Its crazy how much this applies to photography and lighting! It's Called feathering in photography lighting. It give much softer even light vs pointing the light directly at a person or group.

I live in an apartment and have developed the habit of listening nearfield , 6ft away from the speakers. This enables me to get full sound at lower volumes and helps to not disturb the neighbours. Advantages are that it helps to eliminate a lot of room interaction. I also have my Monitor Audio Bronze 2s toed in to the sweet spot. I tried them with no toe in, and have found that toe in really does give me a rock solid center image and I still have a wide sound stage. Haven't tried this extreme toe in, but I'm going to give it a whirl and see what happens. Great video! Keep up the good work!

When I used to work for Loews movie theaters. We worked out asymetrical horns that provided equal sound level left to right in coverage pattern. We got imaging in the theater to go from the middle 20% of the theatre to 80% of the theater width. You can't make time alignment correct, but at least the amplitude is equal left to right.

This is the absolute best FREE tip ever. I just eye balled it to see if it made any difference and yes it did. I’ll dial it in tomorrow when I have more time.

OK. I'm reviving this thread because you have made me nuts to the point of ridiculousness! I only recently found your channel via the speaker setup video and have been perusing the earlier stuff that you did. I've also been into soundstage and 'disappearing speaker' stuff on this and other channels. Then you suggest this 'crazy' idea that flies in the face of all speaker setup videos but yours. Had to try it because you said so. Oh; wow! I just tried this in my 12x20 listening room and BANG! I can't believe it! In the last week by using new speaker connectors (my old ones were from 30 years ago), a new Schiit Mani 2, and now, following the advice you have given in this video, I darn near have audio Karma -- BOTH the incredible and deep center stage together with the speakers completely disappearing! I now look at a speaker and the sound coming from center is so intense that I am immediately drawn away to instead look at the instruments 'on the stage'. For very little money and thanks to you and this tweak, the system sounds absolutely wonderful and better than everything else that I have ever heard. "Flabbergasted" is the audio word, and "God bless you for your works." are other ones that go on forever. Thank you.

I have a Buchardt S400 and played around with toe until I settled on the tweeters facing my ears. Been like this for months. I never even thought of trying extreme toe in. After watching your video, tried it and liked it within the first 3 songs. I think it will be staying this way. Thank you so much, great tweak! Subscribed.

I've done that same thing with my front towers (traditional, no waveguides) and it helps even out the volume heard from each L/R if sitting on the sides of the couch. Because the left seat is closer to the left speaker, which is toed in quite a bit, the upper frequency is rolled off, reducing the SPL they would normally hear if there was little or no toe-in. The right speaker, being farther away, is pointed right at them where there is no off-axis roll off. That increases the SPL they'd normally hear when there is little to no toe-in. In short, they get a reduced output from the left and an increased output from the right, which ends up balancing out very well because of the distance differential between them.

My front three speakers are GedLee speakers, built by Earl Geddes, toed in at 45 degrees cross firing a few feet front of me, so basically they are aimed at the farthest seating positions to the left and right, as you showed in this video. My imaging is superb with both audio and video. I also run multiple subs( as recommended by Earl )setup as he suggests. It sounds quite spectacular. The dynamics are off the charts. Earl truly is a guru when it comes to audio, and his speakers are like magic. He no longer builds speakers so I feel quite lucky to have bought them before he ceased production! Upgraditis is a thing of the past for me after owning these speakers. If you haven’t listened to a properly setup, proper waveguide speaker, then you’re missing out. I haven’t been impressed by any speakers at any store since buying mine. My wife is happy too since I haven’t felt like buying new speakers ever since I bought these. If you search for “Earl Geddes” on KZfaq, you can find a few videos of Earl explaining his setup theories. He really knows his stuff! Truly one of the finest minds in the audio world.

I’ve been in this hobby for 40 years and it takes a bit to impress me... the fact that it’s a free tweak ... well EUREKA! Great stuff and thank you... WOWED !

I’m late to the show, as usual. Klipsch’s set up instructions for my Heresy IIIs described this “radical” toe in. It didn’t compute when I opened the boxes last April. This morning I went downstairs to my sub-sub-optimal listening room and shoved them around. Took five minutes. It worked.

