What is the difference between 904 and 316 liner?

Рет қаралды 14,792

Күн бұрын

If you have any questions regarding this topic or anything to add please let me know in the comments. This is a slightly controversial subject, where there is a lot of misinformation, sales technique and marketing. I hope that this can cut through a lot of that and enable you to make your own informed choice.
Please like and subscribe too!

Пікірлер: 117

@Simon-vp3st Жыл бұрын

Clear and straightforward - thanks :)

@corker95 Жыл бұрын

Wish you did this Video yesterday iv just ordered 904 this morning 😭 never mind 😂 iv ordered a Hunter Allure 4 seen as you liked it so much and it looks really nice so we are looking forward to getting it all installed at the weekend 👍🏻

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Nightmare! It’s no disaster though, it’ll still do a good job! Let me know how you get on with Allure, as I say it’s a great little stove.

@macraghnaill3553 Жыл бұрын

I have a 904 liner and the fitter said it was guaranteed for 20 years I also burn wood and smokeless coal as do most of my neighbours who have multifuel stoves.. A 306 liner is for wood burning, a 904 liner is for smokeless coal, anyone intending to use coal & wood, would need a 904 liner I find that coal is cheaper to use than wood and of course will last several hours before refueling

@waltermcphee3787 7 ай бұрын

it would seem that 904 should always be fitted to multi fuel stoves as they are for burning smokless fuel,duck eggs, as the ash is yellow with I expect sulpher. How many instalers do this or just put a 316 liner for cheapness.

@Mattlawton-ft6ew 6 ай бұрын

You are absolutely right

@mikecooper5584 Жыл бұрын

Great advice we burn wood and smokeless fuel and have a 904 liner

@ValueYourTimeOnEarth 9 ай бұрын

Thanks 🙏 for an informative and honest info.

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

@hastalloyking Жыл бұрын

great vid , thanks

@paulplumb2716 Жыл бұрын

Good man 👍

@bajatoma 9 ай бұрын

@thetortoise can you compare draft between 6" corrugated ovalized vs 5.5" smooth wall? BTW, the fireplace insert is calling for 7" or 6", but I can not fit a 6" round into the chimney, only when it's ovalized.

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

In the UK we tend to use double skinned liners that are corrugated on the outside, but smooth on the inside. I’ve known fitters stand on these to turn them oval (to get them in down a tight chimney), but there is no oval product available in the UK (that I’m aware of). I don’t believe it would pose any negative to draw though, the key thing is the input and output of air, the shape of the flue shouldn’t really affect things too much.

@bajatoma 9 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise Standing on the liner is dodgy since it might split. they actually, split quite easily. Normally, ovalization is done by machines. As for oval vs round - I've read somewhere that round 5.5 might be better or the same as 6" oval, the reason being round has less turbulence as smoke escapes, and thus is up to 20% more efficient compared to the same size round.. or, am I talking smooth wall vs corrugated?

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

I imagine that difference is about smooth vs corrugated. Mostly this is fairly new to me as we can only get smooth internal, round liners. There are no other options here at all.

@paulvanderstay1844 9 ай бұрын

Hello and thanks for you're channel. My stove installer says that my second chimney ( that doesn't currently have a liner ) needs a 100mm liner, but the chimney is curved in two places and he thinks it will not be possible to do it. What advice do you have, as it has leached tar in places and we obviously need a solution. Thanks for any advice you can offer. Paul

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

100mm sounds too small, so that is probably worth checking. But liners are flexible and generally going around bends is not an issue. Should be fine!

@eekeenmouse Жыл бұрын

I fitted 904 last year as I knew I would be burning mostly pretend coal, mainly because I'm lazy but also because I usually burn 24/7 (except Saturday when I clean the stove). The coal (all be it pretend coal) will easily burn 12 to 15 hours unattended when shut down to minimum air (yes, the Defra Block is still fitted, so only secondary air feeding the fire), where as, much as I love to burn wood, I have only limited success with overnight burns, 1/2 the time its stone cold after 7 to 8 hours. So, anyway, I'll update this comment in 2042 (probably on a Friday, lol) to let you know how the 904 is doing 😁 P.S. I've been looking for reviews of the Parkray Aspect 8 as I think its a really good looking stove and I'm planning on fitting one in the summer (If I've saved enough pennies, lol), BUT, I can only guess they haven't sold a single one as I can find no review or info on it, even photos are rare but no videos at all, and as I'd want to know how it goes with the "pretend coal" grate adapter it's even more unlikely for me to find any useful info. If you have any "insider info" on the Aspect 8, especially the "black-stuff" burning, "Flat-Cap" wearing version, I would very much appreciate any info whatsoever on the "8". P.P.S. Love your videos, entertaining and very informative.

