One theory about the mirror universe that I *can't* immediately disprove...is that we're living in it right now :/

I remember many years ago a Star Trek graphic novel, released before TNG, that showed the rise of the Terran Empire, the point of separation from the Prime Universe was the Earth/Romulan War, in the Prime Universe the war was fought entirely in space whereas in the Mirror Universe the Romulans invaded and conquered Earth. Eventually the Terrans overthrew their conquerers and the Empire was formed using the motto “Never Again” and started their own conquest of the Alpha Quadrant in order to ensure that humanity would never again be subjugated.

I remember the book Dark Mirror. Picard reads the end of Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" where we do get the pound of flesh. He then notices a Bible but decides not to see how that's different (IMHO a decision to keep from offending a christian reader). There is an observation that the stars are different. My theory is that there are fewer stars in Mirror Earth's galactic arm or something keeping Earth from seeing all the stars in the sky. Without the beauty of the night sky, humanity goes down a darker path. It may be cheese, but it does fit in with the themes of Star Trek.

I think the Enterprise cold open - despite being Terran propaganda - was intended by the writers to create a definitive framework and timeline for the Mirror Universe. This was required to establish the setting for "In a Mirror Darkly" and combined with the revised titles have the added benefit of summarizing events for any viewers who may not have seen the prior Mirror episodes. I mean, setting up the show is that's what a teaser is for.

I remember old novels written by William Shatner, where Kirk went to become the terran emperor. In this novels the point where both universes split, was the first contact, not because Cochrane shot the Vulcan, but because the crew of the Enterprise wiped the memories of Cochrane and his assistant but while in the prime universe this worked and they didn´t remember anything about the Borg, in the mirror universe this method didn´t work and Cochrane built the new alliance with the vulcans around the knowledge, that there are threats in the universe that can und want to kill the human race, so the humans need to be strong to survive in this galaxy. I always liked this version of the events.

FYI not a machine gun, that was a shot gun he used to shot the Vulcan.

Misconception: the assumption that there is one mirror universe. Star Trek has shown us glimpses of many parallel universes, different timelines, etc. Some have a single defined point of "divergence". Some are "alternate" timelines which had an "alternate" past and will have an "alternate" future. Each of these would have a unique "mirror" counterpart as well. And each mirror could itself "diverge" into any number of "parallel" or "alternate" mirrors. We can't even be certain whether the shows keep visiting the "same" mirror universes.

I had a co-worker years ago try to explain that the Kelvin Universe exists because of the events of Enterprise where they interact with the Borg causedhuge jump in technological understanding. This was also his way of way of saying Enterprise was no canon, but its a interesting thought.

I've also seen it said that the Terran Empire somehow had its roots, or rather, the point of divergence from the Prime Universe happened around the time of the Roman Empire. I think that's where that theory comes from. I don't think that was a machine fun Cochrane pulled. It looks more like a slightly futuristic sawed-off shotgun.

Good exploration of some of the origin theories of the mirror universe, including some I've not heard of before! I too subscribe to the Simon Pegg explanation for the Kelvin timeline, it's just so much simpler and eliminates the continuity issues

I more or less follow Rom's view in that the Mirror Universe "just doesn't make any sense." As you said the coincidences are astronomical and any historical change would cause massive divergences but nothing makes any sense. I mostly just turn off my brain and don't think about it or how the Empire or even any ship could remotely function and have any stability at all with everyone constantly trying to assassinate/backstab each other. If there is any "explanation" for it I would probably chalk it up to Q creating the dimension for the benefit of the Prime humans to ether taunt them and/or push them to correct the flaws they see in that exaggerated funhouse mirror.

I had always liked the concept set forth in the movie "Waxwork 2" of a parallel universe that was connected with our universe as a sort of playground/video game universe for higher beings to play around with, and the mirror universe was connected to prime universe with the Q (or some of them at least) being the entities responsible seems logical.

The Terrans are regular humans whose history had different events that diverged from the prime universe. I believe that the Gerco Roman empire never truly fell and continued on in some form thru out the centuries. Plus I think the arrival of the USS DEFIANT NCC 1764 in the mirror Universe caused a divergent timeline within the mirror Universe that showed up in Star Trek Discovery.

I agree with you about the last one - the idea that humanity can’t overcome its warlike impulses except with someone already from a better future coming and telling someone about it is just… so degrading. It’s definitely not an optimistic viewpoint.

