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This was not a “give away”, “error”, “mistake” or “stupidity”. This was a case of politicians/lobbyists selling the tech for their own personal gain. I’m sure that’s also the reason behind Forever Energy’s difficulties in getting a license.

15 million in US development over 6 years, vs. 300 million invested by China over 6 years (according to your numbers) it's very clear where each governments' priorities lie.

Glad that flow batteries are being covered. They have huge potential. One gripe is that the first successful redox battery demo was done by an Aussie chemical engineer. She figured out the sulphuric acid method to do that demo in the 80’s. That’s the patent expiry that opened up the market in the early 2000’s. It wasn’t all NASA and US gov research.

The US Government could simply buy Bushveld Minerals for $1b and it would have all the Vanadium it will ever need for Vanadium Redox Flow Batteries.

Working as an engineer I can say that we've (US, Europe) been giving away tech to China for decades.

It's great to hear more news about redox flow batteries. During my first year of my chemistry bachelor 6 years, I had a class where we had to write a short report and make a presentation about a novel subject in a group. I chose the redox flow battery as a subject and got very excited about the capabilities. Pretty sad that it hasn't taken off as much as I hoped 6 years ago

I can't see why China having this technology is a bad thing. They need to have grid scale energy storage too. The US government should definitely facilitate US manufacture of this technology though.

The problem isn't that RFB shouldn't be given away, it's that RFB should have open source from the start. Public funds should mean public benifit.

Thanks for a great video! A video editing request for you Matt, when comparing two numbers, would you be able to put both numbers on screen at the same time instead of sequentially? Example at 13:36-13:42. I find it easier to mentally compare the numbers this way. In either case, thanks for reading my comment! Cheers!

Most politicians are not creators, builders, or beneficial thinkers. This, combined with an inherent lack of honesty and integrity in those same politicians has been one of the key factors in the decline of America. The sad part is that a large number of Americans continue to support those corrupt politicians. They are either willfully ignorant, or they are easily fooled by the cheerleading squad for corrupt politicians; you know the squad as the media. We need term limits and a media that is not controlled by politicians or billionaires.

Bushveld Minerals in South Africa are a major supplier of Vanadium to the West and they are currently in the process of completing their Vanadium Redox Flow Electrolyte Plant, to produce 200mwh per annum. Bushveld Minerals also own/control 50% of the VRFB provider Cellcube. Bushveld Minerals is a listed company on the London Stock Exchange.

A group of engineers with NRECA and I visited a redox flow battery manufacturer a decade or so ago, somewhere in the NE US mainland. We spent a half a day there, learning about the issues they were having in design and manufacturing. They were building flow batteries into modified shipping containers for a project in a remote Alaskan village. The thing I remember most about the batteries was the complexity of the monitoring and control of the system. There were wires and circuit boards everywhere. I thought about how many things could go wrong. Maybe it was all just monitoring and not really necessary for operation, but I don't think the batteries ever went in service due to breakdowns or failures. If anyone is familiar with this project, I'd be interested to hear what ever happened here.

You should make a video comparing pros and cons for all the different electrochemical batteries including redox flow batteries, liquid metal batteries, sodium-ion batteries, and others.

If it was funded by US taxpayers money it should either be open sourced or the money should be paid back.

Great video! It’s frustrating that the US doesn’t find the $300 million to help alleviate supply chain limitations to future energy/power, yet the same US finds 10-100x to fight overseas wars. It’s not just the US, every country should attempt to secure supply chains in order to protect internal and external peace.

Honestly I think it is way more important to incentive and invest in new batteries than to care who will profit. In this case China was clearly more interested and better prepared to handle Vanadium and you cannot dismiss the benefits of having a country that is willing to invest into it when compared with a country that clearly slept on it for years. At the end of the "day" (or rather century), what matters is that we have the technology to go net zero, not who profits the most, because I can tell you right know where the biggest profit will go: The ecosystem, the planet.

I thought Vanadium batteries were invented in Australia

When did this channel become political and anti China? I subscribed to learn about new technology that could save the planet and advance human civilization. After all we share the same planet...

I'm a little surprised at the focus on the fact that China was able to make use of this technology while the US ignored it. I very much enjoyed the update on the technology -- and if focusing on the fact that a relatively small amount of research money is making green energy work better in China but not the US helps promote adoption of that technology in the US, I get it. However, I'd prefer a less "America First" tone. Don't get me wrong. You provide tremendous value. I'm just not used to you dragging politics so prominently into the technology discussion. Successful adoption of renewables is a global problem. I'd be curious to know why there was no push to embrace it in the US.

