This is spot on. Describes me to a T. Confused. Invisible. Hiding. Like a mouse living near it’s hole ready to scurry back. The Narcissist prayed on me like a cat - whenever he was bored or needed a way to regulate his feelings. One day I realized that “I mattered to God. That I was valuable to him.” If God values me then I can matter to myself and God and I no longer need other people to do that for me. I count.

when i get the courage to stand up for myself or prioritize my mental wellness (validating my own feelings, distancing from certain friends) i get an intense fear that i'm the narcissist and that any instance of me reasoning why someone doesn't complement my life is a display of narcissism. as im "healing" i feel hesitant recreating a life with new friends who don't trigger me or my insecurities, because i worry that's being too egotistical or insecure. im recovering from many BPD traits, so i tread lightly when it comes to getting my needs met bc i fear falling into the other extreme (NPD). but this echoism stuff resonates, and your advice is helpful! thank you Dr. Fox

Oh yeh!! It was drilled into my head to work myself to death. Do for others without thinking twice nor ever expecting anything in return. My needs were not adressed! But I was expected to meet everyone else's. If I question any of this, i am told I am "crazy and need help". As an older adult, I avoid any friendships/socialization. I am worn out, isolated and ready to die.

It blows my mind to hear about behaviors I've always had that I never even knew were "a thing," let alone had a name.

I remember there was this guy from California who talked a lot about echoism. I forgot the channel when I got a new phone, but I remember he talked a lot about it. Then I studied the origins of the words. The guy (Narcissus) fell in love with his reflection in the water and eventually ended up drowning. Echo was the name of his girlfriend who he didn’t care about.

“Know your worth”. I say it to myself daily. It helps. Really. 💕

This was very much me; but only when my wife was around. Not at work; there I'm gregarious and confident. Not with my parents or siblings; there I'm opinionated and inclusive. And not before I got married. Just with her. It was entirely situational, but that situation was most of my life. It doesn't have to be a lifelong personality trait; when paired with a narcissist, echoism (self-defeat included) becomes a survival trait. I've been described as "disastrously loyal," which became super relevant here. The divorce literally saved my life.

I was diagnosed w borderline disorder in my early 20s. Im 37 n have worked on myself alot...and i struggle w it. Always feel it would be so much easier to keep myself isolated because narcs seem to be drawn to me and when i do meet someone im totally into...i literally go completely thoughtless. I feel im not good enough, no self wolth, i hate compliments..hate them, cant stand gifts frome men or the attention from them..whats weirder is i dont mind a guy saying hey can i spend time w u or touch you...but as soon as they say they care or supposedly love me..i freak out..i will literally tell them no they dont n stop saying that or thos has to stop. I try to tell myself..listen erica dont hurt their feelings u care for him..but i cant because at the same exact time im hearing in my head..ur not hurting his feelings he isnt telling the truth he is only using u because he is too lazy or scared to go after a prettier girl. Im always...always thinking i am nothing, ugly, too fat, not good enough. when it comes to men but i also want to help the guy i like so i let myself stay in this unhealthy relationship even if i want better for him too. Ive told him id stay for him but not in an actual relationship so i wont resent him when he begins to speak to another woman.. until he can find someone better...if im alone..if i stick to myself i have this thot in my head that i can do anything on my own. I am strong, i am a single mother and can get thru anything. Is this a form of echoism?

Let me begin by saying, Wow. Then, let me follow up with, No, really... WOW. I'm in a relationship with a Vulnerable Narcissist. And I DO have some BPD tendencies, but my neurologist, psychiatrist, and psychologist have all expressed some doubt about me having full blown BPD. As I listened to this, it really connected some dots, and I will definitely be bringing up the idea of this being a component of my issues with my therapist. Thank you for doing the research, and putting forth something succinct that can touch our lives.

This is so insightful. I see this Echoism in myself. I find your videos helping me understand my emotions and behaviors better! Thank you!

Me before watching this video: “Wow this sounds interesting but I don’t think this will describe me at all.” Me halfway through this video: ………………..”Wow that’s so me.” Thanks for another insightful vIdeo Dr. Fox.

I recognize myself in this case for almost all of my life. Nowadays I appreciate more myself and I'm in the first place, but it took a lot of time and pain to get aware of it.

DR FOX IVE MISSED U BUDDY lets see some fresh content i always watch every video you put out man i truly cant thank you enough for helping me manage my BPD through your videos thank you again and god bless

You mention echoism in romantic relationships, but I see this concept in relationships with family members, friends, and coworkers too. Thanks for sharing, your knowledge is so appreciated

Thank you for being humble enough to learn from your viewers as well. My therapist and I learn from each other and she’s the first to recognize and diagnose my BPD. I will be starting your workbook this week with them. I’m very grateful for your work, Dr. Fox. Again, thank you.