Honestly I love this topic discussion so much I can’t wait to see more from the mirror universe

I'm sticking with my theory that the Borg and the enterprise-e going back in time is not a predestination Paradox it is a continuation of a now altered timeline or you can call it an alternate timeline it's up to you.

I like the idea that the Kelvin timeline has always existed - we've seen ships travel back in time and to the mirror universe in one fell swoop, it makes sense that the same could happen to the Kelvin universe.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Imagine travelling back in time to save your collapsing (galactic) Empire/Federation buuuuut you accidentally travel back to the wrong timeline and now you're forever lost! The Timeline in which you existed in prior is now harder to return to and the divergence points become ever so wider and further apart with each decision that is made by each entity that currently exists within that now parallel timeline now universe. Does this mean time travel is actually impossible? and only parallel universes/timelines exist.

One theory I heard about the Terran Empire is that it's pretty much humanity sans the empathy shown in the Prime Universe. That lack of empathy can explain things like the murderous actions they take against just about everyone they encounter and has been so prevalent to their society for so long that it's just how they operate on a cultural level.

I always liken the Mirror Universe to DC's Classic Earth 3 where everyone is culturally and psychologically more cynical.

Glad I just recently found this channel. I am loving catching up on your past stuff!

Back in the '80s there was a story arc in DC's Star Trek comic that said the Terran Empire grew out of a resistance movement that arose after the Romulans conquered Earth in the Earth-Romulan War.

You have to go to Futurama to figure out what went wrong in the Terran Universe, Bender didn't step on the first fish to walk on land.

"Which was neither Roman, nor Holy, nor an Empire." I almost choked with laughter 🤣

Awesome video! Thank you for your thoughtful approach to the Terran Empire origin question. I think you're right (later video I watched before this one) that an alternative US is the foundation of the Terran Empire. I appreciate your attention to historical detail and logical projection of how history could have been.

I think sometime in the distant past, a Dinosaur stepped and didn’t step on a small insect. That is to say, the universe where it did step on it is the Mirror universe and the one where it didn’t is the non-mirror universe. Let’s call that insect a proto-butterfly. ;)

It has always bothered me how there were duplicates of basically everyone especially when you get to end of it in DS9. All the deaths, Smiley's missing wife and kids, and everything else. In my mind, either the mirror universe split at a certain point and continued to become more and more different, reinforced by DISCO season 3 saying it was "moving away" (my head canon is to force all shows into one continuum) or all Star Trek universes are free standing variations of the multiverse like you brought up. For this "fiction" to be "true", I'm pretty sure your take is correct..."but I don't like it". Excellent video again. Thank you!

This is easily my new favorite channel. Such excellent Star Trek content, that's funny as well. Keep up the great work 👍 👏.

Your production quality is quite good and I enjoy the way you tell the story about the space geek subjects I love. Please, go on...

The Enterprise mirror darkly Hoshi was hot.

I still think the biggest misconception is that the Trek Mirror Universe diverged from the Trek Prime Universe. The multiple differences together with the multiple similarities that are both inconsistent with a temporal divergence suggest they are simply parallel universes sharing some basic "metaquantum" links.

OrangeRiver , I love Star Trek and I love all Mirror Universe episodes. Having said that, I must confess that there is only one real issue with the Mirror Universe concept. That issue is the fact that after just one generation of people in one Universe behaving different, it would be extremely unlikely if not impossible for the same people to be born after hundreds of years of indifference. Therefore, if a Mirror Universe existed with the same people having different personalities, it would have to be because all of our lives are destined. I don't believe in Religion, but that would make it certain that something or someone's divine plan is in control. I wonder how many Trekkies are Ashiest ?

Am blown away by the depth and breadth of your knowledge and research, great video. In the Infinite Universe theory every variation that could happen will happen, but is there a plausible explanation for the link between these particular 2 versions

The notorious Inspector Tyler is back! Like other fans are noticing your soft lighting and sense of cinematography (Your shadow on the wall outside your office was hypnotic)is great.It reminds me of old Bogart\Dixon Hill like detective movies where sometime after midnight we listen to your report on a case in quiet awe.This style really works well and your look,voice,and acting add drama that other channels lack.I bet dressing in a white shirt with roles up sleeves, a tie loosely hanging like old time detectives used to dress with a coat and hat on one of those old racks in the background would complete the image,but I'm sure your way ahead of me ! I'm sure you have alot of good stuff planned and it's fantastic how popular your channel is becoming as more people are discovering the best STAR TREK fan show on the net!

