Until Dawn - Story Explained

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Gaming Harry

Gaming Harry

Күн бұрын

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PATREON - / gamingharryyt
Hello everyone, and welcome to a video where I explain the story behind Until Dawn. This game was incredible and was tense from start to finish. For a game this to have such deep lore is awesome. Really enjoyed putting this one together!
DISCORD - / discord
Watch my Until Dawn Let's Play HERE; • Until Dawn
Intro: 0:00 - 0:17
Plot: 0:17 - 5:12
The Cree: 5:12 - 6:13
The Wendigo: 6:13 - 7:32
1952/The Miners: 7:32 - 10:57
The Stranger: 10:57 - 14:13
The Washington Family: 14:13 - 15:05
Hannah Washington: 15:05 - 17:38
Joshua Washington: 17:38 - 19:47
Victor Milgram: 19:47 - 21:50
Please enjoy, subscribe, and leave a like/comment!
Check out some of my other content:
VISAGE - • Visage
STORIES UNTOLD - • Stories Untold
SIMULACRA - • Simulacra
LITTLE NIGHTMARES 2 - • Little Nightmares 2
LITTLE HOPE - • Little Hope
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Equipment;
Elgato HD60S+ Game Capture Card (used w/ OBS Studio)
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Audio Technica AT2020 Cardoid Condenser Microphone
Focusrite Scarlett Solo Audio Interface
SONY A6000 for FaceCam w/ Elgato CamLink 4k
Adobe Premiere Pro (for Editing)
#GamingHarry #LoreAndOrder #UntilDawnLore

Пікірлер: 1 100
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for all your support and your love for these videos! I love making them! Days Gone is coming soon, but as you can imagine, it's a HUUUUUGE task ❤ ALSO JOIN THE DISCORD THANKS 😊 discord.gg/3CCYgv3J
@renamon5658
@renamon5658 2 жыл бұрын
I love how says gone is in the same universe as syphon filter
@cassiopeia2829
@cassiopeia2829 2 жыл бұрын
Congrats on giving this Game some facts and plot I needed just 3 days to complete the Game actually 😂I loved it
@ujjalpodder9636
@ujjalpodder9636 2 жыл бұрын
Also..who does kill Matt? Wendigos? If wendigos then why will the pin him instead of simply chopping off his head..
@BetaBreaking
@BetaBreaking 2 жыл бұрын
Being half Cree myself and from Alberta, I was so enthralled by this game when it came out. Seeing the combination of horror with indigenous folklore to make an interactive story was a brilliant idea. Loved basically choosing what kind of horror story you wanted to play out. Either having all the characters be dumbasses or sensible was way too much fun. Great video!
@Oriana_leung
@Oriana_leung Жыл бұрын
12:00 Like your comment on the death of the Stranger. Personality. x).
@salazar556
@salazar556 2 жыл бұрын
Josh is such a tragic character, tbh. I loved how he was the only character that never got a happy ending. It only makes his story sadder. He either dies at the hands of his sister or he becomes a monster just like her.
@valhatan3907
@valhatan3907 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I have sympathy for him
@joshuagraham2843
@joshuagraham2843 2 жыл бұрын
josh’s friends are horrible people but i love watching them getting killed
@leeisloveleeislife5074
@leeisloveleeislife5074 2 жыл бұрын
@Jake from state farm Well, if it wasn't for those fuckin wendigos, none of that would have happened)
@holacom363
@holacom363 2 жыл бұрын
i still dont know why josh or matt was killed in my playthrough tho lol
@forky_fork275
@forky_fork275 2 жыл бұрын
@@holacom363 josh always dies, but what did you do to get Matt killed 😭
@Lynxee3004
@Lynxee3004 2 жыл бұрын
Jesus Christ... The fact that Hannah's love for Mike was so strong that she could become an alpha wendigo with insatiable hunger for cannibalism, and still not want to hurt him, just shows how deep the wounds went.
@courtneygardner6334
@courtneygardner6334 2 жыл бұрын
powers of a chad
@ejs7861
@ejs7861 2 жыл бұрын
Yandere wendigo~
@MajorOctofuss
@MajorOctofuss 2 жыл бұрын
Me when he text first
@synshenron798
@synshenron798 2 жыл бұрын
So what really happened was there was a sort of alpha wendigo called the Machupichu. The stranger with the flamethrower killed it because it cause hannah and Beth’s deaths. So that spirit possed hannah
@syra1541
@syra1541 2 жыл бұрын
@@ejs7861 PLEASEEEE AHAHHAHA
@permeus2nd
@permeus2nd 2 жыл бұрын
17:34 Hannah only turns hostile after Jess starts shouting about sleeping with Mike, before that she is just trying to discourage them, add that to the fact that she carry’s off josh if he says her name and ied say that there been some residue of the person they were before remains. It’s believed that love is the strongest human emotion and the flip side of love is jealousy I think this is what we see here, love for Mike and her brother and jealousy of Jess for having what Hannah never had.
@papitoquerido7827
@papitoquerido7827 2 жыл бұрын
Very well put 👏
@fireandsugar2625
@fireandsugar2625 2 жыл бұрын
Jealousy isnt the flip side of love.
@the_westeast_productions
@the_westeast_productions 2 жыл бұрын
If mike and em werent dating the entire game probalby would have never happened
@rileyjones.
@rileyjones. 2 жыл бұрын
@@fireandsugar2625 don't ruin it, shut up
@fireandsugar2625
@fireandsugar2625 2 жыл бұрын
@@rileyjones. Someone can't handle the truth. And you can shut up yourself and go find Arthur's jelly beans.
@schulteq
@schulteq 8 ай бұрын
I feel bad for their parents, they lost all 3 of their kids to that mountain
@alexbork4250
@alexbork4250 2 ай бұрын
It's weird that they didn't sell this place after losing 2 daughters
@oprahscoochie416
@oprahscoochie416 15 күн бұрын
@@alexbork4250they’re rich so it wasn’t a priority. I’m sure Josh probably pushed his parents not to sell or they were too busy grieving they didn’t want to go back.