Ron, finally someone has taken the time to investigate and appreciate why corner designed speakers, like some designed back in the forty’s with constant directivity horns sound so good. I really like your educational driven videos.

I just tried this and it really does lock in that center image a lot more with the Klipsch. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge 👍 You do an awesome job with with your channel man!

What sorcery is this?? I've just tried it with my 600ms and it looks so wrong but the image is razor sharp, and there a ton of depth that's appeared from nowhere. I'm glad you posted this video, I'd never have tried such aggressive toe-in otherwise.

I have some klipsch La Scalas from 1983 that I rebuilt. Fully horn loaded from the 15” woofer, to the 1” tweeter and 1.5” midrange. These things are incredible. Very fast, transient, and lifelike. It’s like they’re waiting to create sound and when they do it just hits you with a sense of realism and accuracy I’ve never heard

I have Bowers 705s2 speakers pointing directly at my seating position at c7 feet and about the same distance apart. This gives me a solid centre image. I did try hyper toe in with my previous floorstanders and it definitely worked. Here’s a tip to know if you have your centre image is tight... If you have a balance control on your amp, like I do (Moon 240i), try moving the dial from centre to left and then go all the way to the right. If all’s well, you should be hearing the singer move across the stage in front of you as if he or she were holding the mic and walking across the room. Give it a try!

I cried cause how much the toe-in stuff helped me with my baby A5+ in a small 20m2 bedroom, the soundstage is improved a lot, the sound is fuller also. Thank you so much! You are a hero.

Ron, you my friend are a beauty. I did exactly that with my S400's. Boy what a revelation. The sound stage expands into and almost 16:9 anamorphic visual equivalent. It is the pin sharp centre image that is pure bliss. A big thank you 🙏

Extreme toe in can also work on bright speakers. Experimenting with distance between speakers while toing them in can help the sound "let go" the speakers. Tilting certain speakers forward or backwards can make a big difference on some speakers aswell. So guess what, everything affects the sound to some degree :)

Ron, this is the best tip EVER! I used this for the DI's and I am loving it! Thank you for this education!

My friend, I think this has been one of the most unique, helpful, insightful work in audiophile content ever. Please have this approach for more content. This is very helpful and awesome and not just another version of what people talk about reviewing speakers. Awesome awesome work! Thank you! 🙏

A day or two after finding the major placement for my budget Yamaha NS-6490s (no waveguides) using your "place your speakers in the dark" instructions, I tried this extreme toe-in. Actually turned out to noticeably widen the soundstage. Physics is weird, but I'm grateful for this - good result.

Did this with Klipsch RF-7 III and wow I was blown away by how much better it sounded. Thank you so much for this video. :)

Man.. I wish it was frequency Every Day's LOL. Love these types of videos. Keep em coming :)

So basically Paul Klipsch was a genius when he invented the Klipschorn.

I did this 40 years ago and have used it ever since. I prefer "wave guides" (horns to us old timers) because less sound is reflected from the walls and ceiling and floors. Yes, they have other problems.

Toe-in, LOL glad to here that old knowledge are still useful:-) 8:21 OH WAIT. By using the front spike, do you also move the speaker outward and thereby change the distance to the back and side wall, try to use the back spike in the same side, it can make a difference, try it:-) Try to tow it even more in, try to aim for the ear furthest from the speaker. And next, try to read about "lean back". EDIT: Oh forgot, if you want to really play, then try to place the speakers and your listening possession according to the bass distance between each wave, try to let place the speaker so that it's x,5 wave space from the wall and your listening possession the same..

I use this method often & while it is not new it is only mentioned from time to time. Good to see it here. Additionally since 75% of my listening includes my girlfriend, I also use this method (regardless of speaker type). It allows us to get an equal sweet spot that still has a focused stage. This essentially comes from my car audio days as a way to create good imaging for both passengers.(time alignment can not do that for 2 peeps)

More excellent content. Also, the chops are coming in nicely!