I get thr immediate outrage but in terms of global impact, giving China this technology was the right thing to do. Not to get too political but we could easily lead green manufacturing if the voters actually demanded it and voted for politicians that support green tech. Clearly thr private sector can't compete with China, but the public sector can... easily.

Matt, you have to be put up for an Oscar. You looked genuinely surprised that the US government would 'let' the technology go overseas. Businesses and the government have been doing this for years in the name of profit and greed.

Saudi Armaco are also building a Vanadium RFB production facility which is due to come online next year. It will produce 3GWH of VRFB's annually. They are extracting Vanadium from spent oil.

Had been keeping an eye on the Redflow company in Aus which produced some zinc-bromine units that you could install in residential homes, the only issue being the smell/gas toxicity apparently, needed to be installed in a very well ventilated space in case of off-gassing due to the bromine used in their electrolytes. Unfortunately I don't think they are pursuing their residential home battery lines (ZCell) anymore and are moving onto just their industrial versions of the ZBM3, which is unfortunate, as I really liked the idea of the safety of using a battery that isn't potentially going to burn down my home.

Rabbit Hole (1) Iron-Air: Not sure if it's worth the research, but twenty years ago, an American company developed the iron-air battery and the US Military labeled it disruptive technology and outlawed it. In other words, our military has been stopping progress and preventing technological development. Rabbit Hole (2) Thorium Salt: Current reactor design was selected (and enforced) for it's ability to make material for bombs. We had a running Thorium Salt reactor for a year. Somewhere around 1967. This design can burn most of the actinide sequence. They run at ambient pressure, 750 degrees, so much safer on that front. The waste is over three hundred times faster to become harmless. If they do manage to overheat, the molten salt just dumps into a cooling chamber, so much safer. And lastly, they can burn the waste from the current idiotic designs.

But how do vanadium flow batteries compare to iron flow batteries? Iron is cheaper($0.045/ lb for iron ore) & more plentiful than vanadium ($7.20/lb for V2O5)). Aside from their existing deployment down in San Diego, ESS just signed a deal for a 2 GWh facility in Sacramento.

I'm not mad at China. They are wise enough to invest in state-owned enterprise for the purpose of advancing their industry and technological progress. If anything this should result in a re-examination of our own ideological fetters that are causing the US to refuse to use government policy for necessary investment.

This is a great video with many great graphics that artfully simplify a complex technology. As a seasoned energy storage pioneer, I believe climate change is a global problem requiring global collaboration to solve, so I’d like to clarify 3 facts: 1: The 400MWh Dalian battery is not the US technology - the US tech needs only half the footprint. 2: PNNL never gave the technology away. Rather, Rongke Power invested $72M into US collaboration to fund over 300 man-years of work by US engineers and scientists. Rongke also willingly shared access to crucial advanced components and production technologies to together deliver the breakthrough modular vanadium product. 3: The US tech electrolyte is no longer being produced in China, despite Rongke investing two decades and over $100M to refine vanadium electrolyte production and then apply it to the US tech. They are still the only ones who know how to make it, and it will take many years to develop the process in the US. Net, Net: The result of this decade of passionate, award-winning global collaboration is a US-patented, commercially compelling battery that could be manufactured in the US.

While the SNAFU about this license is frankly not surprising - in the end this may be a good thing; in that more grid storage is installed in China (and other places?) and we ALL benefit from the reduced carbon emission. This is like Mercedes and Volvo giving away their patents on passenger safety cell and 3-point seat belts - it saves lives. Profit is not important as avoiding worse climate change.

I heard that one possible use of flow battery would be in EVs. Instead of recharging the battery at a charge station, the depleted electrolytes on the cars are swapped with the charged electrolytes. Then the depleted electrolytes are charged at the charge station getting ready for the next swap.

Given the climate emergency, all the green energy development should be open source. It's definitively not the time for throat cutting competition and the witholding of possible solutions. E.g.: China switching to green energies will save way more lives and millions of dollars in the US and the whole world just by reducing the harm (like natural disasters, hurricanes, droughts, etc) that would happen otherwise.

I don't know what Forever Energy has designed. But I can tell you that they certainly did not design the battery they showed you in that rendering. How do I know? Because I made that rendering when I worked for UET (yeah I know it's not a great rendering). Notice how it looks awfully similar to the small Vanadis batteries at the 6:48 mark? By the way that battery was patented by UET - US11276870B2.

"If they can secure the license, they're definitely a company to keep your ion..." I always enjoy your puns, Matt, but this one deserves an award! Keep up the great work.

Why is a license needed at all? The research was paid for with public money. The fruits of that research should be freely available.

