kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mNakacaovqzIqKc.htmlsi=UKDPqL4WLi_oTjEP This is the video that influenced this video. It's a brilliant video by Amir that discusses his AES approved paper on DAC's and how price really doesn't correspond to performance. Breaks everything down in a very understandable way. A must watch 🤓

Another wonderful episode with amazing information. Love the super subtle holiday vibe. :-) Mr. Third, I love what you do and this one is particularly important. Great work. Merry Christmas from Massachusetts.

Great video Paul, thanks so much for your content buddy. Merry Christmas and Happy NY to you and the family!

I have that Topping L30 II. Excellent thing. When comparing headphone amps, I quickly realised the market is serving very different needs. There's us, the producers who crave signal cleanliness, but then there's the audiophile consumer who wants an amp in order to hear some new magic in "Aja". The audiophile consumer wouldn't be necessarily be impressed by Topping; in order to choose an amp, they demand to hear a difference, not the same thing as pure as possible. So they may well love that Neve box, and Neve will insist on selling it at 499 because if they sold it at 100 to undercut the Topping on account of being less good, those customers would think Neve was circling the drain. For those audiophiles, paying an eye-watering price might actually add to how much they love it everytime they plug in, such is the perverse power of consumer economics. But if Neve and the audiophiles are both happy about it, then there's no reason for me to judge these sickos

Excellent Paul! Thank you! (and a happy holiday season to you and yours) ~~~~ !!!

Happy Christmas to you & yours, Master Paul! From chilly & festive Ireland! ☘💪🏽👀👍🏽☘

Finally got round to watching this and very pleased I did. A really excellent, balanced, well researched and thought provoking video. Very good.

Put the Neve branding on a golf club increase the price by $500

I just had a situation with my RME UFX for the first time in 10 years since I purchased. The service was incredible and the repair was done extremely fast and considering the hardware that needed to be swopped out very very reasonably priced - in fact really cheap considering - the unit sounds better than ever. I am so happy that I went with RME and considering their after sales service and commitment to their users regarding drivers for legacy products well worth the price. So yes! Mr Third makes a valid point. Great video:)

Clear and very useful information. Thanks for putting this together.

Don't you just love the idea of "professional pricing"?

This was a gooden 🍻 merry xmas 👍

Wow @PaulThird you have impeccable timing, I was running into needing a HP amp today, and started to research when I saw this! I have the same Audient so I'll take your suggestion. Thank you for this, that's a creepy level of ESP to know what I was starting to search for... LOL!

Thoughtful and insightful video. Subbed!

SOS has done some interesting blind shootouts. For example the Art pro mpa 2 won or was preferred against a Neve and other expensive preamps in one of them.

That was informative! Thanks, Paul!👍

😂 Paul I love ye mate.. you the funniest audio dude on the tube. I couldn't say that distortion in triplet. I've just have up I think? I just make my mad music and remember how hard it was in the 90s to get into a studio that I had no way to touch the buttons (luckily my mate had a wee studio using a Roland 880X digital console) so it was good in the way that you had to make sure your vocal or guitar track was first class so the engineer didn't start throwing his hands in the air. My point 'I'm just glad I can do it in my room'.. keep crushing mate. Jack.

Paul; post more. I look every day for a new “Hollooooooo!” We all need more Paul Third stuff. JS.

Very good video!!

Long live the king. Fantastic information Paul

Thanks for the info! Other examples of gear with a wide variety of price options are monitor controllers. What monitor controller do you recommend? (for example, the Dangerous Monitor ST is 2500$ / Crane Song Avocet is 3600 / the Drawmer CMC3 is only 700$)

Thanks for Video . Yeah those item`s prices seem move in "out of reach" direction for hobbyist and importantly for people who lived outside US and EU . So for us the options would be stacking more plugins and hope the best LOL . Another approach will be DIY build routes

Would love to try out the Topping gear. But I wonder how the driver support for their AD/DA will compare to the RME level of customer service? Especially as the Apple silicon Mac OS keeps steadily updating in the future.

Great piece of information Paul 🙂 ... The TOPPING L30 II Headphone Amp looks great, can I ask would this be ok to use with a headphone splitter? .. Also what would you suggesting would be a great alternative to the old M-Audio fast track ultra, that would take into account the use of a headphone out device? I use the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro Studio Monitor Headphones, 250 Ohm, do you think that this would all work together well? . Thanks and all the best 🙂

still it will add to total sum 😃 great style in introduction just like it is with current Music that needs to catch attention in first 20-30sec. Great Video

This guy is faw-king kool! Just subscribed.

