The Chained Dragon goes hard, definitely the best Targaryen epithet, I’m surprised Grrm never used it for maester Aemon

"we all think you're kinda weird and don't want you getting married" Vaegon: "billions must die"

I think you're too hard on Vaegon here, by suggesting a great council, he creates a way for the Targ dynasty to settle succession disputes without having a bloody civil war. If anything he's a hero.

If Vaegon does appear in Hot D, then I think an interesting idea would be to have him act as a dark version of maester Aemon for Daeron if he’s actually in the show

This seems like a pretty massive reach to me; we have no reason to believe that Vaegon had any kind of murderous resentment toward his own family, especially members like Viserys and Rhaenys, at most he’s characterized as being wholly apathetic toward them. For him to predict that the great council would somehow lead to the dance he would have to somehow be confident in the assumption that: a.) Viserys would have a girl b.) Viserys would then never be able to produce another living child with Aemma c.) Aemma would die in child birth, Viserys would remarry, produce a son who he would then break thousands of years of precedent to pass over for the throne. Or he would have to for some reason believe that Viserys would make some other random blunder on the throne massive enough to lose the Targaryens their twenty some odd dragons. The assertion that putting Viserys on the throne somehow distances the throne from magic doesn’t make any sense to me either as Viserys never expressed any intention to get rid of or prevent the rest of his family from riding dragons. From a logical perspective the great council was the move most likely to avoid a violent succession crisis, and thats what it did. If anything, the dance would have happened sooner given Jae didn’t go through with the council. I feel like people take the great maester conspiracy at face value as the explanation for a bunch of things throughout the story that have infinitely more plausible and likely explanations.

"The opposite of the Targaryen ideal is math!" (paraphraising) Elaena, daughter of Aegon III, de-facto mistress of coin for Daeron II because of her talent in math: "Am I a joke to you?"

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -some maester probably

Marwyn is simply wrong. He says Aemon was sent to the Wall because the maesters didn't trust him, but we know the real reason: he was going to be used as a pawn against Aegon IV, a rival candidate for the throne, but he took Night's Watch oaths on top of his maester's oath to prevent that. He says Aemon wasn't raised to archmaester because he was no more trustworthy than Marwyn... but Marwyn was raised to archmaester and none of the other maesters actually seem to be doing anything against him! Vaegon could not have foreseen that a later king would have a daughter he named as heir, then have a son and that the two would contest the throne. Real people cannot foresee causal chains that long, and Vaegon doesn't seem to have magical powers of foresight. His proposal of a Great Council to resolve an ambiguous succession is later echoed by Catelyn, not because she's trying to undermine anyone but instead to resolve a conflict in a way the vassals of the throne will support.

What do you think of the parallels between Vaegon having the flagon of Arbor Gold poured over his head, and later his yellow gold Archmaester mask, to Viserys having molten gold poured over his head? The Maester’s link of gold represents sums and mathematics, but in the story gold also represents wealth and currency, and in prophecy it represents the downfall of Valyria or Targaryens. Not only did Jaime (of Casterly Rock) end the line of Targaryen rule in Westeros by putting his golden sword through the mad king’s neck, but many theorize the Doom of Valyria may have been sparked by a sum of wealth “the gold of Casterly Rock” being paid to the faceless men.

Another thing about the great council is that since it's the idea of Vaegon, it's interesting that a lot of people who did not have a vote were allowed to talk. Maesters gave their opinions, as well as septons. Both organisation were based in Oldtown, and we know the Hightowers (the lords of Oldtown) voted for Viserys. Dornish lords were also invited. Since they weren't under the Iron Throne, they wouldn't have a vote. Considering their own laws, they would have supported Rhaenys. Considering they were widely hated by the other kingdoms, it probably did more ill than good for Rhaenys' Cause. There is also the fact the council ended before all the lords could attend and vote. most likely, the nothern lords would be the last to arrive, as they are the farthest. And since the Starks voted for Rhaenys, and the North generally follow their leads, its quite a few votes lost for Rhaenys. If Vaegon oversaw all those details of the council, then he really stacked the deck against Rhaenys, which makes one wonder if the vote could actually have gone another way without all of that. And that's before taking into account things like the Lannisters and Tyrells (who both voted for Viserys) who brought armies with them (no, voter intimidation isn't a thing, shut up you're crazy.)