They said in ST Discovery that the quantum frequency of atoms was slightly different than the prime universe. Its like in music where the A is generally tuned to 440hz, but a lot of old stuff was tuned in 432hz. We obviously used alot of different tunings but its an easy way to understand the concept.

My first view of your work, sir. Your level of focus is impressive. Also, you crack me up. Live long and prosper.

Discussing and teaching history through the prism of Star Trek. Simply excellent! Subbed

My theory is they have always being separate, but quantamly entangled.

The idea that "pacifists" were the main block that didn't want US intervention in WW2 is a bit galling, since iirc most of the opposition came from US anti-semites (who obviously had reasons to like the Nazis) and anti-comminists who thought fascism was preferable to communism.

Your videos are well explained as to the background facts and Information on Star Trek timelines . Keep up the explained videos

Im sorry that little wink about Voltaire and Frederick the great’s relationship sent me down a rabbit hole

I know this is a little older video but I would like to say that this was a well thought out and interesting take on things. Well done for a small channel that perhaps shouldn't be so small?

I love this topic! I would hypothesize that the Prime & Mirror universes split at the same time that we KNOW another universe/timeline was created! When Nero travelled back, creating the Kelvin timeline, it actually fractured the universe, and just like when you fracture glass, these cracks travelled forward and backward through time. In fact, I would even go a step further and THEORIZE that Discovery takes place in its own timeline as well, (also created at this time) which would explain the MASSIVE differences that we see there vs. what we know the Prime timeline should look like. (Primarily with the level of technology.) This would give us 4 known timelines and would actually clean up a lot of continuity issues. Also, I wrote this before watching the whole video. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…

I remember one theory regarding all those loopholes and changes and inconsistencies being basically due to them being in different/parallel universes. There is a universe x, there is a universe y, there is a universe z, and so forth, and they all split and merge and fork and create all sorts of convoluted webways. That being said, such things like different universal constants or being simply "wrong-brained" are just ... ridiculously wrong. So to me, there are many different origins to the Mirror-verse. I am also sure that some Mirror-verses will outlive others (see the comics and books that show Mirror-Picard, or Comodore Sisko, the miliary governor of Bajor), while others may not even have reached Kirks time. I am also sure that not all Terran Emprires had an Empress Sato or Empress Georgiou or Emperor Spock....

always saw the Terran empire starting more of a political party inspired by the roman empire, that eventually united the planet ideologically after the vulcans stumbled onto the scene, having a common enemy, united earth and led to new desire for power and to conquer where no man had conquered before, being a dark mirror to our earth united under common cause to go where no man gone before

Thanks so much for this fun and inspiring (I like to write stories) video. Your channel has become my go-to in order to de-stress from everyday life. I also gotta say I like your black jacket on you, it's pretty cool looking and attractive!

I've always taken the turning point was where enterprise showed it, right at the moment of vulcans landing on earth and instead of putting our warlike aspects aside, we spread to the stars on our war mongering and conquering. Hence why there's that tinge of darkness in the mirror universe as there's been no quest to better but a quest of conquest.

3:40 literally any plot where that happens thanks. Jolene Blalock always looked like she was seething, suppressing, and was by nature a much more Romulan-like person. She and Linda Park really got to show what they were about in the Mirror, and it's a damn shame we didn't get a whole season of that lol.

I enjoyed this video tremendously as I am sure I will enjoy the rest of them. Thank you.

I loved this video. Anything involving the Mirror universe I’m in for. It’s my favorite.

Sorry I'm late in posting this. Been saving interesting videos as workout videos and splicing them together to get to the right time. You make some interesting videos and this one is particularly good. So well thought out. Well presented with the script video editing and very thought provoking.

The fan series Star Trek: Farragut did a time travel ep that hinted that the Mirror Universe diverged from ours not long after the American Revolution. While not expounded upon as far as I recall, there's a chilling scene near the end where George Washington stabs a knife through an apple and leaves it standing on his desk as he heads into battle. Of course it's all fan speculation and I can't see how it would hold water, but it's a great scene anyway!

These vids are great and tickle my brain-folds. Thanks!

It's always a mistake to use anything from NuTrek. Kurtzman's additions is just poorly thought out dreck.

u hit a homerun when you did that close up on Lorcas face lmaoo As much as I love that character you were right to do so

you have put your video a very well put. thank you for the ORIGINS

The problem is that any major change changes everything. So the mirror universe as a concept doesn't hold together realistically, as much as I love them.