"self blame is just another way to suppress your needs" - THIS IS A VERY HELPFUL INSIGHT! Thank you Dr F

04:41 Can (hopefully?) confirm. I am diagnosed with PD-TS and scored the highest on bpd (unstable self image included) and avoidant personality disorder. Also scored a point on paranoid personality disorder. Basically: I love to give in abundantly, because I hate the way someone else's disappointment makes me see myself. I see giving as a way of gettting a dose of self validation, which makes me feel egocentric, deceitful and pathetic in return. It's basically acting like a nice guy, but since I don't care too much about what it means to the other person, I can feel bad about it. Like an impostor should. I want to see them smile, only because I made them smile. Not for how that smile makes them have a good day, but how my life will have some meaning for it. The crux is that there's actually a lot of resentment stuck in me, because I continously feel like I'm not good enough and keep draining myself emotionally. People confuse the remaining "selflessness" with empathy all the time though. They think it's cute and genuine, because they don't know it's stemming from a rather self absorbed, but emotionally exhausted, place. The emotional exhaustion kills the empathy and therefore the sincerity. I do have empathy though. I can give for the sake of making someone happy and helping them out, it goes wrong when I'm stressed (emotionally drained) though, which unfortunately is at many times. To me it feels a bit like being Dobby from Harry Potter. Difference is that the curse of slavery is kept alive by lack of healthy narcissism. Anyways, great video as always Dr. Fox. I keep learning from your channel, which is awesome. I'm not sure about whether I truly got the meaning of echoism right like this though, but if not it's because I'm a little tired in the evening. 😅🤭 The video was super clear though.

Thank you. This video helped me to better understand my behavior in my marriage. My ex never valued me. I was always told things were my fault and my thoughts and opinions were invalid. Now I understand how my dysfunctional childhood family relationships made this awful dynamic so tolerable.

Thank you for your videos, Dr. Fox 😊

It reminds me of someone who suppresses anger, which can enrage as health problems or can eventually explode as an earthquake or volcano.

Thank you, I had never heard of this before, and it fits to a tee in every aspect of my life. Your videos are a huge help in my life. Thank u again.

Thanks for your videos! I can see this in my behaviour quite strong. Have a BPD diagnosis as well. Most of the time, it´s very difficult to hang with people for me because it is exhausting to contain my own wishes and thoughts and always be aware for the others. I hope I can handle that in future. Feels like a very strong and unconscious behaviour.

My step-son is so adequately described here, being the resultant personality trait of being reared by his covertly narcissistic father who is currently, but possibly not going to remain my husband. Dr. Fox, thanks so much for this uniquely insightful video. God bless us all.

I had no idea it has a name! Thank you, it's very informative as usual 👏💡 I have BPD and my mother has narcissistic traits, she projected and still does a lot on me and I can make a link with my education and my lack of consistency, sense of identity. It's extremely hard for me to put boundaries with my mother because of the abandonment/rejection triggers, I'm trying but it's not enough.

Wow I love you for making this video. My husband always says I'm the narcissist, because I do have BPD and have some narcissistic trates. However, I dont do things for the reason he does. I don't have a need to put myself first always and I don't think I'm better then anyone. This video hits home cause I was just telling him the other day, I am an echo dear, what ever you put into me, I reflect back to you. I usually give him his way unless it's very important but then I not only feel bad but he demonizes me as well for holding any boundaries at all. He is permitted to demand anything and disrespect everyone and everything, while what I say have little or no value at all and is almost always dismissed no matter who it means to me, or how important I feel it is. Makes me so sad and angry too, but it don't ever really matter, and so I have grown to hate him to a large extent, which makes me feel terrible because I don't want to hate anyone really and I don't ask for my way much, anyways thanks the video made me feel a little less alone and invalid in this world.

I always think everyone else is better than me, but so many people tell me they were intimidated by me before they got to know me, and realized I think so little of myself.

After about 3 weeks there, I finally realized I wasn't going anywhere, so why not try to start somewhere. So I told my psychiatrist EVERYTHING I've experienced. Wether it meant I would never be released, it was time I gave the Dr and myself a chance by opening up and being honest. I shared my hallucinations from childhood though... I shared killing small animals when I was a kid. I shared how my family was Pentecostal and Southern Baptist and convinced me when I was 7 and had written my mom a letter that I was scared. Scared of the man I can't see but is always behind me. And whichever way I turn, he moves so I can't see him. I told them he never touches me...just kinda hangs out around and above me...but he won't leave. And he doesn't speak. But I can feel it...and it feels like he something bad to happen. They all told me I needed to pray more... demons can move in if you don't have enough Jesus. So I prayed...and faked speaking in tonguea...legitimately hallucinated Jesus' hands praying with me. Those things seemed to make my mother happy another church considered the demons gone....but it was all still there...that and worse. But I learned either they were right and I was not good enough for God and/or you just don't talk about those kinds of things. So I didn't. I told the Dr how I don't really know what love is...especially not romantic. That I care for people. I dhavr often fantasized about murder, but I didn't think it same to think of it as to do it. I would never hurt someone else..even if they deserved it, because who am I to decide who should live or die? I am no one to cast judgement or fate because I am literally no one.

Great video. I relate very much to this. I like the plate too!

Thanks for your educational videos, Dr. F.!

Wow, what a great explanation. I have so much resentment and it's hard to manage.

Wow.... this changes everything i painfully struggled to come to terms with.....

Oftentimes, avoiding relationship disruption is an expression of control issues. Someone with these issues would rather be walked all over like a welcome mat than ask for their needs to be met and give the other person the choice to deny them.