@alexbork4250
@alexbork4250 15 күн бұрын
@@oprahscoochie416 it's not about money, it's about possession of gruesome place that reminds tragedy
@siegfriedo
@siegfriedo 2 жыл бұрын
This game is a timeless masterpiece. Undoubtedly the best interactive cinematic story game to date.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
I agree!
@ADixxx17
@ADixxx17 2 жыл бұрын
What about Life is Strange ?
@themighteefox
@themighteefox 2 жыл бұрын
@@ADixxx17 (Careful, Spoilers ahaed!) Though I do agree, that LiS is an amazing game, I would actually put Until Dawn above it. Besides the really weird conversations i.e. with Warren or cringy comments from people like Victoria, LiS ultimate downfall is their last choice. That last choice completely destroyes the idea of "your decisions matter" Either everyone in town is dead or Chloe is. In the end the only choice that actually matters is the last one. Sure the journey to this point can look quite different. But in the case of Until Dawn it actually affects the outcome of the game. Sure...you have all those quicktime events that can affect the outcome too, if you don't hit them and so on, but either you end up with everyone dead, just one or two alive, with everyone alive and so on. And for some characters there are a lot of chances to die, which can also change the course of the game. So yeah...I'd say Until Dawn did it better, though I do think both games are quite different and are really amazing by themselves. :)
@ADixxx17
@ADixxx17 2 жыл бұрын
@@themighteefox yeah man you re right. Until dawn is great in many ways… i love that dark strange vibe that none of the other games have. I can say without doubts its best horror game ever made… But story in LiS is fkn masterpiece for me ( that one when Chloe dies ). That end hits me right into feels like none game, series or movie ever can. So for me Its LiS but Until dawn is masterpiece too 🙏 sry for my english 😅
@alltimegamer1343
@alltimegamer1343 2 жыл бұрын
Detroit Become Human is way better.... but that's just my opinion
@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache
@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache 2 жыл бұрын
I feel like this game was truly the peak for Supermassive Games, this is truly a well written masterpiece. I love how well you explained the historical aspects of the cree.
@coreyboi873
@coreyboi873 2 жыл бұрын
Yes you are right, also how tf do you teleport throughout KZfaq?
@Chocobobob
@Chocobobob 2 жыл бұрын
The new one that came out “House of Ashes” is really good … the best since Until Dawn
@eouroshopper4423
@eouroshopper4423 2 жыл бұрын
I feel like your comment was truly the peak for unnecessary and unfunny comments on KZfaq.
@Starfruit-fq7wj
@Starfruit-fq7wj 2 жыл бұрын
@@coreyboi873 exactly
@coreyboi873
@coreyboi873 2 жыл бұрын
@@Starfruit-fq7wj thanks
@stephenallman2484
@stephenallman2484 2 жыл бұрын
Wendigoing gets tough, the tough get going.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
10/10
@shioriryukaze
@shioriryukaze 2 жыл бұрын
YEAAAAAAAA!!!!!!😎😎😎😎😎
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 7 ай бұрын
Hungry, Hangry, Wendigo
@spenserfarman3045
@spenserfarman3045 2 жыл бұрын
I want to believe that Hannah was trying to protect the gang and resist her instincts as a wendigo at the same time, but it could’ve also been possible that she knew that those other wendigos were planning to eat the gang and didn’t want any competition for food.
@Yuukichan1888
@Yuukichan1888 2 жыл бұрын
I've always sympathized with Josh as psychosis is no joke it as a sufferer myself it distances us from reality and often torments us with our fears and inadequacies. What most don't understand is that it is our reality we can't tell it from whats actually there.
@tooth656
@tooth656 2 жыл бұрын
I'm so sorry you have to go through that. You're very strong, and I hope that things will ease up for you.
@monsterhanna6691
@monsterhanna6691 2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry you have to live with that and I hope things are going well for you--you got this! 👏--but I'm sure you wouldn't go as far as Josh did with his "prank" toward people who didn't mean to kill his sisters.
@Yuukichan1888
@Yuukichan1888 2 жыл бұрын
@@monsterhanna6691 don't worry I'm getting the help I need
@hyhena-gaming9986
@hyhena-gaming9986 2 жыл бұрын
@@monsterhanna6691 aside from the sawblade I was kinda okay with that revenged, sure I also would trust pranks but yeah, if my family was killed by a prank, you bet I’m going saw prank on their asses, and I just have anger management issues
@monsterhanna6691
@monsterhanna6691 2 жыл бұрын
@@hyhena-gaming9986 But the problem is that they didn't cause their deaths and were trying to be there for him.
@michaelj1729
@michaelj1729 2 жыл бұрын
This game was sooooo star studded and well written. Sad to see, Man of Medan and Little Hope didnt live up to the expectation.
@morningmimosa0348
@morningmimosa0348 2 жыл бұрын
Hopefully house of ashes steps up
@shannonfoley8515
@shannonfoley8515 2 жыл бұрын
I liked man of Medan but the twist in little hope was silly and disappointing.
@TheHalloweenSpirit
@TheHalloweenSpirit 2 жыл бұрын
True, the Dark Pictures Anthology is very very disappointing I hope Supermassive Games can make an Until Dawn sequel with more focus in the story, characters and choices
@morningmimosa0348
@morningmimosa0348 2 жыл бұрын
@@TheHalloweenSpirit don’t get me wrong I still enjoyed the anthology just because of the mechanics and how the game works and I think they improved the choices like in man of Medan different actions would lead to different events happening but until dawn you play it and see the same thing every time and same with little hope
@salazar556
@salazar556 2 жыл бұрын
I liked Little Hope but not Man of Medan. Little Hope had a good psychological aspect. It kind of reminded me of the segment where Josh was having hallucinations.
@renamon5658
@renamon5658 2 жыл бұрын
It's sad that josh's dr prescribed the wrong meds for him.
@LuxuryGaming_
@LuxuryGaming_ 9 ай бұрын
what do u mean, which med did he prescribe??