I’m assuming that it was because the Roman Empire never fell. This theory is supported by some “Discovery” dialog and it is also revealed that the Terrans in the MU are suffering from a medical condition that makes them very mean.

The problem with 'it would be too different' arguments is _within_ the Star Trek universe there are things that should not exist such as the Roman Empire with English in system 892, the US constitution and flag on Omega IV, and the duplicate Earth (Miri). It should be noted the lead in to "In a Mirror, Darkly" shows the emblem of the Empire during what appears to be WWII, then an atomic bomb explosion, and then the Empire landing on the moon. This "sets" the birth of the Empire no later than WWII.

Fabulous Commenrty, From The Biggest Trek Fan Going, You're Doing Wonderful Work My Brother! Live Long And Prosper 🖖

I always subscribed to the Edith Keeler branch off theory but too much evidence piled up against it. I'm glad you mentioned that the Kelvin timeline may not just be a branch but a wholly separate reality just like Mirror Universe seem to be because Kovich in Discovery season 3 pointed out that whatever was happening to Emperor Georgiou happened to someone else in the 24th Century and the working implication was that he was from the Kelvin Timeline. My working fan theory for now, to line up with the mycelial network "physics is biology" stuff is that there is some type chirality mechanism involved.

Truly fantastic! I love this content!

There are theoretically infinite alternate realities that would mean if a thing is possible it will exist so a divergent point isn't really necessary.

“who really founded the terran empire?” clearly it was hitler 2, the hitler with a jetpack

Even the "Third Reich" has a reference back to Rome, so it is one of the various regimes that borrowed from Rome to some degree.

i am of the opinion that the mirror universe is not a diverging timeline but rather an actual "mirror" universe. The star trek universe and the mirror universe are reflections of each other, one might be prime and the other merely reflecting the other but i would assume each is equally real. Each has the same people and similar institutions even over such a long timeline as we have seen because they are linked, what happens in one happens in the other as a part of the basic physics of their universe.

The fact that people are the same across the mirrored universes creates an interesting tether in my mind. Though the fact that the same people share relatively similar lives, puts it past uncanny, to a causal relationship. This also means very similar universes with the same people should exist as well. Through that tether many of the other questions you raised would be answered.

It's also plausible that the Bajoran Prophets don't have mirror counterparts at all and are the same beings across all realities. They do after all transcend time and space.

4:30 I know that in the Star Trek Online game they actually found a mirror universe orb and returned it.

In a "Trek" novel(probably 'Dark Mirror'), the Empire is known as the the United Empire of Planets.

Thanks for the video!

Will you be starting videos about the universe that is Space Battleship Yamato?

Yeah, the fact that a survey in TOS was around the same size as a scout ship means that the USS Kelvin, a survey ship, that existed prior to the " divergence " was already disproportionately larger than a TOS would be does lend credence that the JJverse Trek was already treading it's own path before the ship of unnecessary pointless barged in and screwed things up.

Ok so where do the mini skirts and crop tops come into the picture? Why did we not have those in discovery ? But they did in Enterprise and TOS.

Obviously, the Cochrane Incident in "Enterprise", is meant to give a frame of reference, however, it's clear that thus Cochrane us not the same man as shown in "First Contact", so it implies that some major divergence has already happened. sometimes

To me, it really feels like we are viewing different mirror universes with different divergence points for each series with the crossovers occuring at the point in time where they had the most similarity to the prime universe... It's the only way I can justify all the people having counterparts that are alive at the beginning of the episode because of all the literal backstabbing to get promoted stuff going on. With the way the Mirror Universe was generally depicted to work, all but maybe one or two members of the cast should already be dead by the time of any crossover because of failed plots to kill superior officers, successful plots to kill superior officers, superior officers executing underlings, and generally just killing off people you don't like when no one's looking. Perhaps the point in time that's most similar between the universes is where crossovers are the easiest? Since the initial crossovers tend to be random and accidental in nature, it would seem likely that the one someone gets sent to would be the most similar of the bunch at the time, and after that point begins to drastically diverge to the point where another accidental crossover would be unlikely, but purposefully attempting to reach it could still be possible if you analyzed the data to target that specific universe... If you were to, for example, revisit the Emperor Hoshi timeline in the TOS era, you would likely find that most of the TOS characters never existed, and even though there may be more crossovers to that universe, it likely wouldn't be from the same source unless someone was specifically trying to target that one somehow.

Fantastic video!

That was another awesome video!

Wow. This was amazing.