Thanks for this video

Great video thank you! I have an audient ID4 and i m planning to try the vsx headphones (32 ohm). In the video from Krause i ve understand that the audient can t run properly Low impedence headphone. A topping l30 Mk ii is the solution i guess

Nice work!

thank you for this informative video

I have the rnhp amp and im loving the smooth sound from it. Im noticing the low noise but for me its worth it. I also have a audient interface but to me the neve sounds better. Changed to a 120ohm headphone later and the noise from the neve disappeared.

Great stuff Paul! Do you know anyone who measured the Ifi Zen Can headphone amp?

Amazing video 👌🔥🔥🔥

Fully happy with my Lynx Aurora (n) it was that or the RMI AD series. I chose the Lynx for its modularity for expansion and open interface options. What annoyed me about interfaces was that most other options out there were pushing what they called either thicker warmer or heavier crisper feel?!?! I wanted as clean and as much of our amplification of my incoming hardware with customer support and flexibility.

Think I'm in the Third camp 😂 Although I can't buy anything until I've read every review on the internet. That goes for everything from audio gear to a kitchen spatula. 😅

I got my BABYFACE at launch, long time ago, still works perfectly, only problem I had was the breakout cable extension, and that’s not actually from RME, and by the way the BABYFACE has been in my carry-on bag all the time and been around the world many times, still works perfectly, still gets very regular firmware and driver updates, best piece of audio gear I ever bought. Give my regards to Dundee, born and brought up there, was part of the original Dundee Dance Factory, FAT Sam’s and all that, many moons ago…..

I agree on everything, but one thing: headphone amp output impedance doesn’t change headphone frequency response on flat impedance headphones. Check your headphone impedance curve. Flat impedance headphonse react to different amp output impedance in terms of power at any given frequency. I have an SMSL SU-10 DAC, feeding a Topping A70 pro (balanced mode) output on an Hifiman Arya Stealth, calibrated with a GRAS mic system and eqed with a convolution eq up to 10 kHz (also crossfeed going on). Trust me, there’s not even a pinch of non linearity.

Interesting stuff Paul. I had never even heard of Topping before. Got beyer dynamic dt 880 pro 250 ohm semi open back headphones a couple of years ago. Found that the Scarlett 2i2 (yes I am cheap) could not drive them to adequate levels so I got on SW and picked up a Mackie HM4 headphone amp for like 40 or 50 bux. It seems to be ok but your video has me wondering how badly it stacks up specwise. The output resistance is 47ohm which should be fine for a 250 ohm headphone but not enough for the 600 ohm version. Distortionwise I have no idea. As I said it seems "ok", but I have often wondered if I am shortchanging these headphones?

The price of the Hylo seams to be much higher than when I was looking at it some years ago wow!

I started using a monitor mix going through my palmer monicon L when I stream. The headphone out on the presonous AR12 is kind of meh for the headphones I own (low ohm) on the palmer its really good, no need to gain up much

I had a friend that was doing his PhD in music technology...and one of his jobs at the Uni was to do the "measurements" and to make the attractive "science" for the manufacturers ha. which is why that school has big buildings down town for their music technology program.

I'm very happy with my Topping DX3 Pro+ :)

I'd be curious to see a component comparison on the products you mentioned. Just for fun.

I distinctly remember discussing the topping dx7p+ with you on Christmas day last year. do you use your heaspgones more in winter to keep warm or something? all the best to you fella.

the Chi-Fi scene is crazy right now. I have $25 IEMs that are some of my fave monitoring setup these days.

I use the ADI-2 FS for monitoring measured at THD (-110 dB), but as a drummer all I know is that when I mix overheads and start to hear cymbals their way to fucking loud!

And things can change unfortunately. I invested heavily into UA much because of their excellent customer service. Which was from my experience great. Now it has turned into absolute garbage as they started having an identity crisis. As you mention though there are a lot more costs to running a business than just producing the products. Some of them will invest more heavily in their brand, marketing, staff, design, offices, support etc. and they will need to put a higher price tag on their products to be able to maintain that. Others keep a lower profile and are able to make gear that is as good or better at a lower price. A few manages to find a perfect balance there. Yamaha is a good example. A huge stable company who continues to put out quality stuff at excellent prices. You have to admire them for that. Whenever I see their brand on something I know that it might not be the best product in the world, but it will be worth the asking price.

Hey Paul! Have you tried the new Realphones 2.0? It is quite amazing imo, would love a review.

About headphone amps, I find it funny that people would brag about the HA not being good

Paul can I ask you.. Do ye use the ADDC on converting your track as a final render? Or can you use it before the sound card when recording voice or amps either DI Or in through XLR say? What I mean is 'when would I use it in my wee set up' Cheers Paul. Jack.

