Kylden was just as much a victim, think about it, he'd been raised to hate the very thing he was.

@@Best.Of.Britian youre not wrng

Still, I want Bortus to Divorce Klyden while Medical staff is not around to save him.

True, but I think it's deeper than that also. After doing what was expected of him for so long, I don't think he can face the idea that he could have lived differently all this time.

@@Best.Of.Britian Like a lot of trans people are irl. It’s the same message just done a little bit differently.

Parody, to homage, to successor.

@@liesdamnlies3372 Nicely put

It's a shame season 4 hasn't been approved for production.

@@Stoned_Coyote Not yet anyway. MacFarlane is still interested in continuing it, and he's dealt with being cancelled before (same thing happened to Family Guy). Hopefully he and his colleagues can wrangle another season or two. It was just getting good. :

I like it. Once it started taking itself seriously, the show got really good.

Bortus is the ideal in this scenario. Supports the kids as much as possible, tries to work with the other parent as much as he can but ultimately chooses his kid over this partner, not an easy decision to act on but he does it whilst making sure Topa knows she is worthy and loved.

@@dm121984 unrealistic. this girl is basically never safe to walk on her own planet, she will literally be spit on. she will ether have to spend her life on a ship around no other mocluns, or at most a small few that dont have the same opinions are most of the planet. this is a species that kills their females at birth or secretly changes their gender. Bortus, is speaking from a idealistic land of dreams. while klyden knows exactly, whats awaiting her if she goes down this path. the scorn the loneliness the hatred, he tried to make it so that she would never have to go through that. because he knows first hand.

​@@soulsreaper7145 It was _not her parents' choice_ whether she transition back to her birth sex. She understood what her society felt about the matter. She knew her choices. She did not lack awareness of how Moclans treat women. She made her own decision about what to do with her own body. As was her right. And she made that decision with the blessing of her father, Bortus.

Also near the end you can also feel the tention of Bortus being "i’ve made a mistake, and i’m sorry" even without words

​@@soulsreaper7145 and why does that mean she is not worthy of existing as she is? Women have been treated as lesser for centuries. It may not be as extreme as on their planet, but change has to happen somewhere anyway. Other women in their culture exist. Straight men there exist. They are a society built on discriminating against those people, and eventually those people are going to find a life of their own or fight for change in their homelands. Idealism has its place because, without it, nobody would ever fight for a better tomorrow. Bortus is right to show compassion to his child. Klyden is fair in having mixed feelings about it as a victim of their society who has been forced into a world of self-hatred, but needs to realise that this is not his or his child's fault.. it's the society that told them their existences were wrong, and it's the society that needs to adapt to the fact that women deserve a right to exist as they are without living in fear of societal discrimination.

I think Bortus was quiet at first since he tried to give Klyden a chance to come clean but when we he was hesitant and lying, Bortus knew he had to step up

I think for Klyden it's deeper, he knows what Topa is going through having gone through them himself, and he clings to the traditions as being right because it's the only way he can justify why he had to go through the pain he did growing up knowing he's not right.

@@edwarddeguzman3258 This factor is part of the reason why I still like Klyden despite the awful things he's done. He's a living embodiment of the cruel callousness the Moclans display toward their own. Despite being in the same position as Topa from birth, Klyden became as traditional and norm-serving as all of their society, probably to cope with the pain of his "birth deformity," and then he sires a daughter. Then a stop-motion children's show convinces his husband that it's okay for their child not to receive the same treatment as every other female child, their government has to force him and the rest of the Union to perform it, Moclus' foremost philosopher turns out to be an unaltered female, and as they grow older, Topa decides to reverse on the sex-change and live as a female. Really, life has got to be like a conservative's nightmare for Klyden, and the whole time, he HAS to be wondering if his life is valid.

@@theguyinthecorner605 really is a good season

becasue bortus belives in mocklan honor.

Yeah it took me completely off guard I don’t think I’d ever heard bortis truly angry before this

My favorite scene 😂😂😂🎉🎉Klyden was always a pain in the neck to me even before this happened.

He showed some tough love to his partner who is likely living with the fact that he himself was like Topa, but came to be indoctrinated by the society he was raised in, contending with the fact that just cause it was common practice and socially acceptable didn't make it morally right. This exploration of values is why I always loved the star trek series, it held a mirror to our own society in a way, but like a fun house mirror where we do not recognize that we are viewing ourselves from a different point of view. Helping to remove the bias we hold for ourselves, our race, our species, our society.

Look I read the comments and knew there be an outburst, but still I'm shocked as F when it came out

They were phenomenal. Really good choice for the role.