An Australian company produces a type of (electrolyte) Flow Battery that uses Bromine, which is completely inert (safe) and can last nearly 100 years. What's more, its charge doesn't discharge over time, and its efficiency degradation is incredibly slow... meaning even if you haven't used the battery in years, it will still have the majority of its charge, so it's ideal for stationary energy storage solutions. The (RFB) flow battery discussed in the video, seems to be a more dense version, and thus requires a smaller footprint

Broooooo seriously! Thank you for covering this story!! I couldn’t understand why no one seems to care how we paid to have technology sent somewhere else. Love you!

Canadian perspective: make it easier to license, and give subsidy to US development that scales up with US content. But share the tech. North America is not the biggest contributor to global warming, stuff like this needs to be developed and used world wide. Also, tie improvements to formula back to all license holders, with incentives (monetary) so that the entire licensed industry can be benefit.

There are also Zince-Bromide based flow batteries, like the ones the Australian company Redflow currently produce.

I didn’t hear WHY the US “gave away” this technology without reserving the right to also use it in the US. This doesn’t make sense. WHY?

Where we're at a disadvantage is that Vanadium is mined in South Africa, China, & Russia, so we're dependent on them for a key raw material.

Matt said lithium batteries last for ten years. But the LFP batteries last far longer - they can have 3000 or more charge-discharge cycles, compared to NMC batteries with 1000 or so. I think the LFP batteries should last a full 30 years, possibly more. Still, I think RFBs are the best solution for longer term storage and should be widely deployed to supply power at night when there's no sunshine. Plus the whole world needs a lot of pumped hydro for even longer term storage.

There is a reason for everything. If this tech was kept in the US and was not exported to China, it would probably have been to expensive to develop it fast enough so that it can become a real world marked contender, which is now desperately needed, in the nick of time!

Mass Energy production should not be in private hands or private corporations. It should never be on any stock market. That is all.

As a Californian, the first thing that came to mind when I heard this is a LIQUID battery is EARTHQUAKES. How would these hold up in an earthquake?

The "Big Battery" project near Hawker in SA, Australia, was based around the redox-flow battery technology, but that install is pretty small compared to the one in China.

I'm glad China has developed this technology. The patent system itself is holding ideas up that could contribute to the solutions we need. China seems pragmatic.

I enjoy staying up to date on new energy tech and I applaud you on doing so in an efficient way. Thank you! I hope future content can include how the individual home owner can have its own, stand alone independence. I can appreciate needing large scale applications but if anyone with the means wants to be independent of the grid, the more that do so means less large scale would be needed. I’m ready to see a package plug n play battery, inverter, charge control that hooks to your house with relative ease.

We should share technology more often. Especially if it aids us in not destroying our planet. Bonus points if doesn't happen through bureaucratic mismanagement.

I was thinking how this battery is more of a plumbing system than an electrical system. Curious then if you could put these holding tanks of the electrolyte solutions at some distance from the electrical components. Also considered that installation could be accomplished in tight quarters or otherwise underutilized oddly shaped locations by installing custom shaped tanks, perhaps even bladders confined by simple wood frame boxes. Also, the fact that it is a liquid filled tank means that you would presumably install the tank empty making it very easy to handle and put in difficult locations (like attic spaces) and then fill the tank with a hose and transfer pump from a convenient distance.

So very tired of my tax dollars going everywhere but staying here in the US.

Given how US is blocking export of chips to china, you are encouraging blocking carbon reduction technology to the world? What are your priorities for earth?

At least the Chinese are building it. As an European I don’t really care who does it that much. Build it, people.

I looked into these to power my house a few years ago. unfortunately the up front cost was a issue 30kw $45k AU vs $30k for lithium, but the flow battery did include sma inverters. It took up 1sqare meter and weighed 1.5 tonne. They also told me if in the future I no longer wanted the battery they would buy back the electrolyte

I was told science has no country long time ago, humanity wins at the end. what changed?

I believe ALL energy technologies should be "given away" for free - There is a lot to unpack in the framing here.

That 40kWh fridge-sized option sounds pretty amazing as a home backup so I hope they can sortb out the Lisencing and get that to market.

3:18 “as several patents expired”… So much for the “patents promote innovation” argument

These batteries are awesome, they can be discharged down to zero and back to 100% without any problems. In Australia we have a company called Redflow which makes them for stationary storage. It is crazy that they are not being used more.

Why would that be bad? Sounds all good. patent is nonsense, we all live on this planet and need to create a sustainable world.