A great and insightful video. I am always looking forward to seeing your videos. I read all ur books as well :) please share with us more book recommendations 👍👍👍👍👍👍

Great! We need more like that!

This is fascinating. I definitely relate to this a lot. I have tried as best I can to combat that on my own, and now through therapy i think my lack of a sense of self and prioritizing others to feel okay is a bigger problem than I used to believe.

This looks information is life changing!

this is really helpful - I think accurately identifying my problem is helpful in itself. It will mean fighting against myself a little maybe but maybe that part of the "self" that I would be fighting against is not wholly me!

Again you are outlining my past relationships.

Very insightful. Thank you.

I wonder if codependence is an extreme of echoism or if echoism leads to codependence. Certainly it seems codependents must have echoism as a trait.

Thanks for this Dr Fox. I'd become aware that I can be quite passive in relationships and realized that i find it hard to express my needs. Not only on a psycho emotional level but practically as well. Like if youre not taught a certain language it is hard to speak it even though you are aware of the way not being able to speak it is affecting you and your relationships. For this reason I believe I have ended up with men who lean more toward the narcissistic end of the personality spectrum. Knowing this now makes me very apprehensive and fearful when I meet men and it's hard for me to gauge their narcissistic barometer. My needs were never really met as a youngster so i dont expect anyone to ever meet them now as an adult but I'm working on becoming more assertive at the very least for now in all my relationships.

This was super insightful. Thank you 🙏

Omgosh...i become so obsessive regarding metamorphosing myself into my partner. I learn their culture, there language and study everything that have to do w/ the person, while they do little to nothing to learn about me. It’s so weird. And sad honestly. I give up so much of myself hoping to feel wanted. But it’s never enough. I’m never satisfied and eventually grow resentful. And blow up...then the cycle continues

This is me to a T. I've never heard of echosim though. My NPD partner I feel has groomed me in a way to behave this way. it keeps his demons at bay. I woke up one day and said enough is enough, started putting boundaries in place and going to CODA meetings. The Narc didn't like that one bit and then started controlling, tracking me, etc. it was horrible.

You are an effective communicator I love your videos, therapy is the best thing that has have ever happened to me, I realized I used to have poor boundaries which attracted abusers. It is also healthier to notice my own unhealthy narcissism. Thank you.

This video is so helpful. More than I can express.

What is the distinction between echoism and codependency?

Thank you Dr. Fox, I hope you are having a good holiday season so far :^)

Finally I can put a word to a description of my behavior. I’ve never heard this term, I only knew that I wasn’t narcissistic and I have been surrounded by narcissistic people in my life. I was raised by an abusive narcissistic mother and married a narcissistic man. I was in that relationship for 12 years and had a daughter who is now 19. I only wish I would have known about PTSD, BPD and how being raised by a narcissistic parent affected me. I’m really enjoying your videos and am looking forward to my daughter beginning therapy for BPD and myself beginning EMDR.

Hi Daniel ! I have watched your videos for a while now and you are so helpful and guiding to better insight, thank you so much for that. I am in the progress of getting my BPD diagnosis and the help I need. I have bought your book and started working with it - it helps me so much. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about emotional permanence? It is being talked a lot about on Tik Tok by people with the diagnosis of BPD, but I would really appreciate an explanation/insight from you :)

I found you channel because I suspect I have BPD and had never heard of echoism. There was only thing in the video I Didn’t relate to. Shocked 😮 me to tears. 😅 It’s wild that the things I go through all have names.

I have this Dr. Fox! I love that plate :’)

repeat this until you are exhausted. i am smart i am beautiful i am amazing. you may even cry. and its okay. just do it until you are worn out and cant speak or talk anymore. i find it helpful. i dont know if this is recommended by psychologists. has anyone been recommended this before ?

Ahhhhhhh wow ⚡️⚡️⚡️ perfect timing in my understanding and healing

How weird. I have been pondering exactly these things in my current relationship issues. I put it int the same wording, talking about needs AND desires. Because often, people will only tend to the needs - or at at least what they THINK you need. Then I wrote a poem called Living life from the passenger seat ... It's funny getting the validation of my own thoughts expressed here afterwards, rather than me listening to you first.

Very helpful, thank you so much 🙏🏻

Thank you so much for your videos.

That’s Me Daniel Absolutely

Thank you for tqking time to make videos i have NpD

this is something I need to work on

Great content! I was an Echoist through out my childhood and early adulthood. Thanks to years of therapy and a lot of internal work- i am much better at acknowledging my needs and 85% of the time attending to them before someone else’s. . Some of the very painful aspects of having two parents w/NPD have reared their unbelievably ugly heads in the past few years- but having found my voice and having learned to be okay with “me” - Ive become the nightmare daughter Im sure. In my situations it would likely be best to go no contact w/ both of them- but for now its just not possible.