I strongly recommend to get a great interface in the first place... it will scale great with anything you throw at it for a long, long time, without needing to replace parts of its functionality with specialized units. My second interface was a RME Babyface Pro and based on the numbers, there really was (and is) no rational reason to upgrade (but who says I'm rational?). My "best" headphones are 250 Ohm from Beyerdynamic (DT 1990 Pro). That's about 500 Bucks worth of Headphones and the T.H.D. is at 0,05 % (1mW/500 Hz). According to the specs my good old RME Babyface Pro (Max power @ 0.1% THD: 60 mW) is able to run it at very decent levels (0,01 mW are required at 75 dB, 0,05 mW are required at 85 dB, and 2,51 mW are required at 102 dB (I don't monitor that loud on headphones - ever)) without breaking a sweat. So if I was to mix on headphones, I highly doubt the distortion would determine wether my mix was awesome or not. I genuinely believe that buying an ADI-2 Pro (for speakers) or an L30 (for headphones) only makes sense if 1. You use it as your main monitoring path (not a secondary to "check things"), 2. You are a professional that can hear the grass grow, 3. Your Monitors(and room...)/Headphones ALLOW you to hear the grass grow, 4. you have the money to spend. Merry Christmas to you and yours, Paul! Have a beautiful and wholesome time! PS: Important video! I doubt many people can follow the math though (I use a website to do the math for me).

Hi Paul, I've just purchased a fiio K7 and waiting to receive it. I don't really know nothing about specs, so I've followed a few reviews and threads about it. My question is, having myself an evo8, do you think that the fiio's conversion is so much better than the Evo? My doubt exactly is that I probably only need a very clean headphone amp. What do you know/think about this? I count on trying to connect the outs of the evo to the fiio's amp and check the difference, but I only have my ears to judge, and someone like you could really help in this matter. Thx

What I take from this video is some people waste money on headphone amps. Even something like the toppings are a waste of money. Most end users are listening to music on airpods off an iphone and having a crappy headphone chain is perfectly fine for referencing mixes, recording, etc. in a studio. Save the precision for proper monitors in a treated room.

As a fellow nerd-- your content is amazing. Non-related to your video, do you think Tom Morello ever worried about any of this?

I totally agree: the price these days should justify the quality and service of the product rather than technical spec. Spec is practically meaningless now. But you don't want your nice piece of gear braking down on you.

Paul Third💕i m a beginner mixing engineer but a producer with 10 years experience. I use apollo twin and apollo solo. Do I still need topping? I dont mind paying to get a better detailed sound and quality experience, I love what I do. I wanted to know is it for people who dont own an audio interface?

Yes, of course, but the best old guitar amplifiers like 70s marshalls and stuff like that was much more expensive before. They were all priced like suhr and friedman amps of today because they were really well built and serviceable. Buying a 70s Silver Face Fender is really good value for money if you want it to last your lifetime which music gear and instruments actually provenly does. Try that with being a car hobbyist or race carbon fibre bikes in the weekends. And yeah, Marshalls have been worse since 1983. Psionic Audio is like Dan Worrall of guitar amps. That channel is really interesting and it's great that it romanticises the appeal of vintage stuff. Young music people of the internet love to say that nothing matters anymore and hate tone geeking. And about distortion, Paul: I have this quite unproven theory that distortion can be like how dust in a barn or smoke on a scene can help you trace rays of the sun comming through the crack in the wood or the spotlights. We can definitely hear the shapes of transients or dynamics in volume on it's own but distortion might just us further. That nonlinearity of distortion changes the frequency of the element as dynamically as the volume itself and according to my theory we're sensitive enough to that that it actually helps us hear things more clearly in a way. You know, 3d quality in tube mics and such. Some signal are clearly up close and some are more back in the room and the way the preasures differs, the distortion colours different volume and transients in way that we're sensitive to. Because it's actually hard to deny that 3d thing and it must come from something and we can really only measure that tube mics are more saturated when they're really well made tube mics and are compared to really well made counterparts. I also think that the typical great tube cicruits has a nonlinearity that is the perfect nonlinearity for this. I think of it as an distortion equivalent to a soft knee or something like that, compared to a hard knee clipping thing. That type of smooth knee thing is also related to the "high resolution" thing that is another expression. Full wide range in that soft knee thing. I think it's dust in a barn and it also makes sense with that too much tubes in chains sort of become too much dust in the barn. Like pre Abbey Road Beatles tube boards that weren't as clean as Abbey Road. But that later solid state desk they need to be relearn their workflow because the overdrive was much more sudden hard clipping than the tubes. Sometimes, I also think it could be purely low-mids that might be more directional and more 3d to our ears. Wow, I wrote that fast, and sloppy, because it's really intriguing stuff, and it's related to some of those special acoustica channelstrips colours and such. But I very much see your point of this video of course. I mean especially on the topic of monitoring. But if ever distortion ever would be even not only bad in monitoring it would be something this? Probably not, this was much more for another topic.

