Maeglin just wanted to be A Song of Ice and Fire character instead.

"Yeet him from the walls of Gondolin" is my favorite phrase of the day, and I can't stop laughing.

The thing about the evil elves is they did a remarkably good job of killing themselves off by the end of the 1st Age.

What I got from the Silmarillion was that Elves don't just take to wearing "black hats" or line up outside the Angband recruiting office; but that all Elves have potentially fatal character flaws; and since they tend to be "more extra" than humans over just about everything, then they turn up the tragedy to levels that would leave Wagner and Shakespeare both in tears. I see it similar to how Star Trek portrays the different races. We're supposed to look up to the Vulcans because they are so cool, and logical with their high sophisticated culture; but they can be very aloof, arrogant, and even cruel, believing that they are superior to everyone. We're supposed to look down on the Klingons as slobbering, violent marauders; but they also have a strong sense of honor, family, history, and heroism. Thanks to DS9, even the Ferengi became interesting characters, and not just snivelling coin-clutchers. Back to Tolkien, I don't know when it happened, but at some poiint, I reached the conclusion that a Man becoming an Elf-Friend wouldn't be incredibly hard just because mere humans were so much weaker than Elves at almost everything; but that humans would have a hard time getting along with Elves because they were so different. Most Elves would likely see most humans as noisy annoying children who go around shouting, and breaking and changing things which ought to be left alone; who are too fragile to live long enough to become wise, and too stupid to even acknowledge their fragility and foolishness; and they probably wouldn't like the way we smell. Likewise, humans would likely see most Elves as arrogant, uncaring, and unwilling to help the "lesser" beings of Middle Earth, and seeing the Eldar as "privileged." Note that the only humans that the Eldar seem amenable to are the Dunedain, who are blood relations, or those who have sworn fealty in perpetuity, such as Hurin, and try to raise themselves up more like Elves.

I always viewed orcs as having two origins. The original orcs were corrupted elves, but once humans were created, Morgoth starting using them.

Love the use of “yeet” in a video about Lord of the Rings.

Morgoth would have tried to corrupt any elves he could. Noldor, Sindar, Keebler, … he didn’t care.

The most interesting thing about that last sentence regarding the War of the Last Alliance is that it suggests that there were Orcs who fought *against* Sauron. We know directly from the books via Shagrat and Gorbag that Orcs don't necessarily have blind loyalty to Sauron. It makes me wonder if that's where they're going with Adar in the show. I don't want to see Adar do a Marvel team-up with Arondir or something dumb like that, but exploring the moral grey area with Adar is interesting. And honestly, it lines up with Tolkien's own beliefs. The reason he changed the origin story of Orcs a few times is because he wrestled with the idea of Orcs being irredeemably evil if they are also one of God's creatures, even if they're corrupted. When Adar says to Galadriel in the show "we are made of the sacred fire, same as you" or whatever it was, that was kind of a high point for me.

I'd argue that the evils committed by Feaonor, Eol, etc. were worse because they didn't serve Morgoth. Rather, it was their own selfish desires, rather than thraldom to a dark master. First time I read the Silmarillion (which is quite the chore), I tried so hard to empathise with Feanor, or at least understand his motives. In the end, however, he was the ultimate hypocrite, declaring Morgoth is greatest enemy, yet causing more suffering to the Children of Illuvetar than most of Morgoth's servants combined.

I really like that the description of the Wars of the Last Alliance implies that there orcs who fought against Sauron. It’s weird that this isn’t brought up more in the discourse over non evil orcs

I think that a distinction can be made between being evil and serving evil. Serving evil, as in serving a dark lord such as Melkor or Sauron, was something that we don't see elves do willingly, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have deep moral failures. It's like how a British soldier in WW2 could have had no love in his heart for Hitler or the Nazis while still being a thief, a rapist, or a murderer.

A point I want to bring up is with Eol. He wasn't influenced by Morgoth to get the selfish idea in his head to put a spell on and kidnap his wife.

Unpopular opinion, but Maedhros is my favorite character in the entire legendarium specifically *because* of his moral ambiguity. He strikes me as someone who deep down really wants to do the right thing but can't always do so due to being bound by an evil oath.

Maeglin, Eol, Feanor, Curufin and Celegorm

I often wonder. If Tolkien's original idea for the creation of Orcs is correct, then do the Orcs also possess the longevity of the Elves-i.e. they live forever unless slain by weapon or mischance? Also, if Orcs die, then where do their fëa go? In fact, do they even have fëa?

I really thought the whole point of Tolkien's elves was that they'd already been offered grace by Eru Iluvatar. They can go to the Undying Lands any time they want; they just can't come back.

Eol is interesting. While undoubtable incredibly sinister, he lacks the pathological ambition seen in the other villains of the legendarium, including his son Maeglin. Indeed, ambition is what sets Maeglin apart from Eol. While Eol is highly possessive of what is already his, Maeglin has an insatiable desire for what is not yet his. Yet these tendencies lead father and son down the same path and both meet a common end.

That was a fun video. Thank you for clearing things up.

Let’s not forget that Galadriel was like “ew, my uncle & cousins just massacred a bunch of elves. BUT, I really want my own kingdom, so I’ll overlook it and go along with them.”

