understandable

Then i only need to wait for a generation of gpu that can finally do 60 FPS at 4K again with path tracing enabled while dlss 3 and 3.5 turned off before upgrading, thanks for the help.

Hey dude, the instability you noted with pathtracing and with dlss on happened in cyberpunk for me. If you have a 3070, I am asking if you can go to where Vicktor, the ripperdoc's shop is and turn on pathtracing and then also dlss. At 1080p or 1440p I was getting huge amounts of noise and instability on everything. Ghosting was prominent and the characters skin would have that noise you showed on reflective surfaces. Even the hairless cat had like a pink and purple shine to it. Just observe it yourself if you have the older update before 2.0. Its crazy how bad it was. I did end up upgrading to a 4070ti but the issues existed until this update.

Also, awesome video dude! Keep it up!

So RR works with normal RT, why not give it to people with rtx 30xx users who want to play cp2077.

Wait did they solvE that in fort solis? I touht it was a FINAL gather issue. I stopped playing because it was distracing

@@ratharos I fixed GI shimmering with this command "r.Lumen.ScreenProbeGather.TracingOctahedronResolution 16" ( default for highest settings was 8). It's around 20% peformance hit if I remember right. As far as i understood it increases the rays (samples) per pixel. Other way is to use "sg.GlobalIlluminationQuality 4" but the performance hit is way too high to justify it. I used Universal UE5 Unlocker to enable the console but you could probably just write these commands to engine.ini.

I think nvidia already said they are working on a RR plugin for UE5 so probably thats gonna make it easy to replace lumen denoiser with this one

Marketing bs. They don't want to sell us the stronger hardware at reasonable prices. DLSS was supposed to help with incapable hardware or prolong the life of older cards. Now we are right back to upgrading anyways, but instead of hardware we are getting GPUs for these software gimmicks.

@@ionseven Ray Reconstruction is available for all RTX cards, not just the 40-series.

thats why they price it so high, their stuff is superior and works, while amd just now to be introducing frame gen, nvidia had it for a year now, and not just that dlss also far superior to fsr, now with this ray reconstruction ray tracing is not even a battle anymore...

@@NostalgicMem0ries If they can lower the price with such good tech like this, they can gain even more grounds against AMD.

Nvidia is the new Apple. Selling an item known to be superior in Tech for absurd prices. Except Apple hasn't been the leader in Tech for years. Edit: Plus there's the brand name.

​@@linhza501They don't compete with AMD. That chapter ended a long time ago.

At $550, the 4070 is the best single player graphical fidelity focused card on the market except the 4090.

Imagine what DLSS 4 will be like. DLSS as a form of anti aliasing was completely broken 3 years ago.

That is also the reason why they do not do it. If potential customers are able to compare the native resolution with the upscaled they will definitely see that the upscaled version is not as good as Nvidia states. Personally, I'm very disappointed in this trend of using upscale instead of native resolution.😟

@@KUZY2X Do you understand how hard path tracing is to run? A 4090 can struggle to do path tracing in CP2077 without DLSS at any resolution. You would probably be hard pressed to even reach 60 at 1080p. GPU hardware is starting to hit a standstill, to get more power they are having to pump more power into the cards. Yes they might be able to squeeze more power without increasing power consumption but there will eventually come a time where they cannot make a card anymore powerful without cranking power limits higher. Moore's Law may be obsolete by 2036. Path Tracing is so insanely computationally intensive that it's a damn miracle that we can even do it in a real time. You want real time reflections & light behaving realistically then you have to put up with using upscaling tech like DLSS as it is simply unfeasible without it. Movies studios use farms of top end GPU's to render a single screen of animated films and even that can take fucking hours upon hours (Mind you they do this at high resolutions but still). DLSS is a fucking wonder of a tech, it can give you almost native quality of image while increasing your frames and unless you go looking for issues you will never really be able to tell the difference. It's working smarter rather than harder. Throwing tons of power at the problem is the only way you could ever do native resolution with path tracing, it's the brute force method. If you don't want path tracing or ray tracing in your game then cool stick with Rasterization that will inevitably hit a stand still of graphical quality, the argument of well Rasterization looks fine right now is a dumb one when you realise rasterization will never be able to achieve real lighting or proper reflections and don't say anything like well we have Lumen. Lumen is ray tracing, it's software RT. RT & PT is the future of gaming and it is pretty much impossible to achieve with native resolution because they are so demanding that hardware has to work smarter to keep up with it rather than brute forcing it's way to playable FPS. However currently developers are using the tech to forgo optimizing games but as with everything people do sometimes use it poorly but that doesn't make that tech bad. Nanite doesn't mean developers shouldn't optimize raw meshes and the way Unreal said that developers could just put in a mesh easy with nanite gave the entirely wrong perception, after all you don't need insane polycounts on simple items. Nanite also needs to be able to smartly reduce and increase polycount based on the user's FPS. You should be able to give it a low end and high end of polycount for a item so developers can control the limit of the items lowest poly count. These techs are still in the infant stages and lots can be done to improve on them, they will only get better with time. Dynamic LOD's and RT/PT are the future.

