that (and neither was Arcado-Cypriot) so I won't be dealing with that in my case. Lucky me.

@CristiChiri10 Ай бұрын

I am proud that you're teaching me a lot of PIE on the way to making your conlangs. But I wonder, what are the sources for all of the possible PIE sound changes, or did you make up those sound shifts yourself? I can't really find a page where it lists all of them in a nice and simple way. Atm I'm very interested in PIE and I wanna make my own Indo-European language too. Nice video though

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Just made em up. Some of them are based on existing sound changes, but I just look at the existing sounds, and change what I don't like.

@CristiChiri10 Ай бұрын

@@zzineohp interesting. I can't really come up with any sound changes myself which is why I asked if there was a source for the sound changes you made for the language.

@Moses_Caesar_Augustus Ай бұрын

You can find a list of sound changes from PIE in the Wikipedia articles for Proto-Germanic, Proto-Italic, and Proto-Celtic.

@Eosinophyllis Ай бұрын

I can confirm I am more likely to occur at the end of syllables

@spewn2123 Ай бұрын

The Prosian videos have actually been helpful for helping me start making my own PIE-descendant langauges Chances are they're horiffically wrong, but it's fun (I just wanted to make a PIE language that keeps the laryngeals tbh)

@anyalei Ай бұрын

Please do keep going

@JohnSmith-of2gu 22 күн бұрын

The formation of Tone-sian is an educational look at how a language can develop phonemic tones. Cool! Also, it's a reminder of how damn WEIRD tonal languages sound to the western ear. The West Virhomenian languages sound like any other language in proximity to Europe. East Virhomenian ones, very similar aside from the tones, sound like robot martians are trying to speak it. Not at all... um, what's the auditory equivalent of "photogenic"? I don't know the right word.

@arthurgabriel2625 Ай бұрын

11:20 "Banged"

@valentinaaugustina Ай бұрын

as a wu mao i can confirm i am very likely to occur at the end of syllables

@noelleggett5368 27 күн бұрын

In Russian, some stressed and unstressed vowels are pronounced differently. Unstressed O is pronounced like A. Unstressed YE is pronounced like YI.

@paiwanhan Ай бұрын

What do we have to do to get your to say that 7 times?

@tricolorcircle Ай бұрын

I would like to see how the langauges evolved and when they split

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

I'll put the spreadsheet in the description

@vampyricon7026 Ай бұрын

I'm prefacing this by saying I love the series, so I hope you don't take my criticism as a "grr! youtuber doesn't know shit!" Given their position in the Chinese heartland, I would've guessed that they'd use the one-character-one-syllable method of writing (look up Tangut for a particularly disastrous result). I would also be surprised if the tones stayed the same even after the languages diverged: For your reference with tone heights going from 1 low to 5 high, Standarin has /55/, Cantonese had /53/ (now /55/), Hakka has /33/ or /44/, Kaohsiung Hokkien has /44/ with a sandhi form /33/, and Nanjingese has /31/ for the same ancestral tone. And given that they were present during the Middle Chinese period,* I'd expect the tonal languages to lose voicing to a tone split. You might also want to take a look at OC tonogenesis: The areal effects specifically applied to -s and -ʔ and the rest became the default tone (although the stop coda'd syllables were considered separate tones). *Side note: Don't use Wiktionary's "Middle Chinese" reconstructions, as they're made by taking a rhyme book (a guide to rhyming) that explicitly says it accommodates multiple dialects as a basis. Coblin's A Compendium of Northwest Chinese Phonetics is a much better basis for the work. (And if you're using the STCA stage or anything after, you can use Wiktionary's "Middle Chinese" to look up homophones, as they'd be accommodated by the rhyme book.)

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Yeah, I know I oversimplify the context whenever I present comments disagreeing with me, it's a problem 😭 I know it's very probable that it would switch to one syllable words only. But I didn't want it, so I willed the possibility out of existence. Not only is this true, it's actually already in the languages. I'm just that bad at pronouncing tones. I looked at doing this, but it doesn't really work because Virhomenian doesn't have aspirated plosives. I did do a ton of finagling to make it work in Growsian, but even then it's mostly just tenuis consonants, AND now they don't have affricates.

@vampyricon7026 Ай бұрын

@@zzineohp I wasn't saying that their words would become monosyllabic, but that they'd use two characters to write a disyllabic word, for instance. The only exception I know to that rule is Japanese.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

@@vampyricon7026 oh that's much worse! in my defense though, you cant exactly say "look up Tangut" like its Spanish

@vampyricon7026 27 күн бұрын

@@zzineohp skill issue

@user-rl4rl7sv2y 13 күн бұрын

Prosian, written in cyrillic: Со тахас грэ со вирсьэссэс цэттэр ад ме смэйюас бэнгрд.

@user-rl4rl7sv2y 13 күн бұрын

Written with the russian romanization: "So takhas gre so virs'esses tsetter ad mye cmeĭyuas bengrd."

@I_Love_Learning Ай бұрын

What the heck is "Not gonna lie, Zzineohp is pretty daddy. Okay! Your move, Chris."?

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

I don't know I spent the whole day editing I don't have the brain power to write a description

@MrRhombus Ай бұрын

The puns XD

@MemoryChip Ай бұрын

idk but irl there are deadly wars and famines in Sichuan (where verhomenian is) that basically killed everyone so hopefully that didn't happened in this time line.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

It might have-but those Virhomenians are hardy. They even had there own dynasty, the bian dynasty (Replacing what was the Shu dynasty in our timeline)

@lettuceandotherveggies715 Ай бұрын

ancient greek mention!

@ChrisW101 Ай бұрын

Where are the transcriptions man

@adnzip8198 Ай бұрын

The Arabic at 2:56 😭😭😭

@OkandUtlanning 26 күн бұрын

4:09 Are you saying China is democratic (in real life) or am I being very stupid

@zzineohp 26 күн бұрын

Basically, I interject as a character who is, essentially a paid shill for China, who takes the opportunity to make an propagandistic statement about the country. After being corrected, he reacts poorly

@lorefox201 Ай бұрын

i hate each and every aspect of this good job keep cooking

@Pokephosgene Ай бұрын

I am surprised that you chose to make most of the languages from the group non-tonal. Afterall, tonality surrounds them, and even a democratic China would exert pressure, leading to conformity. Languages which "sound" more Chinese would survive.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Well I already had Prosian made, I wasn't gonna throw it away

@rayahui3768 29 күн бұрын

Lemme be a wumao Dead lmao

@ankurmandloi5456 29 күн бұрын

Not the 'Avestani' 😭😭 That has so much wrong with it I can't tell you So I'm not going to

@zzineohp 28 күн бұрын

Yeah I know I know dude

@zzineohp 28 күн бұрын

Their fault for ending it in -sta while in that region

@alananimus9145 Ай бұрын

China is a democracy 😂😆

@perroquack Ай бұрын

Google drawings ahh

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Hey at least I'm not one of those paint guys

@greasechild95 Ай бұрын

another prosian video another video of zzineohp failing to pronounce tones and /r/. i will help you to learn these sounds.

@zzineohp Ай бұрын

Bro what are you talking about? I literally pronounced them perfectly

@Poopick Ай бұрын

I dont like your romanization. Can you provide us with this sentense in all of those conlangs using the ipa please? Edit: forgot to thank for the interesting video, so thank you😊