What actually is shown about evil elves in lord of the rings that despite their seemingly perfect nature relativley to humans, elves still have human nature and feelings, which may also cause them to choose evil. according to this video , the closest to dark elves in Arda are spirits of elves that avoided the afterlife, while the living versions of evil elves are either elves that got caught in a dramatic tragedy or broken souls that had no choice. This makes dark elves of other fantasy lores, possiblly lores that were inspired or copied Tolkeins work, more of orcs than actual elves. The closest to a dark elves realm in middle earth was EO's household , were the servants of this elven lord followed his weird ways and probably had similar personalities to their master. since EO hated light and used to live in a dark enchanted forest, if he had an elven host there, than they were peculiar folk of Sindari and maybe other elves that didn't had a connection to Eru and Valinor, and were envyius of their Noldor kin. So there you have it, if Eo was a lord with a host of elves, they were a group of dark elves living in a dark elves manor just like dark elves that appear in fantasy lore such as Denguons and Dragons

Turgon cost many thousands of his own people either death or life as slaves in Angband. He was so full of himself that he ignored Ulmo's warning that the Curse of Mandos was soon to be fulfilled. He thought he knew more than a Vala. If a god tells you to jump, your response should be "how high?"

Great video!

Sure. Caranthir, Curufin, Feanor, Eol, Maeglin, etc. They did things for their own gain that they knew were wrong, and didn't really care who was hurt thereby. That's evil to me.

Eol was a nasty piece of work.

I'm gonna quote another famous fantasy series: "Besides the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We've all got both light and dark inside of us. What matters is the part we choose to act on." Or, to put it bluntly, just because you don't serve the enemy, it doesn't mean you're a good guy. Feanor was definitely evil. Or let's look at real life. In World War II, we couldn't have beaten Hitler without Stalin, and Stalin was arguably one of the most evil human beings to ever live.

Kinda sad you didn't mention how Eol forged the twin meteorite swords but i guess it didn't really fit in the video, still when do you get chances to mention Eol

When I saw star wars episode 2 and then 3, both times I just kept thinking.....Anakin is Feanor in a Sci fi setting.

It’s important you pointed out that Tolkien says in Nature of Middle Earth that no elf ever served Morgoth or Sauron. Elves are not all good but none are corruptible enough to serve evil directly like dwarves, men and beasts. I believe Tolkien challenged his own idea of the elf / orc dynamic due to the (body and soul) Hroa and Fea of elves were inevitably inseparable and the Hroa incorruptible. Meaning Orcs don’t have souls and we’re not made from elves but in mockery of elves. Adar is a cool idea and well executed Tolkien “fan” character but not a character Tolkien would have written.

I think that no elves sided with sauron or morgoth but were still not all good. The way elves treated dwarves is a clear example of them not being wholly good

It’s a lot harder to choose to serve the devil when you can remember watching him get his ass kicked.

It's true that the Silmarillion makes Elves much more complex, but I'd be wary of overcorrecting one's perception - it deals with the very worst Elves and the very best Men, among others. The Elves overall are still our elder, greater siblings that ennobled the Men that encountered them in the first place (from the Avari to Finrod to the Elves assisting Numenor). Our advantage is in our current dominion over the world as a species, and our freedom through death and ultimately our guaranteed participation in the Second Music. That you can count the amount of times Elves killed Elves very quickly is a testament to their, by default, unfallen nature and inclination towards harmony and peace, and their loyalty towards Eru. Trying to count how many times Men (all fallen since the early Men submitted to Morgoth) kill other Men would be a futile affair.

“Were there evil elves?” Yeah his name was Faenor

I don't mind the parts where they are actually imaginative.

Few dwarves fought on either side but the kin of Durin the Deathless fought on the side of elves and men!

So that last bit about every race other than elves fighting on both sides... does that mean there were orcs fighting with the Last Alliance? Or Ents fighting for Sauron?

Thingol, Eöl, Maeglin, arguably Fingolfin during the kinslaying, Gwindor as an escaped slave in Nargothrond, Saeros, Thranduil when he captured the dwarves and kept them in prison. Of course Fëanor and his sons goes without saying. Did any elf directly and willingly serve in Morgoth's armies and fight on the side of evil? No (apart from one version where Maeglin was promised this but he probably would not have received it but he agreed to it at least.) But plenty of elves did evil stuff.

Dior? J'adore.

Eol was evil as was his son Maeglin. Faenor had an evil streak as well I would say

Interesting to think about 🧝‍♂️

thank you for pointing out that Tolkien made the elves ahve the same potential for evil and wickedness and petty behavior as anyone else without the need for invokign the supernatural.

Yes, but never pledged their loyalty to Morgoth or Sauron. Neither dark lord saw them as worth pursuing.,

It is hard to corrupt elves but it is by no means not impossible.