I've tried this with my Kef 201/2s and suddenly ... bass!! I've a pair of SVS SB2000s now totally unnecessary for 2 channel! Brilliant! The sweet spot is now huuuge and sound fills the room in a hugely improved way. Bravo!!

Bravo! Not just speakers with pronounced wave guides. Try it with crossing to opposite ears to opposite ends of wider listening seating areas. Have found this to work exceptionally well when having to set up out of corner or have unequal boundaries. Immediately unpacked individual voices in harmonies and background vocal and the multiple guitars in Nils Lofgren Acoustic Live in an otherwise impossible open concept room with uneven vaults and boundaries. Image density, separation, definition and localization went up ten fold. And no the stage didn't collapse. Things actually made more sense, became easier, more intelligible and more enjoyable for longer listening. Can't keep doing the same old thing the same way and reap new and better outcomes. Explore alternatives. This one is FREE. Thanks Ron.

Ha, super tip! The Kef ls50 is enough of a waveguide for this trick make a noticeable improvement.

Nice new Studio Ron and great content as usual, thank you!

Thank you! I have JBL 590s and my room is probably a little too small for them so you sit pretty close and the only "good seat" was in the middle for stereo listening. I'm going to have to fiddle with it more because initially I like it! You get a better center image from further off center.

The idea of aggressive toe-in reminds me of the Ohm Walsh speakers that use an omnidirectional woofer paired with a tweeter that points 45° into the center of the room, away from the front baffle. And allow for amazing soundstage and imaging that's good no matter where you are in the room.

Good info, thank you for that. I own a pair of Amphion Argon 3 speakers with waveguides. Not towing them in at all gave me the best result. But never tried to towing them in this extreme. The result is much better now. Thnx!

This is the concept, Ken Ishiwata always used for his Listening sessions

Used it on the lsr305 jbls made the imaging more pin point than it already was. Thank you

Brilliant Ron - really really helpful and thanks for the PDF.

Important video. I know a movie theater audio engineer who uses waveguides in his theaters. By pointing the surrounds on the left wall exactly on axis toward the seat furthest to the right he achieves plus or minus 1/2db multi channel imaging to every seat in the theater. (lookup HPS4000). He’s been doing this for 30 years!

I design pro audio systems for churches performing arts centers etc. I have a laser that creates circular laser cones that can be adjusted so the cone is the same dispursion of the speaker. Then you know the coverage of the speaker within the room.and your seating position. Theoretically you are maximizing coverage levels across the width of your couch.

Thank you! Thought I was the only one who had noticed this a couple years ago.

ken ishiwata used to use pretty extreme toe in even on nonwave guided speaker.

Yep. Been doing this with my JBL and Kali waveguided speakers. Also helps with first reflections in my room.

That is what I have been experimenting over the past few weeks now with my DIY Open Baffle speakers. I have a 12" round waveguide with a compression driver and I have them toed in and no matter where I stand in the room or If I move around I still hear a clear center image and no variation in sound, specially HF's

I did it! And now everything makes total sense! I'm pretty convinced now that the majority of people don't place waveguide speakers correctly. Why did people complain about horn sharpness for all those years? Yup! That's right! Because it makes total sense if you place them correctly. My soundstage lacked a bit in height. Right now the height of the soundstage is about 2 feet below the ceiling. Before there was a ghost like imaging a voice that pops out of the air in the middle. Now it feels like i can stand up and touch the singer. I can laserline trace the image now like you said. Thanx for the tip! Cheers, NV.

I have a really wide sectional. Would extreme toe in also work if I gave them to the widest part of the sectional? Klipsch rf7 iii

Great tips ! Lazer pointer tip was like the clouds parted. Never even considered it yet it's quietly resting in my tool box... I know what I'm trying tonight 😁. Fantastic vid... Thanks,Ron.✌️

Great content. This useful tip solved my left reflection point with my Ls50 Metas.

Was that Karate or Tai Chi you were doing at 0:20?

This is amazing! Thanks for sharing! I tried this with my Elac UB5s...Feels like a sweet soundstage spread out in front of me...I'm used to more of a "headphone" type experience. This is nice. Speakers disappear. 👍. I’m sharing with all my friends to experiment.