Do you have a video on gain staging… would be good to have your input on the topic 👍

Music/mixing is also subjective. Senses are not equal. We hear and perceived things differently regardless of objectivity.

If you want Elma switches for easier recall, it’s like an additional $2,500 added to the price, just for some knobs. lol

SSL yeah...had that one. Exact, noise.

🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾

"SEX times the power!"

I gavcce up hardware a long time ago just because it was frustrating not being able to get the toys I REALLY wanted due to the pricing. Now if I add up all the plugins I have the total would be way less of what a proper Moog costs. My ears just isn't hearing anything I'm missing when I hang with my hardware audio bubs.

Topping needs to make an interface, or at least an ADC. The comparison with Lynx doesn't really seem all that relevant just because the DA side is way more than good enough and it's not why people are paying that much. Doesn't make any of your points less true of course but I'd love to see something like that just to raise the stakes for the other manufacturers.

I just splashed out 1200 pounds on an rme ucxii. When it arrived I wondered what on earth in there could be worth that money. I found out they use the high end sabre dac chips, oh so that explains everything. Out of curiosity I checked on the price of these chips. 3.50 UK pounds.. What!

Paul, what about the longevity of these Chinese Topping products???

I saw in the comments that you have Topping E4x4, what kind of latency performance are you getting in studio one, with windows? Supposedly RME has really good USB drivers, and presonus with their quantum, had even better performance but that is over thunderbolt.

Some dude took apart all these famous guitar amps and found out it was a scam and that the companies were lying and making shite up

👍😎‍‍👍‍‍

its the same thing with audio interface i only belive in rme and rme stuff they dont lie

But are measurements the end all be all metric for how good we perceive something to be? You seem to be worried about distorting the distortion, the input not matching the output, but that's exactly what you do when you eq, compress, saturate a track. "But it's a headphone amp, it's not mixing" IMO it's just another link in the chain of the real thing that's recorded and the reproduction I actually hear. The same is true for a mic preamp. Imagine you learn through experience mixing through a more linear headphone amp makes it easier to make the mix translate to other systems. Great. Does it mean it will sound the best though it? No. We need to stop letting measurements "inform" what we like and start using measurement to better understand what we actually like.

👏👏👏👏👏

The pricing of RND gear in general is just absurd at this point. I’m a long time Neve fan but it’s very irritating. That being said I own quite a few of their hardware pieces. Luckily, I purchased a lot of hardware before the crazy price increases in recent years. If you’re gonna drop the big bucks, I’d rather opt for some of the BAE hardware which is insanely well built and truly sounds incredible.

Ya everything is so good now so don't get sucked into paying for a logo.

I heard an "audio reviewer" the other day who was reviewing an iem cable (a $300 cable) that had 2 different types of material twisted (silver and copper) He claimed that he could hear the sound arriving at his ear faster through one material than the other 😂

I just strap two guitar amps to my head, this way the distortion is audible and i am not tricked.

Prices are quite a joke (look at RND DI). Used prices of "vintage" pieces are worst.

Hi mate, would i just run the headphone amp from my uad volt or directky from the pc? My beyerdynwmics arnt as loud as id like, cheers

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RND is overpriced. Especially the new MBT. $5,000 for a color box is nuts.

Do you forget that headphones do not have a linear frequency response.?

Who in their professional right mind would pair a $500 headphone amp with a cheap DAC and 33 Ohm headphones? Now I'm not defending any manufacturer that sells over-priced products but as a buyer who would do that? You would normally get a good pair of headphones then get a good DAC and only then consider a headphone amp if your DAC doesn't give you enough gain.

Disagree with the assumption of this video. In terms of the ratio of price to modern income music gear has never been cheaper. Manufacturers don’t have large margins on their products.

They are very wicked to consumers just because consumers cant build the gears they used

Boom for music production not coming coz people need more music only plastic and metal producers need to sell and make money

Everything is priced based on the market with occasional mistakes one way or the other.

Neve is among the worst at this

You major in the minors, just like every other armchair audio scientist. The only thing that matters with regards to THD+N, EIN and the like these days is… Can I gain-stage in a way that allows me to reach my amp’s sweet spot before I hear audible noise. That’s literally it.

I don’t really get those crazy super high end discussions. In my opinion the whole recording chain should be high end to profit from it. So starting with a very good room to record which will cost you crazy amounts of money. Then you’ll need maybe 120v high end preamps to profit from the 24bit headroom. Of course you’ll need top of the line cables. What doesn’t goes in can’t get out right. The solely reason for my monitoring is translation on different systems, so a club system for EDM, earbuds, car stereos, etc. Quality these days is really good compared to years ago it’s up to skills now, the nitpicking on perfection is nice if you work in a audio laboratory 🥼 😂

Agreed!

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