No kidding. Kind of a wild transition from Family Guy to this, you can tell which is the passion project.

This is the reverse trans allegory. This is showing that what people are doing today is wrong.

Depends on what you mean by progressive. But yes, don't mess with gender, it is set in stone, unless we develop some new technology

⁠@@steelbear2063 the show has no subtlety with it’s theme and who it represents but somehow you still missed the point

​@Steel Bear Dude this is about being trans and society forcing you to be something you're not, that's the point

Fundamentally, it is a crude work around for our current transgender issues as in this fictional case, it is the birth gender identity that is being asserted not a gender identity contrary to the physical birth gender. In a way, this is a round about way to deliver a social comment around the current bias of some in our society.

@@johnwang9914 It is crude, and you're not wrong. However, I do want to point out that some trans people were born with an ambiguous visible gender (known as intersex), and were assigned a gender and operated on to make that gender fit. Not all intersex people are trans, but some trans people are intersex.

@@mahna_mahna sounds like its a little irrelevant to this situation. Since the diffrence is with perfect and imperfect knowledge

​@@electricangel4488 I think it's highly relevant. And I'm not sure what you mean by "perfect" knowledge in this case. We're talking about how someone feels in both this fictional example and in the real world.

@@mahna_mahna knowledge of the parents. Topa parents know all factors A person with such body later on getting body disphoria is a chance. Ussualy getting a surgery to aline it to the dna xy or xx works. But that doesnt mean it doesnt happen that people with it get body dismorphia.

it's because I think Fox cancelled them so Hulu picked up where they left off hence why it's on hulu which was better and worse for the series in my opinion. better because they have a bigger budget and we get more of the series but worse because it became more of a serious show instead of a comedy

@@noobkiller11790 As they say, "Who pays the Piper calls the tune."

@@noobkiller11790 I just finished looking at this season yesterday and that's the first thing came in my mind was it seemed like a lot of the comedy got taken out and it became more of a serious show which isn't bad but the comedy helps set it apart from Star Trek and Stargate

It's on Disney Plus now so it's gaining some traction.

@@warlockgod66 This season was the original vision of the show for the creator but Fox network forced him to pitch the show as a sci fi parody as they wanted it to be like his other successful show Family Guy thinking it could be a hit too.

whose redeeming arc? Bortis did nothing wrong

@@theemperiumofkek1362 Not Bortus, but Klyden.

​@@theemperiumofkek1362 klyden's redeeming arc

From parody? I'm pretty sure they messed up the "Parody" and accidentally create a Star Trek Successor

Moclan society is a misogynistic society taken to it's extreme conclusion. Where women are not needed for procreation and thus seen as unnecessary.

Not so different really, by choosing an intersex child's sex you can in fact make them trans, the same way if you alter a cis person's sex they too can become trans. That's really all it is. Many intersex individuals are broadly speaking trans as a result of such medical interference by parents or doctors, the trans condition in intersex individuals proves the idea of transgender folks experiences even though they have no record of being intersex that we are aware of. Not everything is so easily seen when it comes to human physiology. Some intersex folks have no idea they are intersex and neither did doctors, not all intersex conditions are observable to the naked eye.

It should still be the child's choice once they are old enough.

@@roguejester4986 sometimes its not possible... not every case is simple like that... if life is on the line you want the child to live? or die?

@@Alkharia666 It is still their choice regardless.

A infant, or any child below the age of 5, wouldn’t be able to choose. They don’t have that cognitive ability.

I was just thinking, what if the assumption that "all of the species are male" is just wrong, because their society enforce it? 🤔

The parents of intersex people have a very difficult decision. If they don't Make a decision, the child grows upon with health problems. An example was in the Philippines. The "girl" grew up with female and male characteristics. At birth she presented more female. The parents and doctors didn't notice it. But during puberty, the male gonads overpowered her female gonads. She wanted to be female, but is now infertile. But there are questions. What if her parents knew? What if they chose male and she grew up wanting to be female? What if they chose female, and then she wanted to be male? It's a hard decision.

@@rickrollrizal2747 No, some healthy intersex people are forced to have surgeries and sometimes that may cause a problem later on because it doesn't align with their mind.

@@robin9759 again, as I said it's. A hard decision. The rarenesa of the condition doesn't help. But these are diagnosed individuals. Not the same as those liberals pretending to be of another gender because it makes them special. And them pretending makes it bad for the real intersex cause they get included in the backlash.