Yes it works very well with some speakers. Zeos Pantera talked about it about a year ago.

I have Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. These are wave guide speakers. The owners manual advises to set the toe in so the intersect a foot or two in front of the primary listening position. It also states 15 degrees off axis to the center of each speaker. This aligns closely to what you are saying. I find the off axis listening is the best I have experienced. I can walk around the room and still have a center sound source.

Thank you, thank you.....SO cool! Don't know if it has been answered here already, but to what extent could this benefit (if at all) standard - or non-wave guide - speakers? I'll try it anyway to see what it does in my tiny and tonally messy living room.

Will this work with any speaker that has a tweeter driver sunken below the front baffle surface? I have Zu Omen Dirty Weekends, and I don't think they describe the tweeter assembly as a waveguide, but they do sit well below the surface like the S400's.

I did this very thing with my car tweeters in the late 80s.

So, I tried this with a simple Bose Cinemate system, and this honestly worked wonders. I know, Bose sucks...just using it for movies until I get my real system hooked up again. This really made things a LOT better. Thank you.

Dr. Hsu told me how to do this back in 2009 with his HB1 mkII...they really disappeared a friend of mine with a pair of Fusalears was shocked at the imaging to add to it i was running both of the singled ended Mini Watts which really stepped up the soundstaging even more. Technically many speakers have waveguides these days dual concentrics could benefit from this as well...but some speakers wont need as a severe toe in as the s400 or Hsu Hb1 mkII.

Amazing. I tried this extreme toe-in and, OMG. I never knew my Focal Aria 926, are this capable. Thanks.

Hmmm...how do you rate this for Surround Sound? I. Currently trying it out for my Surround Rears in my 7.2.4 Atmos system. Not sure how much difference it makes yet...

I'm going to try doing the extreme toe-in on my open cone dipole single driver speakers! The open single drivers are only half in the box to warm the open sound without closing it in. The driver is mounted from zero to 2" out of the box and the sound comes out at all directions (directly heard from the cone). Bass and med are still at regular level! It's an oversised box and the speaker hole is bass vent treated (so it's NOT BONKY)! And in the upper med it's an ACOUSTIC NIGHTMARE to set the driver up without severe peaks (@ like 1-2 khz). (Not for the faint hearted and probably as hard to do as horns). Wadding in the box helps but a I don't put much in, for more reverb. But you need some to help with the peaks. 😅 Also (onother important innovation) my 5" FR drivers have cutaways for extra khz. I cut 8mm slits (right through the cone) with 5mm gaps (that are not cut) like 3mm out on the cone from the cente (right around). And I also done it again, like 1 cm out (all around). This improves treble RADICALLY! 😅 How do my speakers sound. Open, yet warm, the holy grail of open speaker sound. Spatial and holograpics on steroids and reverb on steroids (that is, if there is any in the recording). With rrcordings like Moondance by Van morrison, you simply are not going to get that, 😅 And everyone who has heard them like them. Try it. Get some Cheapies (like my $8 FR drivers) and some big boxes and try. My crossover filter for the single driver consists of a 2 mf cap and a small inductor in parallel. The better the driver, the smaller the inductor (rule of thumb). My inductor is 0.47 mh for the $8 single drivers (way too big for a Tang Band or Fostex). You can also try a 3 mf cap. 😅 And I stll would have the guts to try my cutouts on Tang Bands. 😅 Better transient response in the top end! Won't cost much at all to try it but it's just a bit hard on the positioning of the driver (on both mouting method and critical positioning). But when you get it, you will have about the best speakers in the world. Bass venttube is only about 3-4" deep (in the speaker hole). Point source so pure that even the bass refex port is point source! With a BIG box you don't need a woofer to spoil the pure point source sound. It's holograpic @ another level! But they are NOT party speakers (don't crank 'em). The cone will move too much (under bass strain) and make the med sound harsh (due to the Doppler effect).The speakers EXCELL on string quartet type stuff (not cranking doof). 😅 Well recorded strings are definitely @ another level (probably even "better" than real). A good holographic demo video: "Ain't No Sunshine" by: meira. It's cello MAGIC through my single driver whacko speakers. 😅

Works very well with the lesser, Klipsch R-820-F. Thanks for the video and education!