Well technically everything that went wrong in middle earth was from the direct incompetence of eru illuvatar and his proliferation in the the void

The closest thing Tolkien's world has to pure evil elves are Maeglin, and Eöl who was mostly just a pissy edgelord who didn't like the sun. Then there were Celegorm and Curufin who were just assholes, but they, like their brothers and father, would likely have never caused so much death and misery if Morgoth had just kept his grubby hands to himself. I wouldn't call Feanor evil. He was overcome with grief (death of his father) and rage (theft of his silmarils). I also wouldn't call him pure good, he was the original elf edgelord, but his life was never easy

Yes. Feanor.

Feanor did nothing wrong. Man's gotta protect his bling.

Ëol, Curufin, Celegorm, Maeglin, arguably Fëanor

I think per definition of the LOTR universe: no there were no evil elves. as none were aligned with Morgoth or Sauron ever. where there and elves? yes.

Elves used to hunt petty dwarves.

Feel free to look at the Silmarillion.

The evil elves were in the Vault of the Drow, everyone knows that

"Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' - and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret " - Letters 154 (To Naomi Mitchison)

i would not mention Thingol when talking about "evil" elves. otherwise, good video

Elves are easily swayed by magic, good or evil.

But this was the main difference between elves and humans. Elves never colaborated out of free will with Sauron or Morgoth unless they where tortured, forced and broken. In rings of power good and evil are not clearly defined. It is all a mush, and not even grey characters are defined nor are their motivations ade clear.

yeah, they called themselves the Teleri

Tolkien’s great flaw as a writer is that he states one thing but shows another. “Thingol was greatest in wisdom amongst all the elves of middle Earth”. Thingol then acts stupidly time and again.

Elder Scrolls did a great job of making it's races realistic instead of having monolithic alignments. There are good dark elves and evil high elves and vice versa.

Faenor and his sons.

Feanor was right!!!

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Eorl ?

Here's the thing. When it says that no Elves willingly served Sauron, we have to remember that the writings we have in the Legendarium are either from Elves, or Men who were in sympathy with Elves, or Hobbits who saw Elves as practically holy. Hardly unbiased sources

Very small elfs evil,they use mind control waves....

Amazon’s Rings of Power pretty much displays the Elves to be evil. Crazy adaptation

*cough* Feanor *cough*

*laughs in Fëanor and his sons*

Of course there were, they're called Orcs.

Oh hell yeah there were evil elves. Quite a number of the First Age elves are rat bastards. Faenor is, at best, utterly selfish and it does downhill from there. His sons are rough, too.

YES: FEANOR

Feanor wasn't evil. He was Eru's reincarnation in Elf form. Pure creation! His fall wasn't because of his evil nature but the Valar's lack of reaction against evil. If he wouldn't rush to the Middle Earth in such anger, then the Elves would live in Aman and the Middle Earth and the Mankind would forever be Morgoth's domain. His sons and kin contained Morgoth's influence from spreading the World, and Noldor's reckoning was the major reason for Valar's to help the Middle Earth.

I admit Feanor was a bad elf but not the worst, his sons Celegorm and Curufin were slightly worse and Turgons brother in law was the absolute worst

feanor is right there

Eol, Meaglin, Curufin, Feanor was definitely a pretty awful person as well

Most of them were not really good according to my morals. Almost all the sons of Fëanor were evil, except Maedhros. Fëanor was evil. Eol was evil. Many of the Noldor in Beleriand were haughty and lusted for power and riches. The non-Avari never bended under any dark lord however.

😑 , Y`ALL The Golum DIDN`T , so who do you think y`all are exactly?

The wights were NOT elves, they were the ghosts of men that died fighting for Angmar.

They're called orcs LOL

Amongst the things that I especially enjoyed about the much maligned Rings of Power was how twattish and dickish (to keep things balanced) so many of the elves were. Galadriel always banging on self righteously, endlessly demanding everyone support her plans to kill whatever. Other elves pratting about, lying to, using, trying to control all the people who they saw as "lesser than", which was everyone. Do elves have souls? Who cares! They certainly have great big bosomy Egos. That was done really well. As was Adar. He seemed always exhausted, as one would imagine he would be. Joseph Mawle and Charlie Vickers had the most fun and best written characters, and they so acted their little socks off that a good time was had by all. Bless 'em.

Adar was (imo) the best and maybe the only good character (i kind of like Sauron as well) from the rings of powers. He was the only one i wanted more from Eddit: i like to think Adar himself refuses Sauron but he loves the Orcs so much that he's forced to act as one of Saurons subordinats

Feanor did nothing wrong!

spoiler alert: Yes

Evil elves yes they are orcs

this is why the ring of power sucks. It centers around Galadriel. they wanted a woke tv series, and Galadriel would be perfect, but then screwed up her character, and turn her into a male of her family and made her stupid. She was suppose to be the wisest of all elves. Her brother and cousins went questing and did stupid things. SHe did not. Of the elves of her generation, in her family, she is the only one alive, and it is for reasons. (atleast from her generation that didn't leave the west)

90 % off all elfs are evil

Feanor is not evil. Not only his actions saves all elves, dwarves and the Edain in Middle earth, but the 1st kingslaying is also not his fault. Teleri started with the violence. Not saying the reaction was justified, but if the Teleri would just lend the ships to Noldor, nothing would have happend. They could always built more ships.

Why can't I skip this boring eye issue advert.