@@rickrollrizal2747 No it isn't? God, I was agreeing until you starting saying people are pretending. I understand some people say so for the content, but gender dysphoria is an actual thing that's not the same as intersex, a gender that expresses both male and female with no lean. It's easier to do but seeing intersex as a "condition" and not how someone is makes more people opt to perform surgeries on these infants and more likely to turn out that way.

This show is a prime example of how to spread a message without preaching. The trick is to show that both sides of the issue have merit, and not demonize one side or the other.

@@ArthurRex131 It never showed the merit of moclan’s sexist beliefs, if anything from what I’ve seen, it’s shown as a huge mistake beginning to end.

Not Moclan society. I'm talking about Klyden specifically. He made some salient points about how Topa would face relientless bullying and virulent hatred if she weren't made to undergo the sex change surgery. It's kind of undermined by the fact that Topa has no need nor desire to ever see Moclus, but it's still a valid point.@@Toneill029

When Bortus snaps, he snaps HARD.

No Bortis never reveals this information and even Isaac figures it out and Bortis says that's for him to decide to tell. Isaac is like I understand. Your child decided to tell me about her situation is that alright? Yes. She has the right to tell anyone she wishes. I understand. Isaac proceeds to help her undergo the Gender reassignment surgery.

@@charlesacker9174 Issac the trans ally we need in this day and age.

​@@Toneill029Nothing to do with trans, there are no trans there, only parents/society FORCING physical change unto a baby child that didn't decide anything.

​@@Toneill029 Actually this would be a de-transition, because Topa was born a girl and was given transition surgery at birth.

@@TheGrimmCommoner Still well within the trans experience broadly, as Topa would serve as a perfect example of an intersex child who was surgically altered as an infant, something we do not do with infants who are not visibly intersex, which intersex was/is viewed as a condition that needs to be corrected to alter them to be in line with social expectations, which then branches into trans related issues trans folks also face. Intersex children sometimes grow up to be trans as a result of these surgical alterations at infancy. So while yes at face value Topa would be de-transitioning from our perspective of the issue, in Moclan society she's transitioning from the socially accepted norm of male. Which in our society would be cisgendered, to the socially unaccepted female, which in our society is broadly transgendered. Topa serves as a representation of women's, intersexed, and trans issues, in a society that is misogynistic taken to it's extreme conclusion.

lol no the point being presented is that no matter what you do to the outside you are still the same on the inside trans woman = man trans man = woman cant change biology its just reality

True

Only that the Moklans don't need both genders. It's difficult to imagine that situation.

@@jasperzanovich2504 What only shows that they´re not a male species, they´re...hermaphrodites? Well Bortus laid an egg that Klyden fertilized and if they are both of the same sex...then the discussion that they had on the Orville about a child with 3 legs would rather be about a child with only 1.

Then it's wonderful that no medical practitioner suggests just giving young children the ability to transition without extensive psychotherapeutic intervention over the course of years.

Wasn't thus made like 6 years ago?

​@@Ranbo_dogno this show us relatively recent

@snap2cb777 but i saw vids from 6 years ago

@@Ranbo_dog it says 1 year for me

@bsgfan1, I'm confused with this comment. Did I miss something?Klyden didn't know he was born female until he was an adult and was never seen as a female to receive mistreatment. He in fact was not fond of females and since he never identified as a female, he was glad he had the surgery done to him.

@@Pianobug007 In fact, I remember an episode where Topa was picking up on his people's hypermisogeny and actively talking down to the other girls in his class, and he'd been picking up that crap from Klyden.

This can’t be applied to Klyden because he never truly experienced the prejudice Moclans women experienced, since he underwent the surgery when he was a baby, like Topa was. He only found out very recently in his life, once Bortus had joined the Union and Klyden was examined by a Union doctor

That would’ve been a better line but that still doesn’t change the fact that Topa has every universal right to be what God and Nature created her to be. Why should she be turned into something she isn’t all for an imperfect society that views the female gender as an inferior gender?

​@@lochness5524But Topa felt like a female inside, even after the surgery. Is it possible that Klyden feels like a female too but doesn't act on it to avoid problems?

This is about a persons gender not matching their external or perceived sex. It doesn’t need to be only for one type of person.

It works for many things I think. It works as a metaphor for intersex and trans people.

Eh. I think it can be very broadly applied to literally anyone experiencing issues involving gender.

@@ajjohnson5046 gender = sex just cuz some pedo in the 60s tried to change the word doesnt mean its real gender is a synonym for sex

@@ajjohnson5046 idk what you mean, gender is synonymous with sex. But Topa is a female and she knew it… so… everything matches

circumcision is not mutilation.