Gave away? Is it some kind of charity? If it is not, it is inappropriate to mislead the viewers with such word. The question should be why US didn't invest 300 mil that China has invested in the supply chain.

The short turn around financial model that companies are doing to please their stockholders is a major issue. Honeywell forced its engineers to stop working frequently over the past few years because the end of a quarter was coming, and they wanted to make it look like the goals of minimal hours charged to projects were met. Honeywell paid their engineers to sit around and do nothing for a few weeks.... and then came the layoffs down the road. Its not about good business, innovation, and production. Its about playing some game in the stock markets.

Wait till you see how much money is spent in pharmaceutical research and is then sent overseas.

What I am hearing is another technology that was stuck behind a patent for OVER 30 years and could have had amazing results now if it wasnt patented

So the US spent 15 million researching it before China spent 300 million? They were right about the American supply chain being too broken after decades of sending all the good-paying manufacturing jobs to China for us to be able to supply all the parts to make this, or anything worthwhile in America. You needed to complain back in the 80's.

You just described how most technologies get transferred from Western countries to China.

Hi Matt. I'm a poltiical scientist and I think one of the most ominous developments in recent years has been the US' almost desperate attempt to start a new Cold War with China. The world needs cooperation now more than ever. These kind of technologies should be spread far and wide, not hoarded by any country. It does not really matter who makes these batteries and improves green tech so long as it is widely available. I assume that China's bigger market, lower costs and economies of scale mean it will likely dominate this particular technology at the international level. That is fine with me if that means that these batteries are more affordable to people all over the world. The same goes with any other green tech. As an aside, the US has been putting up obstacles to dealing with climate change for decades. By contrast, China has been trying to develop this tech for a long time. This is not a "winner/loser" story.

This needs to be watched by every member of congress. However, I hope revealing this doesn't get you demonetized. Great job!

On September 20, 2022, the 250,000-kilowatt/1,000,000-kilowatt-hour all-vanadium flow battery energy storage + 1,000,000-kilowatt market-based grid-connected photovoltaic power generation project started construction in Qapqal Xibe Autonomous County, Ili Kazakh Autonomous Prefecture.

So the department of energy (which also handles all nuclear matters including missiles) doesn't have the budget to get the IT support they need? Whaaaat?

Welcome to the club! Here in Australia we’ve been giving away breakthrough inventions for decades! Wifi, solar panels and black box recorders were invented here in Australia and given away to the rest of the world.

Hints of sinophobia in this one - quite distasteful.

85% efficient vs 95% efficient? That sounds like a bit of an important distinction! It certainly is more efficient than compressed air or hydrogen production from water electrolysis but quite a bit less than Lithium. Now with the simplicity of the battery, perhaps the fact that making it in the first place would use so much less energy than lithium battery production that the gap would be inconsequential. Vanadium sounds rare though and hard to get, how is its production at scale vs the alternatives?

You keep saying "gave away" But the articles don't say "gave away"

... this isn't a competition, China using this tech benefits the world. The only issue is any artificial exclusivity

Flow batteries (independent of chemistry) have an important difference from wet and dry cell batteries. They can be turned OFF, meaning there is no voltage difference between the Plus and Minus terminals, even when "fully charged". Just drain the reaction area of electrolyte(s) and they are completely OFF. You can short the terminals. Also, if the charged electrolytes do not degrade on their own when confined to the storage tanks, there is no self-discharge.

Good video. Why does everything have to be a US vs country crap. Life isn't a football game. Someday humanity will outgrow this obsession with competition.

Once I learned that there is a law in US that free energy is forbidden. No licence to get for free energy supplies. An age ago free energy inventors were refugies. No protection Maybe there is still a law like this ..

I would be interested in a similar video on Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry batteries as they are becoming a more prevalent solution.

Green technologies should be shared for the sake of our world environment.

Giving away RFB to China is not a terrible mistake! In fact it's one of the best decisions! Let them have it, and massively cut their pollution in the next few decades. It's good for the entire planet if they do so. And besides, we will get cheaper and improved batteries out of the process.

If a company gives you 83% discount they are definitely overcharging from the start or going belly up..... That is my opinion and thoughts.

Great to see more options than just Lion Batteries. Sad that politicians keep screwing our transition to renewables. 😢 Have you looked at an Australian Company Redflow who do Redox Batteries. I believe they are involved in Grid scale pilot in US. Of course the Australian government has done nothing to help this company. Look forward to all your videos. Thanks 👏👏

The US fell waaay behind in the solar and storage sectors, IMO. We'll be lucky to catch up, but China has that singular will to get things done, so it could be fuitle, but I think we should still be trying to make stuff here as far as our energy needs go..