@renamon5658
@renamon5658 9 ай бұрын
@@LuxuryGaming_ the dr hill gave him meds for depression. But josh had schizophrenia. The meds did nothing for him. Only made him worst
@theducktdm536
@theducktdm536 Жыл бұрын
Josh's story is so depressing to me. He is clearly not right in the head, and there are clues around the game that hint at him not recieving the right medication he neededbecause the doctors missjudged him. He doesnt get a happy ending either, as the only character. Either he dies, or becomes a monster.
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 7 ай бұрын
Being a Wendigo isn't that bad
@cryinginmyroom
@cryinginmyroom 4 ай бұрын
@@TheFluffyWendigoare you a wendigo?
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 4 ай бұрын
@@cryinginmyroomMaybe...
@damianranew9214
@damianranew9214 2 жыл бұрын
I think Hannah tries protecting them cause her wendigo brain is saying "eat them" while her normal mind is saying "not" which could merge them together with the idea of "there my friends, so why shouldn't I eat them?"
@aliciamckenzie7979
@aliciamckenzie7979 Жыл бұрын
That’s why at the end one of the miner wendigos tries to go for Sam Hannah leaps onto them to save Sam as Sam was her best friend
@butercumdribbleiii8033
@butercumdribbleiii8033 Жыл бұрын
I no see it as an alpha claiming it’s food. In the wild a alpha wolf can and will kill a beta if they try and eat before the alpha is full. Or it’s probably all instincts like since they only see when things move it’s most likely attacking anything that’s moving?
@DirtySoulsTV
@DirtySoulsTV Жыл бұрын
"They're my friends, which means they're my kill"
@RevanReborn3950BBY
@RevanReborn3950BBY 6 ай бұрын
@@butercumdribbleiii8033the author of that concept disproved it himself. Alpha wolves aren’t a thing. Have a nice day
@Emiomarti
@Emiomarti 6 ай бұрын
​@RevanReborn3950BBY it's not exactly Alpha and beta kind of situation, but because wolfs hunt together, they see each others feats, and the best hunter of course earns the most respect, and of course what this guy said can happen if a less successful wolf tries to claim the food before the respected one.
@rCheekygeeks4365
@rCheekygeeks4365 Жыл бұрын
Something that I noticed with this is that the miner wendigos had more marks and looked more aged. As opposed to Hannah when she became a wendigo, her skin looked younger and almost smoother than the others
@kiachaotic6554
@kiachaotic6554 9 ай бұрын
The miners were turned into wendigos around the 50’s so they’ve been sitting there for over 80 years while Hanna was a wendigo for just a year.
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 7 ай бұрын
Its almost like the miners were older than Hannah who was a teenager. Weird how that works?
@blahblahblahblah729
@blahblahblahblah729 4 ай бұрын
​@@TheFluffyWendigo Yeah, but it is cool that her youthness transfered to her Wendigo form, they could very well not have paid attention to these details and just made every Wendigo with the same skin texture. Just shows how the team working was detail-oriented and worked hard.
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 4 ай бұрын
@@blahblahblahblah729I'm hoping they make a sequel with the idea of saving Josh but your game file determines the story like in Mass Effect.
@MacCormickCave
@MacCormickCave 2 жыл бұрын
*I think 'Until Dawn' is one of the best horror games ever made. It managed to meet all my expectations, something that future games like 'Man of Medan' and 'Little Hope' could not. Not that it's bad games, but the plot twist of "it's all in your head", not very pleased... Since Until Dawn the danger is real, the creatures are real, based on a real legend, and the scenarios, that makes the game pretty scary. Well, the developers could have released more DLCs around this game... Like, for example, a more detailed story of the character 'Jack Fiddler', the "Stranger".*
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, Until Dawn (after playing MoM and LH), did seem miles above in terms of storytelling and horror vs reality
@Musicanimedork01
@Musicanimedork01 2 жыл бұрын
Completely agree. MoM and LH try to have a complex, multilayered story; but once you pull back the curtain, a conclusion like "they were all hallucinating!" or "it was all in his head!" Just arent satisfying. Until Dawn had far more elements at play, and it handled them better than any of its successors.
@gingergamer3270
@gingergamer3270 2 жыл бұрын
It is really scary, genuinely, I love it
@reesechisholm4915
@reesechisholm4915 2 жыл бұрын
Check out House of Ashes!
@jazzcl7
@jazzcl7 2 жыл бұрын
Not to mention that it has a great plot twist of the wendigos being the danger instead of the typical psycho from horror movies.
@LoveyDovey9000
@LoveyDovey9000 2 жыл бұрын
I really like how detailed and historical you went with this game story
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed!
@jenh101
@jenh101 2 жыл бұрын
This is brilliant!!! Considering how this game works (the butterfly effect etc) a video explaining the story could have been all over the place, but this is clear, explains the story well (with enough detail) without going off in all directions and is engaging to watch in its own right! Excellent work!
@user-so9tv8dz4c
@user-so9tv8dz4c 2 жыл бұрын
The butterfly effect is basically a whole lie. There's only like 3 endings, and then the amountof characterswho are alive for those endings,but they all play out the same. Same thing goes for Detroit becomes human. It has a butterfly effect but a false one,where choice has very little impact
@vectorfox4782
@vectorfox4782 2 жыл бұрын
@@user-so9tv8dz4c does that apply to the new game as well?
@desirae1986
@desirae1986 2 жыл бұрын
@@vectorfox4782 If you’re talking about the dark picture series I would say there’s a lot more decision making and outcomes that can happen, and it’s way easier to accidentally get someone killed. I think all of the games kind of end in the same premise but different situations happen depending on who’s alive.
@vectorfox4782
@vectorfox4782 2 жыл бұрын
@@desirae1986 thank you
@chipsnfish7716
@chipsnfish7716 2 жыл бұрын
This story was somewhat of a typical Horror Movie you probably saw in the 90s. It was an awesome Idea to turn this typical movie into a game, fells much more engaging and entertaining
@unclesam7150
@unclesam7150 2 жыл бұрын
i'm glad after all these years people still making videos about this game! thank you.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoy it!