BEST TIP EVER! ....and absolutely logical. THX Man!

Hey, very interesting video. I've recently upgraded my Klipsch rp-600m's with Dannys Richie's upgrade kit plus some other tweaks like bypass caps, and driver dampening. I like what I'm hearing so far, except, center image and soundstage. There is probably some burn in still needed on my miflex bypass caps. But they have overall a good 100 hours playtime. I have a semi small listening room like 12-15 ft. listening 8-9 feet away. I probably have my klipschs' toed in about 30 degrees pointing at maybe my shoulders in the sweet spot. My question is should I consider serious toe in like as in crossing in front of my body in the sweet spot? Love any feedback from anyone who's got the klipsch rp6000m especially the upgraded versions, as they are a different animal.

this is in the manual for the Spendor BC1 from the late 1960s

Amazing ! It works with the Elac debut 2 5.2 THANKS

I would love to see Danny start to build some speakers from scratch with CD horn/waveguide loaded MR/HF. Especially the unique passive crossover design considerations. Horns are HOT in the home hi fi market as you've been discovering !

Crazy, it does firm up my center image. My seating position is probably too close and not exactly on center, so this actually helps. Speakers are B&W 683 S2 so not even the wave guide-iest of wave guides.

What a great recommendation 👌. I have Studio 530s. Now I can really enjoy them. Wonderful sound stage and improved center. Not perfect but pretty damn good.

do you think this is something that it's worth experimenting with other speakers too? I love my elacs 6.2 but Im not thrilled by their imaging and I cannot understand if it's them or the room

Looking at the comments I see many people doing this with the wrong kind of speakers. It may work for your imperfect ears, but most likely it will introduce other problems that you may or you may not notice unless you have a reference system to compare it to. There are many types of waveguides, and this setup is meant to work with Constant Directivity Speakers and not just every speaker with a waveguide on the market. Constant Directivity Waveguides work together with the Midbass driver and the crossover to provide guess what, constant directivity not only at the frequencies the tweeter produces but also the upper frequencies of the midbass driver and especially at the crossover point. Constant directivity speakers will have a waveguide on the tweeter equally large or larger than the midbass driver. For the other types of speakers, regular toe -in or straight facing placement (refer to your speaker's manufacturer for this) will most likely be better.

I used this hack on my klipsch rp280 horn type speakers and it works like a charm. Left and right most listening positions got better soundstage.

Does this work with most speakers? Got Q Acoustics 2050i (+ centre, surround, 2 subs).

I've tried this extreme toe in, where the left speaker points to the right, and the right to the left, but I find the center image to be, not straight from left to right, but a bit off focus. So I've reverted to slight toe in, where the tweeters slightly point to my ears. This is a pair of KRK Rokit5's.

Very good video. I have listened like this for many years. My KEF Metas got a very good off-axis response but I still prefer to listen to them with heavy toe-in.

I did play with toe in with my LRS, I found that toeing in too much reduced the soundstage. I was able to fine tune the toe in so the centre is pin point in the middle and retailed soundstage too. Toeing in too much also meant the off axis sound was really off. Ron has given me an idea, I’m going to turn my speakers 180 degrees and see what they sound like. Sounds crazy but why not experiment. At the moment the sound is imaged behind the speakers, I wonder if the change will make the sound project towards the front

this made me stop messing with my gear and just listen to music

I don't have waveguide speakers (I have Elac b6.2 and some old Mission 774 floorstanders), but I'll give it a try. Any thoughts on how non-waveguide speakers will respond to this?

I've been doing this on my Klipsch RP-160Ms for quite a while. Occasionally there will be sidewall reflection issues, which some first reflection room treatment would easily resolve. Especially useful if you're setting up on the long wall and trying to cover the shallow, wide space evenly.

The phantom center returns!!!

Hi Ron, great observation. I have been practising extreme toe-in because of floor standing speaker (non-wave guide type) proximity to walls that I can't avoid. The other subtle trick I've employed is to place thick anti-vibration pads under the front pair of feet to cause the speaker elements to face up about 10deg. I wonder if this would compensation for reflections off the floor/ceiling as you mention?