That 40kWh battery is interesting especially for a household use. I hope this technology gets commercialize to the masses. I didn't even know we already have this advancement in battery technology. This is just impressive.

instead of saying "gave away" how about saying "shared with" This will promote more peace overall.

Don't forget 10% for the Big Guy.

Thanks too everyone over at UNDECIDED for yet ANOTHER AMAZING video i legit have to watch ur videos 3-5 times each just to absorb HALF of what is being presented .... you guys CRUSH ... always have (Matt Solo) and always will (Matt & Team) and thank you to the new producers and WELCOME!

I have read today on pv magazine australia that "Dalian Rongke Power has connected a 100 MW redox flow battery storage system to the grid in Dalian, China. It will start operating in mid-October and will eventually be scaled up to 200 MW. The vanadium redox flow battery technology was developed by a division of the Chinese Academy of Sciences."

An error which is not an error. But I seem to see that a lot more in the US. Seen from a EU citizen perspective, the US is not really a democracy. The US citizens might vote, but when Companies or rich persons are allowed to donate mony to campaign contributions in a scale no ordenary citizens can compete with.; The value of the votes are devaluated to almost nothing. Undermining democracy. In some cases the civil servants or politicians get posting as consultants after the service they have provided. I think this is called grey corruption by "Peron" (KZfaqr). Unfortunately this kind of corruption is widespread, even in EU!

It's not just this type of technology, China was given practically our entire copyright building on all things US made.

Interesting and informative presentation Mr Matt Farrell! The Vanadium Redox Flow battery was invented by Maria Skyllas Kazacos in Australia and developments around the world are advancing the technology all the time. I am sure the Chinese would be flattered (as the Chinese don't respect patents & they actively see it as a compliment if someone copies them) if the US company produces their own vanadium electrolyte in whatever chemical structure Forever Energy want to use. Of course, they could easily contact US Vanadium and use their electrolytes. The requirement for domestic energy storage which is ideal for hot climates and zero fire risk is a huge opportunity. I am surprised even Elon Musk has not got his head around VRFB technology yet. VRFB which is the official name by the way as agreed by Vanitec the association set up by the Vanadium Industry is monitoring the growth of the industry closely. many of the key Vanadium miners and processors as well as the VRFB manufacturers are sharing technology to speed up the rollout of VRFB across the world. Primary vanadium is mined by Glencore in SA, Bushveld Minerals in SA and Largo in Brazil. With many projects planned in Australia as well. The US has few opportunities for primary vanadium and imports most of its vanadium from SA and Brazil. Vanadium is primarily used to strengthen steel as 1 kg per 1 tonne doubles the strength of steel and prevents it from corroding. The long-term duration and lifetime of VRFB installations as well as the fact the vanadium can be reused at the VRFB's end of life add to the VRFB's advantage as part of the circular economy! There are two companies in the US that are developing the use of a modified Vanadium Pentoxide for use in both the anode and cathode of Lithium Ion Battery cells, which is another exciting development for Vanadium in battery cells. If work continues with this technology it could bring portable device cells super fast charging times of less than 8 minutes and a life of 20 years with very slow degradation compared to current lithium-ion tech. Definitely a space to watch. Vanadium is one of those super minerals and is a great investment opportunity for the next generation. Look at Largo LGO NASDAQ, Bushveld BMN.L, Australian Vanadium AVL.ASX and Technology Metals TMT.ASX all growing rapidly but sitting under the radar.

I wonder who was POTUS in 2017 when the DoE had such a lapse in judgement.

Dude, you're killing it! You Content is getting better and better. You got me excited about the future that I'm already excited about! Never stop what you're doing!

Gary Yang was born near Dalian peninsula & coincidentally approaches a company from the same area once he saw the critical technology made in USA.

"Limited budget and inadequate IT system" is really, really close to a death sentence. I think you need to invest money in that department instead of the battery..

Matt, as always very informative. Thanks for all the work behind bring forth the solid content. Are these batteries available in the US (I know they are not produced here, yet) and are they a good solution in a Home based system or is cost, maintenance, etc. put them out of reach.

Simply superb! Concise, clear and comprehensive, like all your content. Thank you, Matt!

There was a toss-away line about compressed air energy storage that leaves me wondering why I'm not hearing more about that.

You mentioned that they are better in warm climates. How do they handle cold climates like Michigan?

I’m not surprised that the U.S. shot itself in the foot but it’s disappointing that we’re not taking advantage of this technology ourselves. Am I wrong in my assumption that VRFBs would likely be more applicable to commercial or grid level storage first than residential uses mainly because of the current costs of these batteries?