@sir_donuts8742
@sir_donuts8742 2 жыл бұрын
Fr saw this vid recommended and was like damn they still making videos on this game. Was a great game and brings back good memories
@unclesam7150
@unclesam7150 2 жыл бұрын
@@sir_donuts8742 yes and glad they made other games like man of medan , little hope and house of ashes but until dawn was something else tbh
@jazzcl7
@jazzcl7 2 жыл бұрын
same honestly
@lanakat
@lanakat 2 жыл бұрын
same still obsessed with it
@gingergamer3270
@gingergamer3270 2 жыл бұрын
I always thought the miners became wendigo while trapped in the mines and never escaped and the members of the sanitorium went crazy and became wendigo because of the curse. I didn't know the miners were rescued before they turned and were taken to the sanitorium.
@bigskullnobrain6303
@bigskullnobrain6303 2 жыл бұрын
From what I've gathered most maybe all of the sanitarium victims were the miners who resorted to canibilsim and Jack (flamethrower guy) trapped them there In order to not release the spirits
@bigjohnstudd6868
@bigjohnstudd6868 Жыл бұрын
The first time I played this game I thought most of the original 30 miners turned into Wendigos just some turned in the mine and others in the sanitorium. Took me a couple of times playing to realize it was only the 12 that were rescued that turned and the reason they survived fit as a fiddle is because they killed the other 18 and fed off their carcasses then lied about finding the “emergency supply” of food.
@kindiz
@kindiz 2 жыл бұрын
This game is a pure masterpiece. I went in blind, had never heard of the game before, took a chance, and it is to this day my absolute best gaming experience ever.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
It really is a great game!
@lordcuddlebuttz3336
@lordcuddlebuttz3336 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I actually live in Calgary Alberta, Canada and there are still many Indigenous Cree people here that practice their traditional Spiritual beliefs and they take the Wendigo very seriously. One of my old friends was born in the Enoch Cree Nation up north of Edmonton and he told me when he was growing up there that his Grandfather who was a Healer or Shaman would always tell him not to go out in the woods after sunset. His Grandfather also told him if he was in the woods alone and he heard someone calling out his name, he was to immediately run home as fast as he could and not follow the voice deeper in the woods.
@atrociousalien
@atrociousalien 2 жыл бұрын
Nice to hear from a fellow Calgarian
@rifleshooterchannel208
@rifleshooterchannel208 2 жыл бұрын
If part of a culture is to take fictional creatures "very seriously" that "culture" is a joke.
@mariec6601
@mariec6601 Жыл бұрын
I'm Cree and from Enoch, but I don't live on the reserve
@Im_alivexx
@Im_alivexx 2 жыл бұрын
I feel like when Hannah became the Wendigo and she went after the ones who pranked her and that’s she’s somehow still in there even though she’s a wendigo and when she grabbed Josh and screamed you can hear “Josh help” and when she kills Chris you can hear “help”. But this is my theory
@freshbrewedasmr3378
@freshbrewedasmr3378 2 жыл бұрын
It’s so sad
@awesomegirl5190
@awesomegirl5190 2 жыл бұрын
Poor Hannah
@monsterhanna6691
@monsterhanna6691 2 жыл бұрын
I never noticed that before! Justice for my girl, Hannah. 😭💔
@beautywithin7065
@beautywithin7065 Жыл бұрын
Omg no you're actually right..maan this is darn sad straight up
@lanasultraviolence
@lanasultraviolence 2 жыл бұрын
Very glad this series fandom is still alive! Anyways, I’d like to add onto the “Hannah retains her humanity theory” We can tell this because the arguable “main architects” of the group: Emily and Jess, both die in a fitting way. Jessica’s loud mouth which made her spit out the plan, and Emily’s judging eyes which criticized Hannah are gouged out.
@Trunkalunx
@Trunkalunx 2 жыл бұрын
I wish there was a way to save the stranger, Jack Fiddler. Like when you’re told, “Don’t Move,” at the part where Chris & Jack are about to head back to the cabin when they discover that Josh is gone, if you actually stay still, then Jack survives. I just hate it when cool characters die. P.S. I don’t think Jack’s death was THAT easily avoidable. I mean, wendigos are fast creatures, after all. Also, the “stupid teenagers,” as you put them, did the best they could to help.
@combinecommando001
@combinecommando001 2 жыл бұрын
It would also help avoid the whole debacle if Emily gets bitten in the mines. With him telling Ashley to calm the fuck down and that bites do nothing, as they're not zombies from hollywood movies.
@wizkid3643
@wizkid3643 2 жыл бұрын
If you think about it though there had to be at least one guaranteed body so that if the players saves everyone Josh still has someone to eat at the end of the game
@wizkid3643
@wizkid3643 2 жыл бұрын
@@patches2155 I wouldn't really consider that punishment
@smaragdchaos
@smaragdchaos 2 жыл бұрын
Jack Fiddler's death was necessary for plot reasons, since Josh was intended to have a tragic ending - he either has his head crushed by Handigo, or he is left stranded in the mine and can only survive by consuming corpses. If the player saves everybody, then the only corpse to feed on is Jack Fiddler. If Jack Fiddler could be saved, Josh would starve to death. Maybe it was to bait a potential sequel, but who knows
@infectedpotato117
@infectedpotato117 Жыл бұрын
either way, jack was done dirty. they could have had another person die for josh to eat, or he could have even eaten beths head or something idk lol JUST NOT MY BOY JACK FIDDLER
@xarijackson
@xarijackson 2 жыл бұрын
This is such a great video. I watched several KZfaqrs play this game and this video made me realize that a lot of people didn't really dig deeper into the story because we were so focused on the outcomes of the butterfly affect. Glad I came across this!
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@rellyrell1522
@rellyrell1522 2 жыл бұрын
I agree. This game was literally like a movie to me. I appreciate the people who take their time to dig deep to understand the nuances behind the story in this game
@monsterhanna6691
@monsterhanna6691 2 жыл бұрын
I'll never understand why someone wouldn't do that, like Daz Games for example. (I love him, but still). Not only could it give clues to win the game or certain scenarios, but also give more details/history in the game in order to appreciate and understand it. If I was playing the game, which I haven't, I would want to find as many clues as possible since the game is so fascinating to me; I wouldn't want to pass that up.