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment. With regard to the Aspect 8, I have used one in a customers house. It works excellently, it’s a big stove so uses more fuel, but controls well and belts out heat. The only issue is these stoves are definitely not coal burners. If you’re burning coal I would definitely suggest a stove with a riddling grate.

@eekeenmouse Жыл бұрын

@@TheTortoise Thanks for the info, any suggestions on good stove with riddler? I'm looking for a big stove with a lot of glass, I'm currently using a 5kW Ecosy+ Newburn 5 Wide "Idyllic", its a cheap stove, both quality and design are lacking but it works, its ridder mechanism is a joke and I removed it as this gives more room for a proper ash-pan (I had to make myself). Its heating a fairly large house so I'm running it at its upper limit most of the day, hence me looking for around 8kW.

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

@@eekeenmouse it is worth looking at things like: Clock stoves (I’m yet to properly test these, but I get the impression that they work very well) Arada Farringdon (same story as above) Saltfire STx8 is worth a look for a lower cost option. The likes of the Clearview Vision 500, Charnwood Cove and Woodwarm will all work very well, but the price and timescales may well be a little scary.

@ianscottuk Жыл бұрын

Ok, I have some questions! 1. Does ordinary house coal corrode a liner, or is this mainly an issue with smokeless fuel? 2. I have read you can't use house coal (bituminous coal) on a stove as it flashes once it catches and can damage the stove/liner from the pressure. I do see this on my open fire so understand it, but could you just leave the door open until it takes? 3. Does liner brand make a difference? Can you recommend one over another, or should is it ok to just buy whats available?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

It is mainly an issue with smokeless fuel. Although house coal has now been made illegal to sell, so it’s not really an option now. Liner quality does make a difference. A cheap liner is spread thinly so it is quite light and crushes easily. More expensive liners can have more layers of metal and last longer, the trouble is that often margins confuse things and you can find a lot of cheaply made liners selling for a lot of money. The best advice is buy from a long standing local shop, they rely on their reputation so they will use decent stuff, they will also have been bitten in the past by cheap components, so Will generally avoid them.

@ianscottuk Жыл бұрын

@@TheTortoise coal is still available in Scotland (for the time being...)

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

@@ianscottuk ahh interesting. I’d forgotten that.

@carlxc70 9 ай бұрын

You mention the acid content of smokeless fuel and 904 being a better choice based on that, which liner is the better choice for burning primarily wood and supplementing with peat, generally speaking?

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

Definitely 316.

@d1ppaz Жыл бұрын

Brill vid! What liner brands would you recommend?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

I like the idea of working out a test that I could compare them with. Once I’ve got it worked out I will do a test. One part of the test I think should be weight, but it’s very hard to get a fair test with it.

@user-pn6ri9sv1s 8 ай бұрын

Hi I have 316 liner as I only burn wood, I see that you say and my stove instructions say thatbi can burn smokeless coal occasionally... what would you class as occasionally? I just think sometimes I would like to try to pug dome on to keep the fire going if we pop out firca while. I have an 8k stove that burns wood rather quickly and is never still going after a couple of hours, I close vents but still burns fast. So would occasionally work out at a bag a week or a bag a month or less. Thanks Andy

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

This definitely sounds as though you unfortunately have the wrong stove for your use. This amount of smokeless use will probably shorten the life of the liner, but you may feel it’s worth it given the current lack of functionality you have.

@maxdread666 11 ай бұрын

Excellent video and a different view to much of the (mis??)information out there. In terms of brand, any opinion on the MI Flues liners? Judging by the intro to the video, I think the answer to this will be a "no"... But is there any way to tell whether a piece of flue liner is 316 or 904 if it's not known (long story!)? Many thanks

@TheTortoise 11 ай бұрын

There is often no way of telling which you’ve got. Some manufacturers stamp it into the metal, but most don’t mark it with anything other than packaging

@Bubs-b6f 5 ай бұрын

I have a flexi stainless steel liner in my chimney. What would be the best temperature to burn in my log burner

@TheTortoise 5 ай бұрын

The ideal temperature (a bit like the ideal efficient speed for a car being 56mph) for a stove on the flue just above the stove is 300°F.