I would love to see a video about maester Marwyn and about his potential role in the story. In my opinion, he was the most interesting new character in "Feast" and I hate the fact that he only appeared in one chapter and didn't even show up in "Dance".

I suppose there need not be any bad blood between Vaegon & his house, I think what he suggested to Jaehaerys was solid advice. The vote could be influenced in many ways, but just the appearance of a wide consensus gave the successor much needed legitimacy. This is to be contrasted with the plot of house of the dragon.

Vaegon really said “If I can’t have a dragon then no one can!”

I just assumed the Dance of Dragons was the catalyst for the Citadel to eradicate dragons, because they saw what kind of destruction they can create. I assumed they just started poisoning eggs or something. That's why all the dragons born post-Dance were all stunted.

What I really dislike about the theory that the Maesters killed the dragons is that it takes away all the blame from the people actually involved - ie, The Targaryens. It's been said in the series that the only thing that can bring them down is themselves. By pinning the blame on the maesters, it basically absolves them of all fault. It turns what was once a saga about a powerful family flying too close to the sun and burning in the flame of their own hubris, into a boring standard black and white fantasy. Plus, the dragons are supposed to be symbols of the Us's WMD/nuclear bombs. I don't know why GRRM, who was a Vietnam War protester, would try to turn the Targaryens, who are for all intents and purposes colonisers, into the victims. Basically, I'm hoping Marwyn the Mage's claims are just a red herring.

As a historian, I'd say it's incredibly unlikely but in the context of GRRM's imagination, it may have a decent chance of being true. My main reason is this: Vaegon would have to know Viserys wouldn't have a son in the future. Assuming he would (as was very logical in 101 AC), Viserys was the much more sensible option because as a man, the majority of lords preferred him. So for your theory to work, Vaegon would have to be some sort of dragon dreamer or something similar, for which there doesn't seem to be any evidence.

Hey Quinn wanted to say the content has been absolutely amazing really enjoying it since finding your channel a year ago. Keep up the great work. Vaegon being a double agent was interesting to learn about since he's always looked over.

Great video love your takes on such great pieces of themes characters and the story elements that run wild thru out all of this story ❤🎉

Another great theory video by Quinn the GM. I would love a deep dive into your thoughts on Marwin the mage and his motivations

bless you for this video quinn the gm!!!! ✨🤌🏻

Just discovered your channel. Loving what I'm hearing so far.

Any chance Vaegon is neurodivergent? If he's autistic he might be obsessed with math and have little interest in family, or much else. Could explain his blunt speech and seeming lack of interest in human connection too

What happens to maesters during sieges of castles and after them? Like I imagine the Tarbek and Reyne maesters were killed along with their houses but wouldn’t that anger the Citadel? Or is that just considered as coming with the territory.

Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, while you could argue that some decisions/aspects may have led to stuff down the line... I doubt Vaegon orchestrated the murder of so many of his kin and the death of all but 4 dragons by the end of the Dance. Honestly, Vaegon just told his dad to go for a vote so as to avoid war. Which is hardly villainous or scheme-worthy to me. It doesn't matter if Viserys did or didn't have a dragon, and if both or neither party had dragons, the Oldtown folk wouldn't have had anything to have any possible "bias" against. As for the Northern Lords not making it down south in time. Sure, it happened, doesn't mean it was planned. With or without their support, Rhaenys wasn't gonna win the vote, and all the Stark Bannermen wouldn't have changed that. Every lord who arrived had armies as well, so its not like the, what, "Pre-Green"? Factions were planning to kill everyone if Rhaenys won. If a woman won, then the Maesters would just have something else to right about: a woman in high power. Also, Marwyn may not have spoken about the Dance in regards to the Civil War. They meant the Doom of Valyria. They saw Dragons visiting the Crownlands and such more often and decided to put a stop to it before Westeros was enslaved en-masse. Otto and Alicent, while aren't super friendly with dragons, knew their kids/grandkids are dragonriders. There was mever a Hightower plot to kill off the Dragons. If the Greens were able to crown Aegon with no issue, they wouldn't have had to deal with the Dragons. Mind you, the Blacks had their own forces kill off Dragons in ways that goes against this idea as well; (A Blackwood archer kills Tessarion instead of letting her heal, and Blackwoods were JUST fighting the Hightowers/Green forces.) And sure, not many Targaryens likely were good at math. Most of the Nobles weren't. Math and Magic arent opposites. I'd argue the contrary: they go hand in hand. Alchemy and Spell-Casting may take a smarter, mathematical mind for some to pull off or study. Hell, is Magic (in many cases) not just tech/biology that someone doesn't understand? The Grand Maester Conspiracy thing is given way too much power in every sense of the word. Yes it has some credence, but I promise you; If the Hightowers wanted to slay the Dragons and all the Targaryens, and they had a whole scheme set up down in Oldtown, it wouldn't have taken 300 years for House Targaryen to finally fall. I guarantee they'd have all been murdered a lot sooner. If House Hightower REALLY wanted to kill them off THIS badly to the point people think they've got Palpatine-levels of schemes and political evil, then... they'd do what they did last time: ask the Faceless men to do it 😅 The Dance wouldn't have happened if Aegon took the Throne without issue. Hell, doesn't even have to be the Hightowers to do it, it could've been anyone else who were in the same spot and saw the male heir taking precedence to be the way of things.

That may eventually bear out but I am unconvinced at his causing the Dance. Having shitty relations with your family probably doesn't make one orchestrate a fratricidal war. 🤣 HOWEVER, at that stage, I can see it being a concerted effort by the Maesters to try and rein in the Targs and if possible diminish the influence of dragons. Supporting Viserys would fit with that. But at that point, unless he had dragon dreams or something, they'd have little reason to think that a succession crisis would happen when he dies.

Great video as always

4:45 Elysar said that Vaegon could not become a maester, but might have had what it took to be an Archmaester. Which is about being the master of a subject and teaching others, no serving lords involved. The three days later thing is when Jaehaerys summoned him to inform him that he would go to the citadel. 5:33 Whilst mathematics was presumably his specialty, given the yellow gold, we are also told he studied astronomy, alchemy and other things of the arcane.

Nice vid my guy! This is more of a Hightower power grab stuff but anyway: If I recall at 101ac Otto Hightower had already befriended Viserys and that probably was also one of the reasons why Oldtown was pushing for a council possibly through Vaegon. Rare opportunity to get a ”man inside” meaning kings tend to pick their friends (or so they think) for powerful positions like, i don’t know, to be a hand of the king. As Vaegon said ’no’ when offered the throne and suggested a council he must have known Viserys would be the prime or next to prime candidate to win the vote.

The Dragon who fires math from his mouth

Vaegon Targaryen third son of King Jaehaerys the prince that was promised

The maesters would of also been against Rhaenys because she is a woman. They never took Alysanne seriously when she suggested allowing women to become maesters so I can see why they would attempt to push for a male heir rather than a female despite claiming in TWOIAF that Laenor (and by extension Rhaenys) had the best claim by primogeniture.

Wouldn't Vaegon not want Viserys really since he was the son of two of Vaegon's least favorite siblings, Baelon and Alyssa, and Viserys' brother Daemon, who at the time many would see as Viserys' heir, had all the traits Vaegon hated in his siblings. Rhaenys though, was from a brother he had no known trouble with. Plus Jaehaerys pretty much asked Vaegon who he thought should be the next monarch and Jaehaerys didn't need a council to choose his heir, Vaegon could have just told him to pick Viserys for the same reason Jaehaerys chose Baelon over Rhaenys when Aemon died. In the end I think Vaegon just suggested the most logical choice to show who the majority of the realm supported and if the Maesters were hoping to instigate conflict then maybe they should have chosen someone better than the cowardly idiot that was Orwyle to be Grand Maester. Also Vaegon would be Daeron's great-uncle.

I love that Vaegon was so boring, even as an archmaester, he basically became the realm's most glorified accoutant.