@OceansFromTheRain
@OceansFromTheRain Жыл бұрын
I’ve always wondered why one of the Wendigos seemed to fight the others and, especially in that final scene where it tackles the other out of reach of Sam, seemingly protect them. I chalked it up it being a convenient fief for dominance for the sake of the plot, but the idea that there was still some of the old Hannah alive gives me an entirely new perspective!
@TheFluffyWendigo
@TheFluffyWendigo 5 ай бұрын
When the hunger takes over, certain thought processes don't always translate. Its pain, what do I need to do to stop the pain? Eat flesh, I found flesh, this other Wendigo is in the way of me eating flesh, and...Wendigos are very fond of sharing.
@camilofranco5303
@camilofranco5303 2 жыл бұрын
What I don’t understand is why would Hannah kill Sam?? Sam tried to warn her and was not in the prank scene, also when Hannah found out it was a prank, Sam stormed into the room and was visibly upset… not to mention Sam was Hannah’s best friend. So why would Hannah’s wendigo avoid killing mike at all cost but killing Sam in their first encounter??
@ilay_ux
@ilay_ux 2 жыл бұрын
i wondered that as well, i guess they didn't want Sam to be an invincible character. but at the same time it's up to our interpretation really. Wendigos are still Wendigos at the end of the day. Killing is in their nature, and it hasn't stopped Hannah from doing it to Sam, even if she's her best friend. (Because it's not like Hannah's completely in control.)
@smaragdchaos
@smaragdchaos 2 жыл бұрын
Sam was stupid for not waiting in front of the room where the prank was supposed to take place lol. Also Hannah's relationship with Sam and Mike did affect her behavior as a wendigo. Handigo delivers Sam a quick death by impaling her body, and she only injures Mike instead of killing him outright, allowing him to set the place ablaze. In comparison, she rips out Jess' lower jaw, crushes Emily's eyes, beheads Ashley and Chris and impales Matt's neck on a hook. Only weird thing is her crushing Josh's head, but that is avoidable too. Mike was likely higher on the ladder due to Hannah's crush on him
@sheillamaejunsay484
@sheillamaejunsay484 Жыл бұрын
@@smaragdchaos To be fair, hannah was no saint either because she knew mike and emily was a thing back then but she immediately stripped down in front with a guy who's in a relationship. Considering that the girlfriend was also her friend and was with them at that place. Maybe that was the reason why sam arrived late.
@smaragdchaos
@smaragdchaos Жыл бұрын
@@sheillamaejunsay484 Nah, I agree Hannah was a bitch, but Sam not waiting in front of the room was still a 0 IQ moment.
@tyronethfc561
@tyronethfc561 Жыл бұрын
Tbh you'll notice sam and Mike's death are the least brutal out of all of them so maybe there also the quickest while Emily and jess and the most brutal ones
@ItsYaBoiV
@ItsYaBoiV Жыл бұрын
So it's more likely that Hannah was saving the others for herself rather than protecting her friends. Wendigo lore often involves people possessed by the evil eating family and friends first.
@primalistic9141
@primalistic9141 11 ай бұрын
I feel like both theories are right, she saves josh if he recognizes her so that would mean she has some humanity left, but it seems she killed the wendigos to kill her competition for food
@mattj.7756
@mattj.7756 2 жыл бұрын
Based on how they’re positioned, when Josh and Chris are passed out, it looks like they engaged in a drinking contest that neither won.
@user-zf5ii2eq5x
@user-zf5ii2eq5x 2 жыл бұрын
This story explained is really good especially for the sequel “rush of blood” sense most people haven’t played this it will help explain the story of all 7 levels and help explain who Josh and the sisters are
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@s1nnur_
@s1nnur_ Жыл бұрын
Great video! I had to feel sorry for Josh. His family invited those people to their amazing lodge for a nice little party and they ended up killing his sisters. His pain was completely legitimate, and compunded by a nasty illness. Like a lot of people with mental health issues he was just left alone, isolated and hurting, fending for himself in an impossible situation. I wish he'd had a better ending.
@godbear2930
@godbear2930 2 жыл бұрын
I'm happy to see people still talking about this game. No matter how many times I've seen it I just keep watching let's plays of it. This game is truly captivating to me and it's the only horror game that I own. It's also the only time that I knew nothing about a game but immediately went out and bought it after seeing it for the first time.
@siobhan4862
@siobhan4862 2 жыл бұрын
Isn't it crazy how Rami Malek (who did mocap for Josh) went from actor on a videogame to Oscar winning actor?!
@drewdavalos2746
@drewdavalos2746 2 жыл бұрын
My family is Native American (Mexican to be exact) and I can say that the story of The Wendigo has ALWAYS terrified me and I will be fearful of it until the day I die
@jaseona
@jaseona 2 жыл бұрын
Native Americans aren’t Mexican
@drewdavalos2746
@drewdavalos2746 2 жыл бұрын
@@jaseona Yeah we are lol. Native American like Native to the american continent cus country's dont technically exist. I've also got some family native to Arizona
@williamchavez9131
@williamchavez9131 2 жыл бұрын
@@jaseona the Aztecs and Mayans are native tribes in central america😐
@ramon4184
@ramon4184 Жыл бұрын
@@jaseona they are. The native mexicans and the natives share alot in common more so then you may think.
@LonthaDon
@LonthaDon Жыл бұрын
@@ramon4184 mestizó
@hugo511
@hugo511 2 жыл бұрын
6 years later and Until Dawn videos are still getting 100K+ views (even within the first 2 months), testament to how good this story/game was. I hope we will have another one like it.
@reddead111
@reddead111 2 жыл бұрын
As a twin sister myself, this story made me cry really hard 😭😭 so tragic
@kiachaotic6554
@kiachaotic6554 9 ай бұрын
Same. When my twin and I watched the game years ago, we both agreed we would die together if that came about to us
@cottonclouds
@cottonclouds 2 жыл бұрын
until dawn continues to be one of my favorite horror games ever. no matter how many times i watch someone play it, it continues to give me chills
@LuffyBlack
@LuffyBlack 2 жыл бұрын
I felt so bad for Josh. Such a tragic figure
@erichdelossantos4701
@erichdelossantos4701 2 жыл бұрын
poor hannah and her sister. i feel sorry for them even though its just a game
@pijamaprince
@pijamaprince 2 жыл бұрын
I love that this game has a lot of native/indigenous representation. I think this culture is really interesting, me being from Alberta, Canada myself.
