Weekly Ebike Tech chat January 12th 2024 Graphene Battery Technology - State of play

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High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes and Vehicles

High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes and Vehicles

6 ай бұрын

This is the High Voltage weekly e bike tech chat - This week I am looking at the current state of play for Graphene battery technology and how I see things developing over the next while. Love to hear your own views and experiences in the comments and on Discord.
If you want to get involved in the discussion you are welcome to do this via the Discord or the comments here. highvoltagekits.com/discord
Huge thanks to LUX / @lux-ambientmusic for allowing me to use their amazing sounds for this video. Well worth checking out.

Пікірлер: 35
@The_Privateer
@The_Privateer 6 ай бұрын
I remember... ~20 years ago(?) hearing about graphene (and carbon nano-tubes, for that mater) and how it would 'revolutionize' everything that used or produced electricity and heat. The current hype surrounding 'solid state batteries' seems to be following a similar story timeline, where we hear about an emerging technology that is decades away from actually being a part of our lives. I agree that 'someday' all of the incredible technologies that have been discovered in laboratories will come to fruition - there is no doubt about that. The question I am left with though is - 'Will it actually be within our lifetimes? That isnt cynicism, far from it. But what it will take to make that specific 'future technology' profitable in widespread use is for some motivating factor to emerge to justify dumping ungodly amounts of money into to developing a workable technology.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Good thoughts. Toyota say 2026 with scaling production 27/28. They have a pretty good track record of delivering. The Aluminum cells to go in things like phones are being made. We are twenty years into the development of this stuff now in an age where progress is accelerating. I'm optimistic or I would not have bothered with it. I think you more have a healthy skepticism than cynicism. The solid state dream has been around for a long long time. The current hype is because Toyota say they can deliver. 2026 is not far off. Cheers
@FalkonNightsdale
@FalkonNightsdale 6 ай бұрын
​@@HighVoltageKits If you google article on Drive "Toyota Develops More Efficient Battery, Tenfold Improvement In Capacity May Be Possible" from 2009, you'll find out, that this battery was supposed to be there around 2015… So Toyota's batteries are now for 15 years allways "5 years in future", surpassing even "Musk constant"…
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
There will be egg on their face in 2026 then.
@FalkonNightsdale
@FalkonNightsdale 6 ай бұрын
@@HighVoltageKits Nope, in 2025 they will announce, that they are making great progress and we can expect new cells in 2030, then in 2029 they repeat that, with addition, that it'll be better than Tesla SSB, the top tech cell unveiled in 2028…😸
@quantumfx2677
@quantumfx2677 6 ай бұрын
Just my opinion but I really believe that we haven't hit that over all close to perfect ebike yet, I would like to see a more compact ebike with 20 inch tires that has excellent adjustable suspension and comfortable seat with custom attachments for a trailer, a hidden rain top that can be used when needed to stay dry, saddle bags, pet carrier, room for a passenger, even an attachment that can turn into a stable reverse trike for older people that may need it. A snow kit, I could go on a bit more but sitting down with a think tank and really being next level and making it actually look incredible as well. The most comfortable compact customizable ebike ever made that can please just about everyone with multiple options.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
I think about this stuff all the time. I think you are right. The optimal bike is still to be made for the urban environment certainly. Offroad there are more options mainly due to looser regulations. I like the ideal of a modular frame that can be adjusted to accommodate different things when needed. Great comment. Cheers
@carscoffee5263
@carscoffee5263 6 ай бұрын
Can you build a diy sodium ion ebike batt to test on your channel?
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
I don't think I can stretch to anything very soon but I can put it on the list and if the budget stretches why not. If we can grow the channel more then anything is possible. Maybe a company will be interested in supplying the cells!
@johnarnebirkeland
@johnarnebirkeland 6 ай бұрын
I've been hoping for a breakthrough in lithium-air for a long, long time now. That would be a true revolution and allow all sorts of applications that are not practical today.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Is it still a long way off?
@johnarnebirkeland
@johnarnebirkeland 6 ай бұрын
@@HighVoltageKits Yeah. Lithium-Air has a theoretical energy density of about 11kWh/kg, so it would be incredible. But there are a lot of unsolved issues with charging and safety. Almost as if using oxygen in a battery could go horribly wrong... But one can hope.
@robburley9494
@robburley9494 6 ай бұрын
It is not enough to want higher capacity batteries you need devises that need it, that will not function without it, would battery tech be where it is now if wasn't for cell phones and there like. I was a Tomorrows world guy loved it.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Tomorrow's world is another classic! Loved that as well.
@cruelycruel1032
@cruelycruel1032 6 ай бұрын
There are already ebikes with graphene batteries, they say they will be commercially available this year, let's hope it pans out.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Cool. You got a link? Sounds promising!
@cruelycruel1032
@cruelycruel1032 6 ай бұрын
@@HighVoltageKits @rumblemotors very cool bikes
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
I will check it out. Cheers
@musicamaiz
@musicamaiz 6 ай бұрын
Doesn't johnny nerdout have some as well?
@markifi
@markifi 6 ай бұрын