"Photonic computing or bust"

Not knowledgeable on the in-depth constraints there, but architecture optimization could become the next holy grail now that its becoming harder and harder to just get brute force improvement through smaller process manufacturing and higher transistor density. We're at that ugly middle point between the competition of traditional rasterization hardware and raytracing hardware on the same die, and ray tracing may slowly but surely phase out or switch places with rasterization to become the dominant hardware components on the die, resulting in further growth independent of Moore's Law. Really excited to see how the developments go though, it's astonishing seeing how far things have come in just the last 5 years!

and how far into the future do you think it will be popular? what makes you think there won't be something better by then?

It's a waste of time to ''believe'' in these sort of stuff.

Marketing bs. They don't want to sell us the stronger hardware at reasonable prices. DLSS was supposed to help with incapable hardware or prolong the life of older cards. Now we are right back to upgrading anyways, but instead of hardware we are getting GPUs for these software gimmicks.

Their own fork probably.

It is not possible to use the upsampling techs , DLSS/FSR/XESS, simultaneously during the rendering process.

"Flagship in 5 years" gang stand up!

in 5 years you would afford a RTX 6050 and will be the same xd

That you will have the pleasure of using once you buy a NEW graphics card. Lol. I dunno how long they can keep this grift going, but by god jensen is damn sure going to find out.

​@Pwnag3Inc You mean like how Reflex is usable on 9 year old cards? How DLSS 3.5 is usable on Turing cards, despite it just having come out?

RR is based on algorithms provided and trained by nvidia themselves so it can only improve over time with better and more refinded training of the model used by the ai tensors

​@@Pwnag3Inc when we are all back to 1080P 60 for path tracing, in 5 year, it will be time for cosmic ray tracing, as light obviously depends on the refraction of atmosphere and light bouncing off of planet to enlighten the earth in indirect light, bringing you back to 720p 30 FPS with a RXTX 7090 ti

​@@TigerheartyYou aren't forced to use it, the game looks good on raster and you can get 200fps

Also high frequency high contrast detail tends to produce interference patterns even when static.

You are either very mistaken or missed some words, namely "in it's deployed form" from that first point. Ray tracing isn't inherently unstable and isn't limited by rays because of raytracing itself but rather because current hardware doesn't allow for faster calculations that would make more rays and bounces possible yet. What's so beautiful about raytracing though is that it perfectly scales with core counts since you can just average the areas which is basically what the denoiser is doing already. That means raytracing is a very scalable technology in its core and will get better quickly after a certain threshold of rays and bounces has been reached. Currently we are still so low on them, that changes in the demoise algorithm will show much quicker no matter if we can add a bounce more/get 2x the rays or not. When we achieve 4x-8x more we might get into a territory where the denoise algorithm will have to do a lot less guesswork and the static image will appear stable no matter what. Considering the tech, this will be sooner rather than later.

It increases the sharpness

Yes. DLSS is significantly better than FSR in every way. At this point I think it is really a selling point.

Absolutely. Frame gen on the 4000 series cards is amazing too

its one of the only real reasons to buy nvidia over amd right now, so yes it makes it more worth the price. but if you mostly play multiplayer games or dont particularly like upscaling then you'll get more out of a 7800xt right now. higher end nvidia cards also run insanely better than AMD when raytracing (i'd say 4070 is a good starting point for raytracing, lower than that and performance won't be great)

It depends, at 4K there a tie but at 1440p and 1080p, dlss wins hands down, however if you have the RT power and your running at 1440 p.m. 1080p, then dlss looks worse than native

So. As I'm someone that's content with a 24'' monitor and would never even think about going above 1080p DLSS isn't that big a deal? EDIT: Nvm that statement, the reason I'm building a new rig that can play more than Quake 3 and Tekken is because I want to play upcoming simracers, an ultrawide will probably tag along the new PC.

yeah it should

Nvidia sent it to me. I don't know if there is a public download. It's called Ramen Shop.