@dee_is_tired
@dee_is_tired 2 жыл бұрын
sort of there's no actual explicitly indigenous characters in the game, so it's not exactly representation you could say it has representation of indigenous cultures, and yes, there is, but at the same time, from what i've heard, most cultures who believe in these creatures don't like talking about them as they believe it to be a bad omen, so making a game centering around these creatures pretty much goes against what they believe/want
@rifleshooterchannel208
@rifleshooterchannel208 2 жыл бұрын
Also wendigos aren't real so you can't legitimately say it's based off of any culture.
@pijamaprince
@pijamaprince 2 жыл бұрын
@@rifleshooterchannel208 wendigos come from native folk lore. You shouldn’t say they aren’t real since some native people are very spiritual and genuinely believe in those creatures.
@rifleshooterchannel208
@rifleshooterchannel208 2 жыл бұрын
@@pijamaprince It’s not my fault that they’re delusional.
@pijamaprince
@pijamaprince 2 жыл бұрын
@@rifleshooterchannel208 they aren’t delusional. It’s apart of their culture. Please don’t be racist.
@karlo7893
@karlo7893 2 жыл бұрын
This is a perfect game for backseat gaming. But i could never play this alone
@theusual6317
@theusual6317 2 жыл бұрын
You explained it really well! I thought I'd get overwhelmed with the possible details and all. This was pretty easy to digest. Thank you!
@aleksandertroszczynski5865
@aleksandertroszczynski5865 2 жыл бұрын
This has got to be one of my favourite video essay style videos on KZfaq, many people don't realise how deep the Until Dawn story really goes and just sum it up to be "Stupid teenagers almost die, the end" when there's so much real life history and meaning behind so much of the story, you really did the game good honor for bringing all of this info together
@iwin1560
@iwin1560 2 жыл бұрын
This game is brilliant and will always have a special place in my heart
@stephaniealexandra2731
@stephaniealexandra2731 2 жыл бұрын
Wow! Years after playing this and I just randomly saw your video being recommended by YT. I checked this out and I realized I missed so much of the story! Thank you! So in depth! This deserves more views.
@harrymccallum3471
@harrymccallum3471 2 жыл бұрын
Wow.. never thought about Hannah not hurting Mike and protecting Sam at the end!
@darkangelux_536
@darkangelux_536 2 жыл бұрын
I gotta say I love your theory about Hannah still having some memories coming back to her from time to time during the events of the game. You have good points to prove this since I never really took it from that angle. I always thought she was filled with hatred as a vengeful spirit and wanted to kill everyone on instict but your theory about Mike is making a lot of more sense. Thanks for your work. Your "story explained" videos are fun and interesting to watch. It's awesome to see someone trying to say what they are thinking about the game and then use proofs to prove it and help us understand your POV.
@glowingforthe1654
@glowingforthe1654 2 жыл бұрын
If you guys like until dawn. Read the monstrumologist: curse of the wendigo
@NaniSang0
@NaniSang0 2 жыл бұрын
This was very great video! I always enjoyed watching the game playthrough but never really understood the lore behind it. Also, to add on to what you said about Wendigo Hannah having lingering feelings for Mike. I think she also had lingering anger toward Emily and Jessica as well. Depending on the playthrough, Hannah would kill them in brutal ways like ripping Jessica’s jaw off or gouging out Emily’s eyes.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Great observation! Glad you enjoyed the video!
@Dmac1305
@Dmac1305 2 жыл бұрын
Love your Story explained videos, please make more!
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Lots more coming!
@Kenneth_A_H
@Kenneth_A_H 2 жыл бұрын
This was a fun game and I liked this story a quite a bit better than the other games the company released. The literal monster in Until Dawn was more fun than all the heavy and depressing symbology of the later games. I hope it returns to this formula every once in a while as too much symbolic imagery just comes off as pretentious and preachy after a while. The Manchurian gold story was fun but the Salem one was too meh, and ended with "it was all in his head" which I found a bit annoying even if the overall story was very sad. Still wouldn't mind story explained on either of them tho. Either way thanks for the fun video.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qJ9piLKb1pzIY6M.html
@FareezYusran
@FareezYusran 2 жыл бұрын
Judging from the new trailer and gameplay teaser alone, I believe the next instalment of The Dark Anthology (House of Ashes) featured real supernatural elements instead of psychological horror. But, the fans are still keeping in doubt whether it's real monsters or just another psychological cliche lmao, due to how Man of Medan and Little Hope played out.
@Kenneth_A_H
@Kenneth_A_H 2 жыл бұрын
@@GamingHarryYT I must be brain-dead because I already watched and like that video.
@Kenneth_A_H
@Kenneth_A_H 2 жыл бұрын
@@FareezYusran I've got my hopes up for it, while I do like Little Hope it's my least favorite of them. If only because its disturbingly possible to suffer mental issues like that.
@TaylorUbinas
@TaylorUbinas 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah Until Dawn is my favorite game out of the company, I wasnt a fan of the other games. I liked little hopes monsters but I hated that it was all in his head. I really hope they come back to this and bring these back. The story and the creatures are my favorite.
@DurvalLacerda
@DurvalLacerda 2 жыл бұрын
I love how the Wendigos move. It feels like stop-motion
@tydshiin5783
@tydshiin5783 2 жыл бұрын
Something that I never understood was why Josh decided to test/torture Chris when he and Josh were drunk and knocked out, and why Josh also did Sam when it was quite clearly shown that she's trying to warn Hannah Was it because Chris and Ashley were together? Did Josh do it to Sam because she couldn't help Hannah? If anything the ppl that he should have really done it to were Mike, Emily, Matt and Ashley, since those *Were* the people that pranked Hannah Now I know that Emily and Mat went out to get the luggage, but like, it was quite clear that the scheme was designed specifically for Chris and Ashley and Sam *only* and absolutely no one else
@kaylenemedeiros2337
@kaylenemedeiros2337 2 жыл бұрын
I kinda feel like josh partially blames Sam for not warning Hannah in time. As for why he tortured Chris I’m not so sure. I think it’s bc of Ashley being involved and he wanted Ashley to feel afraid and abandoned by her crush (Chris). Like maybe josh expected Chris to choose him over Ashley and shoot Ashley and save himself and he wanted Ashley to feel hurt by Chris like Hannah was hurt by mike.