@adamada101 Жыл бұрын

What brand/model is that stove in the video? I like it 🙂 👋 from 🇨🇦

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Hello, how’s 🍁 I imagine these are chilly times still? The enamel stove is a Pevex Bucklesham.

@dannykimble7671 20 күн бұрын

I’ve had a boiler stove in this house for 30 years burn 50/50 wood & smokeless coal, council fitted the stove & never had a liner in it, stove is now Leaking & needs replacing should I put a liner in as having had no problems although does smell a bit in the loft, any help appreciated ????

@TheTortoise 19 күн бұрын

You need to watch this 😅 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/btiVf9eH2r-cgok.htmlsi=nbsYn2_-zLx-G5pF

@LRDefender1968 Жыл бұрын

Very informative and clear, thank you guys. Kind regards Tony

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot

@Swerve744 Жыл бұрын

Excellent explanation. Was going to go 904. But will be getting 316 scheidel liner.

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Glad it’s useful and saving you money!

@letshugandlove324 Жыл бұрын

are you going to insulate the liner or is it a pre-insulated liner? and why or why not?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

@@letshugandlove324 insulating a liner is very case by case. I’m not a fan of insulating “just because”, so I would take advice from your installer. I could offer some further advice, but I would need to ask you quite a few questions. I can do that, but only if you want this?

@letshugandlove324 Жыл бұрын

@@TheTortoise thanks ask away?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

@@letshugandlove324 okay: Do you have a 2 storey house? Is the chimney in the middle or on the side of the house (is any part of it on the outside of the house, eg gable end)? How tall very roughly is the stack on the roof? Is the chimney very tarry or fairly clean? How old is your house? Does it suffer with any damp? Is the chimney very large (diameter wise) or no more than 15” diameter? Will the stove be used a lot or as a back up and focal point?

@karrade 9 ай бұрын

Great Videos. Have you recorded one on why the glss door sometimes becomes crazed? Thanks

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

Not yet! I’d like to though. I’ve been waiting to get hold of an old glass with that problem as a prop!

@karrade 9 ай бұрын

@TheTortoise if I was closer you could have mine when i swap it out ..

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

I tell you what. If you message my website then we could discount a replacement glass to you. You could then return the glass to me in the packaging it arrives in, and I’ll cover the cost? Let me know.

@karrade 9 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise I did message your website as requested 😁

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

Yea, it was me who replied. I’m away at the moment, hopefully we’ll work it all out on my return.

@guiliobarresi1808 Жыл бұрын

interesting i put in 904 mainly because everyone from the fitter to the shops said it would last a few more years than 316 , i have a log only burner not coal so i suppose i could have used the cheaper 316 not that im that bothered really

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Nah it’s not the end of the world at all. As long as it works, that’s the main thing.

@SisterAbdullahX Жыл бұрын

Well, that’s good news!

@chriselson7413 7 ай бұрын

We've just had a multi fuel stove fitted with a twin wall flue, upon looking it's 316 grade and a lot of twin wall flues appear to be the same, not 904? What's with that, and can i burn smokeless fuel occasionally without problems!?!? Confused now 😢 ps great videos and information 👍

@TheTortoise 6 ай бұрын

I’m not a fan of smokeless fuel generally. It is really horrible and corrosive, so my general advice would be avoid it. Your flue will take some use as twinwall flues use much thicker metal than in liners, but as I say, smokeless fuel is very corrosive so will actually destroy any glue including 904.

@MegaSweep1 Жыл бұрын

Also some makes of liner the 904 option is thicker which does make a difference but not much

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

I have heard that, but I don’t believe it is the case. I perhaps need to do further research on that, but I was reliably informed by a few people that that was a marketing myth. Do you know who’s liner?