Straight up... This is an issue I've had with people I've let become close friends of mine (and one of them as a significant other for a time). I'm way too passive and always just go along with whatever, and very often do things I don't actually want to do because arguments are prone to start over it if I don't wanna do x, y or z. I've been coming to realize a lot of my issues over the last year in particular in this regard and am pretty much looking to stop letting other people dictate my time. It sucks, because I care about people, and do often feel like my own needs aren't important and feel selfish if I don't do what other people want. I personally dealt with an abusive mother and step father who I'm convinced are both narcissists, my step father in particular taking pleasure in being a bully over a father figure (Until I stood up to him later on). But it's left me disjointed from all of my family, including my real father because my mother tore me away from everyone in her own twisted self serving world view. I think in some weird way, this has translated into the kinds of friends I keep, or rather, how I let my friends overstep my boundaries, more so because I don't say anything most of the time. But in a few cases, I've had arguments over it, and I'm prone to feeling guilty. I know this might seem a bit dramatic to say, and it don't entirely fit the context. I feel like there's the Sword of Damocles over my head, the guilt, ready to drop as soon as I do something "selfish." I'd been convincing myself to be happy and feel fortunate to have what I have (and still am in many cases) but there are other areas that I'm simply not when it comes to my interactions with some of my friends (with narcissistic traits) that are more controlling. I think it also comes from a fear of loosing friends. Like the sword will drop as soon as I mess up and I might be left with nothing. I'm just kinda at the point where I can't let that guilt have any power over me anymore. I still wanna be there for people, but lines need to be drawn. I really do feel like this echoistic trait was beat into me as a kid and in my 30s now, and finally realizing it. Been watching a few of your vids because by random chance I ran into the subject on youtube, at a time I'm questioning myself and the friendships I maintain. Kinda cosmic in a way. But it's given me a lot of insight. Sorry for the TL; DR. This video in particular hit me in a very significant way though. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I definitely have extreme echoism but I am not really sure where it came from? My mom is a really supportive, caring, sacrificing person. Maybe my dad? Hmm. Could romantic relationships also affect this?

Thanks so much for your videos!!! Helps me a lot with my life.

Hello Doctor, your videos have helped me understand myself. Maybe you could talk about the need of acceptance a bit more and how to stop yourself from spiralling when you feel like people are slipping through your fingers? It's something I've been talking about with my friends a lot lately

I thought it would be codependency. Thank you for this video. Think I have these traits because I become invisible when in a relationship, or with friends. I believe my thoughts and needs don’t matter and have no value. I am in therapy and am facing up to many other traits I have based on a belief that somehow I don’t matter. Love your videos they are helping me become more aware and present.

Thank you so much.

Things happened slowly but fast. The more I tried to tell myself there's no way they'll go through with this, my patience/fear became paralyzing procrastination. I'm not really sure what I could have done but what I untimately did was overdose on multiple medications I'm my sister's yard while they were sleeping. Hoping not to wake them, with my body gone in the morning. I woke up to my family surrounding me(red flag right there) and immediately recognized the lady with the clipboard as a me tal health professional. I tried to play it off. That I was drunk and probably took to many or not the right ones. No way I overdosed I'm sure I spilled a bunch in my drunken stupor.. but then saw the officer waiting just outside the curtain. They counted. Every single one they found. My little sister was worried about me walking the two blocks home from the bat so had set an alarm to check on me...when her husband saw me unconscious in the yard, covered in puke and foam... as well as feces and urine. The ambulance started CPR and said I immediately expelled even more stomach contents. My sister hadn't thought CPR was an option. They thought that body they found was dead. So I suck at taking my own life as well... this was my 3rd attempt...though first anyone knew of. I was sectioned and went to a PETC. At first, I didn't want to participate. I didn't like the broad topic AA style "therapy sessions" they had. So I would bring up childhood sexual trauma and other , I felt as I took inventory of the other patients atound the table, very important and very relevant topics. We were always shut down. I guess that mail in training certificate doesn't really prepare a lot of group counselors (or whatever) for real life shit.

Dr. Fox I would also would love to thank you on your videos and recommending those 3 reads on How to care for BDP, Stop walking on Eggshells and there was one more, I wish I would of know about all off this before or earlier. Thank you and on your behalf we are all at the end of humans. Thank you again

Hello Dr. Fox 😊

interesting video ✅

Whoa. How did you just describe so many of my traits…insane

Echoism.you can also go the opposite way. My father was an f60.81 and i became a psychotherapist. When i see entitlement in those i don't treat- i say i don't know if you will get what you want because i have to think it over. Can't please everyone; especially those with cognitive distortions. Dr. Malkin verbalized he had echoism.

I relate to this so much, raised with a narcissistic father who told me if I didn’t live exactly like Jesus, then I was the devil. I grew up believing all of my feelings were wrong. I no longer have a relationship with my father as it it is my choice to do so as I was working on some inner strengths and meditations and just really establishing my BPD toolbox. I had to really learn to let that relationship go and accept that it was OK to not be OK. Now my father is trying to take my children from me and I feel like I don’t have much time left I’ve already been fighting a year and a half by myself and I don’t know how much more I have in me. Any advice helps….

Building up resentment is so true. I got burned out on always pushing healthy narcissism at my partners critical second guessing. So I just started echoing. Literally making the statement "I don't have the energy anymore to keep standing up for myself and your critical worry all the time when it comes to basic low stakes decision making" They weren't mean I just got exhausted. I also grew up in the church where there is allot of this. "you to what you you feel called to...but don't pull away from the tribe." kind of constant double speak.