@tydshiin5783
@tydshiin5783 2 жыл бұрын
@@kaylenemedeiros2337 I think I can see how you mean, but I don't understand why aren't the others that were actually involved in the prank punished at all, and as a matter of fact they were split up on purpose(Mike and Jess) except Emily and Matt who I don't think was even planned to be pranked at all
@calc3961
@calc3961 2 жыл бұрын
@@tydshiin5783 I think the reason Josh tortured Chris and Ashley together was his own sick, demented way of trying to play cupid and help Chris get Ashley
@tydshiin5783
@tydshiin5783 2 жыл бұрын
@@calc3961 that makes more sense now that you mentioned it, since he did ask and tease him if he was with Ashley before they went into the house
@katiehanson2290
@katiehanson2290 Жыл бұрын
I saw one theory, can’t remember where, that Josh was actually trying to get Chris and Ashley together. Put them through these tests to admit they’re feelings for each other. It also sounds like Josh is trying to start his own kind of video channel (I think he says something like “all my viewers” in the video he sends as invites to lodge). He may have had other specific things planned for everybody else and they just never cam about because of wendigos. There part where Jess and Mike are heading to cabin and Jess finds creepy mask, maybe Josh was going head over there later in the evenings
@adeel-eh7xq
@adeel-eh7xq 2 жыл бұрын
Only two of my characters survived when I played this :(. Might play it again though. I was so surpised that one of the characters was played by the actress who played Amanda on Shameless.
@permeus2nd
@permeus2nd 2 жыл бұрын
So I really have to call BS on the idea that these people are friends, so of them are but ied say most of them are tolerated at best. Matt dosnt seem to be friends with any of them, the same for Emily after she splits up with Mike. Everyone likes Sam, Mike and josh (and maybe Beth), despite me liking Ashley I don’t see how she would end up at the cabin with them when Hannah goes missing as she is too bookish to really hang out with any of them unless Sam went out of her way to befriend her?
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah I get you. Their relationships are very disjointed
@shailoedmerrick6751
@shailoedmerrick6751 2 жыл бұрын
In the beginning of the game, Chris goes into the story of how he and Josh met and became best friends, and Chris is also best friends with Ashley, while having a crush on her, so that's why she's there. The others are probably kind of there out of familiarity. I mean, if you want to kind of use your imagination, you could say that Matt and Mike played sports together in high school, so that's how they're friends? Doesn't seem so odd then at that point.
@mariitz_
@mariitz_ 2 жыл бұрын
Hannah was friends with Matt
@kendrabraun309
@kendrabraun309 2 жыл бұрын
with all the new stories and games they're making, i wish they'd do one with the miners who got trapped. they could even use the choice making element to determine if you are one that gets eaten or if you eat to stay alive and become a wendigo. i feel like that would not only be scary but also flush out the lore
@zachboyd4749
@zachboyd4749 3 ай бұрын
17:22 One detail that supports your theory that Hannah may have been fighting her instincts is one I noticed on your zoom in when Hannah tackles the other wendigo. If you look at the eyes of the miner, they're completely whited out, there's not even a trace of humanity left in that monster. But if you look at Hannah's, there's a faint glimpse of her irises and pupils. Her eyes, for that brief instance, looked somewhat human. That may indicate a part of her humanity survived and she chose that decisive moment to make her move and ensure her friend's survival and free herself from this living death...
@ShadySliver17
@ShadySliver17 2 жыл бұрын
I loved this game The perfect blend of suspense and dram and then the steady transition into supernatural horror I hope a game like this is made again sometime soon
@lennypane62
@lennypane62 2 жыл бұрын
as a woodlands cree from saskatchewan, this game scares me and i refuse to play it lol. scares me even more knowing that it takes place in alberta lmao
@Aniowien
@Aniowien 2 жыл бұрын
They did find and 'emergency food source'. It just so happens to be their fellow miners.
@adityaelmirsatria4010
@adityaelmirsatria4010 2 жыл бұрын
Love all of your story explained videos, keep up the good work man
@xxmakeuplover05xx
@xxmakeuplover05xx 2 жыл бұрын
This was so well done and researched. I've loved the game since it came out and had no idea about some of this lore. Great job!
@gregzotter6189
@gregzotter6189 2 жыл бұрын
this game is survival horror done right: you decide the fate of the characters (minus the Washington sisters), all of whom have distinct personalities, and get a glimpse into a fascinating myth as well as how mental disorders (when untreated) can affect people.
@samuelsamuel5269
@samuelsamuel5269 2 жыл бұрын
This is great thanks, I’ve watched a few play through a of this but never gleamed the full picture. Super informative, concise and well structured. You’re hired!
@n543576
@n543576 2 жыл бұрын
I came in just expecting a summarization of what I already knew, came out excited to do another playthrough. Wow...well done on this one.
@mikaross4671
@mikaross4671 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for making this video! I liked this game when it came out, but ended up really loving it because of the wendigo lore. This video is perfect for all the little details I missed, like Hannah seemingly saving Sam at the very end in the cabin.
@ShadoSpartan44
@ShadoSpartan44 2 жыл бұрын
it was an awesome game and i had the right idea but this video really helped clear up everything. I even appreciated the subtle stuff like at the end, it looked like hannah actually was trying to save her friend. Great video hope you can do more in this way
@DebFiloriBurrous
@DebFiloriBurrous 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for putting all the pieces of story together now it all makes sense for great game.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@theflyxx
@theflyxx 2 жыл бұрын
I freaking LOVED this game. Played it during the summer of 2017 and it was a blast. A really great gaming experience.
@guitarmystery8432
@guitarmystery8432 2 жыл бұрын
16:56 why does Hannah instantly kill Sam if she knew that she was the only one who wasn’t in on the prank?