Ron, interesting video. Helpful. For what its worth, at last years Rocky Mountain Audio Festival, klipsch was showing their RP600M in their room with the speakers extremely towed in, so much so that I asked the rep at the show why they did that because it looked odd and at the time ridiculous to me. No other vendor had their speakers towed in like that which is why it surprised me.. I think their response was around trying to get a better sound for the people sitting in the small room. Its nice to come full circle and get a new perspective!

I tried several different positions with my monitor audio silver 600's, Yes I locked in better depths when going extreme ( used madonna's "celebration") where her opening is very obvious left right and bongos of to the right. However I also lost a lot of sound stage and seemed to lose a good portion of tonality. So I for one will stay with a slight toe in. Thanks for the info, it was fun experimenting.

Thanks again Ron for a great and informative video. It’s one of those videos that make you go...........Hummmmmmmm🤔🤔🤔 I’m trying it with my S400’s tomorrow.

This is new to me! Thanks for the info bro! I can imagine the physics involved! That's why in commercial movie theaters the sweet spot is large!

This works for non waveguide type speakers as well.

Ron, you should be doing this audibly, not with the lasers. Sit in front of the right speaker. Play a recording with a center soloist. Gradually toe both speakers in until the center image recenters. It's called time/ intensity trading and is the basis behind the DBX Soundfield One speaker from Mark Davis.

Tried . I felt center image and depth got More benefit over wider sound stage.

I bought furniture sliders to put under my JBL Studio 590's a week ago. This video kicked me in the butt to finally put em under them and start playing with speaker placement. In my case it was NOT free to play with speaker positioning, the alternative being to throw out my back each time I move the 590's. Cause you can't drag them, it might break the feet. But yeah, furniture sliders, they're cheaper than throwing out your back by a long shot, and no I'm not just going to leave the sliders under there. I'll take them out when I put the 590's in a more permanent setup.

Great video. I have ADS l710 which are known for having a wide dispersion, no wave guide, and were “meant” to be placed facing straight forward from the wall. I have found this to be the case in a large rectangular room. And yet… I found that in a smaller setup, aggressive toe in works wonders to reduce unwanted wall reflections and widen the sweet spot. This makes me wonder if the crossing streams is the way to go with most speakers in a near/mid field small room setup.

Wow man! You are totally right. Im not kidding. ...Just did this on my Klipsch and the sound improved ALOT :-D ?? Especially Soundstage , bass and midrange. Anyways... big big ty ! :-D

The Bose 701 Series 2 have an angle at the tweeter and the sonajero box at the back is angled to reflect sound. This makes the speaker box not have to be angled.

I toe in until the sides of my waveguide are at 90 degree's to the listening area, then back off until its right for your distance. You can realy dial in a zone that way. This is the way to use horns properly and has been around for a long time.

Ron, I do just this with my Klipsch Chorus ll, and my Studio 590 JBL. Read up on Dr. Earl Geddes papers pertaining to constant directivity. Great stuff!

How much toe-in do you use with your NX-Oticas which also use a waveguide?

Thnx very much! Does a big deal with my A500’s 🎉

Always the very best, Ron. your always the best. Welcome to fatherdom. They grow up so fast. My little daughter is already 28, and I am so proud of her. She is very successful. I always love your videos. Always informative.

Anyone have any feedback with 590's in a Home theater set up regarding this extreme toe in regarding when a center channel is present? Don't want to start the heavy lifting if it's a no go for home theater applications.🤔🤔🙄😬

Have the RP-600Ms and ended up finding this out by mistake. I turned the toe-in back to "normal" because it just seemed kind of silly, and then ended up changing them back to extreme toe-in again because it just sounded so much better.

I have seen this being done at audioshows, in fact last year i saw mr ken ishiwata do that to a pair of sonus faber that were played with his marantz gear, they were toed in so much that they were crossed before the first row middle seat

Nice!! Free to try. I will, even with my non-waveguide speakers... I don't suffer poor sweet spot imaging but if it preserves that and improves outside the sweet spot imaging then its a win, win... :-)