Not that I'm saying gay/bi women can't appreciate Liza, Judy, Barbara etc.. I certainly do 😊

Megan Williams Thank you for saying this, this is kind of what I was thinking. Like I know what the basic "gay icon" guidelines are but I wonder why those are there. Does there need to be like completely separate lesbian icons and like bi icons (bicons?) and the queer icons for the whole umbrella? I don't know... language is weird.

That's a good point. I'd love to see a video that looks into this aspect more, icons FOR lesbians bi women etc. I t would be interesting

@@annalol6128 idk either, but in the wild (aka the internet) I've seen people use both "bicon" and "lesbian icon." Examples include (MCU) Thor, whom several lesbians say is cool/neat and claim he'd be a great wingman to wlw; and Eleanor Shellstrop from The Good Place, because it seems she is canonically bi.

@@mirandabee2323 what I find interesting is that many of the "gay icons" are (perceived) straight women who act dramatically, like Lady Gaga or Madonna, while "lesbian icons" are just that - famous lesbians, like Jodie foster, Tegan and Sara, and more recently names like Kate mckinnon. Other lesbian icons are just women lesbians like, like Gillian Anderson or talk Gadot, but other than Thor (whom I've seen talked about like you say) I've not seen many real men that are seen as "lesbian icons". In my opinion I could see maybe Jeff goldbloom as a lesbian icon but that's a personal thing and I can't think of others 😂

This is just speculation on my part, but I think, given how most transmen look after therapy, that it's just easier for the cis community to think "Oh, ok yeah that person was obviously a guy all along (even though that might not be biologically true), and they just did the therapy needed to correct the problem" Most people I've met, who were openly transmen, clearly, and definitively looked like the typical cis male would. There weren't a lot of ambiguous physical traits that might confuse the issue as it were. But for some trans women (some), the transition doesn't appear to be as seamless, from a pure cosmetic perspective. And looking at them, people can still think "that's a guy dressed up like a girl". And so it causes some disconnect. Again, not sure if that is the reason, just a theory on my part, but I think that might have something to do with why the trans issue is so one sided. The transmen, are just more easily blended into society, due to the physical characteristics and how they are presented outwardly. Did that make sense? I feel like it rambled a bit in the middle and end, not sure if my point got across as intended.

I think that transwomen, by their very nature. stand out more than transmen. I can't think of a transman (who isn't in porn) who puts themself out in the public eye the way Chelsea or Laverne have.

Robin I think in general, there is more vitriol aimed at trans women, and more dismissiveness towards trans men. From how I see it, a vast majority of people still see trans people as one gender pretending to be another. This makes it a lot easier to draw parallels to traditional male-female dynamics--without transness even being brought into the conversation, there's a parallel with how people are allowed to dress. AFAB people can pretty easily get away with wearing traditionally male clothes, because male is supposed to be the norm, supposed to be superior, supposed to be enviable. AMAB people can still get harassed for it, but it's a lot lesser, and so when people see a trans man they're just like "Okay that's a woman dressed as a man that doesn't mean anything it's normal." And so trans men are dismissed. On the other hand, if AMAB people wear traditionally female clothes, it challenges gender norms a lot more, because for someone who was given the supposedly superior man-slot in life to find something appealing in the supposedly inferior women's side challenges the foundation of the whole gender hierarchy. And so trans women get violently resisted and harassed. Since media thrives on controversy, it's no wonder trans women are more discussed, but I don't think that prevalence is necessarily a bad thing--we need more trans male exposure, yes, but we don't need to reduce trans women's visibility to do so. Anyway, this is all conjecture on a college kid's part, so you can take it with a grain of salt.

I think it has more to do with precedent set in film and literature: there is a long history of women dressing as men to go into battle, or female children being "tomboys" in a lot of very old stories. If you think about it in terms of power dynamics, it's a lot easier to understand why a woman might want to be seen as a man (with a man's historical privileges) than it is to understand why a man might want to be seen as a woman.