paraphrasing thunderf00t here (i know he's a bit icky) but we are sitting at 200 Wh / kg, and for good reason: there's fuel and oxidiser in the same package in batteries. You need at least one atom to hold the charge, one atom to take the charge when it discharges, and you need to separate the two by something to stop it discharging on it's own. Also, you don't just need any kind of energy out, but electrical energy, which carries penalties on it's own. Battery technology is probably has as high specitic energy as it's going to get if you want to maintain safety, reliability, and charge-ability. Ten times increase in capacity would get you the same as termite! Same heat-capacity as water, same specific energy as termite, short circuit the thing and you have about 1000 degree C, perhaps not quite the melting point of steel, but hot enough to instantly ignite any nearby furniture just by convection, and if it gets extra atmospheric air it would get even hotter than that! i'm not one of those people who worry about spontaneous combustion near a button cell battery, but we have to consider worst case scenarios with this stuff
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
If you mean lithium ion being as good as it will get for safety wise maybe. For other chemistries we will have to see. I don't think we can say anything with any real certainty though. Things change fast. Take the US oil industry. They went from a decline to being the biggest producers due to new technology. Solid state lithium batteries are a bit of an unknown in terms of energy density. Different technologies manage heat more efficiently. It's going to be very interesting to see how this develops. Cheers
@markifi
@markifi 6 ай бұрын
the reason i'm pessimistic about this is not that we've been at the same 265 Wh / kilo we have been since 2011 (panasonic)@@HighVoltageKits rather it's a suspicion at a thermodynamic limit to the things. as for solid state, "nobel level research is needed" at least according to anonymus sources in the scorpion capital analysis of former staff members of volkswagen's quantumscape. (that's a sentence huh) we'll see of course, never say never. some sort of global orbital solar power stations using microwave to power things i would think much more plausible than this. charles stross had a good post about this a couple years back. "Fossil fuels are dead (and here's why) By Charlie Stross"
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
I have not seen anything to suggest graphene can massively increase capacity in lithium ion. More that reduced resistance and heat transfer could prevent thermal runaway. I'm not expecting miracles in capacity. I'm hoping for better safety, charging and manufacturing that is less toxic. Fossil fuels should be phased out. It's just they have alot of money to throw at staying around sadly.
@chillchilli2671
@chillchilli2671 6 ай бұрын
it's worth noting that a 52V graphene-based battery would have an equivalent output to a 52V lithium-ion battery. However, it's essential to recognize that any battery designed for high current discharge rates inherently carries risks
@EVGizmo
@EVGizmo 6 ай бұрын
you nearly lost me at 9:49 but last twitter post i read say they will be out in 2028ish which is still a decade before i will have a bike ready for a customer so i can understand
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Optimism mate. I think you can be earlier than that!
@trevoro.9731
@trevoro.9731 6 ай бұрын
What is the point of graphene ? I will only give a better power drained/capacity ratio, it can hardly increase the capacity itself.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Well in terns of a supercapacitor it massively increases the capacity by providing more surface area to store a charge. 1gram of it covers something crazy like over ten tennis courts. In terms of lithium if they can make them safer that would be the biggest thing. Less heat during use and less issues with thermal runaway. It could extend the life of a cell by more than double. That's a huge advantage. Cheers
@trevoro.9731
@trevoro.9731 6 ай бұрын
@@HighVoltageKits It affects basically the power output, and it is not critical once you get enough batteries, as with each single battery you can increase both the output and the capacity. With enough normal batteries, you would get only a very minor benefit. In terms of heat, they will be safer, but not as much as LiFePo4 or even more, LTO batteries or cheap and safe a sodium batteries (at the expense of less capacity).
@realeyesrealizereallies6828
@realeyesrealizereallies6828 6 ай бұрын
They say that far less than 1% of proposed or studied battery technologies ever make it to market..Which rings true if you've been watching these technologies for decades..I'm not a techno optimist..All of our technologies have horrific consequences..Those consequences compound and multiply, until a tipping point is reached.Which is why every civilization to ever exist has broke down, collapsed and died..Our technology can only be temporary..I have advanced degrees in chemistry and biology, worked in sustainable development for well over a decade..Once you understand the way everything works, then you can understand the future. "All of our exalted technological progress, civilization for that matter, is comparable to an axe in the hand of a pathological criminal" Albert Einstein "Every human civilization to ever exist, has been a losing race, to discover remedies for the predicaments that they produce" "It's no measure of health, to be well adjusted, to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti While it's a miracle to be alive, I have zero faith in technology, and use it to be as self sufficient as possible..
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
I love the Einstein quote. You are right on the technology. What choice do we have? Right now you could argue out future depends on technology that is yet to be invented. I am not sure every civilization can be classed like this. I know in Canada the local population lived very much in balance with the land. Maybe eventually they would not have. We didn't really give them a chance though. Back to the batteries though. I picked these because I have reasonable confidence in Toyota to deliver and the Aluminum is in production for small cells. In terms of our technologies having horrific consequences I think it depends. I remember a history lesson as a kid and we all said what diseases we had gone through as well as operations etc. Over two thirds of the class would have been dead if it had been 1900. But we are certainly living beyond our means and sometimes the future looks a scary place. Thoughtful and deep commentary. Appreciated.
@CamiloSantana
@CamiloSantana 6 ай бұрын
let's talk about products when they're something to buy and build with. until then, zero interest. so much online is in a constant race to steal my attention, I'm skeptical of anything that isn't practical.
@HighVoltageKits
@HighVoltageKits 6 ай бұрын
Yeah. I understand. This is partly why I looked at things that are in a production form or manufacturing already even at small scale. Hopefully you will enjoy other stuff more. Cheers
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