Usually nvidia will releass their tech demo later.

It uses Nvidia's own direct Illumination combined with Lumen global illumination. So it's not exactly full path tracing, but still requires denoising.

Not just DLSS but denoising in general. Quake 2 rtx does this woth no DLSS

I don't see any DLSS, I only see one RT feature, for path tracing.

Idk XESS in the short +-2yrs its been out, is better than current FSR. And is on par with DLSS 2. Not to mention, Intel is busy with drivers. If Intel were to make XESS2, either for arc or battlemage, it most likely be on par with DLSS3.1 as they have been working on a RR equivalent

Intel has a chance, they've been investing a ton in ML and RT from the start. AMD has no chance, they've been coasting on their console contracts and are now hopelessly stuck in the past when it comes to technology.

Next big thing to release is NTC. Because of how much Nv is blamed for putting less Vram. Dlss4 is not yet even rumored

​@@PhilosophicalSockNeural Texture Compression?

@@Z3t487 yep. might be another game changer for Nv (if it really works as expected)

Good luck with your 12GB VRAM and Path Tracing + RR at 1440p, 8GB not enough for a 3060ti run path Tracing + RR 1080p High/medium DLSS Balanced, It micro stutters at 40 fps.

some ppl just get used to 30-40 fps, dunno how they do it but they do.

Absolutely, but its not the console itselfs, its the way economy works. Game studios are all aiming to gain as much as possible by targetting primarely consoles, because most sales comes from there. Imagine a world where game studios would focus only on PC optimization and development. The level of fidelity and performance would be unreal, pretty much movie like.

*AMD APUs you mean. It isn't a law of nature that consoles have to use AMD.

Always has been.

@@Wobbothe3rdno, it’s always the consoles holding everything back. Whether it’s amd or not doesn’t make a difference.

You expect average people to buy rtx 4090. Its inexperienced dev who still dont know how to fully utilize the console resource that is holding back.

Yes, great they put the AI cores to work now. 3 gens later, and then giving themselves a pat on the shoulder. I find it amusing. Anyways I´m more curious about why is the RR ON\OFF tied directly to DLSS? Can´t it be done separetley? And can´t it be ran on other HW than Nvidias? Also if the RR needs 5x the resources from Nvidia , isn´t it more tangible for them in the FUTURE to just abandon the project just to to use computing power on their servers to crunch our personal info for profit? I mean first it was all about RT will be super easy to implement- just script the ON\OFF toggle in. But now we have RR which requires 5x the computing power from devs\HW vendor and then the result isn´t perfect still... I´m still waiting to see what the future brings us.

@WbosonLP inventing graphics uses for ai and then successfully training the models to provide the desired result takes time. Also stop giving them supervillian ideas!!!!! I think you might be misinterpreting what nvidia said about 4x longer than dlss though. These are two different pipeline, one of which (cuda cores) takes a lot more render time than the other (tensor cores) DLSS /tensor cores werent doing anything raytracing related before, besides standard non tensor data type use, for data types the cuda cores don't have (cuda cores only have fp32 and int32) so the original time for raytracing involved stuff on the tensor cores was basically 0. The calculations and intersections were done on the raytrace cores, and the denoisers were run on the cuda cores, after dlss created a 4k image. They kinda fought each other. Ray reconstruction removes denoising from the cuda cores, and puts ai 'denoising' as part of the dlss pipeline on the tensor cores. Because thats basically what it's doing now, dlss for raytracing, except instead of ai reconstructing a normal looking low res image like dlss, it's ai reconstructing that weird 'ray trace view' which looks like it is just a bunch of dots. It's ai making new dots without any new rays needing to be calculated, and removing dots it thinks are bad results, based on its trained ai model, and the image dlss reconstructed from the low res render. Thats what makes dlss take 4 times longer now. But it's on the tensor cores, which are 8x, 16x, and 32x faster than cuda cores for this kind of work, and which can do most of their work side by side and independant of the cuda cores. Currently ray reconstruction adds no time, or gets time back over cuda core denoisers, or in few cases like rtx overdrive, barely takes away like a frame or two. Which...honestly... isn't really adding up. This is a win win for tensor and cuda cores, it should always get performance back, if it just involves those two. so that makes me think the difference thats taking up more time is in the ray trace cores. I wonder if they are taking on a larger load than before turning on rr in overdrive because the rest of the pipeline got faster, so they figured why not.