Doc with your permission I will share my experience hopefully will be helpful, I just got out of very toxic relationship with the Narcisitic and BPD traits. IT was a very long and panful path to get to this point and hopefully me describing what helped me will help some other readers some might work better for some: 1. Right away get proffesional support to help as there is learning curve. 2. Narcisist, BPD, and similar personality traits I call it either as a flu of emotional/congnitive growth flu (we can be healthy yeaayy) 3. Most of the above psychological flues are the result of a child hood travma that lead me for instance to a specific way of leaving and adopting in this world. (this was learned which means it can be unlearned with better ways) 4. Meditation especially on Forveness (got to get to the point of accepting yourself and your life) 5. when we know that Iron is hot we don't touch it so when we know what is hurting us behavior or thought process wise we need to unplug that just like we would with an iron but will need help of a proffessional 6. deal with the trauma (gelshtat therapy) get to the acceptance point no reason to feel guilty and those things are not happening now and if anyone in your life is still doing it to you (like it was with my wife or how it is with my mom) keep the communication to the minimum others except family members and if they are unmanageable its up to you but anyone that is toxic to you you have the right to deal the same way as you would with spoiled food or dirty cloth (hope none of you likes to eat spoiled food or putting dirty cloth on for days in the row) our mental body deserves the same and our emotional deserves to have good healthy food and clean beautifull cloth 7.Assertiveness 8. Cognitive therapy the idea is to grow that scared lost child with in us I call myslef reversed narcisist with in us that just wants a hug, being accepted and noticed. we want nurturing love and we deserve it and we need to learn to give it in the healthy way so we can accept it and experience it. Lead by example I own my traits I am a Narcisist but I became a healthy one, 9. I love my inner child and I hate that the way society works its harder and harder to allow our selves to leave that amazing beautifull childish happiness without all the damn baggage that we end up accumulating over the course of life 10. Gratitude 11. One of the practices so far that also helped was what would I reccomend to my friend, brother or a child if they would end up in my shoes, this way is really hard to yourself if you want answers and tired of where you are as I am 12. it took me 4 years of pain, sufferring and lots of money and hours on therapy and yes they helped but all the work was done by me and my motivation and drive no one else will leave your life for you and I am looking forward listening to the book that the doctor is reffering to. There is a Russian book that I listened to which I find it amazing, I am going to make sure if its not in the process yet to get that book translated into English We are alive smile we have dealt with many obstacles in our lives and got so far and this one is no different from any other just a bit well it is what it is Just do It or life will pass and then it will be to late.

I appreciate you

Literally Me🧚🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️

hey dr. fox! can you please make a video about neglectful narcissists? I was raised by a really detached narcissist and almost every common description of narcissists doesn‘t suit to my experiences therefore. I think it would help so much if you would shed light onto this topic because I bet many other people been abused by people like them and I think this would help so much to make us feel seen. Please like this comment if you think you would like to see this, too.

Yup, I likely had that… mine gradually reduced over the years with tough life experiences + reading lots of motivational and self-help books. I’ve read (listened to) between 50-100 books since the pandemic started… reading has changed my life in a way I could not have imagined before. I feel incredible empowered now. Still kind, but super authentic. Worthy resources to explore: “Sounds true” (interviews/ YT) “Bill Eddy” (his books are worth Gold) “Judith Orloff” (on Empath stuff) “Judith Eger” (On healing) For more recommendations… just befriend Oprah Winfrey’s books and supersoulsunday interviews.