@jonathanhasmail Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the explanation which makes a lot of sense. Is there any merit in insulating a 316 flue liner (approx 12m long, mid terrace Victorian townhouse) and can Rockwool duct liner be used? It works out at 50% of cost of Rockwool pipe insulation and appears to be made from the same material. We’ll be installing an inset log burner if that makes any difference.

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Insulation poured around an inset stove, or rock wall stuffed around it is often important as this will drive more heat into the room. With regard to the flue, there is nothing (from your description) that suggests insulation will be needed, but it could be? There are loads of reasons to and not to insulate: Pros: An exposed chimney can be kept warm, but yours is mid terrace so not exposed. A chimney that is leaking can be prevented from heating up from the liner, as this can cause old tar to smoke and leak into the house. It can support a cheap liner that could get damaged during sweeping. It can make using, and lighting the stove easier. Cons: The cost It can actually cause damp, and use of the stove becomes more critical Makes future repair work very expensive and messy. Is often not needed With regard to what types to use, if you intend or need to insulate a chimney. I would typically take the advice of the fitter, as they all have their individual pros and cons, and only by knowing the specific job could a good opinion be formed.

@jonathanhasmail Жыл бұрын

@@TheTortoise Thank you for taking the time to reply, I’m considering self-installation with Building Control sign off hence the questions but nothing is decided yet as we need Listed Building Consent 🙄 before anything can be done.

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

@@jonathanhasmail oh I’ve done that before, what a pain. I would use a decent liner and if the chimney is clear and sound, I would insulate around the stove, but leave the rest. You can normally add insulation quite easily, but taking it out is a nightmare. Good luck with the install, let me know if you have any more questions.

@carphunter5042 10 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoisecan i use vermiculite, I've seen 10mm size balls of vermiculite and wondered if I could pour it down the chimney around the liner

@TheTortoise 10 ай бұрын

Yes vermiculite is commonly used to insulate liners, but do be cautious if you have any history of damp in that chimney as vermiculite does have water absorption properties that may work against you.

@denisekennedy3099 9 ай бұрын

Three companies have explained exactly the same thing to me, namely that the price differential stems from 904 having a far higher stainless steel content, which means that (a) it cuts more cleanly when being installed; (b) it unfurls in a far more stable way going down the chimney, so it’s less likely to collapse or shear off; and (c) over time, because of the higher stainless steel content, it is much less likely to corrode. Corrosion takes time and is obviously hidden till there’s a major problem, so the initial outlay is worth it to me as I intend to be in my home for the next 20+ years, so the corrosion issue is likely to crystallise during my ownership.

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

They’re both stainless steel, so there isn’t more S/S in 1 or other. The difference is that 904 has a higher content of chromium and molybdenum, which makes the metal less susceptible to corrosion. There is an argument however that this change in the make up, makes 904 less durable against high temperatures. And sadly I don’t believe the way it cuts or anything else are affected at all. That is affected by what is used to cut it. Having said that, fitting 904 is not a problem, it’s just added expense that most users will not benefit from.

@denisekennedy3099 8 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise Thank you so much for clarifying. Should I be looking for a different supplier/fitter, given that all three didn’t know this or didn’t give a balanced view?

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

I wouldn’t panic. The key thing is getting the right thing for you and your use fitted. As long as they’re doing a good job, that’s the key bit. In terms of knowledge about the differences etc, there is so much to learn so it’s not uncommon to hear guesses etc. Hopefully that’s where I can help 😅

@letshugandlove324 Жыл бұрын

is it better or necessary to have a insulated liner?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

Not necessarily at all. There are good arguments for both.

@puppylife7459 6 ай бұрын

Only for single wall liners And those are only used on gas appliances

@angelasanderson4825 9 ай бұрын

do you have to insterlate the chimmly with a liner

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

No not always. In some cases it should be actively avoided and in others it’s a good idea. Very much case by case.

@puppylife7459 6 ай бұрын

316 double smooth wall 2ply stainless steel liners are ment for solid fuel burning appliances Per NFPA

@TheTortoise 6 ай бұрын

Yes they are considered multi-fuel liners, but smokeless fuel is such a corrosive fuel that it will destroy pretty much whatever flue you have. Even 904 can only take so much from modern coal based fuel sadly.

@mojomaze Жыл бұрын

What is smokeless fuel?