@@Nobody-sp7ug thanks for the thorough answer. I´m not arguing that figuring out some techniques might take shorter or longer periods of time. I´m just pointing out the how PR team is putting always things out as they please. Also I don´t talk about 5x time needed in GPU but this: "Trained with 5X more data than DLSS 3, DLSS 3.5 recognizes different ray-traced effects to make smarter decisions about using temporal and spatial data, and to retain high frequency information for superior-quality upscaling." 5x more data wouldn´t mean 5x more resources in $ or time, but still 2-3x more? So atm they came out with the DEMO and it´s still not perfect. But how it should work in future? Instead of making the life of devs "easier" by introducing RR they will be just charging $$ for RR data? To me it seems devs have to use resources anyway in the end...

@@WbosonLP Ah. I've trained myself to be prdeaf lol. So what younare talking about "trained with 5x more data" is kinda prspeak, you're sniffer is definitely smelling some bs, but its not completely bs. Always keep an eye out for words like trained. When you see that, the context has shifted off whatever the hardware or software related to playing games is, and to nvidias office and their supercomputers. So the ai model they are training on their supercomputers, which nobody plays games on, they used 5x more data to train the ray reconstruction model for dlss 3.5. This doesn't directly mean anything for any hardware games would be played on. It results in the ai model spitting out a better and perhaps larger 'guide' for the game playing hardware to follow. Nvidia COULD sell their ai models, but that would be FANTASTIC for pretty much everybody but nvidia in the long run. Nvidia having a monopoly on the by far most advanced ai models and keeping the secret recipe to themselves is definitely more lucrative for them.

* side

Personally, I would scoop the cheap 7700x/7900x bundle from Microcenter and then upgrade to Zen5 when it eventually comes out if you feel the need to upgrade.

Get the 7800X3D FOR SURE if you want to use it for gaming!

80% of recent-ish games (especially VR games like VR Chat and Onward if you're into that) have been treateing the extra L3 cache like water. Plus cyberpunk is jist now finally getting an update to utilize 8 cores in a CPU, step ahead most games but you'll most definitely be GPU limited before you get to that level. Games like starfield perfer Intel still but if you need/want an AM5 socket CPU (should definitely last you a few generations), 1000% get the 7800x3d

@@jjlw2378 lol what's the point of your upgrade? 7800x3D already has performance of regular zen5, though zen5x3D will outperform it ofc

Go for the 7800X3D if you're primarily gaming

Dude everybody knows the quality of your egg rendering can make or break a game.

@@mojojojo6292 🖖😁

so no one else cares?

Pay more for fake frames so that devs have less work to do.

In objects always look better

Not frame gen. Ray Reconstruction.

Native still doesn’t have nearly enough rays to avoid needing a denoiser, so RR will look better but that means you have to use dlss. The best quality would be if they make RR work with DLAA (native resolution DLSS) but they haven’t yet.

Nvidia recently said the opposite, in a DF interview that the future is not just bigger and more powerful GPUs so being stupid and wasteful with rendering, the future is smart rendering using AI to be as efficient as possible.

@@micb3rd I watched that interview; I'm not suggesting AI postprocessing will fall away, however I will assert that it's absolutely inevitable that hardware will become more powerful even if you use current efficiency levels as a baseline. We haven't hit a hardware ceiling yet and AI post-processing isn't going to create one.. AI rescaling is essentially an ingenious hack to create playable framerates and while Nvidia is justifiably proud of RR, you can bet your sunday best they wish realtime deterministic multi-bounce multi-ray per-pixel RT was a reality using hardware resources only. Having to train your algorithm on expensive supercomputer time for every game release isn't particularly efficient but they'll do it for CP2077 because it's their killer app showcase.

I guess AMD would look worse because they don’t have any cards that can ray trace this fast so temporal artifacts would be worse with more time between frames. Assuming the same RT processing power they should just look the same if it’s just the same directx or vulkan api.

RT+RR NATIVE (2fps) > DLSS+RT+RR (10FPS)=NATIV NO RT (80FPS) > DLSS Q Only Framequality, NOT smoothness

As AI rendering matures, brute force rendering of pixels will fall further and further behind in image quality and speed. DLSS and its competitors are going to improve much faster than better hardware will become available so the old way of rendering every pixel will just become more impossible and less desirable as time goes on.