Trans man here to give my trans man opinion, but it's a result of how transphobia affects both groups. As the people above me mentioned, trans women are hypervisible in trans discussions because everyone sees them as men dressing as women, and given our super misogynistic culture that's much more confusing and outraging than a woman dressing as a man. The only acceptable time for men to be cross dressing is when they're doing it for a joke, so then you get transmisogyny popping up which targets trans women in specific and makes them more vulnerable to transphobic abuse and violence. Trans men, on the other hand, are often written off as girls pretending to be boys, which still does draw transphobia, but not in the same grand way that being a trans woman does. I think it's inaccurate to say that presenting as masculine when you're AFAB has no repercussions, as it has been criminalized in the US (I don't know if it's since been decriminalized in all states or not), and you see butch lesbians get a lot of flack for being butch, which spills over to trans men too (and something I can testify for). Nonetheless, ridiculing "men who dress like women" happens on a much more public platform than shaming "women who dress like men" because cross-dressing, NB, and trans AMAB folkx are seen as people betraying their assigned male gender, which is heralded as the superior gender, versus AFAB people who do the same because they're just a silly girl who we can bully back into submission on the side. I've seen some people try to claim that people actually want AFAB people to be masculine which is 100% not true, considering how much flack I've gotten for presenting androgynous/borderline masculine for four years now. I find that straight trans men, or the more masculine sorts, don't really seem to make a fuss over trans representation? And that's not really a bad thing, but from those I've run into, they might care about their transness but in a way where they'd want it to be treated like a normal part about them rather than some strong political identity that they want to be celebrated in the media. I, on the other hand, am a gay trans man, so I exist on this rather frustrating intersection where I don't quite fit in with cis gay men and I don't quite fit in with straight trans men, so while I appreciate all the visible trans women in the media, I don't really have any icons of my own. A lot of gay/bi trans men I know (including myself) /love/ David Bowie. I know he's kind of an LGBT icon in general, but all of us are very specifically drawn to Bowie in the late 70s vs Ziggy Stardust (Lodger is my favorite album of his, personally, which is the era I'm talking about). I also find a lot of trans men (including myself) love Fight Club, but not in the same way that cis guys love Fight Club. We're a lot more aware of the sense of fragile masculinity and search for an identity, and also the super homoerotic subtext (or at least the gay trans men are). Tl;dr here is that trans men tend to go for either traditionally cishet male icons, but with a more mature understanding of their gender and sexuality in a way that we find it relatable, or gay/bi trans men are attracted to cis gay/bi men because we would just love to be them/they're relatable as well.

Preach!

By that logic, Cher, Barbara and other gay icons wouldn’t qualify since they don’t have the same record of specifically helping the queer community as lady Gaga has

and on top of that she's also openly queer herself, she's bi!

Its not just you. Just look at the dude! He's an adorable, erudite elderly gentleman!

satireknight I saw it advertised, but no! :(

Everybody gay and straight love Ian McKellen lol.

He is great in gods and monsters too, and it has brandon frasers best role ever. And Apt pupil, ....whereever he is.

🖤🖤

Get Babashook!

Your Gay Father YESSS

She needs a snack.

Seconded!

babadook is the one true gay icon.

irishomelette "AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS I'M FREE!!! TIME TO CONQUER PANCAKES!!!"

My mental picture: 1) Rantasmo has brunch. 2) Rantasmo invites Rita. 3) Rita turns brunch into a monster with "all the powers of a breakfast!" 4) Morphing time! Rantasmo and the Gay Comic Geek team up with gay KZfaqrs to make the Rainbow Rangers. 5) Rita makes brunch GROOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!! 6) Rainbow Rangers summon the Fabuluzord. 7) We learn a valuable lesson about not inviting crazy evil old ladies to brunch parties without doing a magic wand (staff) check at the door.

I need a comic and/or fanfiction of that!

Conankun66 agreed the defintion should change. Gaga would be a great gay icon because she's bisexual so she's a part of the LGBT community and she's also very outspoken about LGBT rights.. hires LGBT people and wrote the iconic "born this way". I mean no hate to Arianna but I dont get why would she be a gay icon.

no the video was about the concept of "gay icon" and how the young people of this generation approach it. and that is exactly what my comment is also about and he even said at the end that he wants to have a discussion about it.