Once again a very cool video thanks! I’m not quite sold on the idea that Vaegon in Grrm perspective is that important because although the math hint’s make sense, I personally feel that he just is not that important a character… The accounts we have of that time in the lens of Maesters ans Septons is very much bias and still Vaegon isn’t praised or anything he just is Vaegon, which is mediocre asf (by Targ/ Maester standards in this case). Like there are plenty of chains materials thats would serve to make a character more interesting/ valuable to the story than gold. I still feel like gold chains are like something Mace could do (even though Mace might be a genius lol).

thats interesting couse i originally thought that the reign of Jeahearys Targaryen was so safe from the grand maester conspiracy becouse he had a son at the citadel so this video gave me some thinking yet there is an issue that the only person really that mocked him was princess Allysa . Yes he fought Daella stupid but essentially it was his foult since it was Vaegon that first mocked his simple minded sister one would think that after so many years he wouldnt hold a grudge for like these 2 instances by Alyssa also the text doesnt try to imply that Vaegon had bad relations with his older brothers he just kinda didnt care and if anything he would be a little anoyed at Baelon during their traning but when the king sent him to the citadel he was happy so i dont think that he would help to put his family on demisetho i guess can be either way its Fire And Blood we are talking about after all meaby Mushroom would tell us

I mean, he already almost sounds like Faegon

I would actually like a video on the topic from you as a Maester Conspiracy sceptic. The arguments behind it, quotes used to back it and your opinion on pro and anti arguments.

This is a solid theory!

Also, having Vaegon in the citadel would mean the maesters have information about the dragons, that would've been useful in the storming of the dragonpit and later the possible poisoning of the dragons

Although if we follow your idea that Vaegon hates magic and drsgons. Then i don't see Vaegon interacting warmly with Daeron. Since Daeron is a eragon rider. He rides Tessarion. A blue she dragon.

There is a case that Vaegon was looking to upend the targaryen supremacy by making the heir a vote. The problem with the idea that he is using the Council as a way to take out the dragons and the dance being proof, is the outcome of the Council and the causes of the Dance. In 101 the count swayed in the direction it seemed most of Westeros and Jahaerys himself was leaning. If anything it was solidifying the line to come and showing Rhaenys she would not win a Civil War if she tried to contest. The factions of the dance are completely different to the factions of 101, to the point that both sides of 101 fight with the Black's during the dance. The Greens use the Great Council as a way to push for Aegon but the council isn't what split the family, it is the Hightowers. Unless the Hightowers got really lucky and could guess that Viserys would only have a daughter then a son from another later marraige that was half Hightower so they could use the Council as precedent... the council is not a direct cause of the family breaking apart and the dying of the dragons. Just a political tool that could further a Civil War with extremely certain circumstances that wouldn't pass for at least another handful of years.

I am glad you mentioned mathematics vs. magic. Mathematics is (generally viewed as) being clear, replicable, factual, and (in theory) anyone can learn; it is the natural opposite of magic, which is far more vague and inconsistent, which only some are gifted with. Both are a path to power that require practice - math to the mundane but crucial power of economics and engineering, magic to the more fantastic power of prophecy and other magical things. In the main series, Littlefinger is the embodiment of mathematics as a sword of power as opposed to characters like Bloodraven or Melisandre, for whom magic is their sword.

yellow gold? maybe he’s lacking a dragon gene and envious of his family. sounds like he tried to fit the part as well as he could, trying and failing to train with the sword

Imaging a bullying chant akin to “dragon nerds can’t do maths”

Liked for "targaryens can't math"

The argument in favor of maestres still fighting against Targaryens (at least in recent years) is how all the key houses were planed to have marriages between them by the maestres. Brandon and Cat, Eddard and Robert being close to Jon Arryn, Robert and Lyanna, Lysa and Jaime, when they were waiting for Viserys to be a woman the Martells were looking around other houses, Cersei and Oberyn was a posibility as Elia and Hightower.