Part 2 of comment: So what if I was sad, or scared, or even happy? I felt it was most important to tend to those around me, even strangers....and I became so highly empathetic and "motherly" towards others. I really have felt I have made some real difference for some. I can't tell you the random strangers in grocery stores, passing pedestrians, or casual coworkers and things of that sort that saw whatever it was "radiating" from me, and felt they could offload, share, or find someone that made them feel safe to be heard (Even it being me, usually a complete stranger). It used to seem odd for people to share those things with me. But soon I felt I could try and provide anyone who trusted themselves with me, what I felt I never had. Someone who would listen. Provide comfort, support... never false hope... but always threw in truths about my past that would let them know their trust was not wasted. I did care. I do. And would always let them know that I didn't have real insight or advice on their specific struggle, that I did know that I wished I had been able to share like they had...and to at least be free to express myself and feelings...and maybe someone would have heard and let me know that there is help out there...and even people who care. At 17 I got pregnant. Quite unexpectedly. I was very promiscuous and not safe since 14 (well...the voluntary part) and was told repeated infection and scarring would probably make fertility near impossible. But I never thought wanted children. Never thought I would have those instincts...and definitely didn't want to bring a life into this world to most likely (in my kind) experience anything like had. But I was over four months and...not that I was angry about becoming a mom...but more fearful, even more negative thoughts about myself or my capabilities. Dread my child would die AT ANY MOMENT. Or worse, even my best attempts to keep them safe would fail. How would I live with that?? Not about me...but having this life I'm responsible for, and failing him. I was SUPER overprotective, constantly fearful, and very clingy. I made my whole life about protecting, loving, and raising a child who felt protected, safe, tended to, and happy. He slept on my chest until over a year old. I was afraid he would die in his sleep. But on my cheat, I could feel his heartbeat abd feel his breath. He didn't walk until 15 months, speak more than 3 words until about 5th birthday. I think there were some genuine developmental delays. But his therapists told me when he started speaking full sentences in one day, that their hunch was the majority of his delays were really just a lack of motivation. Why was if your mother never puts you down. Why speak when your needs, wants, and a lot of things you didn't know you wanted were premeditated for you? Things got bette. But I didn't loosen my grip. He slept with me most nights until 10yo (his younger brother until about 8yo). You get the picture. Then, after my last divorce and third child, I decided to try to loosen my grip. Let them spend the whole summer with respective dads and grandparents... not make follow all of my overbearing restrictions. In my mind, I needed to start working on my trust issues with the world. Let these people who love my kids be there too. Push myself to trust SOME people. I graduated college and was working in the medical field. And I started seeing that I was a person too. I was 25 at this point and I don't think I ever shared with anyone, anytjme...what my feelings were. No one can remember me crying or being angry..really...no emotions, since I was a kid. They all said I was either happy (smiling) all of the time.. or just staring into nothing with a blank nowhere look on my face. I never believed I should bother anyone with "me". They were always more important. I mean.. I thought about suicide every day. But thought that's just how things are...and I had made it this far. Who know if they could, so I would never burden anyone with my feelings (If I even knew what they were). But when I was divorced the third time, was allowing other people I thought I should trust help raise and love my kids, I started trying to enjoy my weekends. Find myself a little bit. Find out who I could be if I'm not just a mom, or wife...or nothing of consequence like I felt inside. I never neglected my kids, or financial responsibilities. There as no drug addiction or severe alcoholism. Though I will say during my weekends and such without the kids I see now my alcohol intake was very dangerous..to my body and my safety out in public). I had my professional job, but started working for Gold Cup and Penthouse clubs every other weekend. Ended up there with a friend who had no idea I had never been to. Place like that. I was incited to dance on stage (clothed) and I found myself watching myself in the mirror. Foe the first time, not disgusted or judging what I saw...not even concerned with what any man was thinking. I found real confidence outside of sexual contact/abuse, pr my identity as a mother/wife. I probably scared a lot of people. Going from this super uptight, paranoid, overly attentive parent.. to honestly, kins d of a normal person. And though I can appreciate peoples concerns, especially with children involved, with such a drastic and seemingly sporadic personality change... their real motivations were never to ensure the safety of my boys. They could have just talked to me,voiced their concerns. We could have found some understanding, compromise, or maybe I would have even agreed and calmed the fuck down. Instead. My kids first full summer visit with them was virtually the last time I would see them. At first I thought, it will a buff out, they'll realize the gossip between themselves doesn't represent our home life and I would never had been angry for then ensuring those children are being cared for with every beat of my heart. Then a month goes by...and I start getting served.. one by one .. to keep them from me... COMPLETELY. I hadn't gotten any real treatment in my life at that point. But they were all aware that dealt with very disturbing visual hallucinations from about 7 years old until about 14. They also knew, that after the birth od my first I had been experiencing more and more paranoia and auditory hallucinations were pretty frequent though usually pretty benign.. like conversations I can't really make out clearly.... or hearing a familiar tv program on when I didn't even have cable. I also heard the children a lot, but chocked it up to being a mom always listening out for your kids. My last husband was the one that took these things I shared with him, and why...idk... but though it was a great resource to prank me. So he put a voice changer under my pillow one night. As I lay there...for the first time, this voice was clear..clearly speaking to me..and I knew I may not be safe to be around my kids anymore. So I run into the bathroom where he was...balling hysterically though the sound was so hard to make. I just said, "please take me to the hospital right, RIGHT NOW. something is very wrong. I am very wrong. The voices are real now... and talking TO ME. I can't be around the kids, it's not safe" and I collapsed in tears and anguish...wondering if I would lose myself/my mind completely before I could even take my own life... to keep them safe. And this monster is laughing, saying, "it's okay baby. It was just me. Just a joke". I hadn't even comprehended these words when he comes back in with the little walkie talkie type thing and demonstrates. I was broken. And still so unsure. How, why...weren't even questions yet. Neither relief. I was engrossed in this very real known this could happen ..for real though..or worse...at any time. So when he said he's been insisting I get medicated anyway, I guess I just thought, I hope it's enough. My diagnosis for years were always kind of idk...I don't want to say generic. I was treated by the local MHMR(state run service for those who don't know) they're only allowed to treat 4 diagnosis besides mental retardation. The psychiatric side treats schizophrenia, major depressive, bipolar disorder, and schizoaffective disorders. I was diagnosed with the latter 3 and there is no real therapy given, or even help understanding/coping with symptoms, etc. Just meds. A d the doctors rotate every time. I never felt comfortable dispelling everything I've been dealing with...not to mention all of the hours I spent crying the bathroom because of an ill phrased comment/question that I completely took to that place "far, far away" . The first one was , "so...what is your point ?" As I'm rambling quickly through what I'm condensing into our 10 min appt I think most relevent...and of course some tangents. After I was convinced to stop crying and unlock the bathroom door about 2 hours later...by a nurse I called from a different clinic.. I told the man interviewing me that that question or statement made feel like I was invalidated, that he didn't care to even hear my symptoms from me, and this wasn't the safe I was told it should be (what the nurse helped me say). He apologized and said it was merely to find out if rapid cycling bipolar was the true fit..but he was considering ADD as well. And knowing if I circle back eventually to the main topic was important for the diagnosis. I cried again and told him to please find a different way to phrase that to other patients. That fragile and fearful peoples ..well.. that's a lot to hear for them.