Conankun66 agreed. It's a generational thing but it's also a racial thing in a way. This is the first time that the gay community is being called out internally for having issues with race. The ideals of what a gay community is will change in a generation or so

a) yes, he did talk about that point when he said that the young people today dont really know what gay icon means(something that the commenter ساره already discussed in their comment) B) Instead of discussing the points i brought up, you simply discuss if this is "the right place" for this discussion, which is just plain derailing. I am discussing the topic of the video(the concept of the gay icon and how it worked and how it works today/how it could change), you are not.

fair point but you also have to realize, the dominant voice decides the culture and white gay men seem to scream the loudest regarless of population size, also your including the whole spectrum here...cant each of the letters have our own, cause each letter kind of has diffrent interests and aside from strength in numbers for cultural advancement we don't have much else in common over all, let every one like who they like

he is a gay icon as well

Yesss

And Drew Barrymore

Maniafig giant ariana grande fan here: she's just kind of a good ally ? She doesn't have a Liz Taylor-esque charity (but she did do a few lipsticks for mac supportint aids research) supporting the lgbt+ community or anything. She does have a gay brother and she's very supportive of the community, but I wouldn't exactly call her an icon.

ME TOO , i've never really watched Rupaul's dragrace or understood anything related to gay pride

JohnzaloogIII lol I'm pretty sure I knew Rita was a gay icon before learning what the word gay even meant.

Who's Rita?

hardly! Fangirl as much as you want! No such thing as too much (until we get into stalking territory)

No argument here!

Jeanie Girlover I agree with this too and personally see her as more of this generations gay icon than I do Ariana grande

She bores me, but I agree with your statement.

and she is bisexual so its super cool

Any female artist with aufficient flash and style, who's supportive of the community, can qualify. Janet Jackson was one of mine. So were She-Ra and Storm.

Viktor C you better learn to love Kylie before I revoke your gay card, hun

Viktor C I think you phrased this perfectly. I'm a straight person, but the majority of my friends have been on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. My grandmother also had many gay male friends when she was younger. The age gap seems to play a huge part in how a gay icon is defined and viewed, as well as who the icons are. I'm 26, and I've got friends in their mid-20s to mid-30s, and even that gap of a decade makes a huge difference. Some of the 30-somethings still see gay icons as people like Cher and Madonna, but also David Bowie, Divine, John Waters, and Freddie Mercury. The younger folks look to people, fictional or otherwise who are either super open about their sexuality or are dealing with it in a way that's relatable to them. My grandmother's friends were all "friends of Dorothy" and very into cabaret, musicals and being flamboyant. Times do change, but history shouldn't be invalidated.

I know he said he was non binary/ gender fluid but what about Ezar Miller?

Rebeca A. Its true though. Never met a trans woman who doesn't cureently loathe her except for actual white nationalists. Also, white nationalism seems to be a disproportionately popular thing among white trans women. I don't really think I can explain it any better than saying "stupid is as stupid does, and pointing at Ernst Rohm.

I kinda agree being a furry XD

Ayy, there are other furry fans out there :3

Heavens to murgatroyd!

thecoywolfzearoth furry yaaaaaa woooooo

idontevenknow I agree on both counts they're both such great performers and definitely my icons as a bi lady.

Madonna the last gay icon? You can't put Beyoncé or Gaga under the rug like that lol. ;)

Uhm, wrong Jenner LOL

That's pretty cool. Happy Birthday.

corhydron111 I'm not an expert and I never liked him but I'm guessing its due to two things: his nearly universal mainstream popularity and that whole "might be molesting children" thing.

They were popular, no question, but not Michael Jackson popular. He was the most popular musician on the planet for *years*. The people Rantasmo listed were celebrities in their own little bubble but if you weren't part of that bubble there's a good chance you hadn't heard of them. Jackson was ubiquitous and you knew who he was even if you didn't like his music or spend time with anybody who did.

I would consider artists as gay icon who make songs gay people can relate to. Like david bowie, even if he was a straight guy. Or famous gay actors who have spoke out in public against homophobia like ian mckekke, jacobi, The one actor who played the cool gay villain vampire in true blood. And i would consider the artist mika a gay icon, if he were more famous, he is underated because he didnt sell out his creativity, because he wrote songs about his (obviously gay )expieriences in his love life. He even wrote a song about a bisexual man. He didnt even need to come out in the public. He didnt need to, but he did. Also his music can be compared to freddy mercurys.

Yes!! After falling in love with her on SNL I looked up all the different things she had been in and when I saw Big Gay Sketch Show on her iMDB I knew I had to watch it

@@aluminium4303 Nope. He wasn't, actually.