@ArthurRex131 To injured, disfigure or change by irreparably removing healthy tissue. The Foreskin (present in males and females) is healthy tissue. There is also the frenulum, which is a densely packed band of nerves that connects the foreskin to the glands The foreskin helps by protecting the glans, improving immunological health through flora production, and maintaining a proper pH, sensitivity through the Meissner Corpuscles, natural lubrication provided by sebaceous glands and natural bodily mechanics during intercourse.

@@MJCP4while I don’t think I would ever do it to myself, and wouldn’t do it to my son without his consent, other parents have their own choices to make.

@@BrowncoatGofAZbut is it their choice if it isn’t a medical need? No child *needs* to be circumsized

@@lunaeclipse7717 from a logical POV, no. But from a cultural POV, it’s probably different.

Using the word transphobic would not really help in this case due to the fact that they are a mano gendered species. Even for them the word mail has little meaning for a species that only has one gender, and that gender can do the actions as well as the biological effects of both a human comparison of female and male. To them a female born from their genetics will be comparable to a human born with no arms or possibly even five eyes.

They're transphilic, not transphobic. They wouldn't make a child transition if they were transphobic, idiot.

"transphobic" bro if anyone is transphobic here it's the child she's the one complaining about the alteration you ain't gon see a trans person doing that

​@@GuiltyFaTThe species has a female gender, it's just discriminated so heavily against in society it is considered saving face to "correct" your rare female child to male.

oh i have heard form other people that this is a detransition metaphor and im just like... bro, the point, way over ur head!

who the hell thinks any of the Moclan story line is anti trans? How? My critique is that it is too on the nose pro trans and the conservative point of view sometimes is so simplified that it becomes a strawman agrument. I think in earlier seasons the Moclan mainstream point of view was more nuanced and a better representation of real life bigotry. In the end of this episode I really wanted an answer from Klyden to "what satisfaction does it bring you to follow the Moclan way that you are willing to lose your family for?". My bet would be "Because if I admit that Topa is a female, I have suffered for years for nothing."

I think it is very neutral it can be interpreted both ways, and that is what a good writer can do is tread down that thin line and tell a good story.

I think on the surface it give the "parents force kids to be trans" vibe(because authoritative Transphobic parents thinks every parent is as authoritative as them) but when you look at it from the fact that it's an alien culture the important part is what Topa feels, she feels she is a woman and she has to be a woman despite what her surroundings have told her her entire life.

@@DarkhalfBreed that makes sense honestly.

It's a round about way of discussing transgender issue as Toba's birth gender is female and it is her asserting a psychologic female gender identity from her birth despite the physical gender reassignment. This is pretty much the opposite of transgender issues where the psychologic gender identity does not match the physical gender from birth. But this is all to get around the shallow minds that are antagonistic to our current transgender issues.

@@johnwang9914 It takes after the star trek tradition of round about ways of handling it. Dax and gay issues for example

@@johnwang9914 This is often done to make people who wouldn't otherwise be able to conceptualize the situation more able to understand it. For example, the movie "White Man's Burden", or the episode of TNG "Angel One", where women are stronger and dominate over men (who have fewer rights).

Mean while also taking a crack at the idea of tansitioning children for the parent ideas

@@electricangel4488 Quite the difference between a cultural and legal requirement for an infant physical sex reassignment portrayed in this fiction and parents simply not forcing cultural norms onto a child's psychology. If there is any forcing of gender identity in our society, it is to be cis gender and this "forcing" is prevalent throughout society even in our advertising and media. No one forces their child to be transgender, if anything there is a lot of pressure to conform with societal norms.

Maybe

More likely an issue involving intersexed people. It common in that situation where the parents and doctors decide the sex and operate on the baby and not tell them.

@@gerardomunoz6725 ohhh that makes more sense

as the show demonstrated, its less about what she was born as and more how she felt inside. no matter whats inside your pants, or your genes, everyone will still have a gender identity that will show through no matter what.

@@napalaprentice I have always seen this story arc as a simple idea that everyone transforms to suit their political viewpoints. It's not a pro-Trans or an anti-Trans argument. It's simply "Do not make decisions for your children that will alter their entire existence". Examples: do not perform a sex-change operation on kids younger than 18, and do not forbid those kids from taking said operations when they are mature enough.