Thank you Dr. Fox, I have started doing your BPD workbook and am dating so with NPD traits or covert narcissism. Could we heal together? If so how?

You described my mother

Anyway, I take the meds. Things aren't really changing too much but I am graduating from college then, I am realizing the abuse in this relationship (I once mistook for love because control and intimidation were what my father modeled to me as love) and I decided I wasn't raising my kids in that toxicity. I know from experience, even those best at hiding the violence and emotional battery from the children...you can't. They know. And it's just as damaging. Driven by ego and revenge, my ex decided to come for my kids. He rallied the other two families and they jumped at the chance.

I’m so done w self blame. Needed this vide o💖answers:yes, yes, no

Oh wow, I needed to hear this. Is there any hope for those who experience this "echoism"?

Truly interesting I’m wondering if couples can work in tandem thinking that “they” are in the echo and not getting needs met at the expense of the other and miss their overly narcissistic qualities? In other words it shifts back and forth with either being the lacking one and then taking over in other ways

Damn, that's all I can say. Nail meet hammer. OMG this is like the most accurate version of me and I didn't even know that it existed until now. This is something that I will have to read up on.

Dr. Fox, have you heard of Human Design? I am so curious to hear your take on how it affects those of us with personality disorders! I was diagnosed with BPD, but after discovering Human Design, I'm wondering if I don't have a disorder and it's just the way I'm designed...

hey dr.daniel fox what is the difference between covert narcissism and echoism can you please do a video on this

I think I have developed this from living with my BPD gf, .... low now, but was very confident before meeting her

Your describing my life

I still don't quite understand this concept when applied to reality. In my experience, since I were a child, my feelings have been invalidated by my parents, friends and other family members with the "you can't be sad or angry or feel frustrated because that makes you childish or ungrateful because many other people are having a more difficult time than you". So I learned to conceal everything I was feeling, repeating to myself, "I can't feel bad, I have to always smile and be optimistic because there are others out there suffering more than me,my feelings are childish, stupid and irrelevant, I should rather help the others who are suffering more instead". So I don't like it when people are compassionate towards me as when I feel down or complain, I feel like I'm doing something selfish or I'm making myself a victim which I so dislike. Is this echoism or am I just too immature?? How do you know the difference?