Ngl the maesters killing all the dragons and specifically Vaegon being resposible seems like a huge stretch especially since there were so many other key factors that went into the Dance that have nothing to do with Vaegon. Conflict between Rhaenys and Viserys for one definetly wasn't a factor. First, I have to point out that the whole purpose of The Great Council was to PREVENT immediate war between competing claimants, something it does successfully multiple times during the Targaryen reign. Establishing, or rather upholding, precedents does help in this regard. It's the right of Kings to name ANYONE they choose as heir that created more conflict. The Great Council of 101 turned an unclear succession into decades of peace because it gave Jaehaerys' successor something other than the king's mere word to support their absolute right to the throne. If it were not for Bloodraven The Great Council would've even brought the Blackfyres to the table and accept whatever decision was made. It's a good system! Viserys is the one who threw it all out the window entirely raising up Rhaenyra's otherwise non-existent claim to go against the 3 sons he sired who would have claims no matter what from birth. When claims conflict this hard conflict is basically inevitable. Second, if Vaegon was driven by a vendetta against his siblings it doesn't make sense that he choose Viserys. Viserys and Daemon are the sons of Baelon and Alyssa, the two siblings he would probably dislike the most. Also, if it was hatred against the Targaryen family that drove him then wouldn't it make more sense for him to favor Laenor VELARYON out of spite? Third, the results of the Great Council aren't exactly evidence of rigging by the maesters but more likely just reflection of actual views of most Westerosi lords at the time which we can define as 2 main factors. 1. They had a strong preference against child monarchs which is typical in a medieval setting. This clearly disadvantaged Laenor Velaryon and Maegor Brightflame. Perhaps skipping too many generations was also a factor though probably aslo because it usually meant child monarchs. This might be why Jaehaerys offered the crown to his sons including Vaegon before considering grandchilden. 2. They preffered the claimants of the direct male line.

To me it seems unlikely that the whole Order of Maesters is in a conspiracy against magic and dragons etc. it's probably afew cliques of certain Maesters

LETS GO

Dont blame the maesters tbh. I wouldnt want a bunch of several ton giant lizards flying around that can burn whole castles, armies and towns to ash and all controlled entirely by one family, whose members are more often than not, greedy, power hungry or downright psychotic. The dance of dragons was the worst war in westeros history with countless casualites and the primary cause for its level of devastation was the dragons. Also prophecy in asoiaf usually causes more grief to its recievers than relief. Misinterpreted visions can cause mayhem in the realm, people trying to force a prophecy end up causing major damage to themselves and others so the world could do without prophecy. Same with glass candles, invading peoples dreams is dangerous. Imagine invading a kings dream and driving him to madness. The realm would suffer heavily. For story purposes of course magic and dragons is cool af. But for someone living in westeros, magic would be a nigutmare to deal with. Not to mention, the Others, who unlike dragons, pose an existential threat to ALL of mankind.

I really hope they introduce him and even Saera in HotD season two but I doubt it

Ngl, my girl Alyssa had no chill at all.😂😂

If Vaegon was casted in HotD who would play him? Thanks

Ngl I kinda like the idea of the maesters of the Citadel being similar to the Syndicate from The X-Files. x) I'm sure that's how Lady Barbrey Dustin perceives them...

could it be that the Shephard who ordered the attack on the Dragon Pit was Vaegon himself?

The fact Barbrey Dustin calls them "Grey rats" says something

Vaegon were the best targaryen the only one to see how fucked up was his family and said fuck this shit, i will do mathematics and die paecefully in my bed.

I don't think we can blame Vaegon for the dance. The whole thing was Viserys's fault by not making Aegon heir or marrying him to Rhaenyra.

While most lords do trust the Maesters Barbary Dustin doesn't trust them, "Grey Rats" she calls them. Oldtown has three heads itself. The Citadel, Starry Sept, and the Hightower, and all three work together to advance the Andal agenda that seeks to dominate the Valyrians and First Men.

4:32 You may not see the value, but future gender studies in the ASOIAF world will love that.

Math is the opposite of dragons

I completely forgot about Vaegon😂😂😂

My man Vaegon the Sexless 🫡

I have a sibling that absolutely hates my success. RThey'll pretend to be my friend, and behind my back do all sorts of ish. So I can totally believe Vaegon would get to a point where he would betray his family.