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
She still has some of her human memory retained, but the Wendigo spirit is strong. She went 'full Wendigo' when she sensed Sam moving, as that is what their sight and instincts are based on
@guitarmystery8432
@guitarmystery8432 2 жыл бұрын
@@GamingHarryYT well that makes sense. Thanks for the reply and keep up the good work!
@lyle1850
@lyle1850 2 жыл бұрын
I think when Hannah grabbed her by the egad and looked at her, she recognized Sam but didn't want to kill her, but because she is possessed by the spirit of the Wendigo, she couldn't control it. That's why she didn't disfigure her face at all. That's my opinion at least. Which doesn't make sense cause Sam tried to help Hannah. Wendigo Hannah should've been easy on Sam not Mike LOL
@alexisnavarrete7167
@alexisnavarrete7167 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t even play video games anymore like that but I genuinely enjoy this channel and watching all the explanations
@FareezYusran
@FareezYusran 2 жыл бұрын
Wow lots of new info that I haven't known before! Great research.
@retroguyst8132
@retroguyst8132 2 жыл бұрын
Great video, man. I forgot how great this story was, now I'm going to play through it again. Capcom and super massive should both be donating to you.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Haha thanks! Glad you enjoyed!
@kablard
@kablard 10 ай бұрын
Why Capcom?
@retroguyst8132
@retroguyst8132 10 ай бұрын
@@kablard oops you're right. Wrong company.
@kablard
@kablard 10 ай бұрын
@@retroguyst8132 Lol yeah, Sony/PlayStation is the publisher.
@retroguyst8132
@retroguyst8132 10 ай бұрын
@@kablard yeah I loved until dawn but not the other ones which followed it
@napoleonibonaparte7198
@napoleonibonaparte7198 2 жыл бұрын
I still hate how Josh doesn’t get a good ending…
@jameswagstaff984
@jameswagstaff984 2 жыл бұрын
This format would work brilliantly for a Nightmare on Elm Street game
@rasmustagu
@rasmustagu 2 жыл бұрын
Your recaps are by far my favorite on the platform.
@FlowersAnimations
@FlowersAnimations Ай бұрын
I like how Jess was like “I’m just helping my friend” or whatever when they do the prank on Hannah, and also was a big part of it, than a year later she took that boyfriend from said friend :,)
@liamnelson8151
@liamnelson8151 2 жыл бұрын
Absolutely love these videos man!! please keep making these as for fans of story driven games, these are awesome in capturing the essence of the plot and really hope your channel grows!
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you like them!
@coreyboi873
@coreyboi873 2 жыл бұрын
This has been one of my favorite games for a very long time... Also the part part where you talked about Hannah legit creeped me TF out and was new to me. Like especially after she stares at Mike through the wood...
@nikawi.x2466
@nikawi.x2466 2 жыл бұрын
Northern cree from Calgary Alberta, its so amazing seeing such a huge game use our history and lore in a cool way.
@tris1927
@tris1927 2 жыл бұрын
Laughed at that “Drama” scene😂 Didn’t expect it.
@estrellaescobar5723
@estrellaescobar5723 20 күн бұрын
I watch dozens of videos about Until Dawn and this is the first time i hear Victor Milgram story. I just love this game, is such a masterpiece with so many details that it keeps giving content almost a decade later.
@kiera-tf1xd
@kiera-tf1xd 2 жыл бұрын
i remember watching this game when it first came out i still love it so much
@sadiya6621
@sadiya6621 2 жыл бұрын
wow man you blew my mind !!!.. this is one of ur best works so far !! hats off
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@brookemattingly6216
@brookemattingly6216 2 жыл бұрын
This is a really well written well researched video! Thank you for posting!!
@SuperMbprincess
@SuperMbprincess 2 жыл бұрын
So crazy how random vids show up on ur recommended. I literally never would’ve found ur channel bc I don’t play video games, but I’m glad I’m here 💗💗
@thelastdesk
@thelastdesk 2 жыл бұрын
Waiting for this channel to blow up. Keep making awesome content!!
@AFoxInFlames
@AFoxInFlames Жыл бұрын
It was just a prank Han!
@krzysztofbanat6709
@krzysztofbanat6709 2 жыл бұрын
Just found this channel. Great narration and some intel to fill in some blanks i had with lore of few games. I'm staying for longer. Thanks :)
@gamabomb6340
@gamabomb6340 2 жыл бұрын
Literally just came from the Outlast video and man I think I'm just gonna go ahead and subscribe man. You do an amazing job going through the characters story and even background historical events. Can't wait to go to your next videos.
@marialouise3450
@marialouise3450 2 жыл бұрын
I love just how well everything was researched and executed in this game, it really felt more like an interactive movie! I also loved how you talked about the Cree!
@vworldgaming
@vworldgaming 2 жыл бұрын
The details and EVERYTHING I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS KEEP IT IP.
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoy them!
@angiemichele313
@angiemichele313 2 жыл бұрын
i freaking love this game man, i love that this was made! well deserved video it needed
@starcrossreverie
@starcrossreverie 2 жыл бұрын
Amazing video! The game's story is SO good, so many little details that adds up to a bigger story
@SleepyKwee
@SleepyKwee 2 жыл бұрын
I don't know if I'd call it an obsession to mention a crush multiple times in your diary when you're a teenage girl, though having a photo of him up in her room is admittedly a little odd. 😅 Love this video though, I love the story of Until Dawn and enjoyed listening to you speak about it. Thank you! 💜
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Haha nah she was obsessed. Big time
@kablard
@kablard 10 ай бұрын
Hannah was 18 at the time of her death so you could say she was a young adult instead of a teenage girl.
@zenfui459
@zenfui459 2 жыл бұрын
love these videos so much, keep it up man!
@GamingHarryYT
@GamingHarryYT 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you love them!
@danieldevito6380
@danieldevito6380 Жыл бұрын
That ending lodge scene was fantastic
@Faith24387
@Faith24387 Жыл бұрын
I just got done playing this game and honestly now that I’m watching this video the story makes a lot more sense
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