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

In layman’s terms it is the man made stuff that looks like uniform manufactured coal. Normal mined coal is all sorts of shapes and sizes and is no longer sold in the UK, but you can still use steam coal which is expensive but lovely to use (it’s also kinder to your flue).

@user-bi1dv4dn2t 9 ай бұрын

Do you use vermiculite

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

Mostly I try to avoid it, but that is mostly because of the age of the properties in my area. Vermiculite can cause more trouble than it solves, but I am releasing a video about insulating liners soon. There is some detail to go through on that question.

@trevorford9432 8 ай бұрын

Is 316 OK for coal?? Or is 904 better for wood & coal??.

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

904 is primarily installed with smokeless fuel use in mind. Normal coal, Welsh steam coal and wood are all best suited to 316 flue, but smokeless is very corrosive so is suited to 904. However bear in mind you’re always best to go for the flue that suits your main fuel. There is no point in buying 904 if you “might” burn smokeless, it is only worth it if you intend for smokeless fuel to represent 20% or more of your use.

@trevorford9432 8 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise Thank you for your swift reply I am hoping to use smokeless, again not as my main fuel but would like to keep my options open. My installer says its not worth the extra money for the 904 but I'd rather be safe than sorry Thank you again, T

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

Your installer is correct. Buying it as a just in case is definitely not sensible. It’s like putting off road tyres on a Ferrari. You will destroy its effectiveness with its designed purpose to assist with something that will basically/rarely ever happen. 904 is not only more money, but also less well suited to wood usage. I’m with your fitter, stick to 316.

@trevorford9432 8 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise Hight Tortoise again, three questions what is the average price to supply and install a flue liner & the pot kit and pipe to the burner then commission,?? also would you use hardie backerboard for the closure plate it is well secured, also the fire chamber is boarded out and tiled with porcelain floor tiles what are the chances of then cracking? Thanks T.

@TheTortoise 8 ай бұрын

average prices are impossible to know. Every job varies so much that it really is “how long is a piece of string”. As a register plate I would always suggest metal. Boards will work fine, but they can crack and cause a complete mess. Finally with the tiles, I very much doubt you’ll have any issue at all. Hope that helps.

@StuartPlumbley Жыл бұрын

Just saved me a chunk of cash

@TerryJamesCole Жыл бұрын

588 😅

@EddRandomCrap Жыл бұрын

🤯

@victorimmature Жыл бұрын

NOW YOU TELL ME ...... 😂

@TheTortoise Жыл бұрын

😬 oops. 😅

@dominic6055 6 ай бұрын

I don't like those flexible liners, the surface inside is not smooth and tends to trap more creosote,also they're not durable as a standard liner and they cost almost the same.

@Mattlawton-ft6ew 6 ай бұрын

So are you saying a clay liner is better 🤔

@dominic6055 6 ай бұрын

@@Mattlawton-ft6ew no, stainless steel but the hard model,similar to the flue pipe between the etove and chimney

@dominic6055 6 ай бұрын

@@Mattlawton-ft6ew I built a 2nd chimney in the kitchen with clay blocks and with a clay liner(cylinder and with fireproof quality) and filled the gap with rockwool. That setup is ideal imho.But with the main chimney I just wanted to solve the condensation issue by adding a metal liner

@TheTortoise 6 ай бұрын

The liners you’re describing are no longer legal to use, in the UK at least. They’re also impossible to install in around 60% of chimneys due to the shape and space you have to work with.

@dominic6055 6 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise you mean the hard steel ones? or the clay liners? and why aren't the flexible liners with a smooth surface inside?

@Mhutton11314 Жыл бұрын

Clueless

@DeanW-1990 9 ай бұрын

I have a 316 and a portway delux could I burn smokeless coal on this

@TheTortoise 9 ай бұрын

Yea you can. 316 stainless will age quicker so it is worth ensuring a few things. 1 I would suggest having some extensive wood use as this will build up some soot which will protect the stainless steel. 2 use smokeless fuel sparingly, 316 is designed for primarily wood burning. Aside from that you’ll be fine. I’ve used smokeless on 316 liners 100’s of times, the only times it’s gone wrong is when people burn smokeless all the time and particularly if they run it on low all day and night.

@DeanW-1990 9 ай бұрын

@@TheTortoise thank you for taking the time out to give me great advice I appreciate it