I agree. I enjoy the idea that the only real difference is that of attitude. The TE is just simply more aggressive. Societies in that time-line saw more logic in force rather than cooperation. The beauty of this trope is that it is in fact the reflection of humanity in the mirror. Almost the same but not quite.

The one thing i find is how this universe was were they are a more aggresive version of themself yet some are not.

There is no point of divergence, because mirror universe isn't a timeline. It's a mirror. Everything that happens in main reality is reflected to the mirror universe as an inverted image. Light "feeling different" and there being less light in general is meant to represent the fact that light loses intensity and diffuses a bit when reflected. It's not a temporal or physical phenomena, but a conceptual one. There's some force out there that conceptually reflects the main universe.

The divergence occurred with First Contact The crew of the Enterprise E created a new timeline where the Vulcans are welcomed instead of slaughtered

Considering the first major changes in the prime timeline (from real life) happen after ww2 than i think its safe to say everything before that happened the exact same with maybe world war 1 or 2 happening differently.

As not all Treks have Mirror episodes. However, it does have to be mentioned that there are two almost episodes from The Next Generation Series. The two episodes are Second Chances (TNG) and Defiant (DS9). William Riker's transporter twin Thomas, has an appearance in both.

Great stuff

The first contact scene when the vulcans land set in the mirror universe had a man that wasnt in the prime version. Was there any explanation who this was. It makes a point of showing the man so its supposed to stand out.

It is very simple. In the mirror universe, human evolved with different serotonin level production. We end up with a minor change that leads to higher levels of aggression. This accounts for everything that follows. Al the same events, just with higher levels of aggression

I saw the ds9 version of the mirror universe and if i remember correctly you see a cardassian ship de cloak as they have the alliance with the klingons so it makes sense but i assume its a later episode the ferangi say they dont have cloaking tech in the mirror universe of the alliance doesnt. Is this a mistake or am i missong something.

Great video

I think the JJVerse should or is better as an alternate reality that already existed a twin to the prime that was generally the same before 2233 but was thrown out of wack by Nero and Spock’s incursions.

I have seen the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek TOS and I just never much cared for it. I know about all of the variants that have been hypothesized about, but it turns out to be like reading a book and then when you approach its end you discovered that the final page of the story has been torn out and is now missing.

I also thought that the Mirror Universe was created by McCoy saving Edith. This was circa 1975. It seemed to fit elegantly there. What changed my mind was reading Harlan Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script in "6 Science Fiction Plays" (it's amazing his first draft was published twice, both times claiming to be the premiere). In it, Kirk and party beam up and find an evil pirate ship in place of the Enterprise. I wondered where the ISS Enterprise was in "City on the Edge of Forever."

Always been of the opinion that the Terran Empire was established after Colonel Green won WWIII

I think it would make more sense if the terran empire was founded by Khan after he conquers the planet and the augments are the ruling class while regular humans are used as cannon fodder. Edit I wrote this before you got to number 8.

I think some set of events probably across the centuries set them on their course to being more inclined to see violent actions as pragmatic solutions to issues which eventually leads to WW3 much like the prime timeline with the same people involved. Whereas other minor circumstances led to the same outcome in the prime timeline but having its people with a different outlook/belief system. This theory might seem odd to people but you have to remember that even people who seem to not want to go to war will go to war just as often as people who see war as a means to an end which is where I think the key difference between Mirror and Prime universes lays. In this context, it really means that some common events will always inevitably lead to certain outcomes like WW3, Vulcan First Contact, etc but others allow for divergences such as the rise of the Terran Empire in the Mirrorverse and the Federation in the Prime.

At 9:22 what is the guided item? Forgive my not knowing. Also, could the fact that Kirk, and crew visiting the mirror universe be the justification for its continued rise? I get when and where-how it started. Just the knowledge of something that different be enough to continue the time line? Also, the Guardian stated Giorgio will be sent back to a time in time when the universe”s start to separate? Good way to spend an hour at so thinking!

In regards to the origin and history of the Star Trek Mirror Universe, I am curious why I never a mention of the Starship Farragut Episode "For Want of a Nail" which hints to the creation of the Terran Empire beginning with George Washington?

More mirror! More mirror Mr. River! Though I love this and I really would like to see more you are In your element on these mirror videos you actually make me laugh on these ones I love them! (MYCELIAL NETWORK!) Thanks man!

Could it also be possible that the mirror universe was actually created BECAUSE of the event from the storm and the transporter malfunction and didn't exist before it? This could explain a lot of the "couldn't-happen-that-way-and-still-come-out-so-similar" in it's history.