You say his potential motivation align with anti magic and that he hates his family. But I say how? Vaegon only motivation is to be left alone the only time he acts is when forced to by others. Vaegon insulted daella because he didn’t want a stupid wife it was rude undoubtably but he just spoke his mind on the matter before he was forced to do something he didn’t want. He wasn’t confrontational with allysa She had the beef with him. Shit even him recommending the great council was because he was asked by his father. If anyone used the great council to get what he wants then it was probably jahearhys.

This theory is such a stretch he was a little mocked and all of a sudden he wanted to to kill every member of his house grandnephew/nieces he had never meet too. Doubt if

Vaegon W

This was a great theory, Vaegon betraying his father and making a "fair" choosing system thar the maesters could rigged is very likely now that i think about it

A scribe I believe writes things, including messages! Lmao

This assumes he never grew up, and only thought about that incident over his studies.

Vaegon Targaryen looks like Nicholas Lyndhurst.

I've always looked at Vaegon with a side-eye...either he directly undermined his family by suggesting the Council to his father, or his indifference towards his family allowed his order to use him to do their bidding. Of course with the introduction of Aegon's prophecy in HOTD, one had to wonder if King Jaehaerys was amenable to the suggestion because he was concerned about rebellions to Rhaenys' rule interfering with her preparedness to fight the Others, so he was uneasy about appointing her outright. Maybe he thought to leave it in fate's hands, and if Rhaenys won the vote then surely she would've been the Gods' choice to confront the pending apocalypse. Maybe lol. Great video Quinn!!

Imagine Marwen is just a conspiracy theorist

8:30 - "It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." - Joseph Stalin

vaegon is itachi basically

But anything though, the Great Council delayed the Dance another generation.

I think that mentioning "how GRRM write conspiracies" and only considering something on ASOIAF is misguided. He wrote about HUGE conspiracies in his works. 🤷

I don't know but Vaegon does seem to give a sassy gay vibes but closeted. His behavior, especially, remarks especially towards his sisters, does point out to a sassy gay friend everyone has.

Quinn, please please please stop improving your way through these videos. I love your content and the variety of topics in asoiaf you cover. But there are so many times where you explicitly say you don’t know something or like “I could be mistaken” or even saying excuse me after a cough. You have the benefit of being able to record a section. Mistakes are okay, but you shouldn’t intentionally publish something that leaves your viewers wondering. The one that happened this video was about how Vaegon and Daeron are related. It takes you a few minutes to find the knowledge and fix a section, but once it’s published, all of us viewers have to deal with it. Even leaving things out is okay, but it should be done intentionally. Anyways, keep up the content, I’ll keep clicking when I see thumbnails….

Spoiler - Weren’t a few dragons killed in the dragon pit by a mob? Feels like that’s something someone could instigate.

Not sure about this theory. Did Veagon just make the logical decision did he even know Viserys or Rheanys? And what difference Does it make if Veagon is blacks k it green anyway. Ageon ir Rheanys they are both dragons and dragon riders so are their children

I watched a thoery video, that the Maesters biasedly chose Viserys instead of Princess Rhaenyra because he didnt ride a dragon and the Maesters hated dragons.

the great council avoided a civil war not created one.

Really though, how do you have the luck of being born Targaryen, and CHOOSING not to bond with a dragon?? Weird guy.

While I agree with you on Vaegon for the most part where you err is with the phrase “broader Maester Conspiracies”. You are correct in premise just in the wrong depth. It’s not a SMALLER Conspiracy it’s a BIGGER Conspiracy that also includes The Faith of the Seven AND House Hightower. Not a single Generation of the Targaryen Dynasty went by without some form of weird Deaths as well as some type of pushing Targaryens against one another by suspiciously Reach and Oldtown connected persons. The level of Stillbirths and weird Birth related deaths for the Mothers is way higher in the Royal Family than in any other in the Kingdom. The Hightowers don’t seem to have any trouble, the Lannisters either, or the Starks. It’s only the Targs who have constant issues and while some amount of extra shenanigans is to be accepted with the higher rate of incest it’s way more than the margin of error there would indicate.

Yall reading too much into it. Bros just artistic

Broke: Vizzy T was picked cause he’s a man Woke: he was picked cause he didn’t have a dragon

Vaegon the first incel soyboy of house Targaryen

Vaegon was a complete idiot for betraying his family, what sort of a man does a thing like that to family?