Whoaaaaa didn’t know this was the word for it

I told him I love my kids.....but I don't...how do I put it...I know they are safe and loved. I feel guilt and anger with myself, and fear for what damage they've suffered because of being born to me and any choices I made as well... and I think of them sometime without it being those obsessive, intrusive thoughts. BUT, I don't "miss" people. I don't feel connections to them like I think true emotions are supposed to feel like. I've never been like "lonely" or thinking about anyone so much I really want to see them. I mean, it's fine to be around peopls...but I am very content alone. I was so afraid with all of this that he would tell me I am a hopeless psychopath destined yo become a horrible murderer if not kept from the public. We eent through some more background and other details of my experiences. And he says those three letters to me "BPD". Looking at the DSM4 at the time, it looked bleak, and seemed to highlight all of my emotional and attachment defects I'm such a terrible light. Like I simply don't care about/can't love anyone. And that this emotional free for all I'm in constantly, had no escape. But. I felt good that at least I did my part and laid it out. Let somebody in. This was a time before any real treatment was available that could confidently offer hope of true remission/cures/or even a realistic prognosis of functionality. Especially with my extreme case. But he asked me to trust him with the medication a nd my treatment needs. And to trust myself and the mental health staff to explore these traumas that would have significant impact on anyone, but are definitely significant in my disorder progression and ultimately, my possible recovery...whatever that meant. So I did... and besides medical professionals that had made me cry a few times, my first honest tears...that were FOR ME, a real release and self empathetic, was during a yoga class.... when we were left with our thoughts and told to be mindful. Let your feelings and thoughts come feel those feelings..acknowledge them...and then release them....free them. It's funny now but I just started free crying. Maybe I released too much that day, or maybe there are just feelings and tears that the body can't absorb or recycle. After not really having emotions for so long, well... that session started a new phase. My tears came freely and often. It was a good thing, but if course now I'm on the other side of unhealthy emotion. Dysregulation. It was suggested I go to a long term care facility to really get the treatment I needed, but I had heard of "Rusk" before and was under the impression that if you enter those doors, you don't get out. So I begged, pleaded, really committed to the work, and made the case that with this custody stuff, I can't continue to have my family lie to everyone that I'm in the hospital foe my kidney. It had been nearly 6 weeks. I got the Dr's blessing and was released. I saw my eldest son a couple of times after that. You could see the animosity and what I saw as feelings of abandonment cloaking his sweet face. He was 12 now. So I told him the truth of where I had been. Told him that it's okay to not be okay. But if you're ever scared, or have feelings, thoughts, or anything that makes you want to hurt yourself, others, keeps you from doing things or you're just not sure other people have those feelings to. ANYTHING. That he deserves whatever life he wants, and to be happy, free of fear anything else. That there is help out there, and he or his brother, friends...anyone who needs help or to talk... to know things can be better, and to share with someone. Because had I had someone to talk to, someone to help with my thoughts and feelings, I know some things would be better. And don't wait until he's my age and you've been conditioned to be embarrassed or even accept this is how things are.... because you are somebody. You are valuable. You matter. A little later he was preoccupied wanting to call his dad for the 5th rims that hour. I asked if the phone could be put away for just like an hour or so...we could play basketball, anything. He told me he was calling his dad and didn't want to be there, and it wasn't Ike I cared. I was still really struggling with emotional disregulation and I didn't want him to see me cry...so I went into the next room. My sister preceeded to tell him how much I love him and how could he think otherwise as I'm balling in the bathroom. He stated, "she's not crying. How can she love me if she doesn't have any emotion? Like a robot" My heart sank as I realized my flawed pattern of thought had led my child to believe I didn't really have emotions. Of course I cuddled them, kissed them, said "I love you" constantly. But I never let them see me cry. Or angry. Or stressed. Or anything other than smiles or blank affect when not engaging with them. In my mind, children didn't need to bear witness to my hardships or problems. They weren't supposed to have any burden of adult things...like sadness, stress, financial worry, or that Mommy was anything other than happy and loved them and they were provided for without question. I know now that not only so they need to know you're a real person too. But if you don't model how to express emotions or needs, how will they know what they're feeling or how to convey it? And if you aren't taught good coping skills and learn from example of how to express extreme or volatile emotions/situations in a productive and effective way.. .well.. you end up with raging assholes and people breaking down over easily solved or remedied problems. It wasn't long after he stopped speaking to me as well. I was not very well for quite a while. Jails, other psychiatric treatment centers, suicide attempts, and finally decided to not further damage them or cause disruption by causing my own death. I decided to step away peacefully. I wanted my kids to have the happiest, most normal, most secure childhoods they could. I am lucky in the fact I know who they are with...all well cared for, definitely loved, and have lots of opportunities. I still sent Xmas, birthday, gifts just because and cards...but to my knowledge they weren't given to them. I am ready to accept full responsibility for not being present in those years of their life. I hope they have the support to come though all of this with as healthy a mind and soul as possible. I will apologize to them each for the abandonment they must have felt. I will explain what I can should they want to know why I didn't fight in court. I knew I wouldn't win...and even if I did...how many years would court cases and uncertainty be their whole life?? That's no life for them. And it hurts that I can't divulge everything. I can't tell them them the lies and tactics these people used to get them. Or that my presence and communications/gifts were withheld from them. I am not blameless in all of this, and I will gladly (with a heavy heart) be the "bad guy" if necessary. I will never take away their sense of security, safety, and trust for their families that they love and have been raising them. Itt would be true, but would serve no other purpose than to create emotional distress and possibly be the catalyst for their own mental health crisis. As for my own mental health journey. I have a long way to go, and though right now my hallucinations are minimal, and my suicidal ideation is more of comfortability with death should it come than an active thought self inflicted, I have definitely become much more aware of how I impact others and make an effort to be mindful...I will say most of my ability to mostly function on a daily basis is controlling my environment. I live alone, probably leave foe for a Dr's appt or grocery 2 times a month, and about 3-4 days a month with my you youngest son and/or neices/nephews. I do hope I'm not adding agoraphobia to my list. But I am trying to find an inpatient ECT treatment center. I would Iike to participate in that modality and keep oral medication (especially the 1200mg seroquel and 1800mg lithium I just stopped taking because of kidney cysts and dysfunction) off of the table if I can. My story may not be the kind people find inspiring...but I came away with this thought, and I feel it changed(s) my life. "Things may not ever be great, but I promise you...they can get better. So much better." Keep on keepin' on!

I guess i need to work on being the driver more.

Hello, Dr.Fox, I was diagnosed with bipolar 2 five years ago, and B.P.D. one year later. My question about Echoism is : is it possible that a same sex parent who is the primary caregiver but NOT a narcissist can contribute to echoism? I am an introvert, my same sex parent is an extrovert with a very healthy sense of self. However, she also believes that a good/nice person always allows others opinions to be foremost, and almost always defers to others. Our personalities are very dissimilar. I am like my opposite sex parent but where I grew up I was expected to be like my same sex parent. I do not believe I was raised by a narcissist, but was so aware that I was not like I was "supposed"to be that it helped contribute to my feelings of worthlessness and lack of sense of self. In every intimate partnership I have had, from as early as dating in my teens, I have always tried to be what I thought the other person wanted.I see valuing myself or my needs or wants as demanding and overbearing. I could go on and on about the many turns and twists if my classic BPD. I really enjoy your videos. I don't have access to regular therapy. Neither do I have family I can talk to, or friends I want to bother with my issues so thank you for providing a bit of calm in the neverending storm that is my world.

Dr. Fox I would appreciate a phone session or consult with you regarding a family member that is quite critical. I will look on your web site...

I'm grateful dr fox thanx for real💖