From the appearance they have medical technology advanced enough to actually perform sex change operations. We're talking about civilizations here capable or complete cell cloning and accelerated cell regeneration. Additionally the sexes, even in humans are far more alike that people realize when you look at things from a genetic viewpoint. The male sex is simply a small set of active genes on the Y chromosome which is programmed to take specific acts during development, where as the female sex contains no additional intformation (the two ending sex chromosomes are basically holding the same genes, just one set of expressions inherited from the father and another of the mother, there's no additional information there). Effectively ALL humans are by default female unless those small number of genes on the Y chromosome are present and other receptor genes are functioning. It's not hard to imagine, given the demonstrated technology that they could manipulate the genes in such a matter to have them express, or even possibly use donor material from a parent to effect expression. In short they have atual sex change, not what we have now which is simply cosmetic procedures.

Yeah, the Bortus reveal was quite unexpected.

Gender identity doesn’t exist

Same actress as female Topa. They digitally altered her voice to sound more "masculine" until the surgery was done.

Caitlyn Jenner

I think we humans are more of a blanket not that female are the default ones but the basic human organism doesn't have boobs or penis is just a human without fully formed sex organs.

It's more than a feeling...

It never has been

No, gender is not a social construct. Gender roles are a social construct. Gender is neurological. Trans women are neurologically women. Trans men are neurologically men.

@@fabplays6559 gender was invented so it is a social construct

​@@ozymandias8523 gender is far from a social construct or a learned thing David Reimer got a botched circumcision that mutilated him, John Money (the sub-human) known for his views that gender was learned rather than innate Money persuaded the baby's parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer's best interest. At the age of 22 months, Reimer underwent an orchiectomy, in which his testicles were surgically removed. He was reassigned to be raised as female and his name changed from Bruce to Brenda. Money further recommended hormone treatment, to which the parents agreed. Money then recommended a surgical procedure to create an artificial vagina, which the parents refused. According to John Colapinto's biography of David Reimer, starting when Reimer and his twin Brian were six years old, Money showed the brothers pornography and forced the two to rehearse sexual acts. Money would order David to get down on all fours and Brian was forced to "come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks". Money also forced Reimer, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. On "at least one occasion" Money took a photograph of the two children performing these acts When either child resisted Money, Money would get angry. Both Reimer and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections"; when they resisted inspecting each other's genitals, Money got very aggressive. Reimer says, "He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'Now!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking." Money's rationale for his treatment of the children was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" "at thrusting movements and copulation" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Yes. Have you ever heard of the John/Joan case? Absolutely horrific

@@eldritchcupcakes3195 Yeah… truly blood curdling.

Yeah surgery done to intersex people mostly I think

@@eldritchcupcakes3195 I think the John/Joan case proves that gender identity is neurological and really represents the experience of transgender people. Despite never being told he was born male, John identified as such and always felt uncomfortable being raised as a girl.

@@fabplays6559 yeah it’s pretty definitive

I think that is very true to life, there ARE trans people struggline with internalised transphobia and Klyden really represents that.

Not exactly trans anything. You are ignoring the part where they force a sex change on a biological female to be male cause they society demands it to be all male.

He is trans and wants his daughter to be-trans male as him as their home planet culture think females are inferior, so they force girls to transition into males.

That defeats the entire story. She was born a girl, is a girl inside, so why use a male actor? In real life, when people undergo transition surgery, they don't change bodies - they are still using the body they are born with.

it's the same actor

@@rice_9027 Topa was portrayed by Blesson Yates in Season 2, then by Imani Pullum in Season 3.

True , especially since it is the representation on how trans supporters parents mutilate and manipulate their own innocent children to have the child of the gender they wanted instead of loving the child as he/she is. The only difference is that in that serie , the choice is made out of love , in reality , the parents that do that to their children do it because the don't love their children and want them changed.

@LawnMower_gaming1 If you want your child to transition , then it means you don't accept your child for what he/she is , it then means you don't love your child . Simple logic. Also , a child doesn't want to transition , that has never happened and will never happen , it's always the gay male parents or the mother that forces them or manipulate them.

@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means. Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is. A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents. You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took. Hide in shame , child abuser.

@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means. Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is. A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents. You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took. Hide in shame , child abuser.

​@@AdvancedKrizalid A child will only want to transition after years of having the body screaming that he or she is someone else. Even then, as a parent, I would tell that child to be patient until mature enough to make a clear decision on the matter, to really think about it in the meantime, and to support that decision when the time comes.

except she was actually born female

Have you ever heard of the story of David Reimer?

@@cledgefenrir5681 or Nora Vincent, she lived as a man and after living like a man for years, she killed herself David Vincent killed himself a few years after learning what happened to him and there's plenty of others who have posted about their regrets in transitioning Their 40% suicide rate has more to do with regret and pain from the surgeries and pills they have to take for the rest of their lives than it being about society killing them in the streets

I dunno, highlighting the issue of transitioning children…transitioning children… not so pro trans as you think booboo.